When did Brian stop using the Baldwin?

[monicker]

I love the organ overdubs on H&V. I think it fits the song really well.

[Jay]

What kind of guitar is Al playing in that group picture? The body looks like a Gibson, but the neck sure doesn't. Maybe it's just the odd angle of the picture.

That is a Fender Coronado Electric XII, 12-string electric guitar. The giveaway is the headstock,  which looks like a hockey stick - that's a trademark of 60's Fender 12-string electrics. It looks like a Gibson or Epiphone because Fender was looking for a design to compete with Gibson's 335 thin semi-hollowbody design which was popular, as was Epiphone's. Notice the headstock color matches the body, that was a custom-color option too which not many of them got.  It's not a really valuable guitar model to collectors and not really a good playing guitar either by their reputation, but I think collectors like the look and the colors of them.

I wonder what happened to that guitar, has anyone ever seen Al playing it since Hawaii 1967?

Thanks for that info.  I think Elvis played one of these guitars on his 1968 Comeback special. I could never figure out why he was playing a Gibson with a Fender neck. 

[Roger Ryan]

I love the organ overdubs on H&V. I think it fits the song really well.

I agree with Al on this..."Heroes & Villains" just became a soupy mess. It wasn't all the organ's fault, but the re-recording done at the house and the mixing. As for that organ, I think the little fills at the end of the verses are charming, but the heavy chords on the chorus ruin the "Bicycle Rider" melody.

[Micha]

Brian insisted on using it on every song (which in Al's mind spoiled the recording of H&V)

I'm pretty certain that there's no organ on both Vegetables and Whistle In.

I listened to the Party album today, and I thought that it sounded as loose as Smiley Smile does. Was Brian going for a more unpolished sound à la Party with Smiley Smile?

[guitarfool2002]

What kind of guitar is Al playing in that group picture? The body looks like a Gibson, but the neck sure doesn't. Maybe it's just the odd angle of the picture.

That is a Fender Coronado Electric XII, 12-string electric guitar. The giveaway is the headstock,  which looks like a hockey stick - that's a trademark of 60's Fender 12-string electrics. It looks like a Gibson or Epiphone because Fender was looking for a design to compete with Gibson's 335 thin semi-hollowbody design which was popular, as was Epiphone's. Notice the headstock color matches the body, that was a custom-color option too which not many of them got.  It's not a really valuable guitar model to collectors and not really a good playing guitar either by their reputation, but I think collectors like the look and the colors of them.

I wonder what happened to that guitar, has anyone ever seen Al playing it since Hawaii 1967?

Thanks for that info.  I think Elvis played one of these guitars on his 1968 Comeback special. I could never figure out why he was playing a Gibson with a Fender neck. 

Not to derail the discussion too far, but I love talking about this kind of thing! The guitar you're talking about from the '68 Comeback show was a Hagstrom Viking. It's a neat Elvis story for guitar fans, on how he came to play that in the TV special. The guitar belonged to session guitarist Al Casey, the same guy that's on handfuls of Beach Boys songs. He showed up to do a session with his crate full of instruments, and Hagstrom had given that Viking to Casey, so it was in his case but he didn't use it too much if at all for sessions. Elvis spotted the guitar and loved the look, much like Al Jardine's red Coronado it does have a striking design and color which is probably better than the guitar actually sounded and played! They thought it would look great on camera, so Elvis borrowed it from Al Casey for that show.

It's easy to mistake that Hagstrom for a Fender, especially with the Fender headstock and Coronado-style body. Here is a link to more info on that particular guitar:

http://www.scottymoore.net/ep68hagstrom.html

What I'm thinking after yesterday about Al Jardine's Fender Coronado XII is that it was a brand new model and design in 66-67, and at that same time the Beach Boys were prominent endorsers of Fender equipment, appearing in both print ads and radio-TV spots. Part of those endorsements included Fender offering the newest models to the artists to play and be seen and photographed with, so I'm guessing Jardine's custom-color 12-string may have been a result of that endorsement.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

What I'm thinking after yesterday about Al Jardine's Fender Coronado XII is that it was a brand new model and design in 66-67, and at that same time the Beach Boys were prominent endorsers of Fender equipment, appearing in both print ads and radio-TV spots. Part of those endorsements included Fender offering the newest models to the artists to play and be seen and photographed with, so I'm guessing Jardine's custom-color 12-string may have been a result of that endorsement.

And yet it was around this time that the band briefly got pretty into those Hofner and Hofner-copy basses, departing from the classical Fender Bass...

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Brian insisted on using it on every song (which in Al's mind spoiled the recording of H&V)

I'm pretty certain that there's no organ on both Vegetables and Whistle In.

I listened to the Party album today, and I thought that it sounded as loose as Smiley Smile does. Was Brian going for a more unpolished sound à la Party with Smiley Smile?

I think there's an attempted organ overdub on Vegetables on the SOT set?  So they might have at least tried it on everything.

[monicker]

It’s curious that with a newly acquired compact theater/cinema style organ, Brian consistently chose such a puny sound, which doesn’t even remotely resemble the organ’s typical sound, or come close to its full sound capabilities. Not that i think he would suddenly turn the Beach Boys into a Korla Pandit sounding record, but you’d think he’d have used a bigger sound than anything that ended up on Smiley Smile and Wild Honey, something more along the lines of the sound of the solo in When a Man Needs a Woman. I remember being really surprised when i first learned that the Baldwin was what was on those two records because, to me, it sounded cheap and tiny, like a Gem or something. This is not a complaint at all, as i really love the organ sounds and how they’re used on those two albums. It’s just an odd choice, which, of course, makes perfect sense in Beach Boys universe. 

[rogerlancelot]

Does anybody here know how Brian got the organ sounds on "A Day In The Life Of A Tree"? Sounds like a pipe organ or large theater organ. It certainly couldn't have been the Baldwin. Fantastic organ sounds by the way!

[rogerlancelot]

Brian insisted on using it on every song (which in Al's mind spoiled the recording of H&V)

I'm pretty certain that there's no organ on both Vegetables and Whistle In.

I listened to the Party album today, and I thought that it sounded as loose as Smiley Smile does. Was Brian going for a more unpolished sound à la Party with Smiley Smile?

I think there's an attempted organ overdub on Vegetables on the SOT set?  So they might have at least tried it on everything.

SOT 18 Track 20 (titled "Bass And Piano Track"). Piano in left channel, bass in the middle and organ in the right. Not much of an attempt really but it's there.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Does anybody here know how Brian got the organ sounds on "A Day In The Life Of A Tree"? Sounds like a pipe organ or large theater organ. It certainly couldn't have been the Baldwin. Fantastic organ sounds by the way!

Basically, they brought in a pipe organ.  Desper details it in his book.

[DonnyL]

It’s curious that with a newly acquired compact theater/cinema style organ, Brian consistently chose such a puny sound, which doesn’t even remotely resemble the organ’s typical sound, or come close to its full sound capabilities. Not that i think he would suddenly turn the Beach Boys into a Korla Pandit sounding record, but you’d think he’d have used a bigger sound than anything that ended up on Smiley Smile and Wild Honey, something more along the lines of the sound of the solo in When a Man Needs a Woman. I remember being really surprised when i first learned that the Baldwin was what was on those two records because, to me, it sounded cheap and tiny, like a Gem or something. This is not a complaint at all, as i really love the organ sounds and how they’re used on those two albums. It’s just an odd choice, which, of course, makes perfect sense in Beach Boys universe.  

i believe that's partially because it was a transistor organ (like a combo organ ... vox, farfisa, etc), not a hammond "tonewheel" organ.  but more importantly, Brian didn't use a leslie speaker on smiley smile or wild honey (for the most part, as far as i can hear).  the leslie returns on some tracks on friends ("when a man needs a woman").  

interesting in that "Smiley" also didn't really use much echo either, and didn't double track the vocals as much ... sometime attributed to the lack of a chamber, but i believe this to be more of a stylistic choice ... the new "dry" sounds continues through WILD HONEY and FRIENDS.

[SMiLE Brian]

Brian should bring back the Baldwin and have him or one of his band members use it. The organ is so neat to listen to on smiley smile and Lei'd in Hawaii.

[Mikie]

I like the Hammond B-3 with the Leslie speaker option.

[Micha]

Brian insisted on using it on every song (which in Al's mind spoiled the recording of H&V)

I'm pretty certain that there's no organ on both Vegetables and Whistle In.

I listened to the Party album today, and I thought that it sounded as loose as Smiley Smile does. Was Brian going for a more unpolished sound à la Party with Smiley Smile?

I think there's an attempted organ overdub on Vegetables on the SOT set?  So they might have at least tried it on everything.

SOT 18 Track 20 (titled "Bass And Piano Track"). Piano in left channel, bass in the middle and organ in the right. Not much of an attempt really but it's there.

I never had listened to that before. You're right, this can hardly even be called an attempt and is not the basic track that was eventually used. But it is an interesting step towards the final version. It even seems to still use Sleep A Lot as the tag.

[monicker]

On the subject of When a Man Needs a Woman--apologies for steering this thing in a completely different direction--putting aside the dubious ideas of complementarianism that are conveyed in the lyrics, is anyone else bothered by Brian having designated the sex of the baby a boy before knowing that he would, in fact, have two daughters? This has always bothered me. I imagine Brian probably didn't even consider the possibility that they might not even have a boy. Musically, the song is so great, but lyrically, in my opinion, it is actually one the most cringe worthy, embarrassing, and juvenile in their catalog. Wait, is that saying a lot or not saying much at all, considering the lyrical quality of their output? Granted, i'm not familiar with anything past 1977. I don't know, i kind of wish the song was about apples or a toothbrush or something. But then it wouldn't really be the Beach Boys, would it. Or maybe it would, who knows. I'm curious, actually, about the different ways that you folks around here justify to yourselves, in general, the egregious lyrics that are set to earth shattering, mind blowing music. I can't figure out how i myself do it, which is why i ask.

[Chris Brown]

I love the organ overdubs on H&V. I think it fits the song really well.

I agree with Al on this..."Heroes & Villains" just became a soupy mess. It wasn't all the organ's fault, but the re-recording done at the house and the mixing. As for that organ, I think the little fills at the end of the verses are charming, but the heavy chords on the chorus ruin the "Bicycle Rider" melody.

I'm with Al too - all the dynamics and excitement of the "Cantina" version were sucked out of the single mix.  Brian had worked so long and hard on the track, spent so much time fishing for inspiration that he lost all objectivity and actually thought that he was improving the track by taking it to the home studio and overdubbing the Baldwin (again, not the only culprit, more symptomatic of the bigger issue of finishing the recording at the home studio).

It's unfortunate too, because I think he had all the "right" pieces already recorded, but he could never stitch them together in a way that satisfied him for too long, and he just didn't know when to stop recording/re-recording and adding to the mess.

[Myk Luhv]

I don't really find the lyrics to "When A Man Needs A Woman" surprising given the social context of pop music then (and still now), let alone the wider culture too. Most Americans still overwhelmingly desire male children and it is the assumed default even today. (Of course, it's not as if you could ever say The Beach Boys or any of them are feminists either but then neither are most people!) Nevertheless, I do find it awkward to listen to considering he ended up having two daughters... Plus, it's heteronormative and all that -- though I do still like the song. It's not as awful as "Hey Little Tomboy" at least~

[hypehat]

I find it kinda funny that he wrote that and had two daughters....

I don't think it's very horrifying, really. Hell, I'd like a son. I'd like a daughter too, but they are two different relationships, though still obviously loved by the father as their child. You could very well say that Brian wanted a better relationship with his own son than Murry had with him, although that's ridiculous speculation. As is the topic at hand...

[Jay]

What kind of guitar is Al playing in that group picture? The body looks like a Gibson, but the neck sure doesn't. Maybe it's just the odd angle of the picture.

That is a Fender Coronado Electric XII, 12-string electric guitar. The giveaway is the headstock,  which looks like a hockey stick - that's a trademark of 60's Fender 12-string electrics. It looks like a Gibson or Epiphone because Fender was looking for a design to compete with Gibson's 335 thin semi-hollowbody design which was popular, as was Epiphone's. Notice the headstock color matches the body, that was a custom-color option too which not many of them got.  It's not a really valuable guitar model to collectors and not really a good playing guitar either by their reputation, but I think collectors like the look and the colors of them.

I wonder what happened to that guitar, has anyone ever seen Al playing it since Hawaii 1967?

Thanks for that info.   I think Elvis played one of these guitars on his 1968 Comeback special. I could never figure out why he was playing a Gibson with a Fender neck.  

Not to derail the discussion too far, but I love talking about this kind of thing! The guitar you're talking about from the '68 Comeback show was a Hagstrom Viking. It's a neat Elvis story for guitar fans, on how he came to play that in the TV special. The guitar belonged to session guitarist Al Casey, the same guy that's on handfuls of Beach Boys songs. He showed up to do a session with his crate full of instruments, and Hagstrom had given that Viking to Casey, so it was in his case but he didn't use it too much if at all for sessions. Elvis spotted the guitar and loved the look, much like Al Jardine's red Coronado it does have a striking design and color which is probably better than the guitar actually sounded and played! They thought it would look great on camera, so Elvis borrowed it from Al Casey for that show.

It's easy to mistake that Hagstrom for a Fender, especially with the Fender headstock and Coronado-style body. Here is a link to more info on that particular guitar:

http://www.scottymoore.net/ep68hagstrom.html

What I'm thinking after yesterday about Al Jardine's Fender Coronado XII is that it was a brand new model and design in 66-67, and at that same time the Beach Boys were prominent endorsers of Fender equipment, appearing in both print ads and radio-TV spots. Part of those endorsements included Fender offering the newest models to the artists to play and be seen and photographed with, so I'm guessing Jardine's custom-color 12-string may have been a result of that endorsement.

Thanks very much for that info! I always thought that guitar did look cool on the '68 Comeback Special. Do you happen to know of a good example of a song that has a Hangstrom Viking or Fender Coronado XII being played? Before a read about it in this thread, I hadn't heard of either guitar. I'm kind of curios about some of the more obscure guitars, like the Fender Jaguar, Mustang, Du Sonic, etc.

[Jay]

Does anybody here know how Brian got the organ sounds on "A Day In The Life Of A Tree"? Sounds like a pipe organ or large theater organ. It certainly couldn't have been the Baldwin. Fantastic organ sounds by the way!

One of my all time favorite Beach Boys moments is in "A Day In The Life of A Tree". I love the organ changes during the line "But now my branches suffer". I call it the "silent movie organ". 

[guitarfool2002]

What kind of guitar is Al playing in that group picture? The body looks like a Gibson, but the neck sure doesn't. Maybe it's just the odd angle of the picture.

That is a Fender Coronado Electric XII, 12-string electric guitar. The giveaway is the headstock,  which looks like a hockey stick - that's a trademark of 60's Fender 12-string electrics. It looks like a Gibson or Epiphone because Fender was looking for a design to compete with Gibson's 335 thin semi-hollowbody design which was popular, as was Epiphone's. Notice the headstock color matches the body, that was a custom-color option too which not many of them got.  It's not a really valuable guitar model to collectors and not really a good playing guitar either by their reputation, but I think collectors like the look and the colors of them.

I wonder what happened to that guitar, has anyone ever seen Al playing it since Hawaii 1967?

Thanks for that info.   I think Elvis played one of these guitars on his 1968 Comeback special. I could never figure out why he was playing a Gibson with a Fender neck.  

Not to derail the discussion too far, but I love talking about this kind of thing! The guitar you're talking about from the '68 Comeback show was a Hagstrom Viking. It's a neat Elvis story for guitar fans, on how he came to play that in the TV special. The guitar belonged to session guitarist Al Casey, the same guy that's on handfuls of Beach Boys songs. He showed up to do a session with his crate full of instruments, and Hagstrom had given that Viking to Casey, so it was in his case but he didn't use it too much if at all for sessions. Elvis spotted the guitar and loved the look, much like Al Jardine's red Coronado it does have a striking design and color which is probably better than the guitar actually sounded and played! They thought it would look great on camera, so Elvis borrowed it from Al Casey for that show.

It's easy to mistake that Hagstrom for a Fender, especially with the Fender headstock and Coronado-style body. Here is a link to more info on that particular guitar:

http://www.scottymoore.net/ep68hagstrom.html

What I'm thinking after yesterday about Al Jardine's Fender Coronado XII is that it was a brand new model and design in 66-67, and at that same time the Beach Boys were prominent endorsers of Fender equipment, appearing in both print ads and radio-TV spots. Part of those endorsements included Fender offering the newest models to the artists to play and be seen and photographed with, so I'm guessing Jardine's custom-color 12-string may have been a result of that endorsement.

Thanks very much for that info! I always thought that guitar did look cool on the '68 Comeback Special. Do you happen to know of a good example of a song that has a Hangstrom Viking or Fender Coronado XII being played? Before a read about it in this thread, I hadn't heard of either guitar. I'm kind of curios about some of the more obscure guitars, like the Fender Jaguar, Mustang, Du Sonic, etc.

Offhand I can't think of any specific studio songs which used either guitar for an example, and that might say a lot about the opinions players have of them! They may be the most cool looking guitars and the most visually striking designs but they usually don't play as well and they don't sound as good overall as their more familiar counterparts like the Gibson 335, Strat/Tele, etc. But some modern players use them and they sound just fine, at least live where the details aren't as important as in the studio. Recently I've seen some guitarists and singer-songwriters with Coronados and other offbeat guitars like that. I don't know if it's a trend like Cobain started with the Mustangs and Jaguars, or Jack White started with his pawn shop guitars. They do look cool.

[harveyw]

What kind of guitar is Al playing in that group picture? The body looks like a Gibson, but the neck sure doesn't. Maybe it's just the odd angle of the picture.

That is a Fender Coronado Electric XII, 12-string electric guitar. The giveaway is the headstock,  which looks like a hockey stick - that's a trademark of 60's Fender 12-string electrics. It looks like a Gibson or Epiphone because Fender was looking for a design to compete with Gibson's 335 thin semi-hollowbody design which was popular, as was Epiphone's. Notice the headstock color matches the body, that was a custom-color option too which not many of them got.  It's not a really valuable guitar model to collectors and not really a good playing guitar either by their reputation, but I think collectors like the look and the colors of them.

I wonder what happened to that guitar, has anyone ever seen Al playing it since Hawaii 1967?

Thanks for that info.   I think Elvis played one of these guitars on his 1968 Comeback special. I could never figure out why he was playing a Gibson with a Fender neck.  

Not to derail the discussion too far, but I love talking about this kind of thing! The guitar you're talking about from the '68 Comeback show was a Hagstrom Viking. It's a neat Elvis story for guitar fans, on how he came to play that in the TV special. The guitar belonged to session guitarist Al Casey, the same guy that's on handfuls of Beach Boys songs. He showed up to do a session with his crate full of instruments, and Hagstrom had given that Viking to Casey, so it was in his case but he didn't use it too much if at all for sessions. Elvis spotted the guitar and loved the look, much like Al Jardine's red Coronado it does have a striking design and color which is probably better than the guitar actually sounded and played! They thought it would look great on camera, so Elvis borrowed it from Al Casey for that show.

It's easy to mistake that Hagstrom for a Fender, especially with the Fender headstock and Coronado-style body. Here is a link to more info on that particular guitar:

http://www.scottymoore.net/ep68hagstrom.html

What I'm thinking after yesterday about Al Jardine's Fender Coronado XII is that it was a brand new model and design in 66-67, and at that same time the Beach Boys were prominent endorsers of Fender equipment, appearing in both print ads and radio-TV spots. Part of those endorsements included Fender offering the newest models to the artists to play and be seen and photographed with, so I'm guessing Jardine's custom-color 12-string may have been a result of that endorsement.

Thanks very much for that info! I always thought that guitar did look cool on the '68 Comeback Special. Do you happen to know of a good example of a song that has a Hangstrom Viking or Fender Coronado XII being played? Before a read about it in this thread, I hadn't heard of either guitar. I'm kind of curios about some of the more obscure guitars, like the Fender Jaguar, Mustang, Du Sonic, etc.

I'm inclined to think that Al's guitar is actually a Baldwin 712.
http://www.terrym.co.uk/1website/page17.htm

[Mark H.]

Does it come with the organ as a matched set?   

[Andrew G. Doe]

Does anybody here know how Brian got the organ sounds on "A Day In The Life Of A Tree"? Sounds like a pipe organ or large theater organ. It certainly couldn't have been the Baldwin. Fantastic organ sounds by the way!

Sure - Steve Desper explained when I interviewed him back in '85. I'll dig it out and post the relevant bits. There's a picture of said organ in David Leaf's book, the one with Carl sat on the floor next to it, p. 169 of the 1985 edition. It's a pump organ, not the Baldwin.