SPOILER!!- Heroes and Villains and Good Vibrations from TSS

[tansen]

It's like random unknown artists covering famous songs - it hardly ever works well (in my book anyway).

Kind of a sh*tty attitude to have.

imo.

It's not about attitude, it's about experience.

[puni puni]

you must have never heard Smiling Pets

[tansen]

you must have never heard Smiling Pets

I've heard it, and it's not too shabby. And you are forgetting that some of the artists on 'Smiling Pets' are quite 'famous'. Olivia Tremor Control is one of my favourite bands for instance.

[buddhahat]

Just back from holiday so a bit out of the picture, although, did check in here and there so aware that the box is finally up for preorder and that H&V and GV have 'leaked'!!!

Too lazy to read the entire thread I may be rehashing some tired material but here are my thoughts anyway, having finally been able to listen to the actual mp3s, rather than a crappy youtube version.

I love these new mixes. I was hoping that BWPS would be used as a sequence only, and that the internal structure of the songs would be more in line with what BW was doing in 66/67, but the tracks so far released that have been influenced by BWPS (H&V, GV and wonderful) are done so well that I'm game for the Purple Chick approach.

I've seen a bit of griping about the reliance on BWPS and a yearning for use of the 66 tracklist but I really don't see how else it could've been done. We should be grateful that BWPS happened at all - I think it made this Sessions release all the more feasible.

Looks like Great Shape is out of sequence which is curious. I have seen it suggested that maybe this is because some great discovery has been made that supercedes the BWPS running order, but the cynic in me suspects that Great Shape has been placed in the americana suite primarily because otherwise there would be too much instrumental music kicking off the start of side 3: Great Shape + IWBA + FN. I prefer it preceding Barnyard anyway and if they splice barnyard right out the great shape tape explosion it could be magic. Just praying that the humble harv vocals aren't flown over the great shape and barnyard tracks. You can see why they may choose to do it, given there will be so many instrumental tracks but I really don't want anything that feels too heavily edited the way those humble harv mixes always sound. Wouldn't it be incredible if barnyard and/or great shape vocals had surfaced? Any more news on the likelihood of new vocal discoveries such as these?

Having said Great Shape is in Americana suite for purely practical reasons, it looks like Old Master Painter is getting the barnshine fade (judging  by the track length) so maybe they are mixing up BWPS with some Smile historical finds. Cool that false barnyard will be represented in some form.

Mark L has done a great job with these new edits and I finally have a H&V that incorporates all my favourite bits in a seamless way. I love the fact that he used the string version of the flutter tone. Again the cynic in me wonders why he used this rather than the 'clean' version. At first I thought that the descending strings got around the key mismatch between the flutter tone's last note and start of Worms (the reason presumably that they wrote a new bridge for BWPS), but obviously the strings make no difference as the last note is still the same. Maybe the reason he used the strings is that this was the final version of the western theme flutter tone Brian cut and so is presumably the way Brian intended it - has this already been discussed? Anyone confirm this with the session dates? Maybe I'm being way too anal about the key mismatch. Is it a key mismatch? I find myself listening again and again and the transition doesn't seem as bad as I remember it.

GV with the added hum be dums is fantastic - always wanted an official mix like this.

Fears:

Humble Harv vocals over Barnyard/great shape

Gee into flutter tone sounds overly edited as it does in Purple Chick/Anne Wallace versions

Windchimes ending again overly edited to match BWPS.

Hopes:

Vocals for Barnyard

Clarinet line located for Look

H&V 2 sided single informed by some of the historical sleuthing Dom Priore was going on about.

[37!ws]

Okay, so that's at least the second time I hear a mention of the clarinet line in "Look." I've always heard it -- the melody from BWPS follows it almost exactly. Or is there a different line that I don't know about?

[Micha]

It's a bowed double bass on the track, rather than a cello.  I've always preferred the original Cantina version of H&V, the whole feel of the track works better for me and I prefer the version of the verses where Brian and Mike trade the lines.  That whole 'often wise' bit with the piano, the tape explosion and false barnyard - sublime.

I've never understood how the intro (now used for Fire) would ever work for H&V.  It just doesn't seem to fit musically.  Like how Prayer musically doesn't work, whereas Your Welcome work's perfectly, both being in the key of Db and YW seems like a perfect opener to the album bearing in mind the album cover is a shop front.

Just my 2c worth.

You can't argue over taste really, you can just state your opinions, call it "just my 2c worth" like you did. The split Brian/Mike vocals don't work for me, I prefer the vocal from the "alternate take" cantina version. But that doesn't mean I would claim "They should have done it like that on disc one!!!". Im happy with what we will get, I'm thrilled and very much looking forward to the box.

That doesn't mean I will stop using YW as the opener instead or Prayer in my own mixes...

[desmondo]

Okay, so that's at least the second time I hear a mention of the clarinet line in "Look." I've always heard it -- the melody from BWPS follows it almost exactly. Or is there a different line that I don't know about?

Are we not talking about Holidays with the clarinet line??? - there is one in that as well

[egon spengler]

Is it just my copy, or is there a bad (and unnecessary) edit in the Sunny Down Snuff section, right between Brian's last word and Mike's first? It's like a hiccup in Mike's (or the group's) breath, or the "ff" in Brian's "rough." It jumps at me every time.

[37!ws]

I dunno about an edit, but the Mrs. and I both thought we could hear Brian AND Mike take a breath at that point...

[Micha]

Is it just my copy, or is there a bad (and unnecessary) edit in the Sunny Down Snuff section, right between Brian's last word and Mike's first? It's like a hiccup in Mike's (or the group's) breath, or the "ff" in Brian's "rough." It jumps at me every time.

If the sound you mean is the one I think, then it is on the original version too. Maybe that sound is cleaner now and better audible!

[runnersdialzero]

I hear it, too. CAN NOT UNHEAR ;(

[egon spengler]

Is it just my copy, or is there a bad (and unnecessary) edit in the Sunny Down Snuff section, right between Brian's last word and Mike's first? It's like a hiccup in Mike's (or the group's) breath, or the "ff" in Brian's "rough." It jumps at me every time.

If the sound you mean is the one I think, then it is on the original version too. Maybe that sound is cleaner now and better audible!

I think we must be talking about different sounds... the one I hear is definitely an edit, not just overlapping breaths. I'm positive I don't hear it on the SS version--it's definitely smooth there. And if I had any boots, I'd be positive I don't hear it on them, either.

[runnersdialzero]

YOU'VE RUINED THE ENTIRE RELEASE FOR ME, EGON.

[egon spengler]

GOOD. If I can't have a clean edit, neither can anybody else! 

[monicker]

Is it just my copy, or is there a bad (and unnecessary) edit in the Sunny Down Snuff section, right between Brian's last word and Mike's first? It's like a hiccup in Mike's (or the group's) breath, or the "ff" in Brian's "rough." It jumps at me every time.

Nothing wrong with that part you described--just two simultaneous breaths, and it's in the original mix. I'll tell you though where there is something f*cked up: the edit going into that section (I've been in this town so long) there is a very audible clip or more like a pop. Totally unprofessional, man. And before someone says it, no, it's not on the original mix. I honestly don't get people's gushing about this mix. It seems their emotions and excitement are making that decision, not their ears, because this is one of the sloppier edits of the song i've heard. In the Cantina section, in between Brian's "spirit high" and Mike's "there i watched her," there's a very quiet "crack." The transition from the end of the last chorus into bridge to indians is too transparent, you can hear when the hiss from the bridge to indians clip kicks in. This sort of thing is SO easy to avoid working on a DAW. It sounds like Mark is not cross fading the very VERY tail end and VERY beginning of the clips of each section. Working on cut and paste music like this in the 21st century on a DAW and still not having the cleanest edits, to me is inexcusable. Sorry to say it.

EDIT: I suppose that the first two things i mentioned could be the result of an mp3 (though i don't think that's the case). If that is the case, i fully retract my criticism. Though the bridge to indians transition, as well as the la la la transition are sloppy and that has nothing to do with mp3 encoding. Regarding the la la la transition, as i said in a post many pages ago, it could be that Mark made the cut so close to the first la to avoid getting any of the organ in there. But, whatever, a cleaner edit could be made there even still.

[Roger Ryan]

...Fears:

...Windchimes ending again overly edited to match BWPS...

After the verses, the BWPS version follows the existing backing track to the first SMiLE session for this track perfectly. They might overdub some of the chorus vocals near the end, but everything else (as replicated on BWPS) was recorded in a single pass - no edits necessary, apart from the re-recorded verse section into the first chorus which was edited in the same fashion on the GV Box Set.

[buddhahat]

...Fears:

...Windchimes ending again overly edited to match BWPS...

After the verses, the BWPS version follows the existing backing track to the first SMiLE session for this track perfectly. They might overdub some of the chorus vocals near the end, but everything else (as replicated on BWPS) was recorded in a single pass - no edits necessary, apart from the re-recorded verse section into the first chorus which was edited in the same fashion on the GV Box Set.

Oh ok - thanks for this. I always thought it was slightly altered from that backing track but cool if it will be easy to replicate with existing sessions. I love the tinkling piano coda though and always missed that in BWPS. Anyone managed to glean from the track lengths how WC might be configured on disc 1?

[buddhahat]

Okay, so that's at least the second time I hear a mention of the clarinet line in "Look." I've always heard it -- the melody from BWPS follows it almost exactly. Or is there a different line that I don't know about?

Not sure what you mean - it's the main melody to song for children that they sing over a clarinet line. This melody doesn't exist in any booted sessions but was heard by darian as a headphone bleed on a session we don't have. I was hoping that possibly Mark was able to access this session and that the clarinet line would be prominent in this new release but maybe unlikely if it only exists as a headphone bleed.

[monicker]

I don't understand why some people keep bringing up this idea and concern that the key of the ending of a song has to match the key of the beginning of whatever song comes next. Do you think that this is how albums are made, that keys always match going from one song to the next? And even if you use the argument that Smile is different because it's not individual, unrelated songs but rather a long form structure with seamless transitions (no silence between tracks) it still doesn't matter. The keys don't need to match. What do you think modulating is? What, it's allowed to happen within a song but not when transitioning from one song to another? This thinking/concern with how they're going to "get around the problem of different keys" makes no sense at all. Music is not that rigid.  

[Roger Ryan]

...Fears:

...Windchimes ending again overly edited to match BWPS...

After the verses, the BWPS version follows the existing backing track to the first SMiLE session for this track perfectly. They might overdub some of the chorus vocals near the end, but everything else (as replicated on BWPS) was recorded in a single pass - no edits necessary, apart from the re-recorded verse section into the first chorus which was edited in the same fashion on the GV Box Set.

Oh ok - thanks for this. I always thought it was slightly altered from that backing track but cool if it will be easy to replicate with existing sessions. I love the tinkling piano coda though and always missed that in BWPS. Anyone managed to glean from the track lengths how WC might be configured on disc 1?

My guess is that it will be just like the BWPS version (although the TSS version is 13 seconds longer than the BWPS version - possibly a slower tempo?). I agree that the multiple piano coda heard on the GV Box Set version is very cool and it looks like that will be represented on Disc 4 as this:

6. Wind Chimes (Version 2 Tag) (2:51)

[buddhahat]

I don't understand why some people keep bringing up this idea and concern that the key of the ending of a song has to match the key of the beginning of whatever song comes next. Do you think that this is how albums are made, that keys always match going from one song to the next? And even if you use the argument that Smile is different because it's not individual, unrelated songs but rather a long form structure with seamless transitions (no silence between tracks) it still doesn't matter. The keys don't need to match. What do you think modulating is? What, it's allowed to happen within a song but not when transitioning from one song to another? This thinking/concern with how they're going to "get around the problem of different keys" makes no sense at all. Music is not that rigid.  

Of course songs within albums don't need to all be in compatible keys. My point is really that the flutter tone within this western theme section was designed as far as I can tell as a prelude to the false barnyard fade, or maybe barnyard, or one of those tags in the same key as Heroes.

Here, rather than being a concrete ending to heroes (as a fade would be), it kind of signals the start of the next song, i.e Worms. In my mixes, Worms always sounded a bit off following the flutter tone, but having played the two back to back today maybe they don';t sound so bad. It certainly won't bother me too much and I wasn't trying to be a downer. Just thought it was an interesting point as in BWPS they clearly wrote a new link section to get around this problem.

[buddhahat]

My guess is that it will be just like the BWPS version (although the TSS version is 13 seconds longer than the BWPS version - possibly a slower tempo?). I agree that the multiple piano coda heard on the GV Box Set version is very cool and it looks like that will be represented on Disc 4 as this:

6. Wind Chimes (Version 2 Tag) (2:51)

Cool  - thanks. Hadn't spotted that!

[Roger Ryan]

My guess is that it will be just like the BWPS version (although the TSS version is 13 seconds longer than the BWPS version - possibly a slower tempo?). I agree that the multiple piano coda heard on the GV Box Set version is very cool and it looks like that will be represented on Disc 4 as this:

6. Wind Chimes (Version 2 Tag) (2:51)

Cool  - thanks. Hadn't spotted that!

I actually had another thought on the 13 second timing difference: Perhaps that 13 sec. is the "whispering winds" round which is now part of "Wind Chimes" proper instead of simply being tagged onto the end of "Holidays". Even though the melody is the same between "whispering winds" and the fade on "Holidays", there may not be a cross fade on TSS.

[Jeff]

My guess is that it will be just like the BWPS version (although the TSS version is 13 seconds longer than the BWPS version - possibly a slower tempo?). I agree that the multiple piano coda heard on the GV Box Set version is very cool and it looks like that will be represented on Disc 4 as this:

6. Wind Chimes (Version 2 Tag) (2:51)

Cool  - thanks. Hadn't spotted that!

"Wind Chimes (Version 2 Tag)" looks like it's sessions for the tag rather than a completed version of the song with the tag.

I really hope they don't give us a Purple Chick version of Wind Chimes.  It's really dull and lifeless compared to the GV box set version.  The time difference is encouraging though, and I don't think tempo could explain that.

[hypehat]

My guess is that it will be just like the BWPS version (although the TSS version is 13 seconds longer than the BWPS version - possibly a slower tempo?). I agree that the multiple piano coda heard on the GV Box Set version is very cool and it looks like that will be represented on Disc 4 as this:

6. Wind Chimes (Version 2 Tag) (2:51)

Cool  - thanks. Hadn't spotted that!

I actually had another thought on the 13 second timing difference: Perhaps that 13 sec. is the "whispering winds" round which is now part of "Wind Chimes" proper instead of simply being tagged onto the end of "Holidays". Even though the melody is the same between "whispering winds" and the fade on "Holidays", there may not be a cross fade on TSS.

Very possible - fan mixes have a lot of difficulty with these, and although I guess having the mastertapes may solve a few of these problems, the Holidays fade is faster than Wind Chimes so that presents problems.