Time To Get Alone?

[David Kennedy]

I read somewhere that Stephen Desper said that the version of "Time To Get Alone" on 20/20 was re-recorded and not the original recording from late 1967. Is he talking about the version on the Hawthorne disk?

[buddhahat]

I read somewhere that Stephen Desper said that the version of "Time To Get Alone" on 20/20 was re-recorded and not the original recording from late 1967. Is he talking about the version on the Hawthorne disk?

I haven't personally done an a/b on the 2 versions but I think the general consensus is that the wild honey era backing track and 20/20 tracks sound remarkably similar and that the work that was done during the 20/20 sessions was over the existing BW track from 67.

[hypehat]

are you getting the BB's and Redwood versions confused wrt re-recording, perchance?

[c-man]

are you getting the BB's and Redwood versions confused wrt re-recording, perchance?

Naw, that's exactly what Desper said....a re-recording.  He said that The Boys "tracked over" the top of Brian's original track for the "Redwood" version...meaning they used it as a guide and actually played their own instruments over the top, kind of like tracing someone else's drawing on a fresh sheet of paper.  Problem is, someone DID do an A/B comparison, actually putting wave graphs of the two versions side-by-side...and they were identical.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I remember hearing that and distinctly picking up differences in the opposing drum tracks.

[David Kennedy]

So with the Redwood version being the original track, is the Hawthorne version the one from 1967 that Desper is talking about or is there another version out there besides Hawthorne and 20/20?

[CarlTheVoice]

TTGA is my all time favourite song, not just from the Beach Boys, so I'm very interested to see where this post ends up! I have 3 versions of this and love the 20/20 and Hawthorne ones for different reasons. The harmony at the end of the Hawthorne version is heavenly and I'm trying very hard to pick out Carl's part in it - I need to know if it's him or Bruce! Or anyone else for that matter!

[Matt Bielewicz]

I'm guessing (and it's no more than that...) that both the main Beach Boys versions (20/20 and the Hawthorne one) used multitracks in different stages of development for their creation.

Imagine you record some drums, guitar, piano and a bass on a multitrack tape. All the instruments are on their own tracks, maybe a stereo pair for the drums. Now imagine you make a multitrack clone of that tape, so that all of the instruments are still on their own channel on the new tape. Then you go and overdub a whole bunch of different stuff — strings, various vocal overdubs, harpsichord, trumpets etc on further open tracks on each tape... but you put *different* overdubs on to each multitrack tape. When each tape is finally mixed down, you could end up with songs that sound totally different — but the drums in each one would still be the same basic performance.

I suspect something like this happened with Time To Get Alone, although it's probably even more complicated than that. Again, I don't know for sure that this is what happened (and it's ages since I listened to TTGA with anything like forensic ears, so my recollection of what belongs with which version is probably hopelessly confused), but you can imagine it might have been something like the following...

The Redwood multitrack tape is recorded in Summer 1967, with drums and bass and strings and trumpets and Redwood's vocals.

In Autumn 67, The Beach Boys take the Redwood multitrack tape, erase the Redwood vocals and record some of their own (changing some, but not all of the lyrics in the process). Maybe they add some more instruments. As per the extended liner notes released at the time of the original Hawthorne CD, we know that they made a reduction mix to make way for more instruments on the multitrack, and nearly finished this version in 1967 for Wild Honey, but they didn't quite.

Later, during the sessions for 20/20, they make another copy or reduction mix of the multitrack as it stood when they stopped working before, redo some of the vocals again (changing some more of the lyrics in the process), add new string parts, edit out the bridge with the trombone, trumpets and the whistling, and re-edit the arrangement near the end of the song to remove the 'dead stop' featured near the end of the Redwood version. Finally, they mix it, and it goes out on 20/20.

Way, WAY later, during the production of the Hawthorne set, the earlier Beach Boys multitracks are found and all the parts that differ from the 20/20 version are noted, like the different lyrics and the whistling bridge. Some of these are restored to the song, and a new mix is done from scratch, comprising parts that were never all on one multitrack at one time during the 60s, and could never have been made then.

So you end up with three different versions of the song, all of which have SOME parts and performances in common (like the drums, some of the keyboards and some of the strings), but also have a lot of significant differences: different vocals, extra percussion maybe, perhaps a different bass performance... and so on.

A bit like using the SMiLE Heroes and Villains backing track, but nixing the SMiLE-era vocals in favour of performances recorded in the emptied-out pool at Brian's house to create the H&V 45 version. Same original backing track, but with different vocals.

Like I say, I don't know if that's *exactly* what happened with Time To Get Alone, but it's one explanation for the various suspiciously similar sounding versions we have now. It's also consistent with Mr Desper's recollections; the band 'tracked over' the original multitrack, adding their own performances to some that were used in the Redwood version. And it's also consistent with the idea that the Beach Boys 'stole' the Redwood track (but it doesn't mention that they added more stuff to it of their own before releasing their version...)

If this *is* true, it also means that everyone who has posted on this subject so far is right to some extent. In the interests of board harmony, this is therefore clearly the best possible theory.

MattB

PS I know there's yet *another* Time To Get Alone mix - the recent stereo one. But if I remember rightly, wasn't that just a new stereo mix designed to sound as close as possible to the 20/20 version (ie. same lyrics, same song structure - so no whistling or trumpets)? If so, that is similar to the 20/20 version in terms of its constituent parts, and simpler to understand.

[Been Too Long]

The Desper recorded version is completely different. It can be heard on SOT's Vol. 20, Disc 2, track 11. I no longer have access to this but from memory it's about only a minute long and falls apart in the second verse, track only, no vocals. It is a completely different arrangement in a different key. There is a thread on this board, somewhere, that talks about this in more detail. This is from the Friends era, produced by Carl, may have been done for contractual reasons. That being said, the Hawthorne, Redwood, and 20/20 versions ARE all the same track.

[Jeff]

I'm guessing (and it's no more than that...) that both the main Beach Boys versions (20/20 and the Hawthorne one) used multitracks in different stages of development for their creation.

Imagine you record some drums, guitar, piano and a bass on a multitrack tape. All the instruments are on their own tracks, maybe a stereo pair for the drums. Now imagine you make a multitrack clone of that tape, so that all of the instruments are still on their own channel on the new tape. Then you go and overdub a whole bunch of different stuff — strings, various vocal overdubs, harpsichord, trumpets etc on further open tracks on each tape... but you put *different* overdubs on to each multitrack tape. When each tape is finally mixed down, you could end up with songs that sound totally different — but the drums in each one would still be the same basic performance.

I suspect something like this happened with Time To Get Alone, although it's probably even more complicated than that. Again, I don't know for sure that this is what happened (and it's ages since I listened to TTGA with anything like forensic ears, so my recollection of what belongs with which version is probably hopelessly confused), but you can imagine it might have been something like the following...

The Redwood multitrack tape is recorded in Summer 1967, with drums and bass and strings and trumpets and Redwood's vocals.

In Autumn 67, The Beach Boys take the Redwood multitrack tape, erase the Redwood vocals and record some of their own (changing some, but not all of the lyrics in the process). Maybe they add some more instruments. As per the extended liner notes released at the time of the original Hawthorne CD, we know that they made a reduction mix to make way for more instruments on the multitrack, and nearly finished this version in 1967 for Wild Honey, but they didn't quite.

Later, during the sessions for 20/20, they make another copy or reduction mix of the multitrack as it stood when they stopped working before, redo some of the vocals again (changing some more of the lyrics in the process), add new string parts, edit out the bridge with the trombone, trumpets and the whistling, and re-edit the arrangement near the end of the song to remove the 'dead stop' featured near the end of the Redwood version. Finally, they mix it, and it goes out on 20/20.

Way, WAY later, during the production of the Hawthorne set, the earlier Beach Boys multitracks are found and all the parts that differ from the 20/20 version are noted, like the different lyrics and the whistling bridge. Some of these are restored to the song, and a new mix is done from scratch, comprising parts that were never all on one multitrack at one time during the 60s, and could never have been made then.

So you end up with three different versions of the song, all of which have SOME parts and performances in common (like the drums, some of the keyboards and some of the strings), but also have a lot of significant differences: different vocals, extra percussion maybe, perhaps a different bass performance... and so on.

A bit like using the SMiLE Heroes and Villains backing track, but nixing the SMiLE-era vocals in favour of performances recorded in the emptied-out pool at Brian's house to create the H&V 45 version. Same original backing track, but with different vocals.

Like I say, I don't know if that's *exactly* what happened with Time To Get Alone, but it's one explanation for the various suspiciously similar sounding versions we have now. It's also consistent with Mr Desper's recollections; the band 'tracked over' the original multitrack, adding their own performances to some that were used in the Redwood version. And it's also consistent with the idea that the Beach Boys 'stole' the Redwood track (but it doesn't mention that they added more stuff to it of their own before releasing their version...)

If this *is* true, it also means that everyone who has posted on this subject so far is right to some extent. In the interests of board harmony, this is therefore clearly the best possible theory.

MattB

PS I know there's yet *another* Time To Get Alone mix - the recent stereo one. But if I remember rightly, wasn't that just a new stereo mix designed to sound as close as possible to the 20/20 version (ie. same lyrics, same song structure - so no whistling or trumpets)? If so, that is similar to the 20/20 version in terms of its constituent parts, and simpler to understand.

The Hawthorne liner notes say that the "basic track" was recorded  on 10/14/67 & 10/15/67, the lead vocals in 11/67, and the backing vocals in 10/68.

It sounds like the October '67 work was intended at the time for Redwood.

Does anyone have an opinion as to whether the 11/67 "lead vocals" were intended to be guide vocals for Redwood, or was that actually an attempt to record the song for the Beach Boys?

How about the tag that shows up on Hawthorne?  When was that recorded?

[ghost]

It's like a murder mystery - where did Danny's time to get alone go?

[Jeff]

I'm guessing (and it's no more than that...) that both the main Beach Boys versions (20/20 and the Hawthorne one) used multitracks in different stages of development for their creation.

Imagine you record some drums, guitar, piano and a bass on a multitrack tape. All the instruments are on their own tracks, maybe a stereo pair for the drums. Now imagine you make a multitrack clone of that tape, so that all of the instruments are still on their own channel on the new tape. Then you go and overdub a whole bunch of different stuff — strings, various vocal overdubs, harpsichord, trumpets etc on further open tracks on each tape... but you put *different* overdubs on to each multitrack tape. When each tape is finally mixed down, you could end up with songs that sound totally different — but the drums in each one would still be the same basic performance.

I suspect something like this happened with Time To Get Alone, although it's probably even more complicated than that. Again, I don't know for sure that this is what happened (and it's ages since I listened to TTGA with anything like forensic ears, so my recollection of what belongs with which version is probably hopelessly confused), but you can imagine it might have been something like the following...

The Redwood multitrack tape is recorded in Summer 1967, with drums and bass and strings and trumpets and Redwood's vocals.

In Autumn 67, The Beach Boys take the Redwood multitrack tape, erase the Redwood vocals and record some of their own (changing some, but not all of the lyrics in the process). Maybe they add some more instruments. As per the extended liner notes released at the time of the original Hawthorne CD, we know that they made a reduction mix to make way for more instruments on the multitrack, and nearly finished this version in 1967 for Wild Honey, but they didn't quite.

Later, during the sessions for 20/20, they make another copy or reduction mix of the multitrack as it stood when they stopped working before, redo some of the vocals again (changing some more of the lyrics in the process), add new string parts, edit out the bridge with the trombone, trumpets and the whistling, and re-edit the arrangement near the end of the song to remove the 'dead stop' featured near the end of the Redwood version. Finally, they mix it, and it goes out on 20/20.

Way, WAY later, during the production of the Hawthorne set, the earlier Beach Boys multitracks are found and all the parts that differ from the 20/20 version are noted, like the different lyrics and the whistling bridge. Some of these are restored to the song, and a new mix is done from scratch, comprising parts that were never all on one multitrack at one time during the 60s, and could never have been made then.

So you end up with three different versions of the song, all of which have SOME parts and performances in common (like the drums, some of the keyboards and some of the strings), but also have a lot of significant differences: different vocals, extra percussion maybe, perhaps a different bass performance... and so on.

A bit like using the SMiLE Heroes and Villains backing track, but nixing the SMiLE-era vocals in favour of performances recorded in the emptied-out pool at Brian's house to create the H&V 45 version. Same original backing track, but with different vocals.

Like I say, I don't know if that's *exactly* what happened with Time To Get Alone, but it's one explanation for the various suspiciously similar sounding versions we have now. It's also consistent with Mr Desper's recollections; the band 'tracked over' the original multitrack, adding their own performances to some that were used in the Redwood version. And it's also consistent with the idea that the Beach Boys 'stole' the Redwood track (but it doesn't mention that they added more stuff to it of their own before releasing their version...)

If this *is* true, it also means that everyone who has posted on this subject so far is right to some extent. In the interests of board harmony, this is therefore clearly the best possible theory.

MattB

PS I know there's yet *another* Time To Get Alone mix - the recent stereo one. But if I remember rightly, wasn't that just a new stereo mix designed to sound as close as possible to the 20/20 version (ie. same lyrics, same song structure - so no whistling or trumpets)? If so, that is similar to the 20/20 version in terms of its constituent parts, and simpler to understand.

The Hawthorne liner notes say that the "basic track" was recorded  on 10/14/67 & 10/15/67, the lead vocals in 11/67, and the backing vocals in 10/68.

It sounds like the October '67 work was intended at the time for Redwood.

Does anyone have an opinion as to whether the 11/67 "lead vocals" were intended to be guide vocals for Redwood, or was that actually an attempt to record the song for the Beach Boys?

How about the tag that shows up on Hawthorne?  When was that recorded?

Interesting questions.

I’m guessing that the Nov. 1967 lead vocals were an attempt to finish the song for Wild Honey.  If Brian had sung the lead, and if they had been rougher, maybe they would have been guide vocals.  But these are by Carl and sound relatively finished.

The tag presumably wasn’t recorded until late ’68, since there aren’t lead vocals on the tag.  It also doesn’t show up in the Redwood version.

[Matt Bielewicz]

But surely... the 'tag' mentioned above ISN'T a tag. It sounds to me as though it's just the backing vocals from earlier in the track with the instruments and lead vocal mixed out, and spliced onto the end of the song. Pretty easily done if you still have the multitracks with the vocals isolated on their own tracks, and the instruments on others.

All sorts of remixing tricks like this are possible if you still have the multis. This isn't the only place on the Hawthorne set where this kind of stuff is done. The acapella ending to the version of Sail On Sailor on 'Hawthorne' does a similar thing with the vocals. And there's the hidden track at the end of the set with the lovely backing vocals from the 'My Children Were Raised...' section of Heroes and Villains. Surely nobody thinks that these were separately recorded vocal-only pieces in the vault? Instead, they're surely from the multitracks of the original Time To Get Alone, Sail On Sailor and Heroes and Villains recordings, with the instruments and/or lead vocals mixed out where appropriate. I'd lay down good money on it.

MattB

[Loaf]

Can anyone make out those muffled vocals in the right channel of the chorus on the SOT set? Sounds like Brian sometimes, sometimes Marilyn, saying something like "Baby it's time", or "When day is done", or "Candy is fine."

[TdHabib]

I prefer the Hawthorne, CA version by a country mile. A lot clearer sounding recording and Brian sounds terrific on the chorus. Superb song.

[lance]

Can anyone make out those muffled vocals in the right channel of the chorus on the SOT set? Sounds like Brian sometimes, sometimes Marilyn, saying something like "Baby it's time", or "When day is done", or "Candy is fine."

Always thought it was baby its time.

[Jeff]

But surely... the 'tag' mentioned above ISN'T a tag. It sounds to me as though it's just the backing vocals from earlier in the track with the instruments and lead vocal mixed out, and spliced onto the end of the song. Pretty easily done if you still have the multitracks with the vocals isolated on their own tracks, and the instruments on others.

All sorts of remixing tricks like this are possible if you still have the multis. This isn't the only place on the Hawthorne set where this kind of stuff is done. The acapella ending to the version of Sail On Sailor on 'Hawthorne' does a similar thing with the vocals. And there's the hidden track at the end of the set with the lovely backing vocals from the 'My Children Were Raised...' section of Heroes and Villains. Surely nobody thinks that these were separately recorded vocal-only pieces in the vault? Instead, they're surely from the multitracks of the original Time To Get Alone, Sail On Sailor and Heroes and Villains recordings, with the instruments and/or lead vocals mixed out where appropriate. I'd lay down good money on it.

MattB

Can't quibble with anything you said.  It didn't really occur to me before that the tag is basically just manufactured, but of course you're right.

It's a little strange that they did this.  While I think most would say that it makes the song better, it takes the song away from being essentially a 1967 version of TTGA (with only the relatively subtle backing vocals being from '68) to one that is much more of a mishmash.

[CarlTheVoice]

I'd just like to say that it doesn't matter which version of TTGA I listen to, it is my fave song of all time. Heavenly music and unbelievable harmonies. I'm so glad the boys 'forced' Brian to give them this instead of Redwood getting it.

[juggler]

I'd just like to say that it doesn't matter which version of TTGA I listen to, it is my fave song of all time. Heavenly music and unbelievable harmonies. I'm so glad the boys 'forced' Brian to give them this instead of Redwood getting it.

Yeah, it's an absolute masterpiece.  Heartbreakingly beautiful.  I could go on and on.   For those fans who think that Brian had "lost it" after Smile's collapse, TTGA proves that months later he still very much "had it"... perhaps more of "it" than ever.  

[hypehat]

Cosign.

My personall favourite atm is the Hawthorne version - I prefer that version of the bridge (especially the whistling) and the way the chorus' progress from the solo Brian lead to the full strings and harmonies and whoa. Only thing is the acapella is a little bass-heavy, but then I guess the lead is the top note in that stack and they decided to leave it off.

[CarlTheVoice]

Juggler, I think it's probably the most underrated BB song there is! I want everyone to hear this and realise they weren't just about Surfin' USA. Hypehat, I loooove the harmonies at the end of the Hawthorne version.

[CarlTheVoice]

Just been listening to TTGA again, was in the best mood for it - being grumpy! I still think it's the best song ever and I still think it is heavenly. A lot of BB songs are heavenly/spiritual.

[JohnMill]

Just been listening to TTGA again, was in the best mood for it - being grumpy! I still think it's the best song ever and I still think it is heavenly. A lot of BB songs are heavenly/spiritual.

You know I've never been the biggest fan but I'll be darned if sometimes I don't find myself humming it absentmindedly.  "The pine scented air smells so good in the snow..."

Just great.

[Jon Stebbins]

Between the different variations, sessions and mutations of the orig. track, which with much subsequent work eventually resulted in the released BB's version on 20/20, and the unreleased '68 Carl produced version which is a completely different track and inferior to the released version...breath...between all the work that went into those TTGA's between '67 and '69, Alan Boyd once told me he believes TTGA was the Beach Boys song that the most recording effort or studio time went toward producing. The most attention given to any song in their history. That was a whoa moment for me...but he should know.

[CarlTheVoice]

Thanks Jon, that is really interesting! It doesn't really surprise me though, you can hear so many layers in that song. Knowing that info now makes me sad that it never became a hit. To spend hours on such a wonderful song and then it just sit there and be overlooked for so many years, it's a real shame. My best song ever, no doubt about that. I'd love to know more information on this song if anyone has it.