SPOILER!!- Heroes and Villains and Good Vibrations from TSS

[Iron Horse-Apples]

Mixing the "album" portion of disc one to mono is the LEAST mysterious "mystery" of the whole project. They simply don't have all the parts to mix all the songs into stereo, so for continuity's sake (and indeed because that's how Brian mixed in 1967), they're doing the "album" in mono. And so far, it sounds fantastic -- and it's not easy to mix mono effectively. Kind of a lost art, actually.

So glad to hear someone say this. Mono is bad mouthed by a lot of people who don't know what they are talking about. You get a whole different type of dynamic with mono, and it is a lot harder to mix in mono than stereo. Absolutely a lost art.

Mono is great, what you lose in depth, you make up for in impact. Stereo is not better, just different

[juggler]

In the case of H&V, he actually released the song as a single. Monkeying with these songs to fit them with a decades-later re-collaging of the material may be politically and practically necessary, but I don't have to like it.

No, you don't have to like it, so when you burn your own Smile CD you can use the H&V single (or the 3-minute cantina version... or H&V parts 1&2... or the Humble Harv demo... or the live version from In Concert... or yourself playing H&V on a kazoo).  That's the beauty of all this.  Even if they're doing something that's not exactly the way we'd do it, we're getting a treasure trove of pristine-quality Smile material with which we can do whatever we want.

[guitarfool2002]

Maybe I was misunderstanding the original question - I apologize if that's the case. Perhaps I thought you meant the original single version, or was it that you thought the "hiccup" note was the result of the editing rather than the player playing it?

Right, I did not mean the original single version, and the funny thing is that it was only last Saturday that I analysed the Humbeedum part on the 1990 "Good Vibrations (Various sessions)" and discovered that hiccup note and someone else brings it up a few days later.

And Yes, having just come home from work and not having had the time to check the SOT session yet, I still think the hiccup results from editing because of the missing flute and the fact that the hiccup isn't in the new version. And I have to leave right away again, but I will check tomorrow, I promise, and may find you are right. I'll get back to you.

One more questions, speaking of bars: In this case 4 bass notes are to be considered one bar? Or is it 8 notes?

I counted the bass notes as quarter notes, so it would be 4 per bar. My comparison was the SOT session to the "new" mix posted Tuesday, I haven't compared those to the "sessions" version on the Smiley Smile 2-fer.

[Iron Horse-Apples]

When I talked to Darian, he was in no doubt that some of the sequencing on BWPS is vintage. Brian was very quick to fit some pieces together. The most important in my opinion is Wonderful/Look. These so obviously belong together. Barnyard/Old Master Painter is another, and having CIFTTM before Surfs Up. Also, not sure how many people are aware of this, but putting the Rock Rock Roll lyrics onto Holidays was explicitly a vintage idea. Brian said those lyrics were supposed to go there.

Also we have the vintage melody to DYLW, and a vintage clarinet line on Look. For these reasons alone it is worth celebrating.

Can you elaborate any on what he said? This is fascinating.
I had never heard of the rock, rock, roll lyrics as part of Holidays being an original idea! Is there more you can say about this? Did you also hear this from Darian? Do you know how exactly the story goes of Brian remembering the DYLW melody?

Yes, I will get the story down tomorrow with pleasure. Funnily enough I had my mini disk player with me, and must have accidentaly hit record!
 
A lot of the details are well documented elsewhere though. Darian asked if there were any more bits to DYLW, and Brian started humming it. Darian had a vintage lyric sheet, but they couldn't read one of the words. They faxed it to VDP, and this was how he became involved in the project

But yes, according to Darian , the Rock Rock Roll lyrics were supposed to go on Holidays as well as DYLW, and that is straight from Brian. Maybe they were once supposed to go together, same tempo and rhythm!

[Bill Barnyard]

A lot of the details are well documented elsewhere though. Darian asked if there were any more bits to DYLW, and Brian started humming it. Darian had a vintage lyric sheet, but they couldn't read one of the words. They faxed it to VDP, and this was how he became involved in the project

But yes, according to Darian , the Rock Rock Roll lyrics were supposed to go on Holidays as well as DYLW, and that is straight from Brian. Maybe they were once supposed to go together, same tempo and rhythm!

Absolutely- I think what Darian asked Brian after listening to the GV box version of DYLW together, was there any more, to which Brian replied yes, that there was another melody and an Indian chant.

 

[Roger Ryan]

A lot of the details are well documented elsewhere though. Darian asked if there were any more bits to DYLW, and Brian started humming it. Darian had a vintage lyric sheet, but they couldn't read one of the words. They faxed it to VDP, and this was how he became involved in the project

But yes, according to Darian , the Rock Rock Roll lyrics were supposed to go on Holidays as well as DYLW, and that is straight from Brian. Maybe they were once supposed to go together, same tempo and rhythm!

Absolutely- I think what Darian asked Brian after listening to the GV box version of DYLW together, was there any more, to which Brian replied yes, that there was another melody and an Indian chant.

 

Well, the "Indian Chant" is there on the multi-tracks under the "Bicycle Rider" chorus, but it would be interesting to know if Brian actually recalled that the chanting was there before re-listening to the sessions. The verse melody is the thing that he just seemed to remember once he heard the backing track and he would be the only person to remember that if the lead vocal was never recorded or lost.

[Loaf]

And the ascending bass is on the Smiley version, it's just obscured by the organ.

I'll swear it isn't, and that it's utterly mixed out for Smiley. A little bit of the clanging percussion is still there (just two of the many original 'clangs', if I remember rightly), but not even much of that, and that rising bass-line... is completely absent. If you analyse everything below 160Hz in that mix, which is where that bass-line ought to be, spectrally speaking... then like the Zombies nearly said... it's not there.

And to Loaf:

The new H&V version brings out a lot more of the 'spookiness' i love so much. One thing that really struck me when i first heard the Smile boots of H&V (and GV) sessions was just how spooky it sounded, especially the harpsichord stuff.

I think dropping the organ from the My Children Were Raised section allows more room for the vocals to sparkle, and the ascending bassline part too. The vocals in general have more room to breathe. The Smiley version is quite cluttered with too much midrange.

Still not sure what I think about the woo-woos interrupting the "Dance...You're Under Arrest!".

Whoa, whoa... some things to point out here, too. First, some opinion. While I agree that the rising bassline chorus is spooky, it's not like the Baldwin in the Smiley chorus *isn't*. Especially in the parts on the 45/Smiley version where the whole track fades out leaving just that Boris Karloff drone. Disconcerted the beejeebies out of me when I first heard it, that did (though I kinda loved it, too).

Second... whaddya mean by 'dropping the organ from the My Children Were Raised section allows more room for the vocals to sparkle'. The organ is still IN that bit, even in the new mix! It's the only thing left droning after all the voices in that section have finished their beautiful harmonies, right before the lead vocal starts the 'I've been in this town' line in the 'Sunny Down Snuff' section.

And third... to borrow your terms for a moment; the 'woo-woos' interrupt the 'dance...you're under arrest' section on the original recorded tapes, if I remember my boot listening sessions correctly . That part was edited to cut more quickly to the 'You're Under Arrest' on Brian's February 'cantina' mix of H&V, but the woo-woos weren't interposed there for this mix. They were on the original tapes in that position all along. You could argue with some justification that as Brian edited them out and cut more quickly to 'You're Under Arrest' in February 1967, this mix should have been edited similarly to reflect that decision... but I'm guessing that as we'll be getting the Feb 67 mix somewhere else in the set anyway, Messrs Linett and Boyd chose to leave the 'woo-woos' in on this version. After all, for close-harmony approximations of a steam-train whistle, they sound pretty damn fine - a sterling piece of the brothers singing at their finest, I would say. Why not give these vocals their moment in the sun SOMEWHERE on the set, at least?

MattB

Matt, your post reads kinda like you are attacking me for voicing my own opinion...?

1. My opinion vs your opinion.

2. I didn't mean the organ wasn't in the My Children Were Raised section, i meant it had been dropped (down in the mix) from the levels in the original mix, which allowed the vocals room to breathe. Coulda been clearer? maybe.

3. I'm used to hearing the '...dance' line and anticipating the Arrest, and, as i said, which is my own opinion, i still don't know what to think about it.

[Loaf]

Also will I be the first with the guts to suggest that besides the better sound quality there is nothing much better than many fan mixes here? And certainly not better than the singles - Heroes and Villains on the single is like it or leave it THE one, because Brian felt strongly for it. It was at the height of a big trip for him, it meant a lot. And the harpsichord is in that version too you just might not have your eq set right. it's low in the mix, subliminal. mozart on acid a couple rooms away. The humbedum was left out of Good Vibrations not for time constraints but because it makes the song drag into mediocrity, the Ahhhhh! becomes a non-climax, deadened. Someone didn't get this in the room. They should've hired me as spiritual over seer of project. Mark Linett, you made the Ahhhhhs a premature ejaculation.

Those "Aaahs" – and the "breath" in Surf's Up '71, which strike on (or a millisecond prior to) the "D" in "Dove nested towers…" – are two of the quintessential moments in rock music. Peerless.

i know, which is why i am saying that strripped of their context made to follow the mediocre humbedum recording are made to sound weak, inferior, a non-climax. in the single, the Ahhhh is a powerful orgasm. it's perfectly placed.

I agree with you that the humbedums are awkwardly placed, ruining the climax of the best song ever released. I love the humbedums, but they're in the wrong place. Frankenmixes indeed.

[bossaroo]

I always interpreted the WooWooWoo's before "You're Under Arrest!" to be police sirens... not a train whistle.


What is the fadeout on the Cantina version from the GV box generally called... false Barnyard? Barnshine?

it's a shame that piece was dropped from BWPS, and now this version of H&V.

[Iron Horse-Apples]

I always interpreted the WooWooWoo's before "You're Under Arrest!" to be police sirens... not a train whistle.


What is the fadeout on the Cantina version from the GV box generally called... false Barnyard? Barnshine?

it's a shame that piece was dropped from BWPS, and now this version of H&V.

Remember we have H&V parts 1 and 2 coming. I have a feeling you'll get your fade bossaroo. The question is will it be the familiar one, or will it be the re-record with Carl singing on it? A piece of late SMiLE period beauty and eloquence.

[bossaroo]

yes, i'm sure it will turn up somewhere on the box... possibly as part of My Only Sunshine.

still, i think the "tape explosion" and the fade were essential parts of H&V, at least at one time.

[Iron Horse-Apples]

yes, i'm sure it will turn up somewhere on the box... possibly as part of My Only Sunshine.

still, i think the "tape explosion" and the fade were essential parts of H&V, at least at one time.

The timing looks good for Sunshine, you could well be right. That's the great thing about SMiLE eh? It was an essential part of H&V, but only after it was snipped from it's original place on Sunshine. SMiLE is music in flux, and each piece could have multiple placings. Soon we'll have 5 hours of pristine quality sections to fiddle around with to our hearts content.

Night all

Sweet SMiLE dreams

[Jeff]

yes, i'm sure it will turn up somewhere on the box... possibly as part of My Only Sunshine.

still, i think the "tape explosion" and the fade were essential parts of H&V, at least at one time.

And the whistling before the tape explosion.

But I really don't think there's any question that a version of the Cantina fade will be the end of Old Master Painter/You Are My Sunshine, with the "sun" vocals on top.  The 1:57 listed for that track is exactly the length of OMP/YAMS with the fade.

The tape explosion could well be part of Great Shape, though the time for that track is awfully short

[Matt Bielewicz]

Hey Loaf, sorry if you thought I was attacking... I wasn't, honest. I *did* think you'd made a mistake by saying the Baldwin had been 'dropped' from the 'My children were raised' section, because I thought you were saying it was gone from the new mix, when it isn't. But I did misunderstand what you were saying, yes!

And as to your other two points... yes, absolutely, it is your opinion versus mine, and that's great and, after all, why we're here, to discuss variant opinions about this old album thingy that never came out! Regarding point 3, I wasn't sure if you would have heard the boot which includes the 'woo-woos' straight after 'dance...', and whether you might know that they were actually on the tape all along, and Brian cut them out for the Feb 67 Cantina mix. It's funny, I heard the Cantina mix before that boot, so for years, like you, I got used to 'anticipating' the 'You're Under Arrest' straight after 'dance' and the little bit of banjo or mandolin or whatever. But then I heard the unedited boot version, liked the 'train whistle' effect and put that version into a SMiLE mix of mine which became my defacto 'easy listening' version of SMiLE from about 1998 until 2004. And then of course, that's how it sounded in the 2004 SMiLE as well. After listening to those versions for so long, the Cantina version's quick edit to 'You're Under Arrest' now sounds unnatural to my ears, even though I once thought it was the only way for that section to be...

So, in short, sorry if you thought I was leaping down your throat, and yes, you're right, it's all just opinion versus opinion. There's a larger point to be made here about what we all consider to be the 'right' way to experience SMiLE mixes and sections, and how much our individual sense of what is 'right' is influenced by what the versions and mixes we heard first sounded like... but that point is already being made very eloquently by The Heartical Don and others, so I'll just sit back and watch that one develop. I will say, however, that just as there are those who are convinced that the Cantina version of H&V is a worthy successor to Good Vibrations and the 45 version is the failed, dischordant product of a much-diminished mid-1967 Brian Wilson, there are those like me that like much of what's in the Cantina version but find it a bit disjointed, and feel the 45/Smiley version to be the *true* masterpiece. And yes, I *did* hear the 45 version first... so make of that what you will!

MattB

[Loaf]

Hi Matt, no hard feelings. Roll on November

[Matt Bielewicz]

As Tintin used to say: and how!!!!!

Except, of course, that I very much hope I'll be listening by October 31st, being in the UK. That is, if EMI pull their collective finger out...!

But howsoever and whensoever exactly it comes Loaf, yes, I agree: roll on early November... Nobody here go falling under any buses now between now and then, mmkay??!!!

MattB

[Ron]

If anything that ending section was *definitely* extended 8 bars from how it was recorded originally on the session, but listening to the session tape the bassist plays the hiccup every time so it was done take after take and was planned out. On one take Brian has him play the accents in a higher octave, and he "hiccups" that pickup note in the higher octave too.

O.K., so we know it was deliberate then.  My thing I'm trying to figure out though, is why isn't it on the original single?  No big deal, just in my little head I always thought the original recording had the faded vocals, then also the hum be dummm stuff, but they snipped it right where the bass does the 'accent' note.  Sorry I can't find my Smiley CD to check the part you keep pointing me to

[Ron]

And I'd have dubbed the clarinet back onto Look. Its VINTAGE OK.

So where is that missing ?

It's on BWPS. Whilst Darian was researching he heard the clarinet line on bleedthrough, though it had been erased. It's vintage SMiLE.

I seriously doubt they would dub new instruments on, but it wouldn't bother me if it was a proven vintage idea and was done correctly.
[/quote]

They've got to draw the line somewhere though, or they'd record new vocals.  Sacrelige.  I mention in another thread, they are going by the book BWPS it seems. 

[Bicyclerider]

Do we know if this mix of Heroes is a new mix, or a recreation of a vintage mix from acetate?  Because the compilers had acetates of a loner version of Heroes and it was a longer version of the Smiley version.  This seems to fit that description.

[Ron]

I wanted something different from these mixes and I got it!

I'm thinking this sets a precedent that Disc 1 is not about trying to honor to the letter what was might have happened in '66/'67, but to create something new and fun based on what Brian decided was new and fun back in 2003. Clearly, BWPS is the template, but as we can tell from the timings, there are going to be some twists that may be closer to the spirit of the original test edits/sessions.

Mark has tried to de-SMILEY SMILE as much of "Heroes & Villains" as possible (note how the a cappella section after "Peace in the valley" seems to be missing the vocal overdub done for the 45 single) while sticking to what was presented on BWPS. Sure, there are a few rougher moments in there, but this is being cobbled together from incomplete tapes. This, to me, is what a SMiLE version should have sounded like (even though I prefer "Heroes..." without the "Bicycle Rider" theme chorus); I'm really looking forward to hearing this in stereo!

Similarly, the new additions to "Good Vibrations" are there not because Brian wanted that in '66 but was forced to edit those additions out, but because that's how Brian/Darian et al decided to do it in 2003. I like it because it gives this SMiLE-version of the song a twist not heard for the last 45 years. If you're going to end the "album" with it, why not give it an extended ending (the quick fadeout of the single version would have felt very abrupt). I imagine Steve Hoffman feels somewhat vindicated since he extended the ending himself a number of years back without asking permission!

Exactly.  I agree, the #1 reason behind everything they're doing is that they want it to sound as much as possible like the 04 album, and are taking it as gospel that Brian would have somehow released it like that in 67.  I know that's a BIG can of worms, but that's what they're rolling with.  To release the album as any other way, they'd have to say that his 2004 album is incorrect, and they're either unwilling, or Brian won't have it.  OR, like I mentioned somewhere else, possibly they have more evidence than we do that the 2004 album was pretty close to what would have happened in 67 (could an early mix of some sort exist of part of the album?)

[Ron]

Also will I be the first with the guts to suggest that besides the better sound quality there is nothing much better than many fan mixes here? And certainly not better than the singles - Heroes and Villains on the single is like it or leave it THE one, because Brian felt strongly for it. It was at the height of a big trip for him, it meant a lot. And the harpsichord is in that version too you just might not have your eq set right. it's low in the mix, subliminal. mozart on acid a couple rooms away. The humbedum was left out of Good Vibrations not for time constraints but because it makes the song drag into mediocrity, the Ahhhhh! becomes a non-climax, deadened. Someone didn't get this in the room. They should've hired me as spiritual over seer of project. Mark Linett, you made the Ahhhhhs a premature ejaculation.

Those "Aaahs" –  Peerless.

To me, it's not the "Aaahhs" , but the moment of silence after them, when you hear the void, with echo, that they leave behind.  It's the 1 moment that the Beach Boys actually DID become angels.  Heaven has to sound like that!

[Ron]

Mixing the "album" portion of disc one to mono is the LEAST mysterious "mystery" of the whole project. They simply don't have all the parts to mix all the songs into stereo, so for continuity's sake (and indeed because that's how Brian mixed in 1967), they're doing the "album" in mono. And so far, it sounds fantastic -- and it's not easy to mix mono effectively. Kind of a lost art, actually.

So glad to hear someone say this. Mono is bad mouthed by a lot of people who don't know what they are talking about. You get a whole different type of dynamic with mono, and it is a lot harder to mix in mono than stereo. Absolutely a lost art.

Mono is great, what you lose in depth, you make up for in impact. Stereo is not better, just different

I would prefer Stereo, just me, but hell they don't HAVE Stereo.  If just for Good Vibrations alone they can't do Stereo.  So it is what it is.  Mono is alright.  No complaints.

[Ron]

Do we know if this mix of Heroes is a new mix, or a recreation of a vintage mix from acetate?  Because the compilers had acetates of a loner version of Heroes and it was a longer version of the Smiley version.  This seems to fit that description.

We don't know, but we do know that it's almost an exact copy of the BWPS version... which Brian rubber stamped as being the way to do it. 

The real question here is: Did Darian have COMPLETE access to the vaults when he helped Brian sequence the album, or did he only have access to what had been booted? 

[OneEar/OneEye]

My initial listen I was disappointed in the construction of this H&V (other than the sound quality, which sounded great to my old ears), but then I put my "fan-boy" expectations away and played it a bunch more times while I did other things, listening from the side, as opposed to focusing every nuance of my being upon every milisecond of it, and suddenly it came together for me.  I really dug it as it was (is), and could see it having been released this way (had it indeed been released this way, which of course it wasn't) back in '67 as just dandy and fine.  

Good Vibes sounds great too, and the extended fade is a plus.  That's the only thing about the original that irked me,  was it faded out too quickly.

[Sam_BFC]

The question is will it be the familiar one, or will it be the re-record with Carl singing on it? A piece of late SMiLE period beauty and eloquence.

I'm not sure I have come across this before (seems likely I will when the box is released ) - is it just wordless vocals from Carl here?