Were the sections of The Elements ever enumerated?

[guitarfool2002]

The evidence exists in those chants from 1966: Vosse's "Teen Set" piece is indeed describing the underwater chant session exactly as it appears. And the "Water" themed section of those chants develops into a droning, meditative, and rhythmic chant onto which Brian is inspired to add tape echo effects...and it's quite amazing to consider it all came from Brian's basic directive to improvise an underwater scene as they were in the studio. That one skit worked, it worked very well to my ears, and as Vosse reported, Brian wanted to try it with the Beach Boys when they returned from the tour because he got something worthwhile on tape during this improvisation session, unlike other failed attempts.

It's as obvious as it can be when you hear the similarities between Water Chant and the "Underwater" skit by Vosse and the crew. I'd take that one to the bank, it's all on tape.

The experimental chant dates to November 1966, as the band was touring Europe. The Water Chant a.k.a. "Wha-Doo" chant was recorded later.

[Roger Ryan]

I haven't heard the "underwater" skit, but if the similarities are there, then it does seem pretty probable that the "Water Chant" would have found its way into "The Elements". As it is, BWPS does segue directly into it from "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow", although the "water" aspect of the chant is obscured by the new lyrics.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Why are we over complicating this

MOC - obviously is Fire
VT - obviously Earth - the song title and the booklet
WC - very likely Air despite what Brian says - the title says it all - plus all those pianos

Water - well probably DaDA - see BWPS for the answer

I don't think suggesting that Brian never got around to recording the Earth and Air sections of The Elements track is complicating anything. I think that's much more convincing than suggesting that Vegetables is Earth and Wind Chimes is Air. If Wind Chimes is "Air" because of the title, then that would make I'm In Great Shape an even likelier candidate as it has "'freshin' air around my head" in the lyric.

[Chris Moise]

I don't understand why the '66 handwritten list isn't given more weight. It came from Brian and it's the only 1966/67 track list known to exist. Obviously there is still much unknown/unfinished but that list is by far the best we have.

It's not given the weight it once was because...

1 - it's not Brian's handwriting (looks to be Carl's or Diane's, I forget which)...

2 - when Peter Reum showed it to him in the early 80s (granted, not the best period of his life), he said he'd never seen it before.

The feeling is that Capitol were screaming for something to put on the back cover and someone (not BW) hastily scrawled down the titles that they knew about.

Right but (as you know) none of that changes that it almost certainly came from Brian. Regardless of any extenuating circumstances that is what he delivered to the label and absent the discovery of any later list it's the best we have.

I'd be inclined to give it less weight if it wasn't for the fact that Brian didn't do any significant work outside of those titles in the preceding 3 months not to mention be period up to Derek Taylor's announcement. If there was a glut of Look or Holidays sessions in, let's say, Jan. 1967 I'd say it diminishes the importance of the tracklist but this is not the case.

[desmondo]

Why are we over complicating this

MOC - obviously is Fire
VT - obviously Earth - the song title and the booklet
WC - very likely Air despite what Brian says - the title says it all - plus all those pianos

Water - well probably DaDA - see BWPS for the answer

I don't think suggesting that Brian never got around to recording the Earth and Air sections of The Elements track is complicating anything. I think that's much more convincing than suggesting that Vegetables is Earth and Wind Chimes is Air. If Wind Chimes is "Air" because of the title, then that would make I'm In Great Shape an even likelier candidate as it has "'freshin' air around my head" in the lyric.

That's like saying Surf's Up is Water because of the word surf or Cabinessence is water because it has Grand Coolie Dam in the song

How do we know he never recorded Earth and Air???

[Chocolate Shake Man]

That's like saying Surf's Up is Water because of the word surf or Cabinessence is water because it has Grand Coolie Dam in the song

So you're highlighting the poorness of your own assertion now?

How do we know he never recorded Earth and Air???

Good question. Here's a good one along the same lines: how do you prove a negative?

[Andrew G. Doe]

How do we know he never recorded Earth and Air???

According to the Preiss book, he started "Air".

[desmondo]

That's like saying Surf's Up is Water because of the word surf or Cabinessence is water because it has Grand Coolie Dam in the song

So you're highlighting the poorness of your own assertion now?

How do we know he never recorded Earth and Air???

Good question. Here's a good one along the same lines: how do you prove a negative?

A. Not really cos my view is based on more than just a name - booklet, piano piece in WC, BWPS and various boots, etc, etc

B. How do you prove a negative - in a court of law or on a Smile Sessions Box Set but I suppose that even if Wind Chimes is identified as the air element then there will be many here who will say its not right

[Chocolate Shake Man]

A. Not really cos my view is based on more than just a name

So you're going back on your position that "the title says it all"?

booklet

What booklet suggests that Wind Chimes was Air?

piano piece in WC

Just because Wind Chimes has a piano piece in it doesn't make the song a piano piece. You could make this claim about a lot of Smile material based on that kind of reasoning.

BWPS and various boots, etc, etc

Neither of which are useful models for helping our understanding of Brian's 1966 vision for the album.

The fact is that by December of 1966, neither Wind Chimes nor Vegetables were considered part of The Elements. Furthermore, the recording sheet for Mrs. O'Leary's Fire lists the track as "The Elements: Fire". The same cannot be said for either Wind Chimes or Vegetables. In that case, we can say without question that neither at the recording stage nor in the track listing stage were either track considered part of The Elements.

B. How do you prove a negative - in a court of law or on a Smile Sessions Box Set but I suppose that even if Wind Chimes is identified as the air element then there will be many here who will say its not right

What do you mean "identified"? How will it be identified? Maybe some studio notes or a word spoken at sessions - but I would find that very surprising given that Wind Chimes appears to have been recorded well before Brian began work on The Elements, since nearly four months passed between the recording of Wind Chimes (recorded at the beginning of the Smile sessions) and Mrs. O'Leary's Fire (one of the last musical pieces recorded for Smile before Brian began focusing on vocals, H&V, and Vegetables). But if such documentation does exist, how could anyone "say its not right"?

[desmondo]

A. Not really cos my view is based on more than just a name

So you're going back on your position that "the title says it all"?

booklet

What booklet suggests that Wind Chimes was Air?

piano piece in WC

Just because Wind Chimes has a piano piece in it doesn't make the song a piano piece. You could make this claim about a lot of Smile material based on that kind of reasoning.

BWPS and various boots, etc, etc

Neither of which are useful models for helping our understanding of Brian's 1966 vision for the album.

The fact is that by December of 1966, neither Wind Chimes nor Vegetables were considered part of The Elements. Furthermore, the recording sheet for Mrs. O'Leary's Fire lists the track as "The Elements: Fire". The same cannot be said for either Wind Chimes or Vegetables. In that case, we can say without question that neither at the recording stage nor in the track listing stage were either track considered part of The Elements.

B. How do you prove a negative - in a court of law or on a Smile Sessions Box Set but I suppose that even if Wind Chimes is identified as the air element then there will be many here who will say its not right

What do you mean "identified"? How will it be identified? Maybe some studio notes or a word spoken at sessions - but I would find that very surprising given that Wind Chimes appears to have been recorded well before Brian began work on The Elements, since nearly four months passed between the recording of Wind Chimes (recorded at the beginning of the Smile sessions) and Mrs. O'Leary's Fire (one of the last musical pieces recorded for Smile before Brian began focusing on vocals, H&V, and Vegetables). But if such documentation does exist, how could anyone "say its not right"?

A. I think you'll find I was just referring to WIND Chimes re titles. The clue to air is in the word WIND

B. Booklet - I never said Air was in a booklet - I said Vegetables

C. Wind Chimes piano piece - yes agree you could say that about probably all of Smile - in fact I made that point myself - but in Wind Chimes case listen to 1.31 onwards on the 30 years box set - if I am not mistaken they sound awfully like a whole load of pianos.

D. BWPS/Bootlegs - Actually I partly agree although I think BWPS DOES offer an insight to 1966 SMILE that is supported by various bits and pieces - eg Prayer opens the album, H&V is a Cantina version, Worms is virtually untouched apart from the addition of 66 lyrics, OMP/YAMS as is, Barnyard virtually untouched and with 66 lyrics, Surf's Up virtually untouched apart from addition of 2nd movement strings, etc. Whilst I agree there are some parts I find difficult to accept as 66 Smile (segues, OAH, SFC and the make up of the 3rd movement for example), I think BWPS rightly forms the template for the forthcoming release.

The problem we all have is that we don't really know what the finished SMILE was going to be because it was never finished. And when you count them up how many tracks were totally finished - ie finally constructed and mixed before Smile was abandoned. Personally I don't think any were completely finished and in a state to be mastered with the exception of GV and maybe Prayer (if that counts).

E. What evidence do you have that by December 66 that neither Wind Chimes or VT were NOT part of the Elements??? As we know a load Smile stuff got recorded for certain songs then removed and sometimes put back in - the HV/IIGS/Barnyard piano demo for example, the endless Bicycle Rider themes, and so on

F. Identified - quite simply that the sleeve notes say that WC or part of it is the air part of The Elements. If it doesn't I will be totally cool with that - whatever the Elements turns out as (with explanations) is fine with me - I won't be arguing whether its right. I shall accept the integrity of those who put it together.

G. I accept that the timing of WC recording sessions may appear to be too early for the Elements although some took place after CE sessions) that doesn't rule out a decision to make it Air later - the only fact we know is that so far no firm evidence has ever surfaced about exactly what air was/is. Like everyone else on this board, I am speculating

H. Vegetables does have the booklet irrespective of recording dates - when did FH deliver the artwork by the way?

Anyway on the wider issue, we all have our theories about what Smile would have been and we all respect each others views which is great.

I can't wait for the boxset to be released - it will no doubt divide the board just as BWPS has

I love the Smile music I have heard (66 or BWPS although I think the instrumental tracks from 66 are far far superior to the BWPS versions). It is the perfect blend of Brian's musical genius, VDP fitting lyrics, the musicianship of the Wrecking Crew, and where we've heard them the vocals of the Beach Boys.

Again from a personal point of view Smile is all about, Heroes and Villains (whatever version you can dream up with IIGS, Cantina, YAMS etc) but not Smiley Smile), Wonderful, Cabinessence, Surf's Up. Those songs were written in the sandbox (there may be a couple more), VDP and Brian working together on their Gothic Trip.

A Smile album with the following tracks

H&V, IIGS, BY, SU, CE, YAMS, OMP, W, DYLW would be good enough for me

[Andrew G. Doe]

E. What evidence do you have that by December 66 that neither Wind Chimes or VT were NOT part of the Elements??? As we know a load Smile stuff got recorded for certain songs then removed and sometimes put back in - the HV/IIGS/Barnyard piano demo for example, the endless Bicycle Rider themes, and so on

They're listed as separate tracks on the back cover, which means that for at least a few days in mid-December 1966, they weren't part of "The Elements".

[desmondo]

E. What evidence do you have that by December 66 that neither Wind Chimes or VT were NOT part of the Elements??? As we know a load Smile stuff got recorded for certain songs then removed and sometimes put back in - the HV/IIGS/Barnyard piano demo for example, the endless Bicycle Rider themes, and so on

They're listed as separate tracks on the back cover, which means that for at least a few days in mid-December 1966, they weren't part of "The Elements".

AGD - you yourself said the list was unreliable and that wasn't Brian's - Diane's writing at least I think you said. Also was the back cover properly printed - and add to the fact they can't even spell properly means that back cover wasn't signed off by The Beach Boys - diminishing its status. Does the specific absence of Barnyard, Prayer and YAMS means they weren't going t be included in December 66???

[Chocolate Shake Man]

A. I think you'll find I was just referring to WIND Chimes re titles. The clue to air is in the word WIND

Yes, but now we're back to where we were before. If you think that the clue to air is the word "WIND", then why is it perposterous that the clue to air may be the word "AIR" that basically begins I'm In Great Shape - a song, one could suggest, about getting outdoors in the open country.

I think it's amusing that you find that idea perposterous that I'm in Great Shape is "air" because it contains the word "air" but absolutely plausible that Wind Chimes is "air" because the contains the word "wind". Your attempts to critique IIGS as air only served to contradict your own position. You noted: "That's like saying Surf's Up is Water because of the word surf". What's interesting is that the word "Surf" is not the same as the word "Water" but the word "Air" is the same as the word "Air" but not the same as the word "Wind". By your own standards, IIGS is more likely a candidate for Air than Wind Chimes. But, of course, my own position is that there isn't much evidence to suggest that either track was Air.

B. Booklet - I never said Air was in a booklet - I said Vegetables

That's funny because if you follow the thread that led you to use the booklet as a clue, you'll find that in fact we have been specifically talking about Wind Chimes. Let me show you how the conversation went:

You: WC - very likely Air despite what Brian says - the title says it all - plus all those pianos
Me: If Wind Chimes is "Air" because of the title, then that would make I'm In Great Shape an even likelier candidate as it has "'freshin' air around my head" in the lyric.
You: That's like saying Surf's Up is Water because of the word surf or Cabinessence is water because it has Grand Coolie Dam in the song
Me: So you're highlighting the poorness of your own assertion now?
You: Not really cos my view is based on more than just a name - booklet, piano piece in WC, BWPS and various boots, etc, etc
Me: What booklet suggests that Wind Chimes was Air?
You: I never said Air was in a booklet - I said Vegetables

Yes, we have talked about Vegetables throughout but you'll note that my point that "you're highlighting the poorness of your own assertion" was strictly connected to our discussion on Wind Chimes. The fact that you brought up the booklet in response to that was mere confusion if you didn't mean to be talking about Wind Chimes.

C. Wind Chimes piano piece - yes agree you could say that about probably all of Smile - in fact I made that point myself - but in Wind Chimes case listen to 1.31 onwards on the 30 years box set - if I am not mistaken they sound awfully like a whole load of pianos.

Of course. But that has nothing to do with what Brian has said about Air. He has never described as a song that has "a whole load of pianos" that come in about halfway through.

D. BWPS/Bootlegs - Actually I partly agree although I think BWPS DOES offer an insight to 1966 SMILE that is supported by various bits and pieces - eg Prayer opens the album

Well, that's not BWPS offering insight. BWPS itself was led to picking Our Prayer as the opening track because we know that that's where Brian intended the track to go, as per the original recording sessions. It was the original sessions that offered insight for the construction of BWPS, not the other way around.

H&V is a Cantina version

We always knew there was a Cantina version of H&V in the Smile era. Like Surf's Up on BWPS though, the BWPS version of H&V shows how the primary goal of BWPS was plainly to not to try to replicate any conclusive intentions that Brian may have had for Smile. After all, H&V on BWPS is mostly the Smiley Smile version recorded after Smile had been junked with Cantina thrown in for good measure.

Worms is virtually untouched apart from the addition of 66 lyrics, OMP/YAMS as is, Barnyard virtually untouched and with 66 lyrics,

How does Brian leaving songs untouched give us any insight into Smile that we didn't already have?

Surf's Up virtually untouched apart from addition of 2nd movement strings, etc.

And the Child ending that wasn't added until 1971.

Whilst I agree there are some parts I find difficult to accept as 66 Smile (segues, OAH, SFC and the make up of the 3rd movement for example), I think BWPS rightly forms the template for the forthcoming release.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. How will it be a template?

E. What evidence do you have that by December 66 that neither Wind Chimes or VT were NOT part of the Elements??? As we know a load Smile stuff got recorded for certain songs then removed and sometimes put back in - the HV/IIGS/Barnyard piano demo for example, the endless Bicycle Rider themes, and so on

Andrew dealt with this above. The track listing given to Capitol stressed that Wind Chimes and Vegetables and The Elements were all separate tracks. The difference between the HV/IIGS/Barnyard example is that there is no proof that Wind Chimes was EVER part of The Elements and, I don't believe, much proof to suggest that Vegetables as we know it was part of it either.

F. Identified - quite simply that the sleeve notes say that WC or part of it is the air part of The Elements.

Is or was? There is no doubt that in absence of an actual "Air" track, Wind Chimes has performed that role many a-time but that doesn't give us any indication of what The Elements was.

If it doesn't I will be totally cool with that - whatever the Elements turns out as (with explanations) is fine with me - I won't be arguing whether its right. I shall accept the integrity of those who put it together.

But we're not just talking about what "the Elements turn out as". If they don't have an existing track for "The Elements: Air" or "The Elements: Earth" then there's only so much explaining they can do.

G. I accept that the timing of WC recording sessions may appear to be too early for the Elements although some took place after CE sessions) that doesn't rule out a decision to make it Air later - the only fact we know is that so far no firm evidence has ever surfaced about exactly what air was/is. Like everyone else on this board, I am speculating

Yes. So, then, if that's the case, why did you introduce your speculation as an attempt to make things less complicated?

H. Vegetables does have the booklet irrespective of recording dates - when did FH deliver the artwork by the way?

Great question - I was wondering that myself.

Maybe Andrew can clear this up but I would imagine that the drawings for Vegetables were done largely before the Smile version of Vegetable was tracked (I thought it was a later Smile number)

[Dunderhead]

In the Vosse interview he talks about The Elements. He says it had 4 parts,

"For example, he was doing a four part suite called "The Elements", and the fire section of its was all done with percussion instruments. It was like Stravinsky. It was beautifully done, and lasted about two minutes. You've heard all about that thing, with the tape and the fire destroying it. Well that happened, but it didn't mean anything. But at the same time he did that, he took the tail end of "Wind Chimes" - which the way it was originally recorded, was again much more beautiful than on Smiley Smile - and he had a minute and a half tag on it where he took a stand-up tack piano and a grand piano and a track at a time did little music-box overdubs; and then he went in and mixed them with different echoes on different channels into...I've never heard anything like..."

Could he be saying that part is Air? Maybe, it's not clear if he means to relate the two tracks.
Both Anderle and Vosse have said it was a four part suite. Which is seeming like a stronger confirmation that as it was originally conceived it had four parts.

As for the Tracklist note, eh, I'm pretty sure this was something like, Carl was trying to gingerly get Brian to finish. Maybe he convinced Brian to just let him do it, so he went to the tape vault and wrote down a bunch of titles. I don't think Carl had a lot of knowledge of SMiLE, but it does sound like he sat in on sessions when he was around, so he probably knew enough to pick out the 12 songs he thought most important. Like he knew that Heroes was a big deal, and Surf's Up, and he had to put GV on there, but when it came to Holidays or Child is the Father? Maybe he was less sure. I don't think it means anything, it's not a reliable indicator of anything. it just marks a really bad event in the SMiLE timeline, when the backcover has a different lineup than the actual album.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

AGD - you yourself said the list was unreliable and that wasn't Brian's - Diane's writing at least I think you said. Also was the back cover properly printed - and add to the fact they can't even spell properly means that back cover wasn't signed off by The Beach Boys - diminishing its status.

I know you didn't ask me but I would find it very hard to believe that Brian didn't have input into that list. Whoever wrote the list, it shows a pretty intimate familiarity with the tracks. The list indicates that Brian was very much involved in its creation. He probably dictated the list, is my thought. See my remarks regarding "Prayer" below.

Does the specific absence of Barnyard, Prayer and YAMS means they weren't going t be included in December 66???

Barnyard very early on was just a "section" of Heroes and Villains and clearly it was never meant to be anything other than a section within another song. There is also a "specific absence" of Who Ran the Iron Horse? despite sessions devoted to it, but we know damn well why that's the case.

Brian himself indicated in the vocal sessions for "Prayer" that the Prayer was not meant to be a track but an opener - obviously attached to whatever the first track was going to be. The fact that both Brian's own words and the list corroborate each other is, I think, pretty compelling evidence that Brian had a strong part to play in that list, whether it was his handwriting or not.

Sunshine would have been part of Old Master Painter.

[Dunderhead]

AGD - you yourself said the list was unreliable and that wasn't Brian's - Diane's writing at least I think you said. Also was the back cover properly printed - and add to the fact they can't even spell properly means that back cover wasn't signed off by The Beach Boys - diminishing its status.

I know you didn't ask me but I would find it very hard to believe that Brian didn't have input into that list. Whoever wrote the list, it shows a pretty intimate familiarity with the tracks. The list indicates that Brian was very much involved in its creation. He probably dictated the list, is my thought. See my remarks regarding "Prayer" below.

Does the specific absence of Barnyard, Prayer and YAMS means they weren't going t be included in December 66???

Barnyard very early on was just a "section" of Heroes and Villains and clearly it was never meant to be anything other than a section within another song. There is also a "specific absence" of Who Ran the Iron Horse? despite sessions devoted to it, but we know damn well why that's the case.

Brian himself indicated that that in the vocal sessions for "Prayer" that the Prayer was not meant to be a track but an opener - obviously attached to whatever the first track was going to be. The fact that both Brian's own words and the list corroborate each other is, I think, pretty compelling evidence that Brian had a strong part to play in that list, whether it was his handwriting or not.

Sunshine would have been part of Old Master Painter.

I really think it's Carl. Carl was at the Prayer session so he would have remembered that. Also why would Brian's wife be asked for a tracklisting? Was she that involved with Brian's affairs? Was she present at Band meetings and meetings with Capitol? Maybe someone who knows more than me can answer that, but to me it sounds unlikely and I wouldn't have guessed she was that involved. They say the woman makes the man, but it sounds like Diane was kind of lax in her relationship with Brian, otherwise wouldn't we have SMiLE? Of course all that is just my interpretation of the situation.
Carl on the otherhand? It sounds like he was more up on the project than anyone, he's always been it's strongest supporter. It seems far more likely that he would have been asked for a tracklisting. I imagine Brian didn't have any input other than just telling Carl that if he wanted to give something to Capitol he could.

[Roger Ryan]

Marilyn was Brian's wife at the time, not Diane.

Diane did a lot of office work for the Beach Boys, filling out session time sheets, etc. It's not a complete stretch to imagine that she might have wrote down that list based on something Brian told her.

The list does seem to be fairly substantial in correctly identifying the tracks we know Brian was working most intently on around December, 1966. The parentheses around "The Old Master Painter" suggests that the person writing the list wasn't certain that track was going to be included (or maybe it would be under a different title); the fact that the parentheses were scratched out suggests that the writer of the list got confirmation that a track under that title would be included.

[desmondo]

A. I think you'll find I was just referring to WIND Chimes re titles. The clue to air is in the word WIND

Yes, but now we're back to where we were before. If you think that the clue to air is the word "WIND", then why is it perposterous that the clue to air may be the word "AIR" that basically begins I'm In Great Shape - a song, one could suggest, about getting outdoors in the open country.

I think it's amusing that you find that idea perposterous that I'm in Great Shape is "air" because it contains the word "air" but absolutely plausible that Wind Chimes is "air" because the contains the word "wind". Your attempts to critique IIGS as air only served to contradict your own position. You noted: "That's like saying Surf's Up is Water because of the word surf". What's interesting is that the word "Surf" is not the same as the word "Water" but the word "Air" is the same as the word "Air" but not the same as the word "Wind". By your own standards, IIGS is more likely a candidate for Air than Wind Chimes. But, of course, my own position is that there isn't much evidence to suggest that either track was Air.

B. Booklet - I never said Air was in a booklet - I said Vegetables

That's funny because if you follow the thread that led you to use the booklet as a clue, you'll find that in fact we have been specifically talking about Wind Chimes. Let me show you how the conversation went:

You: WC - very likely Air despite what Brian says - the title says it all - plus all those pianos
Me: If Wind Chimes is "Air" because of the title, then that would make I'm In Great Shape an even likelier candidate as it has "'freshin' air around my head" in the lyric.
You: That's like saying Surf's Up is Water because of the word surf or Cabinessence is water because it has Grand Coolie Dam in the song
Me: So you're highlighting the poorness of your own assertion now?
You: Not really cos my view is based on more than just a name - booklet, piano piece in WC, BWPS and various boots, etc, etc
Me: What booklet suggests that Wind Chimes was Air?
You: I never said Air was in a booklet - I said Vegetables

Yes, we have talked about Vegetables throughout but you'll note that my point that "you're highlighting the poorness of your own assertion" was strictly connected to our discussion on Wind Chimes. The fact that you brought up the booklet in response to that was mere confusion if you didn't mean to be talking about Wind Chimes.

C. Wind Chimes piano piece - yes agree you could say that about probably all of Smile - in fact I made that point myself - but in Wind Chimes case listen to 1.31 onwards on the 30 years box set - if I am not mistaken they sound awfully like a whole load of pianos.

Of course. But that has nothing to do with what Brian has said about Air. He has never described as a song that has "a whole load of pianos" that come in about halfway through.

D. BWPS/Bootlegs - Actually I partly agree although I think BWPS DOES offer an insight to 1966 SMILE that is supported by various bits and pieces - eg Prayer opens the album

Well, that's not BWPS offering insight. BWPS itself was led to picking Our Prayer as the opening track because we know that that's where Brian intended the track to go, as per the original recording sessions. It was the original sessions that offered insight for the construction of BWPS, not the other way around.

H&V is a Cantina version

We always knew there was a Cantina version of H&V in the Smile era. Like Surf's Up on BWPS though, the BWPS version of H&V shows how the primary goal of BWPS was plainly to not to try to replicate any conclusive intentions that Brian may have had for Smile. After all, H&V on BWPS is mostly the Smiley Smile version recorded after Smile had been junked with Cantina thrown in for good measure.

Worms is virtually untouched apart from the addition of 66 lyrics, OMP/YAMS as is, Barnyard virtually untouched and with 66 lyrics,

How does Brian leaving songs untouched give us any insight into Smile that we didn't already have?

Surf's Up virtually untouched apart from addition of 2nd movement strings, etc.

And the Child ending that wasn't added until 1971.

Whilst I agree there are some parts I find difficult to accept as 66 Smile (segues, OAH, SFC and the make up of the 3rd movement for example), I think BWPS rightly forms the template for the forthcoming release.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. How will it be a template?

E. What evidence do you have that by December 66 that neither Wind Chimes or VT were NOT part of the Elements??? As we know a load Smile stuff got recorded for certain songs then removed and sometimes put back in - the HV/IIGS/Barnyard piano demo for example, the endless Bicycle Rider themes, and so on

Andrew dealt with this above. The track listing given to Capitol stressed that Wind Chimes and Vegetables and The Elements were all separate tracks. The difference between the HV/IIGS/Barnyard example is that there is no proof that Wind Chimes was EVER part of The Elements and, I don't believe, much proof to suggest that Vegetables as we know it was part of it either.

F. Identified - quite simply that the sleeve notes say that WC or part of it is the air part of The Elements.

Is or was? There is no doubt that in absence of an actual "Air" track, Wind Chimes has performed that role many a-time but that doesn't give us any indication of what The Elements was.

If it doesn't I will be totally cool with that - whatever the Elements turns out as (with explanations) is fine with me - I won't be arguing whether its right. I shall accept the integrity of those who put it together.

But we're not just talking about what "the Elements turn out as". If they don't have an existing track for "The Elements: Air" or "The Elements: Earth" then there's only so much explaining they can do.

G. I accept that the timing of WC recording sessions may appear to be too early for the Elements although some took place after CE sessions) that doesn't rule out a decision to make it Air later - the only fact we know is that so far no firm evidence has ever surfaced about exactly what air was/is. Like everyone else on this board, I am speculating

Yes. So, then, if that's the case, why did you introduce your speculation as an attempt to make things less complicated?

H. Vegetables does have the booklet irrespective of recording dates - when did FH deliver the artwork by the way?

Great question - I was wondering that myself.

Maybe Andrew can clear this up but I would imagine that the drawings for Vegetables were done largely before the Smile version of Vegetable was tracked (I thought it was a later Smile number)

All good points but a lot of this discussion (yours and mine got lost in translation)

I am going to stick with what I said - we are in danger of over complicating simply because we don't know - the truth may be a lot simpler than many of us believe

Its been fun - I've been waiting for a discussion like this

Happy to have a pint on it with you

My Elements - MOC, VT, WC, ILTSD

Yours???

[Dunderhead]

Marilyn was Brian's wife at the time, not Diane.

Diane did a lot of office work for the Beach Boys, filling out session time sheets, etc. It's not a complete stretch to imagine that she might have wrote down that list based on something Brian told her.

The list does seem to be fairly substantial in correctly identifying the tracks we know Brian was working most intently on around December, 1966. The parentheses around "The Old Master Painter" suggests that the person writing the list wasn't certain that track was going to be included (or maybe it would be under a different title); the fact that the parentheses were scratched out suggests that the writer of the list got confirmation that a track under that title would be included.

 

[Andrew G. Doe]

H. Vegetables does have the booklet irrespective of recording dates - when did FH deliver the artwork by the way?

Great question - I was wondering that myself.

Maybe Andrew can clear this up but I would imagine that the drawings for Vegetables were done largely before the Smile version of Vegetable was tracked (I thought it was a later Smile number)

The purchase order for the booklets was requested December 8th, and issued by 12/19: working backwards, I'd say the artwork had to have been handed in by early October at the latest.

[Andrew G. Doe]

In the Vosse interview he talks about The Elements. He says it had 4 parts,

"For example, he was doing a four part suite called "The Elements", and the fire section of its was all done with percussion instruments.

Excuse me ? All done with percussion instruments ? I think the credibility of someone's recollection just took a big hit. 

[Andrew G. Doe]

Marilyn was Brian's wife at the time, not Diane.

Diane did a lot of office work for the Beach Boys, filling out session time sheets, etc. It's not a complete stretch to imagine that she might have wrote down that list based on something Brian told her.

Diane did much more than "office work" - she was the contractor for just about every Smile session we have documentation for.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I really think it's Carl. Carl was at the Prayer session so he would have remembered that. Also why would Brian's wife be asked for a tracklisting? Was she that involved with Brian's affairs? Was she present at Band meetings and meetings with Capitol? Maybe someone who knows more than me can answer that, but to me it sounds unlikely and I wouldn't have guessed she was that involved. They say the woman makes the man, but it sounds like Diane was kind of lax in her relationship with Brian, otherwise wouldn't we have SMiLE? Of course all that is just my interpretation of the situation.
Carl on the otherhand? It sounds like he was more up on the project than anyone, he's always been it's strongest supporter. It seems far more likely that he would have been asked for a tracklisting. I imagine Brian didn't have any input other than just telling Carl that if he wanted to give something to Capitol he could.

Apart from the Diane/Marilyn thing, I don't think the list gives us any inidication who was "asked for a tracklisting". To be honest, I highly doubt Capitol would have asked Carl. Maybe if it was 1970. But it wasn't. Aside from the stage show, Carl was hardly the kind of leader-figure at this point that he became a few years later. In 1966, Carl was a 20-year old Wilson brother who only even only just started getting lead vocal parts. If anything, the person who would have been asked ultimately, would have been Brian. If Brian didn't write the list, then whoever did (maybe Carl, maybe Diane, maybe someone else) had some tremendous insights into Brian's plans for the album - so much so, that I would ultimately be very surprised that Brian didn't dictate or, at the very least, approve of the list.

Furthermore, Brian had some pretty solid ideas about the album at a certain point. The fact that he knew that Our Prayer wouldn't be a track but would instead just be an intro shows that he had a notion about how certain things, at least, would be structured. And more over, he freely would share that information with others. Now, I think at a certain point, his idea about the album became less firm and it probably would be something different every day. But I think there were times when he had a pretty clear picture about the album and I think, if anything, early to mid-December 1966, was right in that wheelhouse.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I am going to stick with what I said - we are in danger of over complicating simply because we don't know - the truth may be a lot simpler than many of us believe

And again, I'm confused why you think that saying that "Air" and "Earth" were never recorded is more complicated than saying that Air is Wind Chimes and Earth is Vegetables? Does the former really require that much untangling?

Like you say, "the truth may be" that WC is Air and V is Earth, but there is certainly little evidence to support that at the moment.

Its been fun - I've been waiting for a discussion like this

Happy to have a pint on it with you

Deal!

My Elements - MOC, VT, WC, ILTSD

Yours???

Well, I don't really have one. If I were to compile Smile - the last time I tried was around 2001 and I haven't listened to it in probably eight years - I would either not have a track called The Elements or The Elements would just be MOC and the Water Chant, and maybe I Wanna Be Around to close things up, not that it would really represent one of the Elements. It's just that it was recorded the day after Fire, Carol Kaye has stressed a connection, and it just reminds me of a scene from the movie Pleasantville where they put out a fire.

[Andrew G. Doe]

In the Vosse interview he talks about The Elements. He says it had 4 parts,

"For example, he was doing a four part suite called "The Elements", and the fire section of its was all done with percussion instruments. It was like Stravinsky. It was beautifully done, and lasted about two minutes. You've heard all about that thing, with the tape and the fire destroying it. Well that happened, but it didn't mean anything. But at the same time he did that, he took the tail end of "Wind Chimes" - which the way it was originally recorded, was again much more beautiful than on Smiley Smile - and he had a minute and a half tag on it where he took a stand-up tack piano and a grand piano and a track at a time did little music-box overdubs; and then he went in and mixed them with different echoes on different channels into...I've never heard anything like..."

Could he be saying that part is Air? Maybe, it's not clear if he means to relate the two tracks.

That bit rang a bell - took me a while, but I found it: Teen Set 1966

"It is a balmy afternoon in Hollywood.

Brian Wilson comes into Studio 3 at Western Recorders for an overdubbing session.

In the booth his personal eight-track tape machine is ready to roll (bit of artistic license here  ).

In the studio an old, upright honky-tonk piano and Brian's beautiful black grand piano wait under the microphones (again, nonsense).

"I have an idea, I'm not sure exactly how this is going to work, but we'll try it."

Brian goes to his piano and signals Chuck, the engineer to roll the tape.  He plays a simple music box melody.  The tape is run back.  On a second track he adds some tinkles on the honky-tonk piano.

For about half an hour Wilson goes over the same piece, filling the eight tracks with counterpoints, syncopated gates and notions.

"OK, let's hear it."

Wilson in the control room close to the centre speaker, listens to the playback.  He rushes to the board and supervises the throwing of switches and turning of knobs.  More echo on the third track, a touch of reverb on the second honky-tonk overdub, this track dry and the other with more highs.  Something happens to the sounds; they change, they move around and are transformed into a work of sheer beauty.

Everyone in the booth has seen and heard the entire process."

Sounds awfully like the "Bicycle Rider" theme to me.