Were the sections of The Elements ever enumerated?

[Andrew G. Doe]

Always remember that in every interview when he was asked about it, Brian stated that the 3rd 'movement' of BWPS was entirely a 2003/04 construct. The sequence might work, but it didn't work in 1966/67, because it didn't exist then.

At least on tape - maybe in BW's head it existed but we don't know for sure.

He was referring to the 3rd Movement which also included IIGS/IWBA/WS/OAH/GV not just the VT/WC/MOC/BH four part suite that many believe to be the Elements

It may have been a BWPS construct but if I remember the key boots all had that sequence for the Elements - it seemed a common thought back in the day and judging from this board even today

Common thought, as Andrew seems to be saying, doesn't mean credible.  DaDa (which you call "BH") didn't even exist until May '67, but for whatever reason, that reality seems to be routinely disregarded.  And what would the water chant have been for if not to go in The Elements?  And since The Elements, Wind Chimes and Vega-Tables were listed as separate tracks, how could the latter two have been part of The Elements?  There are so many inconsistencies here, but people seem to just tune them out.

There is a school of though that says "Vega-Tables" was originally going to be part of "The Elements" (as per booklet) until Brian decided to make it a separate track (as per back cover). I'm cool with that. Of course, you're left with a "Vega-Tables" shaped hole in "The Elements", then...

[Chris Brown]

Always remember that in every interview when he was asked about it, Brian stated that the 3rd 'movement' of BWPS was entirely a 2003/04 construct. The sequence might work, but it didn't work in 1966/67, because it didn't exist then.

At least on tape - maybe in BW's head it existed but we don't know for sure.

He was referring to the 3rd Movement which also included IIGS/IWBA/WS/OAH/GV not just the VT/WC/MOC/BH four part suite that many believe to be the Elements

It may have been a BWPS construct but if I remember the key boots all had that sequence for the Elements - it seemed a common thought back in the day and judging from this board even today

Common thought, as Andrew seems to be saying, doesn't mean credible.  DaDa (which you call "BH") didn't even exist until May '67, but for whatever reason, that reality seems to be routinely disregarded.  And what would the water chant have been for if not to go in The Elements?  And since The Elements, Wind Chimes and Vega-Tables were listed as separate tracks, how could the latter two have been part of The Elements?  There are so many inconsistencies here, but people seem to just tune them out.

There is a school of though that says "Vega-Tables" was originally going to be part of "The Elements" (as per booklet) until Brian decided to make it a separate track (as per back cover). I'm cool with that. Of course, you're left with a "Vega-Tables" shaped hole in "The Elements", then...

And that's probably why the "cornucopia" version of "Vega-Tables" is so short and doesn't really go anywhere else after a few verses - it was intended to be short and then segue into the next section.  Of course, that version has always sounded like a demo to me, but I can get on board with the idea that Brian cannibalized it from "The Elements" and it became it's own track.  That would signal to me that he wanted to ditch the idea of "The Elements" altogether, not necessarily creating a hole in the suite.  By January (if not earlier), I'd venture to guess that Brian considered "The Elements" dead, and tried to find other places to use the parts he'd already done.  By that time, the single was the priority, not an experimental album cut.

[Roger Ryan]

Here's a question:

Is "Water Chant" the actual name written on the session sheets or on the tape box?

Or do we call it "Water Chant" because it showed up in "Cool, Cool Water" three or four years later?

Sure, it sounds like the voices are saying "water", but the nonsense syllables are actually "wa-doo". I have a feeling the segment ended up in "Cool, Cool Water" the same way the "workshop" sound effects ended up at the end of "Do It Again": "hey, here's something we recorded but didn't use - let's stick it in this song".

I'm not saying it wasn't a very creative choice. I think the chant bridges the two sections of "Cool, Cool Water" beautifully. But unless the '66 session is documented as "Water Chant" (or "The Elements, Part 2"), I don't think there's any evidence in the track itself that it belonged in "The Elements". More likely that it would represent "water" than "I Love To Say Dada", but still no real evidence.

[Mikie]

Come on guys, keep it to PMs. I love what both of you bring to the table (I've lurked for a long time), but the sniping you do at each other does nothing other than bring down otherwise useful threads. I don't think any of us need you to defend us against the other and we'd probably all be best off if you just ignored each others posts at this point.

Only 8 posts on the board and this guy is playing Admin already.      But he's doin nothin.

It's called "Constructive confrontation". It makes for a good all-balls-out healthy discussion! Go with it! Have a thick skin! No wimps!

[Dunderhead]

You think if there was a wind track it would sound like eden ahbez's song "Tradewind" from his 1960 LP. An instrumental song with wind sound effects. Could that track have been the impetus of the whole enterprise? One would think a wind section would have had wind fx or perhaps the boys going "whooooooooooooosh" over it. Nothing like that exists though. Brian never had anyone make recordings of wind. You have to wonder why Brian never put in any work on this track. After some 10 months and 80 sessions isn't it a little odd that he never just knocked that one out? It certainly wasn't the most innovative premise for a song, why this would have given Brian any particular trouble is a mystery. Earth I can understand, how do you put earth sound effects in a song? But Wind?

[OBLiO]

Listening to BWPS the elements, to me, start in the middle of Great Shape and go all the way to the finish...wake up jump out of bed eat your breakfast and then face the elements... wood metal earth wind fire water ether... it's all in there.

[Andrew G. Doe]

One would think a wind section would have had wind fx or perhaps the boys going "whooooooooooooosh" over it. Nothing like that exists though.

As far as we know... plus it contradicts Brian's own description of "Air" as just a piano track. Also, assuming Brian was doing the classical elements thing, it would be Air, not Wind.

Of course, applying logic to Brian Wilson, The Beach Boys and/or Smile is at best a fruitless exercise. 

[GuyOnTheBeach]

The water section of elements was originally to be actual water sounds used as notes. I think it's in the Vosse article... Brian could find all the notes on the musical scale in the water sounds recorded and make something of it.

SLIGHTLY off topic (but in a way not), that kind of reminds me of the synthesizer bit in Cool, Cool Water, which to my ears sounds like water dripping

[Andrew G. Doe]

The water section of elements was originally to be actual water sounds used as notes. I think it's in the Vosse article... Brian could find all the notes on the musical scale in the water sounds recorded and make something of it.

SLIGHTLY off topic (but in a way not), that kind of reminds me of the synthesizer bit in Cool, Cool Water, which to my ears sounds like water dripping

According to SWD, they had to do that because all the Chamberlain tapes he'd spent months making had been wiped.

[OBLiO]

The water section of elements was originally to be actual water sounds used as notes. I think it's in the Vosse article... Brian could find all the notes on the musical scale in the water sounds recorded and make something of it.

SLIGHTLY off topic (but in a way not), that kind of reminds me of the synthesizer bit in Cool, Cool Water, which to my ears sounds like water dripping

Yeah, the moog... maybe the water sounds would have ended up in cool water from '67, but that song was on hold for awhile, but Cool Water and Da-Da and the water sound idea, I believe stem from the Water Element. Something else I noticed... the rythmic piano sound on "Cool Cool Water" is the same sound used on Aren't You Glad on Wild Honey. Gives a raindrop quality to the piano tone.

[OBLiO]

According to SWD, they had to do that because all the Chamberlain tapes he'd spent months making had been wiped.

Dagnabbit! I was hoping we were going to get to hear some that stuff.

[Bill Tobelman]

Why were The Elements part of SMiLE anyway? What does that have to do with America?

[Dunderhead]

Why were The Elements part of SMiLE anyway? What does that have to do with America?

Good question.
What even inspired Brian to do songs about the elements? Was it just a lark? Maybe you can provide some quotes about the elements from some books Brian read.

It seems like the elements are most closely connected with Brian's new age beliefs. Each astrological sign falls under one of the four elements. Is that possibly where Brian was coming from? What's really interesting is that Brian chose to focus on the negative aspect of fire. I think many approaches to the elements are respectful, recognizing the potential for each element to be not only destructive but also positive and creative. After all everything in the universe is made up, and depends on the four elements. Brian's version of fire is really purely negative, showcasing only the destructive aspect of fire. I really wonder where he got that from.

[Bill Tobelman]

Or they were the basic foundations of the whole thing. That's what elements are.

[drbeachboy]

Bad LSD trip, maybe?

[Bill Tobelman]

And good LSD trip maybe?

[OneEar/OneEye]

Love to Say Dada      

[Chris Moise]

This is starting to read like a parody of the worst aspects of this forum.

[Dunderhead]

This is starting to read like a parody of the worst aspects of this forum.

How so? People just keep saying stuff like this for no reason. It's really not clear what exactly you dislike about this discussion. Instead of contributing anything you just thread merda. It's old hat. You can't even be bothered to say what upsets you about any of this.

Are you referring to "Love to Say Dada" I'd agree that it's unlikely as wouldn't it be LSDD? If not ILTSDD. It's an interesting observation, very probably incorrect, but it's totally harmless and is at least worth considering. But noooooo, wouldn't want to spoil your precious SMiLE discussion.  

And what's wrong with wanting to understand Brian's motivations? What's the harm in asking WHY Brian wanted to do songs for the elements? Or WHERE he first got the inclination from? I think that's a totally appropriate and useful line of inquiry. Even AGD admits Brian had a lasting interest in astrology, the four elements are an important factor in astrology, three signs correspond to each of the four elements and these groupings are called triplicities. Is it in some way beyond belief that Brian may have been talking to his astrologer about the elements? Perhaps that connection might shed light on the elements mystery. That's only one possibility, the four elements are important in a number of esoteric beliefs that Brian was exposed to.

Understanding specifically what Brian's interest in the elements is, is totally prudent, on topic, interesting etc etc etc etc. There's absolutely no reason not to talk about it, and nobody in here is saying anything particularly outlandish. You're just being a grump.

"Oh no, people aren't talking about what I want to talk about, boo hoo hoo, woe is me"

Get over yourself.

I think that we need to make a new thread to serve as sort of a kid's table for Mr. Moise and his kind, sort of like people have at holiday meals. Just a place where the children can sit and play with their mashed potatoes so that the adults can get a little break from constant cries of "MOM, I'm booooooooored" and "But I don't like cranberries!"  

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Well, I have no reason to consider Smile to be a concept album. There are certainly thematic concerns but nothing that applies to every track either sonically or lyrically. This was a period for Brian where he was trying to come up with the most creative ideas that simply had not been done in pop music before, such as a religious hymn, a Western, and a Baroque-style conception for a suite, which is The Elements.

[18thofMay]

This is starting to read like a parody of the worst aspects of this forum.

How so? People just keep saying stuff like this for no reason. It's really not clear what exactly you dislike about this discussion. Instead of contributing anything you just thread merda. It's old hat. You can't even be bothered to say what upsets you about any of this.

Are you referring to "Love to Say Dada" I'd agree that it's unlikely as wouldn't it be LSDD? If not ILTSDD. It's an interesting observation, very probably incorrect, but it's totally harmless and is at least worth considering. But noooooo, wouldn't want to spoil your precious SMiLE discussion.  

And what's wrong with wanting to understand Brian's motivations? What's the harm in asking WHY Brian wanted to do songs for the elements? Or WHERE he first got the inclination from? I think that's a totally appropriate and useful line of inquiry. Even AGD admits Brian had a lasting interest in astrology, the four elements are an important factor in astrology, three signs correspond to each of the four elements and these groupings are called triplicities. Is it in some way beyond belief that Brian may have been talking to his astrologer about the elements? Perhaps that connection might shed light on the elements mystery. That's only one possibility, the four elements are important in a number of esoteric beliefs that Brian was exposed to.

Understanding specifically what Brian's interest in the elements is, is totally prudent, on topic, interesting etc etc etc etc. There's absolutely no reason not to talk about it, and nobody in here is saying anything particularly outlandish. You're just being a grump.

"Oh no, people aren't talking about what I want to talk about, boo hoo hoo, woe is me"

Get over yourself.

I think that we need to make a new thread to serve as sort of a kid's table for Mr. Moise and his kind, sort of like people have at holiday meals. Just a place where the children can sit and play with their mashed potatoes so that the adults can get a little break from constant cries of "MOM, I'm booooooooored" and "But I don't like cranberries!"  

Here you go again...

[Dunderhead]

blah blah blah, if you want to come in here and bitch don't act stunned when somebody calls you on it. You challenge the validity of this discussion? Well I challenge your challenge. Put up or shut up.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Why were The Elements part of SMiLE anyway? What does that have to do with America?

'Cause the track is listed on the back cover ?  

OK, to apply your methods...

People crossed the water to reach America.

They cleared the land and the forests with fire.

They planted their crops in the earth.

They came to find a place they could breath the air of freedom.

[Mike's Beard]

blah blah blah, if you want to come in here and bitch don't act stunned when somebody calls you on it. You challenge the validity of this discussion? Well I challenge your challenge. Put up or shut up.

Please don't stink up another thread.

[18thofMay]

blah blah blah, if you want to come in here and bitch don't act stunned when somebody calls you on it. You challenge the validity of this discussion? Well I challenge your challenge. Put up or shut up.

I really think you have issues, not sure if they are drug related at this point don't care. You are going round and round in circles contradicting your self is it so hard to let go of a false reality. I have a great life and have met some great people on here and other forums and whilst we don't always agree we respect each others knowledge and informed opinions.