Wilson & Spector

[originals]

Brian Wilson IDOLIZED Phil Spector and it's something I have to accept and respect because of how much I admire Brian....but the whole notion of it always leaves me flabbergasted; because, in my view, Brian was so much more talented - created beautiful songs that he also SANG - had far clearer and crisper production that Spector's mush of over-produced wall of 'noise' (as far as I'm concerned).
I also loathe Spector for being cruel and bullying to Brian the way Murry was towards him - -  and for the life of me, I just don't see what Brian saw in 'Be My Baby'. Brian wrote 100 songs better than that.
I'll never figure it out. It's like learning that the creator of 'All In The Family' felt he could never live up to the achievements of the people who dreamed up 'Hello Larry'.
And on top of it - there is a book about Spector where he chalks up Brian's admiration for him as: 'when a guy like that looks up to someone else that much, it's probably because he just doesn't really have the chops himself."
(Has Brian ever publically commented on Spector's going to prison for murder?)

[37!ws]

(Has Brian ever publically commented on Spector's going to prison for murder?)

I don't know about the CONVICTION, but I think when Spector was still on trial Brian was quoted somewhere as saying something like, "I don't think he did it. They must have got the wrong guy."

[originals]

Two musical innovators: one a cruel, sociopath and the other a very gentle, loving soul.

[SMiLE Brian]

I think Brian likes "be my baby" because that song's backing track roaring along with the ronettes' singing is amazing through one working ear.

[hypehat]

I think Brian's people stopped journalists asking about Spector after that.

[originals]

I think Brian likes "be my baby" because that song's backing track roaring along with the ronettes' singing is amazing through one working ear.

Again, I have no doubt that it was mind-blowing for Brian in the age in which it was released....but - man! - - Brian has written SO many better songs than that!!

[SMiLE Brian]

I think Brian likes "be my baby" because that song's backing track roaring along with the ronettes' singing is amazing through one working ear.

Again, I have no doubt that it was mind-blowing for Brian in the age in which it was released....but - man! - - Brian has written SO many better songs than that!!

I also think part of it is that song inspired Brian to go big with his productions like Spector's.

[Chris Brown]

I think Brian likes "be my baby" because that song's backing track roaring along with the ronettes' singing is amazing through one working ear.

Again, I have no doubt that it was mind-blowing for Brian in the age in which it was released....but - man! - - Brian has written SO many better songs than that!!

I also think part of it is that song inspired Brian to go big with his productions like Spector's.

Exactly - it wasn't so much the song itself (although he obviously liked the melody), but the big arrangement and the way the harmony vocals in the chorus compliment the lead.  It made him think about his productions in a different way.  I can see how, in 1963, Brian would be blown away by that.  Of course, I do agree that within a few short years, Brian had developed into a far greater talent than Spector, but you can't understate the influence Spector had on Brian's sound, or how different his records would have sounded in a world without Spector.

[doinnothin]

Just to put out a contrary opinion. I love Spector's stuff. And "Be My Baby" is phenomenal. I think they're two greats, though I'd give Brian the edge.

[ghost]

Hasn't Brian called Spector God?

[Margarita]

Spector had something with the Wall of Sound concept.  Some songs he did are fantastic in that style.  But he quickly went overboard; I describe most of his work as like trying to listen to a song being played through a window air conditioner. 
Brian was able to take the same concept and produce it in a much cleaner way.  Brian's wall of sound is complex, yet it doesn't fall into a muddy mess.  You can hear everything.

As for that picture above...you have Spector, who looks about 15 years older than Brian (even though he's only about 2.5 years older), all hunched over and evil-looking.  He looks like the kind of New Yorker who survives totally on cigarettes and coffee, and probably couldn't run a quarter mile without keeling over.  Then there's Brian, who despite being a little chubby was still only a few years out from lettering in three sports.  He also has a good foot in height over Spector.  He could squash him like a bug...though he never would do such a thing.

[kwan_dk]

I also loathe Spector for being cruel and bullying to Brian the way Murry was towards him - -  and for the life of me, I just don't see what Brian saw in 'Be My Baby'. Brian wrote 100 songs better than that(...)
And on top of it - there is a book about Spector where he chalks up Brian's admiration for him as: 'when a guy like that looks up to someone else that much, it's probably because he just doesn't really have the chops himself."

This is an extremely interesting topic and one that I've given some thought.

Do you know for a fact that Spector was cruel and bullying to Brian? Or are you just referring to the way their relationship is portrayed in Wouldn't It be Nice? If that's the case you should probably look for more convincing evidence. As for the quote, there are quite a few examples of him being supportive and kind towards Brian both during the 60s and later on. So I wouldn't take that quote completely at face value. I remember reading somewhere that he got Andy Paley to bring Brian along to a (ultimately unreleased) Celine Dion session in the 90s on Brian's birthday, greeting him warmly and saying how glad he was to see him. I think their relationship is much more complex than the black/white outline of quotes like the above one.

As a massive Spector fan (of his music, that is), I was sad to see the condenscenting remarks on Brian that Spector was quoted for in Mick Brown's fab Spector bio 'Breaking Down the Wall of Sound' - but note that during the interview where those quotes were from he also managed to diss a lot of other legendary musicians. So I don't think it's a case of wanting to throw dirt specifically at Brian, but rather that it's some sort of defense mechanism where Spector resorts to critizice everyone at random in order to talk up and emphasise his own image as a reclusive and rebellious madman producer - it's just like Ronnie Spector has said "when people began calling him 'the Mad Genius', that's what he became." But there's actually also strong evidence that Spector suffers from some sort of bipolar personality / schizophrenia. Supposedly one day he's all smiles, cracking jokes and considerate only to become testy, gloomy and pushy the next day. I think that would account for the often very conflicting Spector qoutes on Brian & his music.

I think SMILE Brian was right on the money in stating that in order to understand Brian's love of the Wall of Sound you really need to imagine the historic context where he encountered Spector's music. The Wall of Sound may sound muddy today in an age where we're all used to crystal clear sound (and stereo to boot) played back on state of the art hi fis, but imagine hearing Be my Baby booming out of a tiny transistor radio back then right after some crude recording made on a shoe-string budget. It must have sounded like otherworldly music, straight from another dimension. In terms of Be my Baby's impact, I think rock critic Dave Marsh put it best, describing Spector's production like building a rock'n'roll cathedral around what little Ronnie Spector's voice had to offer.

Yeah, so the songs sound muddy and it's impossible to distinguish the instruments, string, backing vocals etc. from one another. Well, it was meant to be that way, all for the sake of impact, impact, impact. Songs that jumped out the speakers and hit you like a brick wall. I love the image of Brian having to pull over when first hearing Be my Baby while driving. One other aspect - imagine a 1963 Brian totally ready for expanding the Beach Boys sound, wanting to strike out and become independant, getting the power to stand up to the demands on specific sounds & styles of direction  from Capitol, Murrey, others in the band etc. How could he not look up to Spector then? He broke every rule in the business and took no crap from anyone!  

Finally, on a personal level, I don't even like the big hits as much as the lost gems of Spector's catalog that mosly only hardcore fans know. It seems that for every Be my Baby, there's a You Baby, I'll Never Need More than This or He Hit Me (And It Felt Like a Kiss). I urge everyone to check his stuff out to get a better picture of what Brian loved so much - one of his favourite Spector songs, MFQs mindblowing This Could be the Night was even kept unrealeased until the 70s.  

Other than that though, I agree with people here - Spector basically was a one-trick pony whereas Brian far surpassed him as the years went on.... But what a trick it was!

[Magic Transistor Radio]

They should stick Phil Spector in the same cell as Charles Manson. I bet they could come up with some 'killer' songs!

[Don_Zabu]

Just to put out a contrary opinion. I love Spector's stuff. And "Be My Baby" is phenomenal. I think they're two greats, though I'd give Brian the edge.

[ghost]

They should stick Phil Spector in the same cell as Charles Manson. I bet they could come up with some 'killer' songs!

That sounds like fun to say but in reality it would not hold up. Terry Melcher's biggest complaint about Manson the musician was not a lack of talent but lack of respect for others in being produced [told what to do]. He couldn't take it and showed his prison ethics personality - his hey brother come too close and i'll cut you. Phil Spector used his musicians like rags from what I've read making them do tons of performances for a reason most people understand but would probably not be so demanding of others as to do it. They would clash if it was Phil recording Charlie. Who by the way has been making albums of his own sort all through the years in his cell. He gets a perfect sound for his music - distant tape cassette memories from an old cell with an old man and his old guitar. What would Phil do, press record?

and Manson's songs aren't normal songs, Phil would have to have a secret abstract side to be into Charlie's acid folk or whatever you might want to call it.

although if you Youtube searfch "Im on Fire" by Charles Manson - imagine a wall of sound Spector mono style on that one! A chorus of Manson shaman voices echoing as aural flames agonizing pains.

[ghost]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQR7NN-TT_Q

Verily, this is some of the greaetest music ever made by man. 

[Magic Transistor Radio]

They should stick Phil Spector in the same cell as Charles Manson. I bet they could come up with some 'killer' songs!

That sounds like fun to say but in reality it would not hold up. Terry Melcher's biggest complaint about Manson the musician was not a lack of talent but lack of respect for others in being produced [told what to do]. He couldn't take it and showed his prison ethics personality - his hey brother come too close and i'll cut you. Phil Spector used his musicians like rags from what I've read making them do tons of performances for a reason most people understand but would probably not be so demanding of others as to do it. They would clash if it was Phil recording Charlie. Who by the way has been making albums of his own sort all through the years in his cell. He gets a perfect sound for his music - distant tape cassette memories from an old cell with an old man and his old guitar. What would Phil do, press record?

and Manson's songs aren't normal songs, Phil would have to have a secret abstract side to be into Charlie's acid folk or whatever you might want to call it.

although if you Youtube searfch "Im on Fire" by Charles Manson - imagine a wall of sound Spector mono style on that one! A chorus of Manson shaman voices echoing as aural flames agonizing pains.

Although, Phil Spector did work with the Ramones. And he freaked THEM out!

[Micha]

Two musical innovators: one a cruel, sociopath and the other a very gentle, loving soul.

I'm not a fan of these clear cut black and white categorisations. There's shades of grey in everyone.

Brian's songs sounded best when he tried to emulate Spector IMHO.

[originals]

In the 'Catch A Wave' book - Spector invites Brian to come and play piano on a track and then humiliates him in front of everyone in the studio for supposedly playing piano badly.....then publically dismisses him.

[Roger Ryan]

...Do you know for a fact that Spector was cruel and bullying to Brian? Or are you just referring to the way their relationship is portrayed in Wouldn't It be Nice?...

In interviews over the past 15 years where Spector mentions him, he invariably derides Brian's talent and never fails to call him brain-damaged or mentally ill. Given this consistency of opinion, I have no problem imagining Spector bullying Brian back in the 60s.

[RONDEMON]

It may have been the On Tour DVD but Brian talks a little about the Spector session he played on but made no mention of the piano incident. I wonder if he remembers it differently or just took it the wrong way.

[Peter Reum]

I love Phil's music, but he is very mentally ill, and nothing he says should be taken that seriously, IMHO

[SMiLE Brian]

I'm wondering if Brian will watch that HBO movie coming out with Al Pacino as Phil.

[originals]

I know Phil's son and his father was/is INCREDIBLY cruel to him.

[guitarfool2002]

I don't recall Spector ever "bullying" Brian, rather the story I heard was Spector had Brian sit in on the piano at a Christmas session and try playing a part. And after Brian didn't play it as Spector wanted, Spector used someone else on piano. Has the story been embellished somewhere to suggest Spector insulted or bullied Brian at that date? I got the impression Brian didn't want to play the part in the first place and Spector convinced him to try.

There are multiple photo shoots of Spector's Christmas sessions in the studio...none show Brian. Has anyone seen a shot of Brian at Gold Star with Spector on those dates? If he was there, and photos were shot, it's odd he's not in any of them. Any AFM contracts for the dates in question showing Brian there on the date? Or was it just a rehearsal?

Spector's aura outlived the reality of who he was. I think. Sure we have dozens of stories of his unusual or unstable behavior, but was he that way as a general rule or was it something he played up for effect? It got him in trouble more than once. Also, the Spector in Lennon's Imagine film - is he unbalanced, unstable, or in any way like the Spector "character" we've read about? The session tapes that have leaked from Spector's early 60's sessions - does he sound like a madman barking orders in the studio or does he sound like anyone else producing a record in those cases?

One thing that surprised me was hearing how much Howard Roberts apparently could not stand Spector. Howard said Spector caused a bad injury to Howard's hand after having him play the same part on 12-string acoustic for take after take in a session, and Howard had to get medical treatment for it as a result. That was one thing about Spector - he used studio musicians for every ounce of sweat he could wring out of them. Yet I'd argue the notion of "The Wrecking Crew" began in full with Phil Spector's sessions.