Were the sections of The Elements ever enumerated?

[Andrew G. Doe]

I have a great life and have met some great people on here and other forums and whilst we don't always agree we respect each others knowledge and informed opinions.

We do ?  Damn, no-one told me...

[Dunderhead]

blah blah blah, if you want to come in here and bitch don't act stunned when somebody calls you on it. You challenge the validity of this discussion? Well I challenge your challenge. Put up or shut up.

I really think you have issues, not sure if they are drug related at this point don't care. You are going round and round in circles contradicting your self is it so hard to let go of a false reality. I have a great life and have met some great people on here and other forums and whilst we don't always agree we respect each others knowledge and informed opinions.

I don't even know how to respond anymore. I could write something, try and express my views on this whole never-ending cycle of rudeness but it makes no difference. You all claim to have so much respect, but you're all equally rude and bitchy and discussion was going along perfectly well until Chris Moise came in here to tell everyone how dumb they were. Can we just knock it off? Is there really a reason to swoop into ongoing discussion to insult the participants? Maybe if we could all just lay off we could actually make some progress in this discussion. But I doubt that will happen, likely 18th of May will heroically stand up to tell me how many drugs I do. Seriously dude, my personal experience with drugs is none of your business, I have never posted anything on here talking about my own use of drugs, and for all you know I may have never so much as touched a joint in my life. Stop being a dick.

[18thofMay]

I have a great life and have met some great people on here and other forums and whilst we don't always agree we respect each others knowledge and informed opinions.

We do ?  Damn, no-one told me...

I thought we did

[18thofMay]

blah blah blah, if you want to come in here and bitch don't act stunned when somebody calls you on it. You challenge the validity of this discussion? Well I challenge your challenge. Put up or shut up.

I really think you have issues, not sure if they are drug related at this point don't care. You are going round and round in circles contradicting your self is it so hard to let go of a false reality. I have a great life and have met some great people on here and other forums and whilst we don't always agree we respect each others knowledge and informed opinions.

  so hard. I think it's much worse that you think alternate interpretations of Smile are "false realities", like the people that have them are some maladjusted freaks that need to be institutionalized. Get your head out of your ass. We're all guilty of posting rude comments, it's a never ending cycle on this board, you guys are all guilty of it to. Discussion was going along just fine until Chris Moise came in here to thread shi t. Maybe if we could actually all exercise that respect that we all claim to have, yet never seem to use, and stop posting bitchy comments. There are obviously two camps, all some of us want to do is just come here and post our thoughts and observations and not get booed for it. It's really frustrating to realize that half the community hates you and stop whatever their doing to simply post how dumb you are whenever you post anything. We have just as much right to talk about our ideas, and just because some of you don't like them doesn't mean there haven't been plenty of insightful and interesting observations posted in the last several weeks.
But of course none of this will likely placate any of you, and all this will be met with yet another snide remark by 18th of May, "dude you f'd up your brain on drugs". Man, I have never once posted anything about my personal drug use, why you insist on making this about my that is beyond me, you're just being a dick.

Let's see all that respect guys, lets see which one of us cracks first. I'm sure it won't be long into the next cycle of smile discussion that somebody starts taking pot shots, but it won't be me.

Good

[Andrew G. Doe]

so hard. I think it's much worse that you think alternate interpretations of Smile are "false realities", like the people that have them are some maladjusted freaks that need to be institutionalized. Get your head out of your ass. We're all guilty of posting rude comments, it's a never ending cycle on this board, you guys are all guilty of it to. Discussion was going along just fine until Chris Moise came in here to thread shi t. Maybe if we could actually all exercise that respect that we all claim to have, yet never seem to use, and stop posting bitchy comments. There are obviously two camps, all some of us want to do is just come here and post our thoughts and observations and not get booed for it. It's really frustrating to realize that half the community hates you and stop whatever their doing to simply post how dumb you are whenever you post anything. We have just as much right to talk about our ideas, and just because some of you don't like them doesn't mean there haven't been plenty of insightful and interesting observations posted in the last several weeks.
But of course none of this will likely placate any of you, and all this will be met with yet another snide remark by 18th of May, "dude you f'd up your brain on drugs". Man, I have never once posted anything about my personal drug use, why you insist on making this about my that is beyond me, you're just being a dick.

Let's see all that respect guys, lets see which one of us cracks first. I'm sure it won't be long into the next cycle of smile discussion that somebody starts taking pot shots, but it won't be me.

Deal. Game on.

Just one point: the problem I have with 'alternate interpretations' - specifically the zen thing - is being told, outright or by insinuation, that I'm too dumb to grasp and or appreciate it.  Someone wants to educate me, fine, but telling me I'm stupid if I don't fall into line isn't the brightest way to go about it.

[doinnothin]

Back to what we were talking about ...

Why were The Elements part of SMiLE anyway? What does that have to do with America?

Good question.
What even inspired Brian to do songs about the elements? Was it just a lark? Maybe you can provide some quotes about the elements from some books Brian read.

It seems like the elements are most closely connected with Brian's new age beliefs. Each astrological sign falls under one of the four elements. Is that possibly where Brian was coming from? What's really interesting is that Brian chose to focus on the negative aspect of fire. I think many approaches to the elements are respectful, recognizing the potential for each element to be not only destructive but also positive and creative. After all everything in the universe is made up, and depends on the four elements. Brian's version of fire is really purely negative, showcasing only the destructive aspect of fire. I really wonder where he got that from.

I was always think of SMiLE as half "American Gothic Trip" and half "Teenage Symphony to God". The Elements seem to fall on both sides of the fence (as other tracks) -- Fire being referred to as Mrs. O'Leary's Cow fits neatly into the Americana theme and into a celebration of the natural world (and presumably God's creation of it).

In reference to the astrological relationship to the Elements -- I don't think I really go along with it, but presuming Vega-Tables was a part of The Elements at some point, "Vega" is the second brightest star -- "Star"-Tables = Astrology? I don't think it mounts to much, but maybe it'll mean something to you.

[Chris Moise]

..but you're all equally rude and bitchy and discussion was going along perfectly well until Chris Moise came in here to tell everyone how dumb they were. Can we just knock it off?

I've done no such thing, at least not intentionally. If I left that impression then I apologize.

[OBLiO]

In reference to the astrological relationship to the Elements -- I don't think I really go along with it, but presuming Vega-Tables was a part of The Elements at some point, "Vega" is the second brightest star -- "Star"-Tables = Astrology? I don't think it mounts to much, but maybe it'll mean something to you.

The star Vega came to mind due to the spelling of Vega-Tables, plus there are astrological signs on the back of the original back cover. It's just one thought. Words are suggestive and can take you anywhere depending on what you think they might mean. Audience participation.

[Andrew G. Doe]

In reference to the astrological relationship to the Elements -- I don't think I really go along with it, but presuming Vega-Tables was a part of The Elements at some point, "Vega" is the second brightest star -- "Star"-Tables = Astrology? I don't think it mounts to much, but maybe it'll mean something to you.

The star Vega came to mind due to the spelling of Vega-Tables, plus there are astrological signs on the back of the original back cover. It's just one thought. Words are suggestive and can take you anywhere depending on what you think they might mean. Audience participation.

Brian has a huge interest in astronomy as a boy, which lasted until at least the Smile era.

[FUN³]

In reference to the astrological relationship to the Elements -- I don't think I really go along with it, but presuming Vega-Tables was a part of The Elements at some point, "Vega" is the second brightest star -- "Star"-Tables = Astrology? I don't think it mounts to much, but maybe it'll mean something to you.

The star Vega came to mind due to the spelling of Vega-Tables, plus there are astrological signs on the back of the original back cover. It's just one thought. Words are suggestive and can take you anywhere depending on what you think they might mean. Audience participation.

Brian has a huge interest in astronomy as a boy, which lasted until at least the Smile era.

more accurately it lasted until at least the Love You era.

[lance]

SMiLE, thematically, is a mess.

[OBLiO]

Brian has a huge interest in astronomy as a boy, which lasted until at least the Smile era.

A cornucopia of stars... I used to look at the stars all the time, not as much anymore. You can't see much of anything in the city anymore. I don't read horoscopes, although I did when I was younger. I read that due to the earths precession.. the wobble... that the alignments have shifted, anyway. Also, because we have free-will, our lives are dictated by our choices. So, you can be born under a sign, but everything after that is up to you. I read a book called the Message of the Sphinx and they talk about how they could determine when the Great Pyramid was built by using the stars. That the Giza Plateau is a map of Orion's belt. And then there are all the stone markers all over the planet that mark time. It's pretty amazing that the conditions allow us to exist here, at all.

[Andrew G. Doe]

SMiLE, thematically, is a mess.

Yup, that's been my contention: Brian tried to document all his current interests, whims and fancies, but they were too diverse.

Your mileage may of course vary.

[BiG GRiN]

Why were The Elements part of SMiLE anyway? What does that have to do with America?

The 'Elements' are totally part of America. The four elements are linked with Native Americans.

[A Million Units In Jan!]

Yup, that's been my contention: Brian tried to document all his current interests, whims and fancies, but they were too diverse.

And/or he didn't fully understand the things he was getting into. He absorbed so much information so quickly without taking the time to FULLY understand anything. Like the Zen deal-I believe that, sure, there may be some influence of Zen somewhere, but I don't think Brian fully understood the entire concept. He bounced from one thing to another so quickly, it all became a mess in his head.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

The 'Elements' are totally part of America. The four elements are linked with Native Americans.

Well, you could link the concept of elements to most major cultures in history.

Let's not forget that while the lyrical content of the album is often at times offering a counter-narrative on American history and doing so in the style of writers like Poe and Emerson, there is also a fairly significant indebtedness to English Romanticism. "Wind Chimes" is virtually a modern update of Coleridge's "Eolian Harp." In fact, the same poem's description of the "Cot o'ergrown" has a few similarities with Cabinessence. And, of course, "Child is Father of the Man" is a nod to Wordsworth. So, there is more going on here than just Americana.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Why were The Elements part of SMiLE anyway? What does that have to do with America?

'Cause the track is listed on the back cover ? 

OK, to apply your methods...

People crossed the water to reach America.

They cleared the land and the forests with fire.

They planted their crops in the earth.

They came to find a place they could breath the air of freedom.

ELEMENTary, my dead Watson ^_^

[Mahalo]

trees aren't earth, bark isn't earth, jungles aren't earth, fauna isn't earth. Elements are indivisible, the four classical elements make up everything. Wood and bark contain earth, but they also contain fire, which is "released" when wood burns. In the scheme of the classical elements everything is made up of the four elements. Why would the things you listed ever be specifically linked to earth? Because plants grow out of earth? Don't they also need water to grow? Why are you singling earth out specifically? I just don't see the connection. You're taking Earth to mean just some ambiguous concept of nature, but all four elements are equally natural and equally represented within nature. A jungle isn't any more earth than it is fire, water or wind.

Earth is associated with weight, gravity, mass, sturdiness, practicality. In what way does Fall Breaks convey any of those things?  If anything the background vocals sound like wind. Earth is clumsy. Plato thought each of the elements was composed of a different solid, Earth was made up of a bunch of cube shaped atoms basically, which caused it to crumble. Wind flowed. The background vocals flow like wind or water, not Earth.
To me Fall Breaks has nothing in common with Earth.

If all 4 elements are equally represented and equally natural in nature, hence my own interpretation of Fall Breaks is dead wrong, then why doesn't MOC contain or evoke all 4 elements? Must not be the fire element then...

Tell me again why trees, plants, and the like are not the earth element? Maybe they could represent them? Or is that too easy for you- maybe we need a thread about Plato's cubical molecules at the center of the earth to truly understand...

Also, since these elements are soooo ambiguous, then a theme and variation notion would make all the more sense...

[Mahalo]

In reference to the astrological relationship to the Elements -- I don't think I really go along with it, but presuming Vega-Tables was a part of The Elements at some point, "Vega" is the second brightest star -- "Star"-Tables = Astrology? I don't think it mounts to much, but maybe it'll mean something to you.

The star Vega came to mind due to the spelling of Vega-Tables, plus there are astrological signs on the back of the original back cover. It's just one thought. Words are suggestive and can take you anywhere depending on what you think they might mean. Audience participation.

That was well said. It is creative and I like it...audience participation and interpretation was such a key factor of the music and lyrics of SMiLE! Besides, you didn't come across as the sole person with all the knowledge whilst eveyone else is wrong...

[Mahalo]

They came to find a place they could breath the air of freedom.

Spoken like a true Brit!!

[Mahalo]

I'm holding to my theory on the chants: When you have Brian leading group chants with themes of water (the ocean), earth (vegetables, etc), and air (breathing), and the only "element" missing was fire for which he had already written music more visual than anything he could have done, I think he was testing ideas for his "suite".

And I say "suite" deliberately because of Peter Brown's book reporting that McCartney dropped in on a session for Brian's "Four Elements Suite", and now we have Mr. Doe's report of Van Dyke mentioning crossfading between musical sections related to the elements, making it a "suite" of sorts. I believe 100% that Brian wanted to work in some kind of vocal/chant aspects into his music, and it's something he definitely explored later.

The evidence of the chants cannot be dismissed as fantasy: It's too damn easy to plug that material into an "Elements" theme if he covers 3 out of the 4!

I think this is a good theory...at least as a foundation for a track with other aspects added...

[Bicyclerider]

There are 67 press accounts of the elements suite describing  earth, air, fire and water as the sections - so we know that was at least the intention at one point.

Vegatables (cornucopia version) was likely earth (the Holmes drawing caption, which could only have come from Van Dyke), fire we know, water - water chant for sure, but was that all that was going into the water section?

Brian was asked by Byron Preiss's researchers about the Elements and although I don't have the quote handy, the question went something like this:  We know water was I Love to Say Dada, and earth was Vegetables, what was Air going to be?  To which he responded with the now famous reply about an unfinished piano instrumental.

This was in 1978 - if Country Air had been air, that had been finished on Wild Honey, and surely Brian would have mentioned the title.

He didn't contradict the interviewers' assumption that water was Dada and earth was Vegetables, but he may have (and likely did) ignore that part of the question and simply address the air issue.  Interestingly, when the Preiss book described the Dada track, it is clear they are really describing the water chant.  Dada was first linked to Water by Carl in 1972 when he announced that Smile would be coming out and one track would be I Love to Say Dada (incorporating Cool Cool Water) - of course, Cool Cool Water was a Wild Honey track but was first attempted June 67.  Cool Cool Water is  similar musically to Dada.  And Brian made Dada part of the Elements on BWPS (but of course that was Darian's decision! ).

With Vegetables becoming its' own track, what could have replaced it as Earth?  Something that had been bumped out of it's original song, Heroes and Villains, perhaps?  Although I think Barnyard would have moved to I'm in Great Shape, it might make an interesting earth section.  Have to do an edit of that when I get the upgraded Barnyard in the new set.

[OBLiO]

Brian has a huge interest in astronomy as a boy, which lasted until at least the Smile era.

Finally read Goodbye Surfin... saw that in there... thing about that article I think might be happening.. I think the writer was looking for ways to give Brian an edge, but it comes off as manic at times... I had to go back and put time and space between certain happenings or quotes(if the quotes are verbatim). Without air, it all runs together and left me feeling like I would run out of breath trying to keep up. Interesting read, nonetheless... especially that pile of acetates mentioned.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Brian was asked by Byron Preiss's researchers about the Elements...

Sadly, he wasn't - all those boxed quotes are taken from various magazines down the years. Which would have been cool, if they'd been given a source... but they weren't and the few mystery quotes remain just that.

[OBLiO]

Suggested reading - Light The Lamp! - Peter Reum sheds a light on SMiLE
http://www.vandykeparks.com/miscfiles/opensky.html

I hope it's okay to post the link here. Everything you need to know is there.