Previously released material on The Smile Sessions?

[A Million Units In Jan!]

... and folk wonder why sometimes I get a mite tetchy.
Re-read the article.

With the exception of maybe 5 people, nobody really gives a sh*t.

[OneEar/OneEye]

 

Oh, so now I see how they get around the issue of including things recorded post 67.  According to Dom (link to interview below), apparently the compilers of this box feel the Smile Sessions didn't end in 67, but went on til about 71/72 - hence they can include the tag to Surff's Up, The lead vocals on Cabin Essence, etc. 
"Pretty sneaky, sis."   

http://www.examiner.com/vintage-rock-n-roll-in-national/author-beach-boys-smile-release-will-tell-story-bootleg-releases-couldn-t

... and folk wonder why sometimes I get a mite tetchy. NOWHERE in that article is the word "compilers" so much as mentioned. The part about the 'sessions' extending to 1971-2 is purely Dom's opinion. He wrote the essay, he did photo/memorabilia research (like it says in the piece), but he's had nothing to do with the compilation or sequencing of the project beyond the not-inconsiderable influence of what he did with DAG #2. The only person who's said "apparently the compilers of this box feel the Smile Sessions didn't end in 67, but went on til about 71/72" is you - not Dom. And you're wrong.

Re-read the article.

Gee, so sorry, but gosh I was sort of under the impression that ol' Dom was sort of speaking as someone who, having written the notes for this upcoming release, had some idea as to the inner track of the, uh, "compilers" - yes, MY word, not Dom's or the articles, but mine.  Maybe "magicians" would have been better, or "them guys", or...whatever.
But hey, the following:

"Keep in mind that The Beach Boys were tinkering with and finishing 'SMiLE' material from 1967 until about 1971 when the song "Surf's Up" was finally released," he said. "There were sessions to finish 'Cabinessence' in 1968. 'Cool, Cool Water' was a SMiLE-era composition that was recorded in 1967, then expanded on nicely for release on 'Sunflower' in 1970. The music was never totally put away, as legend would have it, until 1972. With a lot of years of study behind us all, and access to the original '60s inside information, it's detective work made easy."

Well, that just gave dumb ol' me the impression that this was part of the idea with the release, that the sessions didn't end in 67 (because that rascally "tinkerin'" was goin' on in the ensuin' few years), and again, Dom being the chosen, OFFICIAL writer of the notes to the goshdarn thing - kinda leads an idjit like meself to that cunclooshun.   But I bow to your righteous indignation on the matter, oh mighty curmudgeon, 'cos my intent was not to mislead the faithful (was Dom's?  Maybe ya ought to take it up with him), and I'll just keep quiet from here on out and we'll see what we see (and hear) come release day. 

[drbeachboy]

Why does everyone want another version and/or mix of H&V? If Disc 1 is a close approximation of what would have been released, then doesn't it stand to reason that the released H&V would have been the version used? Most here want the hit version of GV, so why not the same with H&V?

[pixletwin]

Why does everyone want another version and/or mix of H&V? If Disc 1 is a close approximation of what would have been released, then doesn't it stand to reason that the released H&V would have been the version used? Most here want the hit version of GV, so why not the same with H&V?

Not me. I want a version structured like the BWPS GV. Even if they keep the original lyrics on disc 1, I want the extended "hummm-dee-dow" section.

[desmondo]

Why does everyone want another version and/or mix of H&V? If Disc 1 is a close approximation of what would have been released, then doesn't it stand to reason that the released H&V would have been the version used? Most here want the hit version of GV, so why not the same with H&V?

All I want is THE Smile version of H&V -whatever that turns out to be (personally I would settle for a full band version of the HV/IIGS/BY mix

[juggler]

Why does everyone want another version and/or mix of H&V? If Disc 1 is a close approximation of what would have been released, then doesn't it stand to reason that the released H&V would have been the version used? Most here want the hit version of GV, so why not the same with H&V?

Because the H&V 45 version was finished at Brian's house after Smile had already been scrapped? 

I think that many folks feel that the 45 is a post-Smile animal, though certainly many parts of it were recorded during the Smile era (summer '66 to May '67).

There's not much point in putting the 45 version on Disc 1 as the "approximation version," if other versions of H&V that were completed earlier exist.  Of course, if there were no earlier completed versions, then, yeah, I guess the 45 version would have to do (similar to how the 20/20 Cabinessence will probably have to do unless they can find a lead vocal from the Smile era).

[pixletwin]

The 45 version of H&V feels grossly underproduced and thinly mixed. For that reason alone it doesn't belong on the box set... That MO fits in much better with Smiley Smile.

[drbeachboy]

Why does everyone want another version and/or mix of H&V? If Disc 1 is a close approximation of what would have been released, then doesn't it stand to reason that the released H&V would have been the version used? Most here want the hit version of GV, so why not the same with H&V?

All I want is THE Smile version of H&V -whatever that turns out to be (personally I would settle for a full band version of the HV/IIGS/BY mix

Wouldn't that be the released version, considering that had Smile been released, and H&V already relased as the single, that this version would have been the one on the album. After reading all the posts about what should or should not be included, there are going to lots of very unhappy people. I am starting to feel like this release is a very, very bad mistake.

[Jason]

Why does everyone want another version and/or mix of H&V? If Disc 1 is a close approximation of what would have been released, then doesn't it stand to reason that the released H&V would have been the version used? Most here want the hit version of GV, so why not the same with H&V?

All I want is THE Smile version of H&V -whatever that turns out to be (personally I would settle for a full band version of the HV/IIGS/BY mix

Dude, THERE IS NO SMILE VERSION OF HEROES AND VILLAINS. There are sessions and varying types of test mixes.

[drbeachboy]

H&V was released on July 31st, so in a sense you are correct. Had Smile been released later than June, say like August, then Smiley would have never happened. The single version would have most likely been used on Smile.

[GeorgeFellInHisHorn]

http://smilefiletemp.tripod.com/S5odds.htm

Session singer Stan Farber, indicated that Brian had a long version of Heroes And Villains completed, but subsequently scrapped it when a visitor did not like the track. This also holds credibility given the numerous new instrumental tracks recorded during SMILE's creation.
"Ron Hicklin and I walked into Brian's house and off the front entry was this beautiful wood panelled library that he had turned into a recording studio and they had ducting pipes all over the place that ruined the damn thing.
 Brian had a little studio in there and although I can't remember the song we did, we did something there.
 Anyway, the story about Heroes And Villains that was told to me by engineer Chuck Britz...We were doing something there and he played us Heroes And Villains.  He had just finished mixing and I said, "Well that's good, but it's not as good as Good Vibrations."
 Well, Chuck turned to me and said, "You should have heard it three months ago."
 And I said, "What do you mean?"
 And he replied, "Well Brian worked on this for six months as the follow-up to Good Vibrations and it was a masterpiece.  You would not have believed it!  It was a six months project.  Then some guy came in off the street; he was a friend of someone else who was hanging out and Brian turned to him and played him Heroes And Villains and then asked him what he thought of it.  This guy basically said he didn't like it and so Brian wiped the tape!  He erased it"
 The guy was just some stranger off the street.  Brian erased it all and then started over from scratch!
 Chuck said that the version he had just mixed that day was okay, but it was nothing like it was."

As far as unheard mixes of H&V, i'm looking for something along the lines of this.

[Chris Moise]

I'm wondering what in the world could be new on this thing.   I know there is the off chance of lost or previously well guarded unreleased tracks, but my understanding is that Darian had all of the existing smile material on his computer for Brian to sort through in making BWPS.  If not, why not?

My understanding is that Darian didn't have the various acetates in the possession of band members. Based on the mention of acetates in the presser I think we can assume some acetates contained some unique material or mixes not found on the tapes. Then there is material that has been discovered since 2004.

[JohnMill]

I'm wondering what in the world could be new on this thing.   I know there is the off chance of lost or previously well guarded unreleased tracks, but my understanding is that Darian had all of the existing smile material on his computer for Brian to sort through in making BWPS.  If not, why not?

My understanding is that Darian didn't have the various acetates in the possession of band members. Based on the mention of acetates in the presser I think we can assume some acetates contained some unique material or mixes not found on the tapes. Then there is material that has been discovered since 2004.

I'm personally wondering how much material sourced from acetate will be included?  I know with technology today you can pretty much clean any recording up but some of the "SMiLE" acetates that we already know of aren't what you would call up to releasable standard.   You would think they would want to keep the material on this set as high quality and as close to the multi-track tapes as possible but then again the subject of acetates have already been brought up by the compilers so...

Also on H&V, I'm with the majority as far as not including the 45 mix of H&V on this new set.  I'm not even sure how I feel about the "Cantina" version being the definitive version of the song included on the album itself.  I obviously have no problem including it elsewhere on the set but since the album portion of the project lends itself most to experimentation as far as creating new mixes, I'd hope that Linett crafts us something tasty direct from the multi-tracks.

Something else to consider:  The "SMiLE" album is going to be what is going to be marketed to the masses.  They are going to want the material on the album itself to sound as slick and cohesive as possible.  The material on the box set (or the sessions portion of the project) will be more for the die-hards.  I think it's important to remember when discussing what will be and won't be included in the album portion of this project is that the compilers are trying to put together an album that can be sold to the masses.  It obviously can't be a completed work (being that so many vocals sessions are missing or were never recorded at all) but I fully expect the album portion of the "SMiLE" sessions to be a pretty slick affair.

[Jason]

If the acetates contain stuff that can't be reconstructed from multitracks they should be included. And even if they can, they're the only documentation of those specific mixes in any form.

[JohnMill]

If the acetates contain stuff that can't be reconstructed from multitracks they should be included. And even if they can, they're the only documentation of those specific mixes in any form.

I agree but I'm wondering if the compilers are thinking along the same lines as you and I.  I seem to remember The Beatles had a lot of lower quality material at their disposal for "Anthology" and disregarded almost every last bit of it.

[desmondo]

Why does everyone want another version and/or mix of H&V? If Disc 1 is a close approximation of what would have been released, then doesn't it stand to reason that the released H&V would have been the version used? Most here want the hit version of GV, so why not the same with H&V?

All I want is THE Smile version of H&V -whatever that turns out to be (personally I would settle for a full band version of the HV/IIGS/BY mix

Dude, THERE IS NO SMILE VERSION OF HEROES AND VILLAINS. There are sessions and varying types of test mixes.

Errr - Cantina???

And how exactly do we know there is no Smile version of H&V

[JohnMill]

Why does everyone want another version and/or mix of H&V? If Disc 1 is a close approximation of what would have been released, then doesn't it stand to reason that the released H&V would have been the version used? Most here want the hit version of GV, so why not the same with H&V?

All I want is THE Smile version of H&V -whatever that turns out to be (personally I would settle for a full band version of the HV/IIGS/BY mix

Dude, THERE IS NO SMILE VERSION OF HEROES AND VILLAINS. There are sessions and varying types of test mixes.

Errr - Cantina???

And how exactly do we know there is no Smile version of H&V

Well unless they dug it up since the release of HAWTHORNE, there is LIKELY NO completed "SMiLE" version of H&V.  The simple reason is due to the fact that it would've already been released by now either on the GV box, SS/WH two-fer or the Hawthorne collection.  It wouldn't likely be something that would've been passed on for all these years especially when they've been reissuing that "Cantina" mix for almost two decades now.  

I also think the fact that they once again included "Cantina" on the recent GV/H&V 45 is more evidence to the fact that if there is to be a new version of H&V appearing on this new collection it will be a modern mix done by Mark Linett incorporating material from the multi-tracks.  I'd be extremely surprised if they have a completed 1966/1967 mix of the song that we haven't yet heard.

[Jason]

If the acetates contain stuff that can't be reconstructed from multitracks they should be included. And even if they can, they're the only documentation of those specific mixes in any form.

I agree but I'm wondering if the compilers are thinking along the same lines as you and I.  I seem to remember The Beatles had a lot of lower quality material at their disposal for "Anthology" and disregarded almost every last bit of it.

They need to be brave like Ernst Jorgensen is with Elvis Presley's reissues. If the acetate is the only source for anything Elvis related, then it's of historical interest and therefore worthy. Maybe he should do the Smile box set as he would have the stones for it?

[donald]

Regarding using material incorporated or changed and/or enhanced as late as 72.......

I'm still remembering that live intro Mike Love did on one of the comps.....EH or Hawthorne as I recall...when he said smile was going to be released in a couple of months or later in the year......maybe it was in the intro to wonderBill.

Perhaps they had one pretty much ready to go, and some of that is what we are going to get?

[Andrew G. Doe]

Regarding using material incorporated or changed and/or enhanced as late as 72.......

I'm still remembering that live intro Mike Love did on one of the comps.....EH or Hawthorne as I recall...when he said smile was going to be released in a couple of months or later in the year......maybe it was in the intro to wonderBill.

Perhaps they had one pretty much ready to go, and some of that is what we are going to get?

From reading the releases and articles, my impression is that Mark & Alan are working with the 1966-67 tapes and not some early 70s comp reels.

[donald]

Regarding using material incorporated or changed and/or enhanced as late as 72.......

I'm still remembering that live intro Mike Love did on one of the comps.....EH or Hawthorne as I recall...when he said smile was going to be released in a couple of months or later in the year......maybe it was in the intro to wonderBill.

Perhaps they had one pretty much ready to go, and some of that is what we are going to get?

From reading the releases and articles, my impression is that Mark & Alan are working with the 1966-67 tapes and not some early 70s comp reels.

What I was referring to Andrew, was ML's comment back in the early 70's that smile would soon be released...as if it were being reading for release...as if it were nearly complete....that seemed to be the implication.  So, I was wondering if there is some completed 67-72 era smile material that we haven't heard, that might be included somewhere on the BOX.  I know that would not go over with some purists but all of the voices were still alive at the time and it would indeed be a treat to hear.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Regarding using material incorporated or changed and/or enhanced as late as 72.......

I'm still remembering that live intro Mike Love did on one of the comps.....EH or Hawthorne as I recall...when he said smile was going to be released in a couple of months or later in the year......maybe it was in the intro to wonderBill.

Perhaps they had one pretty much ready to go, and some of that is what we are going to get?

From reading the releases and articles, my impression is that Mark & Alan are working with the 1966-67 tapes and not some early 70s comp reels.

What I was referring to Andrew, was ML's comment back in the early 70's that smile would soon be released...as if it were being reading for release...as if it were nearly complete....that seemed to be the implication.  So, I was wondering if there is some completed 67-72 era smile material that we haven't heard, that might be included somewhere on the BOX.  I know that would not go over with some purists but all of the voices were still alive at the time and it would indeed be a treat to hear.

Best of my knowledge, in 1971/2, Carl & SWD pulled the tapes, listened, made safety copies, assembled two comp reels and then put the lost back into storage. Elaborations and corrections welcomed, of course.

[Bicyclerider]

Well unless they dug it up since the release of HAWTHORNE, there is LIKELY NO completed "SMiLE" version of H&V.  The simple reason is due to the fact that it would've already been released by now either on the GV box, SS/WH two-fer or the Hawthorne collection.  It wouldn't likely be something that would've been passed on for all these years especially when they've been reissuing that "Cantina" mix for almost two decades now.  

I also think the fact that they once again included "Cantina" on the recent GV/H&V 45 is more evidence to the fact that if there is to be a new version of H&V appearing on this new collection it will be a modern mix done by Mark Linett incorporating material from the multi-tracks.  I'd be extremely surprised if they have a completed 1966/1967 mix of the song that we haven't yet heard.

I'd be surprised if they DIDN'T have a completed 66/67 mix of the song we haven't heard yet - that's the whole point of the Bruce/Alan acetates, right?  While I'm hoping for some new sections we haven't heard, I think the mix will be just a rearrangement of sections we already know - and if the acetates have the same mix Mike played the reporter in June, it will resemble the Smiley/45 version more than the cantina version.  If they have the sections on multitrack or mono mixdown form, then they will likely reassemble the "new" mix from the original tapes - if not, the acetate would likely appear on discs 2-4.

[Bicyclerider]

"Barnyard": I think this'll be one of the real treats on the boxset. I have a strong feeling they've found the multitracks for this, based on the inner groove to the H&V/GV single, and, again, from several comments made on this forum by people in the know.

"Old Master Painter/You Are My Sunshine": Probably the exact same version we've always had, unless a miracle happens and they find Denny's Old Master Painter vocals.

.

Eight track copies of Barnyard (with animal noises and without) are on the Desper comp reels.  So yes, we will get this from tape - it's not clear when they transferred the tapes how many tracks they left on the comp reel for "overdubs" but I would hope that a stereo mix could be created from that.

Old Master Painter/Sunshine - after the GV box set was released there was an interview with Mark in ICE (remember that mag?) where he said they had recently (after the box set) found a better quality source for this song - so I am hopeful we will get the track with Denny's vocals and the original Barnshine fade with vocals.

[Chris Brown]

Well unless they dug it up since the release of HAWTHORNE, there is LIKELY NO completed "SMiLE" version of H&V.  The simple reason is due to the fact that it would've already been released by now either on the GV box, SS/WH two-fer or the Hawthorne collection.  It wouldn't likely be something that would've been passed on for all these years especially when they've been reissuing that "Cantina" mix for almost two decades now.  

I also think the fact that they once again included "Cantina" on the recent GV/H&V 45 is more evidence to the fact that if there is to be a new version of H&V appearing on this new collection it will be a modern mix done by Mark Linett incorporating material from the multi-tracks.  I'd be extremely surprised if they have a completed 1966/1967 mix of the song that we haven't yet heard.

I'd be surprised if they DIDN'T have a completed 66/67 mix of the song we haven't heard yet - that's the whole point of the Bruce/Alan acetates, right?  While I'm hoping for some new sections we haven't heard, I think the mix will be just a rearrangement of sections we already know - and if the acetates have the same mix Mike played the reporter in June, it will resemble the Smiley/45 version more than the cantina version.  If they have the sections on multitrack or mono mixdown form, then they will likely reassemble the "new" mix from the original tapes - if not, the acetate would likely appear on discs 2-4.

That's exactly what I've been thinking as well.  For as much as Brian tinkered with that track, and as many sections as he recorded, there's no way he only made 2 mixes of the thing - at the very least, there has to have been some test mix done in 1966, which I think would be the most interesting to hear out of any possible new mix.