The Jon Stebbins Thread

[Rocker]

I don't think Murry had anything to do with it, because, as MBE said, he was already fired by that time.  I believe he was just sick that day. To the public it didn't matter, they just wanted to see Dennis on the picture I guess...
BTW I think Al became "partner" earlier than the 70s.

[Bill]

From the bootlegged session tapes for the Rhonda single, it sure seems that Murry was still around, at the time of  Summer Days,  making his influence felt in his special way. Murry may have been "fired," according to the Official Story, but his business practices would appear to have remained. It's not like such heavy-handed treatment of the unrelated members of the group had no precedent.  Ask David Marks.
I just don't buy the "Al was sick for the session" explanation. Doesn't ring true.

[Jon Stebbins]

First off Al definitely wasn't at the cover shoot for All Summer Long either...as MBE stated. His photos are added later...notice he isn't in any photos with the other guys on that cover. I've seen the outtakes of the All Summer Long shoot and Al is obviously missing. The ASL shoot is a year before the Summer Days shoot, so is the AL/Murry conspiracy in action at that time? I doubt it. Murry was already gone in spring of '64 as people have stated. The Rhonda session was a one off thing...he was just invited down for that session and everyone knew it was a mistake. Its not like he was hanging around the studio or influencing the photo shoots all the time. Rhonda may have been the first session he attended since the I Get Around session when he was fired. And I doubt he was welcome back after that for many years.

Al was NOT made a full-member of the Beach Boys until the '70's according to Al himself. Before that he was a paid sideman...at a reduced royalty share plus salary per gig. All of these details are examined closely in the upcoming Dave Marks book. Some people's minds will fry when they actually see the breakdown of the contractual details. Al and David were both taken advantage of in a major way...and to varying degrees. Al recovered his fortune...David did not.

As far as the BB's LP cover photos and Al's not being in them. I truly think he just missed them...perhaps he didn't hang with the other guys as much. And he just wasn't a major priority in a promotional sense back then. If you look at the ads Capitol ran in teen mags in '64 they still used photos with David in them. Al was the least known member of the group by far. Now we think of him as such an institution because we've had decades to process him into the BB's story. But in the context of 1965 he was still thought of as the "replacement" guy...the new guy who took over for David Marks.

[Dave in KC]

This IS NOT a knock against Daivid Marks. I wouldn't know him if he rang my doorbell. But the fact that Alan replaced him is very important. God Bless Alan Jardine.

[Rocker]

Well, he replaced Al and later Al replaced him.

BTW Jon, thanks for the info that Al wasn't a full member until the 70s.

[Bill]

Thanks for you thoughts on this, Jon and others. At the risk of sounding like Oliver Stone, though, your disclosure that the non-family members  were just nominally paid sidemen confirms my suspicions.  The fact remains that Al WAS on the cover of ASL- but was not on that of Summer Days.  That Bruce happened to be on the boat that day and was photographed with the others in virtually the same shot  that was on the cover (but without him) leads me to believe that he was placed in the wings just in case Al didn't recover from his "flu."  I'll bet that, in those days, Bruce was thrilled just to be added to the group and was less demanding financially than a founder like Al would have been, particularly with the vocal of a just-out BB top ten single under Al's belt.  Didn't the Mamas and Papas pull the same thing on Michelle, changing an album cover to replace her face with that of her successor and telling her that they would release it to put her in her place?  Nice folks all around.

[c-man]

Murry was already gone in spring of '64 as people have stated. The Rhonda session was a one off thing...he was just invited down for that session and everyone knew it was a mistake. Its not like he was hanging around the studio or influencing the photo shoots all the time. Rhonda may have been the first session he attended since the I Get Around session when he was fired. And I doubt he was welcome back after that for many years.

Jon, Murry was there (invited or otherwise...probably otherwise...) to "help" produce the vocal sessions for some "Beach Boys Today!" cuts ("Do You Wanna Dance", "Please Let Me Wonder", and "In The Back Of My Mind").  I guess he was easier to get rid of as a manager than as a "producer".  As Pete Fornatale put it in to Dennis in '76, "How do you fire your dad"?.  As Dennis replied, about all they could do was say "Dad...see ya later!". 

[Jon Stebbins]

Thanks for you thoughts on this, Jon and others. At the risk of sounding like Oliver Stone, though, your disclosure that the non-family members  were just nominally paid sidemen confirms my suspicions.  The fact remains that Al WAS on the cover of ASL- but was not on that of Summer Days.  That Bruce happened to be on the boat that day and was photographed with the others in virtually the same shot  that was on the cover (but without him) leads me to believe that he was placed in the wings just in case Al didn't recover from his "flu."  I'll bet that, in those days, Bruce was thrilled just to be added to the group and was less demanding financially than a founder like Al would have been, particularly with the vocal of a just-out BB top ten single under Al's belt.  Didn't the Mamas and Papas pull the same thing on Michelle, changing an album cover to replace her face with that of her successor and telling her that they would release it to put her in her place?  Nice folks all around.

Hope I didn't give you the impression David was a "nominally paid sideman". He was a fully contracted 20% share holder of the BB's franchise, equal to Brian, Dennis Carl and Mike...according to the Beach Boys, Capitol and L.A. superior court. What happened later, after he left, is what denied him his share of the BB's fortune. David got screwed on the way out, Al got screwed on the way back in. Al was never an equal part of the Capitol contract and was paid by the BB's as a salaried sideman only...until the '70's. He says this was his punishment for leaving the first time.

[Bill]

Thanks for that clarification, Jon. Looks like, once the money really started flowing, Murry and company had an agonizing reappraisal of who got to share the dough (particularly if his name wasn't Wilson or Love). So, David Marks (and his 20% share) were out, replaced by a returning and chastened Al, fresh from dental school and willing to take just a salary to get back in.  Voila: the three Wilsons and Love each get upped 5%! Even if Murry was out as manager, this familial philosophy seems to have survived. 
Interesting that, after Rhonda and Al's bout with the "flu," (other than the British Then She Kissed Me from Summer Days), he didn't sang lead on a BB single until 1970's Cottonfields, well after the hitmaking, money machine years had become but a fond memory. They weren't going to make that mistake again, I'll bet.  I still think that there's a very interesting story behind Al's absence from (and Bruce's near inclusion on) the Summer Days cover, and that it is more financial than intestinal!
Any chance someone could ask Al or Bruce what the real deal was?

[Rocker]

Interesting that, after Rhonda and Al's bout with the "flu," (other than the British Then She Kissed Me from Summer Days), he didn't sang lead on a BB single until 1970's Cottonfields, well after the hitmaking, money machine years had become but a fond memory.

Al was supposed to sing lead on Smile's "Vege-tables" afaik.

Any chance someone could ask Al or Bruce what the real deal was?

I don't think Bruce will say somethin' about it; I wouldn't if I may have been in a position to replace someone else. But he posts at the BBBritain-Board so maybe someone could ask him.

[Howie Edelson]

Hey Jon -- although its (somewhat) easy enough to figure out the songs that Dennis performed during his solo spots from say '71 through '73, I was wondering if you -- or anybody -- has a definitive list of group songs that hey played keyboards on. There are so many shots of him on keys -- the one where he's up front wearing that tuxedo from '73 comes to mind, as well as him playing (I think) a Moog in the gatefold of of the IN CONCERT LP. Any ideas?

[Zander]

I still think that there's a very interesting story behind Al's absence from (and Bruce's near inclusion on) the Summer Days cover, and that it is more financial than intestinal!
Any chance someone could ask Al or Bruce what the real deal was?

I thought Bruce wasn't on the Summer Days album cover for the same reason he wasn't on the Pet Sounds, i.e. because Bruce and Terry Melcher had a deal with RCA for the Rip Chords etc he wasn't contractually allowed on any other artists' covers as that would be seen to be promoting a rivals cover. I'm sure Bruce has talked about this also.

In the same instance you could also say why wasn't Dean Torrence on the Party cover as he sang on Barbara Ann, but as he was with Jan & Dean, contracts etc....

As for the Al comments, I always thought it was flu and nothing else...? Seemed a stupid idea though to have member of the band missing from the cover of the Beach Boys latest release whatever happened... 

[Jon Stebbins]

Hey Jon -- although its (somewhat) easy enough to figure out the songs that Dennis performed during his solo spots from say '71 through '73, I was wondering if you -- or anybody -- has a definitive list of group songs that hey played keyboards on. There are so many shots of him on keys -- the one where he's up front wearing that tuxedo from '73 comes to mind, as well as him playing (I think) a Moog in the gatefold of of the IN CONCERT LP. Any ideas?

Hey Howie...nice question again. I think some ambitious fan with an Ian Rusten type of appetite for detail might enjoy compiling such a list. If its in the studio I'm sure the list of songs DW playd keys on would be incredibly interesting. Seems he did a lot of that in the early to late seventies...especially on his own stuff. POB of course is all him...every damn keyboard on there I think.

In concert is a mixed bag. Two songs that stand out as routine Dennis keyboard songs are Heroes and Villains and Help Me Rhonda. He was playing key on Heroes live pretty much throughout the seventies...and Rhonda was almost his own keyboard showcase from the mid seventies until they made him stop. There's a few of those shows where Dennis was nearly swallowed alive by Carli Munoz' afro...but he still pulled of the Rhonda solo with no sight line and very little oxygen.

A classic example of Dennis on the piano in concert is Only With You circa '72. He also does a lot of that great boogie woogie stuff on things like What's Wrong, Got To Know The Woman, All I Want to Do etc...

Adrian Baker of all people told a great story in 2005 about how Dennis used to play the piano for him, and DW was usually drunk and at first Adrian listened politely but inside was thinking "the poor bugger he's really messed up"...but then he started listening to what was coming out of old Dennis...the beautiful chord changes and inversions, the unusual bass counters and the heartfelt passion in the songs. These were supposedly all originals that Dennis just was carrying around in his head in the couple of years before he died. Baker said they were stunning in their beauty, and he bet that few if any had been written down or recorded. And he said the songs were literally "pouring" out of Dennis. Enough to make you cry. 

[Susan]

...a lot of that great boogie woogie stuff on things like What's Wrong, Got To Know The Woman, All I Want to Do etc...

Cool stuff, guys.  Where did Dennis pick up that boogie-woogie style - from Brian, or from somewhere else?

[Jon Stebbins]

...a lot of that great boogie woogie stuff on things like What's Wrong, Got To Know The Woman, All I Want to Do etc...

Cool stuff, guys.  Where did Dennis pick up that boogie-woogie style - from Brian, or from somewhere else?

Hi Susan,
According to Dave Marks they all learned the boogie-woogie from Audree.

[Susan]

Thanks, Jon.  That was my guess.

And it must've been quite a scene, Audree teaching the boys to play boogie-woogie piano...!

[Rocker]

Jon, are there pictures of the Beach Boys featuring Brian, Dave AND Al ? If so, ill there be one of these in the new book?

[Jon Stebbins]

Yes, there are photos of the BB's in '63 with both Al and Dave. If anyone you know has the orig. sheet music for Surfer Girl there are several on there from Hawaii on the beach...this would be the only "official" use of BB's photos with that lineup. As you might imagine, photos of this lineup are very rare. We actually uncovered about a half dozen, most of them on stage with Al playing bass in place of Brian. Two of those will be in the book, one is a live shot, one is back stage. There are quite a few early BB's photos that will be published for the first time in the Lost Beach Boy book. One from early '63 with Mike, Brian, Dave, Jan and Dean that is just a knockout. Also a couple of great early shots of Carl and Dennis that have never been seen. There were over 150 photos to choose from that the publisher pared down to about 50 for the final product. They had to make some tough choices. We plan on releasing the rest of the photos that didn't make the book to the public at some point, in either a photo supplement book, or on our website. So you're all gonna see them either way.

[Rocker]

Sounds great. Thanks Jon !

[MBE]

Jon I want to say that I know I will really get to value David Marks to much higher degree after reading your book. Even your comments here on it have gotten me to realise how important he was.

[Bicyclerider]

If anyone wants to see and hear Dennis banging out a great boogie woogie piano solo during Help Me Rhonda, it's on the Good Vibrations Tour DVD (the TV special originally called It's Ok I believe).

[jane]

Jon--
I'm looking forward to your new book about David Marks! We've asked this before but now that you have another Beach Boy's book under your belt, any chance of a book about Carl? There's so much we don't know about him!

[Jon Stebbins]

Hi Jane,
No serious plans about tackling Carl in book form...however, you'll notice some interesting new insights into Carl in David's book, he obviously plays a big part in Dave's life. There's also a photo of a very young Carl in there that has never been seen before.

[MBE]

If your book on Dennis is any indication I will be very pleased with David's . I know there are no plans for you to do Carl or the others, but you have a good perspecitve on things, and I agree with most of your opinions musically.

[John]

I always thought Bruce would make a good book subject. He's a dichotomy; does all that loungey, Barry Manilow style muzak but was friends with Keith Moon. And of course the reports of him with the fans. He's got plenty of good stories that need expanding upon - the murder on his first day in the business that occured in front of him, the pre-BB music scene, the London trip in '66 with the Beatles and the Who, the BBs trying to replace him [was we aware?], the clashes with Reilly...I'd be more likely to read the book than listen to the song "Endless Harmony"...