Musical relationship of Brian and Dennis

[the captain]

I see no-one tearing into Luther, who's been of the same opinion for years.

I think it is because of my good looks. But I could be wrong.

[monicker]

I wonder how old Monicker is!

A lot of "kids" weaned on the last 2 decades of music really can't seem to understand or appreciate anyone who's persona or vibe isn't insanely self-aware and ironic or simply aping some aesthetic that came from people who did if for real and meant it..... Therefore, someone like Dennis, for some people, is like trying to make them translate a novel written in Latin on the spot!

That said, we all have the right to our own opinions on this board. As a confessed Mike apologist, I should certainly not be throwing any stones.

I’m 32. But i’m really averse to my generation’s culture and tastes, and i particularly cannot stand the culture of irony. I also have little tolerance for musical pastiche. All these modern and contemporary bands who wear their BB influence on their sleeve...i run in the other direction and fast. The Beach Boys, by the way, are an anomaly in my music collection. It was neither being of age, nor via pop music of their time that lead me to them. I don’t care much for their contemporaries (with the notable and very big exception of girl groups). And, no, i don't like rock. If we’re going to theorize that it simply comes down to age and era, well, i mostly listen to stuff that is not only older than me, but older than anyone on this board, stuff that goes back hundreds of years, so it’s certainly not my age. One of the numerous reasons that i am obsessed with the boys is that their music sounds like nothing else that people tend to associate them with. They are truly exceptional. And i fell into the Beach Boys rabbit hole by way of the “weird,” atypical stuff, which inevitably lead me simultaneously backward and forward in their chronology.

My reaction to Dennis’ music--which, as i said before, i believe he’s the least typical Beach Boy--is not about being unfamiliar with its ethos. I just think it’s over-affected to the point that it’s saccharine and hard to swallow. I agree with Roger Ryan’s assessment regarding the oversimplified “I love you” approach--that was very well put. Dennis' whole approach to songwriting, to me, always sounded contrived, almost like he was overcompensating for something. It’s like how to write love ballads 101 by the books. It just doesn’t sound entirely sincere to me. I understand, of course, that Dennis very well could have been true to himself, but it’s hard for me to get beyond what to me sounds a bit inauthentic (hmmm...one of the words that define cheesy...how foolish and questionable of me...no need to reference that old fart though). And that’s not even mentioning that, on a strictly musical level, i find his compositions, arrangements, and production to be quite pedestrian. If i had to put it in the simplest terms possible, his music just sounds ugly to me. 

Vocally speaking, i get a lot of the same feeling from Carl. I love his singing up through Pet Sounds, with GOK being, i think, his last truly great lead vocal. Suddenly, though, during Smile (Wind Chimes) the beginnings of his over emotive singing style emerge, which carry on into Smiley. Then, oddly, he employs a radically different style for Wild Honey (which i love). He then goes even further into the sickly sweet style that would end up being his signature sound until the end. (As a side note, i think that both Dennis and Carl sounded like gold in the harmonic blend, so i am only speaking lead vocal here.) I remember reading something a while ago--if anyone knows it, please chime in and maybe point to the article--of either Brian talking about the GOK vocal session or someone else discussing it, and supposedly Brian kept telling Carl to just sing it “straight.” I love that. That’s how i’ve always told other singers to deliver their vocal when i get people to sing on my music, and that’s what i enjoy listening to, that's what resonates with me. You don’t have to go over the top to attain emotional depth. Do it straight and the emotion, if it’s there in the first place, will surely translate. Emotional music is emotional music is emotional music is emotional music, and if it’s going to work on an emotional level, that quality is embedded in the music already, so no need to exaggerate it and over emote vocally to try to resonate emotionally with the listener. I think doing so cheapens the whole thing. Compare all of Brian’s lead vocals to Carl and Dennis’, and, relatively speaking, they’re all done in a much more “straight” manner, and guess what, i am affected a hundred times more emotionally by those songs than anything Dennis and Carl related. Hell, Mike’s subtle delivery (in fact, as i write this, i am now realizing that that’s what it is--there is nothing subtle about Dennis’ music) on a song like All I Wanna Do, to me, is infinitely more emotionally impacting than anything that Dennis and Carl sang/wrote, because one isn’t being force fed blatant emotionality. Of course, though, look at the composition/arrangement/production of a song like All I Wanna Do and that settles that. We are all here, after all, because all things Beach Boys originate from this guy named Brian. And that’s not being a so-called “Brianista.”

Anyway, sorry for rambling. I'm just talking, not trying to condemn anyone or censure their opinion.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I'm going to be 33 on 13 Aug, for what it's worth, and I *also* hate much of today's music (since at least 2006, and for the most part earlier). Although I disagree with you about Dennis big-time*, I happen to share your opinion on Carl. Generally, I don't like his late 70s vocals- once on this very board I referred to him sounding like Peter Cetera on 'ludes.

*That said, you got it on Dennis...there was nothing subtle about him. If that's what turned you off, I can see that (don't agree, but do understand).


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Before anybody asks, Units was NOT banned; rather he asked me to delete his account.

[Jon Stebbins]

I see no-one tearing into Luther, who's been of the same opinion for years.

I think it is because of my good looks. But I could be wrong.

Yep. Its all because of your charming, good looking rebel archetype.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Monicker, you put you opinions across so clearly, intelligently, and well articulated, that I won't even address the few points I disagree with. And as the number one Mike fan around here, it's nice to see someone discussing the guy in an artistic sense rather than the same tired old insults. You are a good man!

[the captain]

I see no-one tearing into Luther, who's been of the same opinion for years.

I think it is because of my good looks. But I could be wrong.

Yep. Its all because of your charming, good looking rebel archetype.

Oh, Jon, you know me too well!

[Jonas]

edit

Before anybody asks, Units was NOT banned; rather he asked me to delete his account.

That's a shame. I wonder how come I never these messages.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

edit

Before anybody asks, Units was NOT banned; rather he asked me to delete his account.

That's a shame. I wonder how come I never these messages.

I think he just pm'd me...don't know if he pm'd you, Jason, or SH.

[Shady]

First casualty of the SMiLE 2011 era

[Bill Ed]

"Monicker" basically hijacked a thread which promised to be very interesting. What does this person's opinion of Dennis Wilson's music have to do with why Dennis and Brian didn't collaborate more often?  He should have started a thread entitled "Why I hate Dennis Wilson's music".  Then he and several other turds could have had a nice conversation without bothering those of us whose interests were peaked by the title of the thread he ruined.   

[Andrew G. Doe]

Odd - a few crappy albums doesn't invalidate what went before.

But for just the general, average fan...

Early 60s - The band constantly improving in terms of musicianship, songwriting, production and live performances. Also, gaining in popularity all of the time with anything seemingly possible. Those were surely the years to be fans of the group.

Contrast with 1977 - The realization that Brian was far from back and was clearly still seriously mentally ill, the live shows not hitting the heights that they had a few years previously, obvious issues within the band, a patchy album that didn't sell at all and hinted again that all was far from well behind the scenes, Dennis' and Brian's voices having clearly gone etc. I'm not sure that one solo album cancelled all of that out for many fans.

Fair point. I was considering only the likes of the posters here - I forget that there are others who are... not as we are. 

[The Heartical Don]

Cuddle Up is great but that "Honey, Honey, I'm in LUUUUURRRVE!" bit does make my toes curl.

I can relate to that. But again, it's a highly personal matter. I guess the majority of people posting here really love Denny's penchant for working towards climaxes in his songs, decibel- and otherwise. It's even to be found in Never Learn. I think its perfectly tenable to ascribe it to him being so sexually charged; a matter of building up tension and then experiencing enormous release. Brian was different, much different in this respect, re: songwriting.

I like about half of POB a lot. So on one hand, for me it's not the ex-Missing-Masterpiece-In-The-World-Of-Music. On the other hand I will readily admit that Dennis had real, raw talent. 'Moonshine' is one of my all-time pop favourites; there's very little that compares with it. And another of Denny's outstanding capacities was that for honesty (see: 'Farewell My Friend'). He may not have been the most straight-living guy in the world, nor the most faithful one. But he did not deceive himself in these respects; he wrote about it instead.

[Cam Mott]

One educated and perceptive man's brilliance is another equally educated and perceptive man's cheese. Or woman's.

[The Heartical Don]

One educated and perceptive man's brilliance is another equally educated and perceptive man's cheese. Or woman's.

Woman's cheese? Moderator?

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I think what Cam meant was one man/woman's brilliance is another's cheese.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Complaining about anything being cheesy in the Beach Boys universe is like going to the store, buying a gigantic block of cheese and then, in the process of devouring it at home, complaining about "How cheesy this gigantic block of cheese is" .....

[Ed Roach]

One educated and perceptive man's brilliance is another equally educated and perceptive man's cheese. Or woman's.

Or, as Dennis was fond of saying, "One man's genius is another man's penis"....

"Monicker" basically hijacked a thread which promised to be very interesting...
... those of us whose interests were peaked by the title of the thread he ruined.   

I fortunately was away from the boards for a couple of days, and missed the start of this thread.  Interesting to me; not 'getting' Dennis' music is one thing, but I found the negative comments fascinating, to say the least.
You see, some of the greatest memories that I'll always cherish were the many & varied times through the years where I got to be a 'fly on the wall' while these two collaborated....  These memories range from Dennis laying down vocal tracks for Brian at Belagio, (and being able to observe Dennis knowing he was studying at the feet of a master), to sessions for each other's songs at Brother, and to the 'hamburger sessions' & various impromptu piano sessions either on the road or at any of the three of our houses.  To this day, I can't hear Dennis' piano without hearing shades of Brian....  and, as Mr. Stebbins so adroitly points out, "But...if you listen to the way they recorded instruments, and painstakingly melded them in their productions, no one is more similar to Brian than Dennis."  Amen, Jon!

[SurfRiderHawaii]

Not knowing the background of the song but I hear a lot of Brian influence in "Little Bird"  I suspect he helped arrange and produce it.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

He did, part of it, and was uncredited.

[Jay]

Did he do the na na na's?   

[Jay]

I'd love to hear Ed's stories of being around for the "hamburger sessions". 

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

The "What a day, what a day, oooh what a beautiful day this is" part, and the end recycled CIFOTM's melody.

[Jon Stebbins]

One educated and perceptive man's brilliance is another equally educated and perceptive man's cheese. Or woman's.

Or, as Dennis was fond of saying, "One man's genius is another man's penis"....

"Monicker" basically hijacked a thread which promised to be very interesting...
... those of us whose interests were peaked by the title of the thread he ruined.   

I fortunately was away from the boards for a couple of days, and missed the start of this thread.  Interesting to me; not 'getting' Dennis' music is one thing, but I found the negative comments fascinating, to say the least.
You see, some of the greatest memories that I'll always cherish were the many & varied times through the years where I got to be a 'fly on the wall' while these two collaborated....  These memories range from Dennis laying down vocal tracks for Brian at Belagio, (and being able to observe Dennis knowing he was studying at the feet of a master), to sessions for each other's songs at Brother, and to the 'hamburger sessions' & various impromptu piano sessions either on the road or at any of the three of our houses.  To this day, I can't hear Dennis' piano without hearing shades of Brian....  and, as Mr. Stebbins so adroitly points out, "But...if you listen to the way they recorded instruments, and painstakingly melded them in their productions, no one is more similar to Brian than Dennis."  Amen, Jon!

Thanks Ed. If anyone knows about the creative synergy between Brian and Dennis its you, who witnessed so much of it first hand. It must have been a constant mind blow to see and hear those things.

[Jay]

The "What a day, what a day, oooh what a beautiful day this is" part, and the end recycled CIFOTM's melody.

I've seen several posts from people mentioning this, but I don't really hear it.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Listen past the vocals...the bass & horn lines play the melody (during the "little bird up in a tree" part).