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Author Topic: American Band movie--a question about it  (Read 47345 times)
guitarfool2002
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« Reply #50 on: July 02, 2011, 12:04:51 AM »



Lightened to show the tape machine...

I have to say I'm fucking shocked to see that *is* an 8-track recording on that tape.

Watch it from 35 seconds into that film clip, and watch closely the needles jumping on the meters behind Brian's head...there are 8-tracks on that reel of tape at Western.

I'm almost convinced now it's a playback/mix session and they're listening to a mix with vocals, hence the 8 tracks making the meters jump.

Fuckin A...

Thanks for pointing that out, Donny L. Smiley
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« Reply #51 on: July 02, 2011, 12:24:43 AM »

It's been established almost since the footage was released on An American Band 26 years ago that this is not the "Fire" session: aside from the presence of people who weren't there (Mike, Carl, VDP), the AFM for "Fire" states it was recorded at Gold Star, as does the Siegel article.

However... when I interviewed him in the control room of Western Three back in late March 1985, Chuck told me a funny little story about the "Fire" session, and it wasn't until I was back at the hotel that it hit me, with almost physical force, that as it was recorded at Gold Star, why was he there, engineering ?  So, unless I totally misunderstood/mistranscribed from the tape what he was saying, maybe there was a further "Fire" session. Go figure.

It's late now, but tomorrow I'll post what he actually told me.
Mr. Doe, besides your fantastic book and website, what other research have you done over the years? Who and when have you interviewed folks from the BB-Universe? I'd love to read this stuff if it's posted anywhere  Wink

Over the years I've interviewed/spoken to:

Brian
Carl
Dennis
Alan
Bruce
David
Scott Bennett
Darian Sahanaja
Probyn Gregory
Nelson Bragg
Jack Rieley
Steve Kalinich
Chuck Britz
Steve Desper
The Honeys
Dan Rutherford
Barbara Charren-Wilson
Ed Roach
Jasper Dailey
Sharon Marie
Mark Linett
Alan Boyd
Gene Landy
... and others who requested anonymity.
I wouldn't mind hearing about how/where you talked with Dennis.  Cool
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« Reply #52 on: July 02, 2011, 12:25:51 AM »

I wouldn't mind hearing about how/where you talked with Dennis.  Cool

Ouija board.
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« Reply #53 on: July 02, 2011, 12:29:48 AM »



Lightened to show the tape machine...

I have to say I'm friggin' shocked to see that *is* an 8-track recording on that tape.

Watch it from 35 seconds into that film clip, and watch closely the needles jumping on the meters behind Brian's head...there are 8-tracks on that reel of tape at Western.

I'm almost convinced now it's a playback/mix session and they're listening to a mix with vocals, hence the 8 tracks making the meters jump.

Fuckin A...

Thanks for pointing that out, Donny L. Smiley

OK...

So... we got an 8-track in Western, ergo the session has to date April 1967 at the earliest. I don't think it's a mix/playback as Mike, Carl and I'm assuming Dennis (filming) are there.

April
11 - Smile session: Tones (Part #3) [Western]

June
5 - Smiley Smile session: Vegetables [Western]
6 - Smiley Smile session: Vegetables [Western]
7 - Smiley Smile session: Vegetables [Western]

Question (because I cannot be arsed to get my DVD from downstairs): does the footage show all eight needles peaking, or just four and we're assuming the other four do as well.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2011, 12:34:20 AM by Andrew G. Doe » Logged

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« Reply #54 on: July 02, 2011, 12:40:16 AM »

Also, this from the Wally Heider dot-com site is Wally's own 3M 8-track from this same time period, one of the first three ever built and delivered by 3M and the first one in LA:



Note the configuration, with the modules stacked vertically over-and-under. This was a "rolling" unit as well which Wally would rent out.

More to come...

Ummm... according to the precambrianmusic site, that's a Dynatrack:

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« Reply #55 on: July 02, 2011, 01:04:37 AM »

Also, this from the Wally Heider dot-com site is Wally's own 3M 8-track from this same time period, one of the first three ever built and delivered by 3M and the first one in LA:



Note the configuration, with the modules stacked vertically over-and-under. This was a "rolling" unit as well which Wally would rent out.

More to come...

Ummm... according to the precambrianmusic site, that's a Dynatrack:




Yes it is, that was Wally's Dynatrack in the shot I posted from his website. Aren't we talking about the same thing? 3M made the Dynatrack, Wally Heider got one of the first three custom made from 3M (as pictured), he showed it off to United/Western and rented his out for a large sum of money, they (United/Western) then ordered more from 3M and got them delivered in mid 1967 (those machines pictured at Western in your B+W shot and the color shot I posted of Sinatra Jr.).

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« Reply #56 on: July 02, 2011, 01:15:46 AM »


Question (because I cannot be arsed to get my DVD from downstairs): does the footage show all eight needles peaking, or just four and we're assuming the other four do as well.

All 8 needles are moving/peaking as they would if 8 tracks are being played back.

It couldn't be April 1967 or later because Van Dyke is shown wearing a firehat, and wasn't he already out of the project by then? I'll suggest again November-December-January 1966 as a rough estimate.

If I remember there was a discussion some time ago about who was mixing those records, and where they were being mixed, where Brian would take a backing track from Western or Gold Star to Columbia to add vocals...Columbia having the only 8 track available to him at that time (65-66). The question was how could Chuck mix the 8 track tapes at Western if Western only had 4 tracks, and Brian added vocals at Columbia, yet Chuck gets the credit for mixing?

I'm a little hazy on the details on that one...but for one, I think it's a mixdown session or listening back to a vocal added to a previous session.

Does that look like April 1967? That film looks like November to January to me...besides Van Dyke, the German magazine is another giveaway. The way Brian looks and the firehats are another. When after a certain span of time Nov-Dec did Brian have those firehats in the studio?
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« Reply #57 on: July 02, 2011, 01:18:56 AM »

Yes it is, that was Wally's Dynatrack in the shot I posted from his website. Aren't we talking about the same thing? 3M made the Dynatrack, Wally Heider got one of the first three custom made from 3M (as pictured), he showed it off to United/Western and rented his out for a large sum of money, they (United/Western) then ordered more from 3M and got them delivered in mid 1967 (those machines pictured at Western in your B+W shot and the color shot I posted of Sinatra Jr.).

My impression from the text is that the WH machine is a true 8-track and not what the Dynatrack seems to be, a 4-track on steroids. It's all a bit confusing.
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« Reply #58 on: July 02, 2011, 01:29:57 AM »

It's all very confusing, indeed! Why would Heider's have 8 modules when as you said, the Dynatrack was 8 tracks grouped as 2-times-4 tracks? Bizarre.

One more piece of evidence, compare this photo dated January 1967 to the film: Same studio control room Western 3, same people Brian, VDP, Chuck, and there is that same tape machine as the film, 8 tracks. You can see more of the rack units behind Brian's hat.
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« Reply #59 on: July 02, 2011, 01:34:53 AM »


Question (because I cannot be arsed to get my DVD from downstairs): does the footage show all eight needles peaking, or just four and we're assuming the other four do as well.

All 8 needles are moving/peaking as they would if 8 tracks are being played back.

It couldn't be April 1967 or later because Van Dyke is shown wearing a firehat, and wasn't he already out of the project by then? I'll suggest again November-December-January 1966 as a rough estimate.

If I remember there was a discussion some time ago about who was mixing those records, and where they were being mixed, where Brian would take a backing track from Western or Gold Star to Columbia to add vocals...Columbia having the only 8 track available to him at that time (65-66). The question was how could Chuck mix the 8 track tapes at Western if Western only had 4 tracks, and Brian added vocals at Columbia, yet Chuck gets the credit for mixing?

I'm a little hazy on the details on that one...but for one, I think it's a mixdown session or listening back to a vocal added to a previous session.

Does that look like April 1967? That film looks like November to January to me...besides Van Dyke, the German magazine is another giveaway. The way Brian looks and the firehats are another. When after a certain span of time Nov-Dec did Brian have those firehats in the studio?

VDP was still around in April, but preparing to bail. As for fall 1966, unless Western was keeping it under wraps that they had a functional 8-track in late 1966 (and I can't see why they would), it can't be anything before spring 1967. However, here's a list of known Western sessions when the band weren't on tour post Europe 1966 (has to be December at the earliest as the band came straight off the plane from Europe (last gig 11/14) and played a show in Providence RI on 11/16 that was the beginning of their annual Thanksgiving tour, which wrapped in Baltimore on 11/24):

December 1966
19 - Heroes And Villains

January 1967
5 - Heroes And Villains - part 2/'Bicycle Rider' vocals
9 - Wonderful
12 - Dennis Wilson session: I Don't Know
23 - Surf's Up [2 sessions]
25 - Jasper Dailey session: Teeter-Totter Love

February
2 - Heroes And Villains
9 - Jasper Dailey session: [titles unknown]
12 - Jasper Dailey session: [titles unknown]
15 - Heroes And Villains (band may have been on tour)
27 - Heroes And Villains - part 2
28 - Heroes And Villains - part 2

March
1 - Heroes And Villains - part 2
2 - Heroes And Villains - part 2
15 - Tones

The other thing to consider, of course, is... was all the footage from the same session ?

Dynatrack: it is of course possible that the precambrianmusic pic is mislabelled.

Highlighted bit: same way as they did Pet Sounds - either did a mono reduction mix on to the 8-track at Columbia from a 4-track, or do a mono reduction mix at Western then copy it on to one track of Columbia's 8-track.
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« Reply #60 on: July 02, 2011, 01:36:32 AM »

Although not very clear, this snapshot shows at least 4 of the 8 VU meters in various stages of motion.

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« Reply #61 on: July 02, 2011, 02:25:10 AM »

Van Dyke was certainly present (as a musician) for a 3/31/67 "Tones" session at Sunset Sound.

Also: I stand corrected - the two 3M C-401 8-track recorders that Western had installed in May 1967 were the same as the 3M 4-channel Dynatrack rig.

United Affiliates newsletter April 1967

Now while this simplifies one aspect, it makes another more problematic, as the date for the faux "Fire" footage now has to date from May 1967 at the earliest. Unless, as seems entirely likely, what's in the footage isn't an 8-track. Here's my notion, feel free to shoot it down: during the recording of "GV", it's documented that Brian used a pair of unsynched 4-tracks to tape some sections, thus eliminating the need to either do it twice or copy the master take. So... is it possible that the footage shows him doing this ? My reason for thinking so is that the exact same firehats are worn in the GV promo film (shot 10/23/66). If this is the case, the session could be any of these:

May
27 - single session: Good Vibrations

June     
2 - single session: Inspiration (= Good Vibrations) [2 sessions]
12 - single session: Inspiration (= Good Vibrations) (possibly not - band played in New Haven CT previous night)
16 - single session: Good Vibrations [2 sessions]
18 - single session: Good Vibrations

September
1 - single session: Good Vibrations/'He Gives Speeches' ?

Or... it's footage of another session where he used twin 4-tracks, some time post 10/23/66. If so (#2), the earliest date would be December 19.

Confused ? Me too: as young David Jones might say, "my brain hurts a lot".
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« Reply #62 on: July 02, 2011, 05:47:19 PM »


... and others who requested anonymity.
[/quote]Rocky Pamplin?  Grin  Razz
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« Reply #63 on: July 02, 2011, 07:53:39 PM »


Also: I stand corrected - the two 3M C-401 8-track recorders that Western had installed in May 1967 were the same as the 3M 4-channel Dynatrack rig.

United Affiliates newsletter April 1967

Now while this simplifies one aspect, it makes another more problematic, as the date for the faux "Fire" footage now has to date from May 1967 at the earliest. Unless, as seems entirely likely, what's in the footage isn't an 8-track. Here's my notion, feel free to shoot it down: during the recording of "GV", it's documented that Brian used a pair of unsynched 4-tracks to tape some sections, thus eliminating the need to either do it twice or copy the master take. So... is it possible that the footage shows him doing this ? My reason for thinking so is that the exact same firehats are worn in the GV promo film (shot 10/23/66). If this is the case, the session could be any of these:

May
27 - single session: Good Vibrations

June     
2 - single session: Inspiration (= Good Vibrations) [2 sessions]
12 - single session: Inspiration (= Good Vibrations) (possibly not - band played in New Haven CT previous night)
16 - single session: Good Vibrations [2 sessions]
18 - single session: Good Vibrations

September
1 - single session: Good Vibrations/'He Gives Speeches' ?

Or... it's footage of another session where he used twin 4-tracks, some time post 10/23/66. If so (#2), the earliest date would be December 19.



The two 4-track unit theory seems plausible to me... Though, the Bravo magazine Carl holds was dated to September 24, 1966 by Dancing Bear, so IF this footage was all shot at one session, that would certainly rule out the May and June Good Vibes dates, right?

Also let me throw this out there (just in case the water wasn't murky enough): Though it wasn't directly stated, I took Guitarfool's post to mean Heider rented his 8-track TO Western (please correct me if I'm wrong). So, wouldn't it be possible that the unit filmed was the rented machine? That would allow the session to have taken place before May when Western purchased two 8-track machines of their own.

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« Reply #64 on: July 02, 2011, 09:30:52 PM »


Also: I stand corrected - the two 3M C-401 8-track recorders that Western had installed in May 1967 were the same as the 3M 4-channel Dynatrack rig.

United Affiliates newsletter April 1967

Now while this simplifies one aspect, it makes another more problematic, as the date for the faux "Fire" footage now has to date from May 1967 at the earliest. Unless, as seems entirely likely, what's in the footage isn't an 8-track. Here's my notion, feel free to shoot it down: during the recording of "GV", it's documented that Brian used a pair of unsynched 4-tracks to tape some sections, thus eliminating the need to either do it twice or copy the master take. So... is it possible that the footage shows him doing this ? My reason for thinking so is that the exact same firehats are worn in the GV promo film (shot 10/23/66). If this is the case, the session could be any of these:

May
27 - single session: Good Vibrations

June     
2 - single session: Inspiration (= Good Vibrations) [2 sessions]
12 - single session: Inspiration (= Good Vibrations) (possibly not - band played in New Haven CT previous night)
16 - single session: Good Vibrations [2 sessions]
18 - single session: Good Vibrations

September
1 - single session: Good Vibrations/'He Gives Speeches' ?

Or... it's footage of another session where he used twin 4-tracks, some time post 10/23/66. If so (#2), the earliest date would be December 19.



The two 4-track unit theory seems plausible to me... Though, the Bravo magazine Carl holds was dated to September 24, 1966 by Dancing Bear, so IF this footage was all shot at one session, that would certainly rule out the May and June Good Vibes dates, right?

Also let me throw this out there (just in case the water wasn't murky enough): Though it wasn't directly stated, I took Guitarfool's post to mean Heider rented his 8-track TO Western (please correct me if I'm wrong). So, wouldn't it be possible that the unit filmed was the rented machine? That would allow the session to have taken place before May when Western purchased two 8-track machines of their own.



Wally Heider had one of the first 3 ever rolled off the production line at 3M, and the first one of its kind in LA. Wally would "demo" his new machine at various places, including United/Western and Sunset, and at Sunset Sound Herb Alpert for one later rented and used Wally's 8-track machine to cut a few of his records. Wally Heider easily paid off the cost of the machine by renting it out at a high rate, and it sounds like not only did word-of-mouth get those bookings, but also Wally's demonstrations helped spread the word and other studios were wanting to "book" the new machine. Was Western one of them?

Here's where it gets interesting...

Wally demo'ed the machine at United/Western during sessions for Frank Sinatra's "That's Life" album, held at United in October and November...wait for it....1966. Grin  Those demos most likely led to United/Western "booking" the machine for other sessions because people were asking for 8 track more and more by late 1966 and they didn't have one, as far as we've been led to believe for decades.

So United/Western did *not*, as far as we can tell, have a dedicated 8-track machine at that time. Yet we see one in active use in the firehat film, and we see a few still shots of it on other session dates as well. Which machine is that?

Earlier in a thread we talked about magazines like Teen Set post-dating issues by 2 or 3 months. In that case, a German pop magazine dated Sept. 1966 might hit the newsstands in November 1966, *exactly* the time the Beach boys were in Germany on tour.

The fact that Wally demo'ed his 8 track at United Western sometime in October and November 1966 fits in very well with my earlier estimated timeline...if that machine in the film is in fact Wally Heider's, which I'm not convinced it is because it's not the same configuration as other similar 3M machines we posted photos of (without the Scully units above it). But there is still work to be done. Smiley
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« Reply #65 on: July 02, 2011, 10:04:59 PM »



Lightened to show the tape machine...

I have to say I'm friggin' shocked to see that *is* an 8-track recording on that tape.

Watch it from 35 seconds into that film clip, and watch closely the needles jumping on the meters behind Brian's head...there are 8-tracks on that reel of tape at Western.

I'm almost convinced now it's a playback/mix session and they're listening to a mix with vocals, hence the 8 tracks making the meters jump.

Fuckin A...

Thanks for pointing that out, Donny L. Smiley

OK...

So... we got an 8-track in Western, ergo the session has to date April 1967 at the earliest. I don't think it's a mix/playback as Mike, Carl and I'm assuming Dennis (filming) are there.

April
11 - Smile session: Tones (Part #3) [Western]

June
5 - Smiley Smile session: Vegetables [Western]
6 - Smiley Smile session: Vegetables [Western]
7 - Smiley Smile session: Vegetables [Western]

Question (because I cannot be arsed to get my DVD from downstairs): does the footage show all eight needles peaking, or just four and we're assuming the other four do as well.

It's 1" tape, clearly visible.  and it's a Scully 280, not a 3m M23 w/ dyna-trak.  Scully made 280 8-tracks as far back as '65.
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« Reply #66 on: July 02, 2011, 10:07:01 PM »

Also, this from the Wally Heider dot-com site is Wally's own 3M 8-track from this same time period, one of the first three ever built and delivered by 3M and the first one in LA:



Note the configuration, with the modules stacked vertically over-and-under. This was a "rolling" unit as well which Wally would rent out.

More to come...

to clear up the confusion with "dyna-trak" -- that is just a 3M M23 1" 8-track.  the Dyna-trak system used twice as many tracks to cancel out noise (sort of an early noise reduction system), so you could use 4-tracks with the noise reduction or 8 tracks without.  not a popular system, and only 20-30 units were ever made with Dynatrak.
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« Reply #67 on: July 02, 2011, 10:11:55 PM »

Although not very clear, this snapshot shows at least 4 of the 8 VU meters in various stages of motion.



seriously, trust me, that is a Scully 280 1" 8-track, you can see the 1" tape and the transport is much larger than a 4-track transport ... it's like showing a picture of a fender stratocaster and saying it's a telecaster!
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« Reply #68 on: July 02, 2011, 10:25:39 PM »

So when it's a Scully machine, with 8 tracks, at Western, why has it been reported for years that Western only worked on 4 track into the Good Vibrations time period and beyond? I'm sure there is an interview with Brian or Chuck where they mentioned synching up two 4 tracks for Good Vibes or other sessions of that period in place of a "real" 8 track. And why did Van Dyke Parks cut Song Cycle at Western on 4 track if they could run 8 tracks, yet he went to other studios and did 8 track recording?

Finding out that tape machine was an 8 track was something of a mind-blower if you're into this kind of thing, because again the accepted knowledge was that Brian cut vocals at Columbia because they offered 8 tracks where Western (and Gold Star) only offered 4.

It's hard to make sense of it all, for me at least, especially throwing in the fact that there is no date on this film, and I think that may be the ultimate goal - to date that film clip once and for all. The 8 track revelation is/was a fantastic detour!

And for more info, anyone can check out the Wally Heider website. That is where I found and pasted the photo of the 3M 8 track machine, and the info about that being Wally's came from Dale Manquen on that site.

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« Reply #69 on: July 02, 2011, 10:26:57 PM »

Yes it is, that was Wally's Dynatrack in the shot I posted from his website. Aren't we talking about the same thing? 3M made the Dynatrack, Wally Heider got one of the first three custom made from 3M (as pictured), he showed it off to United/Western and rented his out for a large sum of money, they (United/Western) then ordered more from 3M and got them delivered in mid 1967 (those machines pictured at Western in your B+W shot and the color shot I posted of Sinatra Jr.).

My impression from the text is that the WH machine is a true 8-track and not what the Dynatrack seems to be, a 4-track on steroids. It's all a bit confusing.

the Dynatrak was a 1" 8-track machine configured for 4 of those tracks to be used for extended dynamic range, turning it into a low-noise 4-track (still, 8-channels would be present).  the Dynatrak cards could be removed and the machine could be used as a regular 8-track.
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« Reply #70 on: July 02, 2011, 10:29:47 PM »


to clear up the confusion with "dyna-trak" -- that is just a 3M M23 1" 8-track.  the Dyna-trak system used twice as many tracks to cancel out noise (sort of an early noise reduction system), so you could use 4-tracks with the noise reduction or 8 tracks without.  not a popular system, and only 20-30 units were ever made with Dynatrak.

This is kind of funny because I think in the UA newsletter it says they ordered and installed 23 of those machines in 1967 in their various locations and operations, though I could be remembering that wrong. Sounds like Bill Putnam was their best customer!

Those photos of Sinatra Jr. and the other B&W shot earlier in this thread...is it possible to ID those as Dynatrack or not just by what's visible?
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« Reply #71 on: July 02, 2011, 10:31:10 PM »

So when it's a Scully machine, with 8 tracks, at Western, why has it been reported for years that Western only worked on 4 track into the Good Vibrations time period and beyond? I'm sure there is an interview with Brian or Chuck where they mentioned synching up two 4 tracks for Good Vibes or other sessions of that period in place of a "real" 8 track. And why did Van Dyke Parks cut Song Cycle at Western on 4 track if they could run 8 tracks, yet he went to other studios and did 8 track recording?

Finding out that tape machine was an 8 track was something of a mind-blower if you're into this kind of thing, because again the accepted knowledge was that Brian cut vocals at Columbia because they offered 8 tracks where Western (and Gold Star) only offered 4.

It's hard to make sense of it all, for me at least, especially throwing in the fact that there is no date on this film, and I think that may be the ultimate goal - to date that film clip once and for all. The 8 track revelation is/was a fantastic detour!

And for more info, anyone can check out the Wally Heider website. That is where I found and pasted the photo of the 3M 8 track machine, and the info about that being Wally's came from Dale Manquen on that site.



yeh man, it's kind of like that tape vault photo thread ... there are certain things that are quite clear that don't match up with the commonly-held beliefs.  like the Scotch tape boxes that no one seemed to believe me about!
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« Reply #72 on: July 02, 2011, 10:33:33 PM »


to clear up the confusion with "dyna-trak" -- that is just a 3M M23 1" 8-track.  the Dyna-trak system used twice as many tracks to cancel out noise (sort of an early noise reduction system), so you could use 4-tracks with the noise reduction or 8 tracks without.  not a popular system, and only 20-30 units were ever made with Dynatrak.

This is kind of funny because I think in the UA newsletter it says they ordered and installed 23 of those machines in 1967 in their various locations and operations, though I could be remembering that wrong. Sounds like Bill Putnam was their best customer!

Those photos of Sinatra Jr. and the other B&W shot earlier in this thread...is it possible to ID those as Dynatrack or not just by what's visible?

yeh, that's totally right.  all of the decks went to major studios ... scotch had introduced lower noise tape around the same time, and dolby introduced noise reduction units, making the 3M system something of a failure.  it was also not very practical to use so much tape just to get 10 db more dynamic range when you could get it with lower noise tape and/or a dolby system.
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« Reply #73 on: July 02, 2011, 10:38:45 PM »

is it possible to ID those as Dynatrack or not just by what's visible?

nope, in fact, that actually looks like a 3M M23 4-track.  you see, you can't tell if the lower portion has 4 additional channels or not.  the 4-track looks the same as the 8-track from above.  and to confuse matters even further, it could be either a regular 4-track or a 2-track with Dynatrak.  no way to tell as far as i am aware; i don't think a dynatrak machine looked any different than a regular M23.

here you go, a 3m m23 4-track:

http://auxsend.net/tapemachines/2011/06/06/3m-m23/
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« Reply #74 on: July 02, 2011, 10:39:31 PM »

So when it's a Scully machine, with 8 tracks, at Western, why has it been reported for years that Western only worked on 4 track into the Good Vibrations time period and beyond? I'm sure there is an interview with Brian or Chuck where they mentioned synching up two 4 tracks for Good Vibes or other sessions of that period in place of a "real" 8 track. And why did Van Dyke Parks cut Song Cycle at Western on 4 track if they could run 8 tracks, yet he went to other studios and did 8 track recording?

Finding out that tape machine was an 8 track was something of a mind-blower if you're into this kind of thing, because again the accepted knowledge was that Brian cut vocals at Columbia because they offered 8 tracks where Western (and Gold Star) only offered 4.

It's hard to make sense of it all, for me at least, especially throwing in the fact that there is no date on this film, and I think that may be the ultimate goal - to date that film clip once and for all. The 8 track revelation is/was a fantastic detour!

And for more info, anyone can check out the Wally Heider website. That is where I found and pasted the photo of the 3M 8 track machine, and the info about that being Wally's came from Dale Manquen on that site.



yeh man, it's kind of like that tape vault photo thread ... there are certain things that are quite clear that don't match up with the commonly-held beliefs.  like the Scotch tape boxes that no one seemed to believe me about!

The tape boxes told the story, but in all fairness to Chuck and Brian, were they pulling our leg for years about only recording to 4 track? This is a fascinating case where we have photo and video/film evidence of Chuck Britz and Brian working with an 8 track machine, and apparently *no one* ever noticed it in the photos and videos?

Isn't there even an interview with Mark Linett somewhere where he mentioned "Vegetables" on Smiley as the time they switched everything over to 8 track from 4? I guess this is it from the board archives:

"As for Vegetables and Let the Wind Blow on Hawthorne, the latter had all the tracks on one 8 track, but Vegetables did require editing of the sections together to create a complete multi-track to mix from. By this time everything was being done on 8 track and in this case just one generation, no dubdowns as with some songs like "Time To Get Alone" which did require the syncing of a couple of 8 tracks."

So he's talkin' 8 track Smiley Smile, we're talkin' whenever in late 66 or early 67 that film was shot at Western.

An incredible ride so far...
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