SPOILER!!- Heroes and Villains and Good Vibrations from TSS

[monicker]

Go to 1:26 into the track...what's with that edit? You can still hear the fluttertone horn from another section

That's always been there, you can hear it on the Smiley version.

and it sounds like one of the "La's" got snipped.

I wouldn't say sniped, but the Smiley edit sounds cleaner to me than this one. Also, on a side note, the equivalent sections of the Smiley version have more energy than this one. Do an A/B. Also, i really miss the "circus" organ phrases at the end of the verses. They're so damn good.

That beautiful string coda is and always will be one of my favorite Smile sections or pieces of music in general. Best quality yet...awesome.

Yeah. It gives me the chills in this version.

But the hum de dum part of GV is my favorite piece of music in existence. Needless to say, i am happy about its inclusion.

 

Aargh I hate myself for getting involved in this. I don't think any of the las are snipped. If there is any problem (and this is wholly subjective) it's that on this new mix the las are coming in like 0.1 second earlier than the equivalent section on the Smiley version, so imo you lose a bit of that suspenseful delay (albeit  a minute bit) before the las drop in. There may well be a good reason for Mark doing it this way as others have suggested and I do not have the editing skills to pass judgement. FWIW I love this new mix but if I was to be uber nitpicky that's what I'd change. Presumably if one is inclined to do so it will be easy to make our own edits anyway, once the box is out.

Listen to that transition on this new mix and then listen to it on the 2001 Hawthorne mix. You will hear how the Hawthorne mix is a cleaner edit (meaning only that the first la is not snipped and/or there's no click or anything [resulting when you cut in the middle of a sound]), regardless of any difference in the timing between sections. And that 2001 mix is Linett's. So we need not compare Linett to Wilson; just Linett to himself (albeit his self from ten years ago).

As for the click/pop in the "I've been in this town so long" section, i am really hoping that that is the result of mp3 encoding, and i will withhold further judgement on that until i hear the CDs.

[buddhahat]

However I think the craziest version would have been one that included "I'm In Great Shape" and possibly "Barnyard." On the Humble Harv demo alone, it shows how crazy and startling it would be if they followed the flutter tone with "I'm In Great Shape".  Then maybe after a few more parts, end the song with "Barnyard" on that softer note, wow, that would be great. I gotta say, from seeing the tracklist, that's the only real disappointment I have, that there apparently is no fall 1966 mix, because I'd imagine what I just described might be like those versions.

Do you think there would have been sections in between Great Shape and Barnyard on that fall 66 mix? I'm inclined to believe that the Humble Harv demo shows us exactly how those two sections would have gone - Great Shape followed by Barnyard as the fade. If you splice Barnyard right into the loudest part of the tape explosion effect in Great Shape it sounds perfect - a revelation to my ears. Of course we'll never know unless its documented on the upcoming set but I think on the Harv demo he's saying 'it goes Great shape, then barnyard'.

What are the odds that the part 1 and 2 mix  might contain either Barnyard or great shape? Were they definitely out of the running for Heroes by the time he was working on the 2 sided version?

[buddhahat]

Go to 1:26 into the track...what's with that edit? You can still hear the fluttertone horn from another section

That's always been there, you can hear it on the Smiley version.

and it sounds like one of the "La's" got snipped.

I wouldn't say sniped, but the Smiley edit sounds cleaner to me than this one. Also, on a side note, the equivalent sections of the Smiley version have more energy than this one. Do an A/B. Also, i really miss the "circus" organ phrases at the end of the verses. They're so damn good.

That beautiful string coda is and always will be one of my favorite Smile sections or pieces of music in general. Best quality yet...awesome.

Yeah. It gives me the chills in this version.

But the hum de dum part of GV is my favorite piece of music in existence. Needless to say, i am happy about its inclusion.

 

Aargh I hate myself for getting involved in this. I don't think any of the las are snipped. If there is any problem (and this is wholly subjective) it's that on this new mix the las are coming in like 0.1 second earlier than the equivalent section on the Smiley version, so imo you lose a bit of that suspenseful delay (albeit  a minute bit) before the las drop in. There may well be a good reason for Mark doing it this way as others have suggested and I do not have the editing skills to pass judgement. FWIW I love this new mix but if I was to be uber nitpicky that's what I'd change. Presumably if one is inclined to do so it will be easy to make our own edits anyway, once the box is out.

Listen to that transition on this new mix and then listen to it on the 2001 Hawthorne mix. You will hear how the Hawthorne mix is a cleaner edit (meaning only that the first la is not snipped and/or there's no click or anything [resulting when you cut in the middle of a sound]), regardless of any difference in the timing between sections. And that 2001 mix is Linett's. So we need not compare Linett to Wilson; just Linett to himself (albeit his self from ten years ago).

As for the click/pop in the "I've been in this town so long" section, i am really hoping that that is the result of mp3 encoding, and i will withhold further judgement on that until i hear the CDs.

Well now I'm confused, because I can't hear a clean or unclean edit, or a clipped La. Only the timing thing which I'm beginning to wonder might be own unique hang up and something I need to re-frame before I ruin this entire release for myself! The La las come in marginally too early on the Hawthorne mix too so it's clearly how Linett edits those two sections and I need to get over it!

The click/pop I can't help you with as I refuse to search for any more errors. Once you hear it your doomed. Could well be an encoding problem. We'll all be laughing at our preciousness in six week's time when we discover Mike's added a new rap over the Surf's Up coda anyway.

[The Demon]

I'm liking the new version of H&V compared to the disjointed and not fully realized Smiley Smile Version.

Me too.  It's probably the first version I've actually loved.  I always liked the song, but it was never my favorite Smile piece.  This new edit sound like a proper followup to "Good Vibrations."  It's unusual and catchy, long for a 45, but it never drags.  It's the musical rollercoaster I think Brian was trying to capture.

I think I see things a bit differently. Here's my reasoning:

First, I'll say that the Smiley Smile version is my favorite, especially in it 2001 mix. It's just such a sharp well written blast of pop music with a bunch of cool sections, and I think it better captures the rollercoaster feel than the "cantina" mix (with the three score and five part), which to me, somewhat sounds unfinished to me. However I think the craziest version would have been one that included "I'm In Great Shape" and possibly "Barnyard." On the Humble Harv demo alone, it shows how crazy and startling it would be if they followed the flutter tone with "I'm In Great Shape".  Then maybe after a few more parts, end the song with "Barnyard" on that softer note, wow, that would be great. I gotta say, from seeing the tracklist, that's the only real disappointment I have, that there apparently is no fall 1966 mix, because I'd imagine what I just described might be like those versions.

But at the end of the day, Brian chose what he chose, and he's the artist, so....it's his choice and I respect that.

Great points.  And I do agree about that earlier version he was striving for.  I like the "cantina" version because it's almost there, you know?  It doesn't quite reach the level I think he was going for, but I think it was pretty ballsy of him to construct a single that had no chorus.  And to me that's a key factor in what he was doing, though I think he couldn't do a version without a chorus that he liked enough.  So the 45 takes the easy way out (no weird sections, borrowed chorus), while this new edit tries to combine both approaches.

I do like the 45 version, but I think it just has a different feel for me.  It combines the Smile  energy with Smiley's subdued retrospection.  Great track, but I never heard it as an adequate hit single, not that that devalues the recording.  Maybe I just hear it in the context of Smiley Smile, and shouldn't.  It's almost too energetic for that album.  The rusty, tired sounds of the Baldwin do fit the retrospective lyrics, though.  Maybe I'd love it if I heard it as part of Smile.  (As an aside, it's too bad Glen Campbell never stuck with the group.  Hearing him sing this would be perfect, since he has a mature voice that fits the lyrics.)

One of the great things about "Heroes," though, is you can do different versions with different personalities.  We all have our favorites.  I do think I'll be reevaluating Smile tracks a lot more than I thought I would when the box comes out, too.

[Wrightfan]

We should know the winners of the Tongal SMiLE concept competition tonight. Entries being evaluated and winners should be announced around 7:50 eastern

[Jeff]

However I think the craziest version would have been one that included "I'm In Great Shape" and possibly "Barnyard." On the Humble Harv demo alone, it shows how crazy and startling it would be if they followed the flutter tone with "I'm In Great Shape".  Then maybe after a few more parts, end the song with "Barnyard" on that softer note, wow, that would be great. I gotta say, from seeing the tracklist, that's the only real disappointment I have, that there apparently is no fall 1966 mix, because I'd imagine what I just described might be like those versions.

Do you think there would have been sections in between Great Shape and Barnyard on that fall 66 mix? I'm inclined to believe that the Humble Harv demo shows us exactly how those two sections would have gone - Great Shape followed by Barnyard as the fade. If you splice Barnyard right into the loudest part of the tape explosion effect in Great Shape it sounds perfect - a revelation to my ears. Of course we'll never know unless its documented on the upcoming set but I think on the Harv demo he's saying 'it goes Great shape, then barnyard'.

What are the odds that the part 1 and 2 mix  might contain either Barnyard or great shape? Were they definitely out of the running for Heroes by the time he was working on the 2 sided version?

I don't think Barnyard would have been the fade.  A section, yes, but not the fade.  The overall structure of the song was Heroes & Villains.  A western journey.  To have it end in the Barnyard without coming back to the overall theme doesn't make a lot of sense, IMO.

[Micha]

Just relistened to the lala section - I now think that it isn't that a part of the "la" was chopped off but rather the bass coming in too harshly. What do you think?

[Camus]

The Humble Harv demo - I've been thinking about this.  Is Brian really showing how H&V would be sequenced, or is he simply playing through some Smile sections?  After all, this album was recorded as a series of modular sections that he was continually rearranging.

[buddhahat]

Just relistened to the lala section - I now think that it isn't that a part of the "la" was chopped off but rather the bass coming in too harshly. What do you think?

I'm fairly certain it's just an issue of timing. If you tap your foot in time with the chorus in the 45, the la las drop in on the same beat established by the chorus. On this (and the Hawthorne mix) the la las come in a fraction too early. Later in the mix the pause before Bridge to Indians is perfect so I'm not sure why it is shorter before the la las, but it does seem deliberate as it features in both this new mix and the Hawthorne one

[The Demon]

The Humble Harv demo - I've been thinking about this.  Is Brian really showing how H&V would be sequenced, or is he simply playing through some Smile sections?  After all, this album was recorded as a series of modular sections that he was continually rearranging.

He makes it sound like it's just sections.  Doesn't he say something like, "And here's another section"?  He doesn't play a version straight through, he stops and thinks of another part he wants to include.

[hypehat]

The way he transitions from the verse to Great Shape sounds like what the plan was - there's no hesitation, really. From that to Barnyard does sound hesitant, you're right.

[ghost]

That Humble Harv thing is really like the center around which my Brian Wilson interest revolves. Just hearing him pounding away at Heroes and Villains like it's the greatest rock & roll feel ever felt, his voice has that edge of insanity to it, he's unrestrained, illuminated.

I wish there was recordings of him and VDP writing all the Smile songs at the piano or organ or whatever else they used.

[Camus]

Isn't it Van Dyke playing the piano on the Humble Harv demo?

[homeontherange]

Isn't it Van Dyke playing the piano on the Humble Harv demo?

Definitely sounds like Brian playing the piano.

[ghost]

DEFINITELY Brian playing. VDP is off being too shy to make animal noises.

[Chris Brown]

I put a lot of stock in the Humble Harv demo - it's never seemed to me that Brian was just playing random sections, they all seem to fit together and as mentioned by others, there's little hesitation on Brian's part, at least on the first transition.  The gap between "Great Shape" and "Barnyard" didn't strike me as Brian trying to figure out what to play next - I've always felt that he just wasn't sure how he was going to work the transition, so he just stopped (as opposed to doing the flutter tone at the end of the first "Heroes" verse).  Tape explosion does sound like it would be perfect there, but I digress.  The way he says "there's another section now" sounds to me like he's saying "this comes next," not "oh here's another random snippet I've been working on."  Clearly "Barnyard" hadn't been extrapolated fully in his mind yet, and maybe it wouldn't have ended the song outright, although at that point in time I don't think we have any evidence of him working on another fade (as "False Barnyard" wasn't recorded until January I believe - feel free to correct me on that one).

It wouldn't be difficult to make an edit of those three sections, with the transitions described above - and if you did, I think it would sound pretty damn cool.  The only issue would be a fade, and I do agree that some kind of return to the main theme would probably have been necessary, but what an adventurous single THAT would have made.  Talk about modular recording - it really would have thrown people for a loop, and unfortunately probably not done very well as a single, as people would have been quite confused by such radical (and random) sections.

Clearly the idea had been nixed by December, as "Great Shape" and "Barnyard" had seemingly been spun into their own songs.  The two part single idea seems to have originated sometime in February, and even that didn't last very long apparently.  Thus, I don't think we'll see anything like this on the single with the box set, but like I said, with the enhanced sound quality of the cuts on the box, it will be possible to create a mix that's quite close to what Brian may have been thinking in October '66.

[The Demon]

Clearly the idea had been nixed by December, as "Great Shape" and "Barnyard" had seemingly been spun into their own songs.  The two part single idea seems to have originated sometime in February, and even that didn't last very long apparently.  Thus, I don't think we'll see anything like this on the single with the box set, but like I said, with the enhanced sound quality of the cuts on the box, it will be possible to create a mix that's quite close to what Brian may have been thinking in October '66.

You might.  They still list "Barnard" and "Great Shape" as parts of "Heroes" when you look at the sessions tracks.  They could use them in "Heroes" part two for all we know.

And I'm guessing he may have always liked "Barnyard" with some kind of fade, due to the time difference in the track on disc 1 of the box and the length of the master take.