Which song was first, Surf's Up... or Heroes and Villains

[Jameswilliam]

I just noticed in the beautful dreamer dvd that van dyke said heroes and villains was first... but in the american band dvd he says "Surfs up was the first song that brian and i wrote for the SMiLE album"... And i was say when i read Brians autobiography, i think surf's up was first in there... anyone know exactly?

[The Radiant Radish]

VDP stated in the UNCUT podcast from May 2011 that Heroes & Villains was the first song they wrote together for SMiLE. So make of that what you will.

[letsmakeit31]

I always believed that "Heroes & Villains" came first because (Or so I read years ago??) A lot of other songs such as "Wonderful", "Do you like worms" "Child is father to the man" where drawn from the same chords as "Heroes & Villains" I'm most certainly wrong so please someone correct me 

[Matt Bielewicz]

Session records can often be an unreliable resource to go by, but the first H&V session was held on May 11th, 1966 (and supposedly later taped over). Surf's Up didn't hit tape until November that year. So if Surf's Up *was* written first, it lay unrecorded for many months. Given Brian's "I have an idea, let's do it!!!!" attitude of the time, this seems unlikely, although not impossible.

Plus over all the years I've been following this stuff, Brian and VDP have said that H&V came first many times in interviews. I can only think of the one source for Surf's Up having been first. Admittedly, that was VDP again, in that clip (and THAT HAT) in front of Tower Records, but you can forgive him for getting it wrong once. Many times since, he's said it was H&V first.

I'd say the balance of probabilities is: H&V first, Surf's Up later in '66.

[Micha]

I always believed that "Heroes & Villains" came first because (Or so I read years ago??) A lot of other songs such as "Wonderful", "Do you like worms" "Child is father to the man" where drawn from the same chords as "Heroes & Villains" I'm most certainly wrong so please someone correct me 

Well, with all due respect, you are right that you are wrong about the other songs being "drawn from the same chords as H&V". Both H&V and Wonderful start with C#, but so does Help Me, Rhonda, and that chord is used in neither DYLW nor CIFOTM.

[letsmakeit31]

Thanks Micha. I think I was thinking of the "Bicycle Rider" music box riff. Which of course was in H&V and DYLW but also using same notes?? In wonderful & Child too???

[hypehat]

Bicycle Rider is in Gm, so no. The H&V version of the riff is in Eb, and we know that fits.

Child is in some hinterland key between F#, E, D, B, and A (Going by the sections we know and love) so no, and Wonderful is in C# to start but otherwise bears no relation to H&V. The only relation they bear with each other is arpeggiated chords, but the actual chords are a lot different so I think that's just a coincidence.

[linusoli]

Bicycle Rider is in Gm, so no. The H&V version of the riff is in Eb, and we know that fits.

Child is in some hinterland key between F#, E, D, B, and A (Going by the sections we know and love) so no, and Wonderful is in C# to start but otherwise bears no relation to H&V. The only relation they bear with each other is arpeggiated chords, but the actual chords are a lot different so I think that's just a coincidence.

I usually just lurk here, so excuse my butt in, but this is just absurdly pedantic, no? He's talking about melodic and harmonic links (which do exist,) not the root key of each song.

[letsmakeit31]

I wish I was as well trained in music as you guys. Thank you so much for the detail info. All I can say is that the music of the Beach Boys esp Brian Wilson moves me deeply in my soul I would love to play Bicycle Rider riff on the piano I'm slowly learning to play. I feel that if I know how to play the Bicycle riff then I could work out how to play other great Smile pieces

[Micha]

Bicycle Rider is in Gm, so no. The H&V version of the riff is in Eb, and we know that fits.

Child is in some hinterland key between F#, E, D, B, and A (Going by the sections we know and love) so no, and Wonderful is in C# to start but otherwise bears no relation to H&V. The only relation they bear with each other is arpeggiated chords, but the actual chords are a lot different so I think that's just a coincidence.

I usually just lurk here, so excuse my butt in, but this is just absurdly pedantic, no? He's talking about melodic and harmonic links (which do exist,) not the root key of each song.

In his first posting it looked like he meant the root key, and in his second posting he made clear he was referring to the BR theme.

But the BR theme may have been inserted into H&V after DYLW was scrapped.

[puni puni]

I wish I was as well trained in music as you guys. Thank you so much for the detail info. All I can say is that the music of the Beach Boys esp Brian Wilson moves me deeply in my soul I would love to play Bicycle Rider riff on the piano I'm slowly learning to play. I feel that if I know how to play the Bicycle riff then I could work out how to play other great Smile pieces

it's very simple, AFAIK it uses the chord pattern Gb-Bb-Db and Gb-C-Db then the melody goes like

Heeeeroes and viiiiiiiiillains juuuust seee what yooou've dooone dooone
Eb     Eb    D    Db  Bb...                                                    Ab        Ab     G     Ab    Eb

[hypehat]

Bicycle Rider is in Gm, so no. The H&V version of the riff is in Eb, and we know that fits.

Child is in some hinterland key between F#, E, D, B, and A (Going by the sections we know and love) so no, and Wonderful is in C# to start but otherwise bears no relation to H&V. The only relation they bear with each other is arpeggiated chords, but the actual chords are a lot different so I think that's just a coincidence.

I usually just lurk here, so excuse my butt in, but this is just absurdly pedantic, no? He's talking about melodic and harmonic links (which do exist,) not the root key of each song.

Hell, I don't know much about the harmonic links, but I know about the keys (well, some) of the songs, so thought I'd add my $0.02 to help clarify some things for him. Sorry if I was giving too much information....?

Micha's right - Although I don't know when the separate tracking sessions were for the Eb H&V chorus and the Gm Bicycle Rider chorus.... Where's that box? 

[Micha]

Bicycle Rider is in Gm, so no. The H&V version of the riff is in Eb, and we know that fits.

Child is in some hinterland key between F#, E, D, B, and A (Going by the sections we know and love) so no, and Wonderful is in C# to start but otherwise bears no relation to H&V. The only relation they bear with each other is arpeggiated chords, but the actual chords are a lot different so I think that's just a coincidence.

I usually just lurk here, so excuse my butt in, but this is just absurdly pedantic, no? He's talking about melodic and harmonic links (which do exist,) not the root key of each song.

Hell, I don't know much about the harmonic links, but I know about the keys (well, some) of the songs, so thought I'd add my $0.02 to help clarify some things for him. Sorry if I was giving too much information....?

Micha's right - Although I don't know when the separate tracking sessions were for the Eb H&V chorus and the Gm Bicycle Rider chorus.... Where's that box? 

Going from the released track listings and the latest "Leila revelation" - BR theme (Gm) recorded October 18 1966, H&V chorus (Eb) recorded February 27 1967 as "H&V part 2", less than a month after the cantina version had been mixed.