Classic Rock Outtakes Industry:where do we go from here?

[JohnMill]

The original unaltered version is actually one of the highlights of the Get Back sessions.

This really isn't saying much about "Mailman", as I think The Beatles tear into this song with all the enthusiasm and energy of waking up with a hangover and realizing you have to be at work in an hour.

I never understood the appeal of the "Get Back" stuff. I enjoy listening as a fan, but it sounds so dreary, especially the time they spent at Twickenham, where they sound cold and tired most of the time. The highlights are there but are few and far-between. Just personal preference.

I think it's just a case of too much of one thing.  Back when "Sweet Apple Trax" came out in the seventies, many collectors wore the grooves out of those records.  They were a revelation at the time as bootleggers coincidentally (or wisely?) chose one of the more enjoyable sessions musically (1-9-69) to canonize.  However as time wore on and more and more material began to get pressed to wax we all came to realize how dreary these sessions were.  So by the time some thought was put into the process as far as organizing and releasing this material in both chronological order and high sound quality most of us were already sick of it.

To me the best way to listen to the "Get Back" sessions is to get yourself a copy of Sulpy's DDSI and the "A/B Road" set and when something that Doug mentions interests you, cue up the track and hear for yourself what he is writing about.  For me the best part of having all the "Get Back" sessions at my fingertips after all these years was being able to go back and hear first hand some of the conversations between The Beatles which were detailed in DDSI but for time constraint reasons were left unbooted for many years.

[Mike's Beard]

Speaking of Anthology, the documentary never really makes clear what caused The Beatles to seemingly become fed up with each other pretty much overnight. Sgt. Pepper was their biggest critical and commercial success yet, forged by a band with an unified artistic vision and they are still clearly all on the same page musically for Magical Mystery Tour. Then the White Album happens, with many songs practically solo performances from their composers. 3 songwriters and their drummer all pulling in completely different directions. By the time of the Let It Be sessions it's clear that the group just had no inspiration or desire to work with each other period. What made it fall apart so quickly? John bringing Yoko to recording sessions and George being tired of being the group's distant third songwriter can only account for so much.

[pixletwin]

Speaking of Anthology, the documentary never really makes clear what caused The Beatles to seemingly become fed up with each other pretty much overnight. Sgt. Pepper was their biggest critical and commercial success yet, forged by a band with an unified artistic vision and they are still clearly all on the same page musically for Magical Mystery Tour. Then the White Album happens, with many songs practically solo performances from their composers. 3 songwriters and their drummer all pulling in completely different directions. By the time of the Let It Be sessions it's clear that the group just had no inspiration or desire to work with each other period. What made it fall apart so quickly? John bringing Yoko to recording sessions and George being tired of being the group's distant third songwriter can only account for so much.

It wasn't over night. It began in 66 when they stopped touring and it was a long slow death. I thought the doc did a pretty good job documenting that.

[JohnMill]

Speaking of Anthology, the documentary never really makes clear what caused The Beatles to seemingly become fed up with each other pretty much overnight. Sgt. Pepper was their biggest critical and commercial success yet, forged by a band with an unified artistic vision and they are still clearly all on the same page musically for Magical Mystery Tour. Then the White Album happens, with many songs practically solo performances from their composers. 3 songwriters and their drummer all pulling in completely different directions. By the time of the Let It Be sessions it's clear that the group just had no inspiration or desire to work with each other period. What made it fall apart so quickly? John bringing Yoko to recording sessions and George being tired of being the group's distant third songwriter can only account for so much.

I think it's best addressed by Ringo's comment about divorce where people don't just suddenly one day up and decide to get to get divorced, instead it's just many years of misery.  The Beatles also just started to grow apart both personally and professionally.  John and Paul got to the point where the realized that they didn't necessarily need the other to be successful and were more then capable songwriters on their own.  This was something that obviously evolved over a long period of time but was a contributing factor to the breakup of the band.  Instead of writing with each other (either nose to nose or just bringing compositions around for the other to evaluate and enhance) they simply began contributing their own material to the collective pot without much input from the other.  

Also personally they began to expand ranks to include other individuals in their group where previously it was a more exclusive social circle.  The obvious addition would be Yoko Ono but both Paul and George also began to work with other artists.  In particular once George began to work with other musicians such as Donovan, Jackie Lomax and Bob Dylan he began to get feedback from all of them that he was more than a competent musician and was paid respect that he felt he had never received from the members of his own group.  Although he never comes out and states it his comments of going from playing with "Bob Dylan and The Band in Woodstock" to the "Winter Of Discontent with The Beatles" seems to indicate how different the two atmospheres were for him.

Then there were of course other issues that had nothing to do with the music itself but nonetheless was impacting the band.  Although for whatever reason it's never brought up in any official Beatles documentary, John's experiments with heroin in late 1968/early 1969 obviously had a detrimental effect on band relations.  Sulpy concludes as much but a cursory listen to the "Get Back" sessions would probably cause most fans to draw a similar conclusion.
 
The death of Brian Epstein also weighed heavy on the overall direction of the group.  By 1967 Brian wasn't as integral a figure in The Beatles success as he had been in previous years but his death did leave a hole in the group as far as leadership went.  After Brian passed, most of The Beatles projects began to be instigated by Paul which eventually was something that the other Beatles began to resent.  John comments about "Paul had the idea he was going to rehearse us" or "It was time for another Beatle movie again" are indicative of this.

Epstein's death also necessitated or at the very least gave birth to the idea of "Apple" which in the end probably did more to bring about an end to the group than anything else.  The story of Apple and it's demise is a long and winding one but the bottom line seems to be that The Beatles got involved in a project that was way over their heads and by mid-69 spent a great deal of time at meetings regarding how to set things right again.  They were trying to pull out of the mess they had made for themselves and while none of the four went bankrupt as the result of the bad business model, the problems at Apple and arguments about how to solve these problems eventually put an end to The Beatles in my opinion.

[punkinhead]

What BB album would ever come close to having a box set sold for its sessions like Pet Sounds and the delayed Smile Boxed set?

The only thing I could see is a Dennis Wilson boxed set of pre POB material.

[hypehat]

Either that or a early 70's set, seeing as they have outtakes coming out of their ears for that era.

[Jay]

Speaking of Anthology, the documentary never really makes clear what caused The Beatles to seemingly become fed up with each other pretty much overnight. Sgt. Pepper was their biggest critical and commercial success yet, forged by a band with an unified artistic vision and they are still clearly all on the same page musically for Magical Mystery Tour. Then the White Album happens, with many songs practically solo performances from their composers. 3 songwriters and their drummer all pulling in completely different directions. By the time of the Let It Be sessions it's clear that the group just had no inspiration or desire to work with each other period. What made it fall apart so quickly? John bringing Yoko to recording sessions and George being tired of being the group's distant third songwriter can only account for so much.

I have a theory about this that I've been going over in my head for a while now. I think that the overall chaos of "beatlesmania" made it that they never really had a chance to realise that they might not have really liked each other as people. The constant touring, movies, studio sessions, interviews, press mumbo jumbo, etc, caused their attention to always be on issues regarding the group as a whole. But when they quit touring and actually had some spare time to be around each other, they quickly got on each oters nerves.

[JohnMill]

Speaking of Anthology, the documentary never really makes clear what caused The Beatles to seemingly become fed up with each other pretty much overnight. Sgt. Pepper was their biggest critical and commercial success yet, forged by a band with an unified artistic vision and they are still clearly all on the same page musically for Magical Mystery Tour. Then the White Album happens, with many songs practically solo performances from their composers. 3 songwriters and their drummer all pulling in completely different directions. By the time of the Let It Be sessions it's clear that the group just had no inspiration or desire to work with each other period. What made it fall apart so quickly? John bringing Yoko to recording sessions and George being tired of being the group's distant third songwriter can only account for so much.

I have a theory about this that I've been going over in my head for a while now. I think that the overall chaos of "beatlesmania" made it that they never really had a chance to realise that they might not have really liked each other as people. The constant touring, movies, studio sessions, interviews, press mumbo jumbo, etc, caused their attention to always be on issues regarding the group as a whole. But when they quit touring and actually had some spare time to be around each other, they quickly got on each oters nerves.

Nah they actually spent quite a bit of time together even when they weren't working.  John and Ringo lived in relative close quarters to one another and were always popping over to one another's homes.  In addition Paul and John also were very close mates throughout the sixties taking several vacations together and also socializing outside of making music together.  The Beatles were a tight unit.  In fact even during sessions for "Get Back" you still get the feeling that the four of them got on personally but just didn't want to be in a band together.   Once the sessions moved to Apple they was a lot of good natured Beatle ribbing and joking around from four people who a week earlier you'd think were ready to come to blows.   I think John summed it up best a few hours before he died when he said "The Beatles are finished but John...Paul...George and Ringo go on"  

I honestly think the only Beatle who ever really held any type of severe personal grudge was George Harrison against Paul.  Even when he was forming "The Traveling Wilburys" in the late eighties he made sure to make mention of how much he loved being in a band again but without people who were going to "make it all about them" or were hard to work with which I can only take as not so subtle jabs at Paul McCartney.

[PhilCohen]

Nobody wanted to believe me, that, in these final days of the classic rock outtakes industry, that Pink Floyd archival material is on the way. It was announced today by EMI: expanded editions, and super-expanded box set editions of "The Dark Side of The Moon", "Wish You Were Here" & "The Wall"(whose box set edition will have 7 discs), plus more re-packaged/remastered editions of the other albums, and possible expanded editions of further albums in the future.
                   We're entering a last hurrah celebration of classic rock archival material with more expanded editions of albums by Paul McCartney, Queen & The Kinks coming this summer, and Pink Floyd starting this fall. The Beach Boys can either join this last hurrah outtakes festival with a "Smile" box...or not be a part of this, but there is no doubt that this is, commercially the ideal time.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Nobody wanted to believe me, that, in these final days of the classic rock outtakes industry, that Pink Floyd archival material is on the way.

Phil, please stop talking complete bollocks. Check back to the thread where you first mentioned it - no-one disbelieved you and I asked you for further details in a PM, not because I doubted what you were saying but because I wanted that archive project as much as you did. If you're going to play the injured innocent/spurned prophet, you need a better memory.

As for this:

The Beach Boys can either join this last hurrah outtakes festival with a "Smile" box...or not be a part of this, but there is no doubt that this is, commercially the ideal time.

Change the record, it's getting very tedious. The Smile project has been announced, and is currently being prepared for a summer (2011) release. It will happen, trust me. My bet still stands, if you want to take it. If not, kindly explain why you seem so sure it won't. Are you, by any chance, related to Steve Hoffman ?

[PhilCohen]

Nobody wanted to believe me, that, in these final days of the classic rock outtakes industry, that Pink Floyd archival material is on the way.

Phil, please stop talking complete bollocks. Check back to the thread where you first mentioned it - no-one disbelieved you and I asked you for further details in a PM, not because I doubted what you were saying but because I wanted that archive project as much as you did. If you're going to play the injured innocent/spurned prophet, you need a better memory.

As for this:

The Beach Boys can either join this last hurrah outtakes festival with a "Smile" box...or not be a part of this, but there is no doubt that this is, commercially the ideal time.

Change the record, it's getting very tedious. The Smile project has been announced, and is currently being prepared for a summer (2011) release. It will happen, trust me. My bet still stands, if you want to take it. If not, kindly explain why you seem so sure it won't. Are you, by any chance, related to Steve Hoffman ?

Hoffman is an egomaniac and certainly no relation. I've never met him, and I was long ago banned from his forum. Capitol's "Smile" box announcement did say "Later This Year", but nowhere did it say "this summer". As for those who think that a release of the "Smile" box may be timed to occur before the Grammy nomination cutoff date, how do we know that The Beach Boys  or their compiler even WANT a Grammy?

[hypehat]

So you don't think it's coming out?

[PhilCohen]

So you don't think it's coming out?

History tells us, that due to the fractious, litigation-riddled history of The Beach Boys, that no release of anything is certain until it's in our hands. Certainly, I hope that a "Smile" box set will be released. We will see. But the lack of any further progress report gives many(including myself) reason to worry. As some have said, Al Jardine's unapproved announcement may have forced Capitol to make an official announcement when the box was in a very early stage of developement; nowhere near ready to send to the pressing plant. We don't even know if any mixes have been made, and, if so, if any have been played for any of the group members.

[SurfRiderHawaii]

Nobody wanted to believe me, that, in these final days of the classic rock outtakes industry, that Pink Floyd archival material is on the way.

Phil, please stop talking complete bollocks. Check back to the thread where you first mentioned it - no-one disbelieved you and I asked you for further details in a PM, not because I doubted what you were saying but because I wanted that archive project as much as you did. If you're going to play the injured innocent/spurned prophet, you need a better memory.

As for this:

The Beach Boys can either join this last hurrah outtakes festival with a "Smile" box...or not be a part of this, but there is no doubt that this is, commercially the ideal time.

Change the record, it's getting very tedious. The Smile project has been announced, and is currently being prepared for a summer (2011) release. It will happen, trust me. My bet still stands, if you want to take it. If not, kindly explain why you seem so sure it won't. Are you, by any chance, related to Steve Hoffman ?

Yeah, nobody po po'd it.

For info, here's the Pink Floyd website for the new releases

http://whypinkfloyd.com/index.php

[vintagemusic]

I'm no expert, but I can't see anything in terms of previously unreleased material, ever
topping this forthcoming SMiLE set. Very exciting.

There is still a ton of Pete Townshend "Scoop" material, and supposedly some Who
songs from the sixties and seventies, that have never been out.

What I would most like to see other than SMiLE, are the few remaining Beatles gems
like Carnival of Light and Now and then. I expect something similar to Revolution 9 with
Carnival, and I expect the finished Now and then to be comparable to Free As A Bird or
perhaps even better, because McCartney invested so much time after the threetles sessions
in embellishing it.

They say George Harrison has two dozen late period songs, from the Brainwashed period,
in varying stages of completion, in fact Olivia Harrison said that, and that she would ask
Jeff Lynne to finish them up. That was about two years ago.


I find songs we haven't heard at all to be somewhat more exciting, than alternate versions
of songs we already know. SMiLE being the exception of course, because the Smileysmile and
subsequent versions of SMiLE songs generally are consiered to be inferior. Whereas with the Beatles
Stones or Who or Kinks, the released version of a song was probably the best version 95%
of the time.

I asked Chuck Negron recently if there were any more "Redwood" tracks from the Time to get alone
sessions. He said there were not. He said they were intended but they never got to do their vocals.

The new Pink Floyd sets are news to me, I didin't realize they had that much in the can.

All the cool bands, Byrds, Beatles, Kinks. Beach Boys, I don't how much is left to come out.

[PhilCohen]

I'm no expert, but I can't see anything in terms of previously unreleased material, ever
topping this forthcoming SMiLE set. Very exciting.

There is still a ton of Pete Townshend "Scoop" material, and supposedly some Who
songs from the sixties and seventies, that have never been out.

What I would most like to see other than SMiLE, are the few remaining Beatles gems
like Carnival of Light and Now and then. I expect something similar to Revolution 9 with
Carnival, and I expect the finished Now and then to be comparable to Free As A Bird or
perhaps even better, because McCartney invested so much time after the threetles sessions
in embellishing it.

They say George Harrison has two dozen late period songs, from the Brainwashed period,
in varying stages of completion, in fact Olivia Harrison said that, and that she would ask
Jeff Lynne to finish them up. That was about two years ago.


I find songs we haven't heard at all to be somewhat more exciting, than alternate versions
of songs we already know. SMiLE being the exception of course, because the Smileysmile and
subsequent versions of SMiLE songs generally are consiered to be inferior. Whereas with the Beatles
Stones or Who or Kinks, the released version of a song was probably the best version 95%
of the time.

I asked Chuck Negron recently if there were any more "Redwood" tracks from the Time to get alone
sessions. He said there were not. He said they were intended but they never got to do their vocals.

The new Pink Floyd sets are news to me, I didin't realize they had that much in the can.

All the cool bands, Byrds, Beatles, Kinks. Beach Boys, I don't how much is left to come out.

The Byrds.....no remaining unreleased material, except more early 1970's concert tapes.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Capitol's "Smile" box announcement did say "Later This Year", but nowhere did it say "this summer". As for those who think that a release of the "Smile" box may be timed to occur before the Grammy nomination cutoff date, how do we know that The Beach Boys  or their compiler even WANT a Grammy?

from examiner.com, 2/3/11:

Are there plans for a new Beach Boys archival project?

Alan Jardine: Capitol Records plans to issue a Beach Boys version of Smile sometime this summer to begin the celebration of The Beach Boys’ anniversary.  Smile is the Holy Grail for Beach Boys’ fans, so it will be good.  

As for the 'not wanting a Grammy' idea... are you in some way mentally impaired ?  Take this thought on board: maybe there's a reason why some of us are saying it'll be released before the Grammy 2012 cutoffs other than "gee, wouldn't it be nice ?"  I'd send you a PM and expand a little (just a little) on that, but seeing as the last one I sent you became public property, you'll understand why I'm leery of so doing.

Certainly, I hope that a "Smile" box set will be released. We will see. But the lack of any further progress report gives many(including myself) reason to worry.

Worry away, but also consider maybe there's a another reason why the finer details haven't been announced yet.

As some have said, Al Jardine's unapproved announcement may have forced Capitol to make an official announcement when the box was in a very early stage of developement; nowhere near ready to send to the pressing plant. We don't even know if any mixes have been made, and, if so, if any have been played for any of the group members.

All Alan's verbal slip did was give the folk in the tower a weekend of palpitations, and cause him to look pretty damn silly when he clumsily recanted knowing full well there would be an official announcement in less than a month. After that they stopped doing the headless chicken dance, realised no real harm had been done to that project and just carried on with the gameplan. As Mark hinted, the project has been underway for some time and recently switched into high gear. Speaking for myself I'd rather he and Alan Boyd got on with doing what they do rather than keep us up to speed with every development. Which is exactly what they're doing, being eminently sensible fellows. 

[PhilCohen]

Al said "Sometime this summer", but Capitol has yet to say that officially.  The Grammy awards have never been taken seriously by Rock musicians or fans. Here's why: after awarding The Beatles a "best new artist" award in 1964, NARAS didn't award a Grammy to a self containing(singing/playing/writing) rock group again, until 1976, when they gave some awards to The Doobie Brothers. As a result, they glaringly ignored some of rock's greatest works. Some voting members(session musicians and tin-pan alley songwriters) felt that their livelihoods were being threatened by groups that  followed The Beatles' example and didn't need to use outside writers or backing musicians unless they chose to, while some have surmised that some voting members didn't want them long-haired hippie types being the industry's ambassadors to the public.
                              
Here's some examples of Grammy's questionable judgement: Elvis Presley & Bob Dylan received their only Grammys for their religious music, and, in one competition between "Emerson Lake & Palmer", Chase(a Jazz-Rock horn band) &  "Hamilton,Joe Frank & Reynolds", the award went to (you guessed it), Hamilton,Joe Frank and Reynolds.......presumably because they were a vocal group(I.E. they weren't a self-contained band and had to employ sessionmen).

NARAS felt most comfortable with a Fifth Dimension, Simon & Garfunkel, Mamas & The Papas type of group who gave lots of work to session people. Each group had only one instrument player or writer in-house, or in the Fifth Dimension's case no players or writers in house.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Al said "Sometime this summer", but Capitol has yet to say that officially.  The Grammy awards have never been taken seriously by Rock musicians or fans. Here's why: after awarding The Beatles a "best new artist" award in 1964, NARAS didn't award a Grammy to a self containing(singing/playing/writing) rock group again, until 1976, when they gave some awards to The Doobie Brothers. As a result, they glaringly ignored some of rock's greatest works. Some voting members(session musicians and tin-pan alley songwriters) felt that their livelihoods were being threatened by groups that  followed The Beatles' example and didn't need to use outside writers or backing musicians unless they chose to, while some have surmised that some voting members didn't want them long-haired hippie types being the industry's ambassadors to the public.
                              
Here's some examples of Grammy's questionable judgement: Elvis Presley & Bob Dylan received their only Grammys for their religious music, and, in one competition between "Emerson Lake & Palmer", Chase(a Jazz-Rock horn band) &  "Hamilton,Joe Frank & Reynolds", the award went to (you guessed it), Hamilton,Joe Frank and Reynolds.......presumably because they were a vocal group(I.E. they weren't a self-contained band and had to employ sessionmen).

NARAS felt most comfortable with a Fifth Dimension, Simon & Garfunkel, Mamas & The Papas type of group who gave lots of work to session people. Each group had only one instrument player or writer in-house, or in the Fifth Dimension's case no players or writers in house.

None of that applies to the category The Smile Sessions qualifies for: Best Historical Album. According to a voting member of the NARAS I've been talking to, that's a very prestigious category.  Hopefully there's no New Vaudeville Band 1966 Sessions box out before 10/1/11.

Anyhoo... you carry on playing a combination of Doubting Thomas and Victor Meldrew, and I'll carry on waiting for a release I never really thought I would see.  

PS: if this be so - "NARAS felt most comfortable with a Fifth Dimension, Simon & Garfunkel, Mamas & The Papas type of group who gave lots of work to session people" - care to explain why "Good Vibrations" & Pet Sounds didn't win multiple Grammys ?

[vintagemusic]

Hey it's true the history of who won grammy's and who didin't is a total embarrasement.
But that does not mean musicians, artists, bands and producers don't care. One has
nothing to do with the other. Believe me people would like to win.

What in the world could that have to do with the release of SMiLE anyway ? the surviving
Beach Boys and the record company would certainly like the prestige,and the publicity
of winning a grammy, that would help sell more copies, get more press and accolades.
I'm sure they would release in time for the grammy cut off date if possible.

The Grammy's are really bad at awarding a seminal album like Sgt Pepper or Pet Sounds
 at the time of release, but they are very good at offering awards forty years later.
Wasn't Paul McCartney just doing Helter Skelter last year at 67 years of age?  He was
totally snubbed in his prime, but now they bend over backwards to get him involved. I
would imagine the same thing will happen With SMiLE, the grammy people will say they
always knew SMiLE was one of the great works of all time

[PhilCohen]

Al said "Sometime this summer", but Capitol has yet to say that officially.  The Grammy awards have never been taken seriously by Rock musicians or fans. Here's why: after awarding The Beatles a "best new artist" award in 1964, NARAS didn't award a Grammy to a self containing(singing/playing/writing) rock group again, until 1976, when they gave some awards to The Doobie Brothers. As a result, they glaringly ignored some of rock's greatest works. Some voting members(session musicians and tin-pan alley songwriters) felt that their livelihoods were being threatened by groups that  followed The Beatles' example and didn't need to use outside writers or backing musicians unless they chose to, while some have surmised that some voting members didn't want them long-haired hippie types being the industry's ambassadors to the public.
                              
Here's some examples of Grammy's questionable judgement: Elvis Presley & Bob Dylan received their only Grammys for their religious music, and, in one competition between "Emerson Lake & Palmer", Chase(a Jazz-Rock horn band) &  "Hamilton,Joe Frank & Reynolds", the award went to (you guessed it), Hamilton,Joe Frank and Reynolds.......presumably because they were a vocal group(I.E. they weren't a self-contained band and had to employ sessionmen).

NARAS felt most comfortable with a Fifth Dimension, Simon & Garfunkel, Mamas & The Papas type of group who gave lots of work to session people. Each group had only one instrument player or writer in-house, or in the Fifth Dimension's case no players or writers in house.

None of that applies to the category The Smile Sessions qualifies for: Best Historical Album. According to a voting member of the NARAS I've been talking to, that's a very prestigious category.  Hopefully there's no New Vaudeville Band 1966 Sessions box out before 10/1/11.

Anyhoo... you carry on playing a combination of Doubting Thomas and Victor Meldrew, and I'll carry on waiting for a release I never really thought I would see.  

PS: if this be so - "NARAS felt most comfortable with a Fifth Dimension, Simon & Garfunkel, Mamas & The Papas type of group who gave lots of work to session people" - care to explain why "Good Vibrations" & Pet Sounds didn't win multiple Grammys ?

Because, The Beach Boys(or Brian specifically) were Choosing to use sessionmen. With much longer, more frustrating & difficult sessions, Brian could have made the records with The Beach Boys playing. Like many producers in that era, who opted to use sessionmen instead of group members on backing tracks, it was because the sessionmen could cut the tracks more quickly, and being trained musicians, they could take instructions from a producer more easily. That was how Mark Lindsay explained the use of sessionmen on Paul Revere & The Raiders records starting in late 1966, through 1967 & 1968. The Beach Boys were, on stage(in the mid-1960's) a self-contained band, of the type which some NARAS members despised.

[hypehat]

Wait, so The Beach Boys' lack of grammy success is down to their flaunting the session musician culture of ye olde days, and their lack of grammy success is also down to the fact they used huge armies of them on their most successful productions? Explain how that makes sense, please.

[PhilCohen]

Wait, so The Beach Boys' lack of grammy success is down to their flaunting the session musician culture of ye olde days, and their lack of grammy success is also down to the fact they used huge armies of them on their most successful productions? Explain how that makes sense, please.

Back then(in the 1960's) The Beach Boys almost never publicly spoke about the use of session musicians on their records(remember The Monkees scandal, when it was revealed that they hadn't played the instruments on their first 2 albums?). The only known time in the 1960's when any of them publicly mentioned session musicians, was when Dennis was asked to name his favorite drummer, and he mentioned Hal Blaine, describing him as "a percussionist who sometimes plays on our records", not mentioning that he often drummed instead of Dennis. The Beach Boys' public appearance(on stage) as a self-contained band was sufficient to be affacted by NARAS' 1965-1975 anti-rock group blacklist.

[PhilCohen]

Wait, so The Beach Boys' lack of grammy success is down to their flaunting the session musician culture of ye olde days, and their lack of grammy success is also down to the fact they used huge armies of them on their most successful productions? Explain how that makes sense, please.

Back then(in the 1960's) The Beach Boys almost never publicly spoke about the use of session musicians on their records(remember The Monkees scandal, when it was revealed that they hadn't played the instruments on their first 2 albums?). The only known time in the 1960's when any of them publicly mentioned session musicians, was when Dennis was asked to name his favorite drummer, and he mentioned Hal Blaine, describing him as "a percussionist who sometimes plays on our records", not mentioning that he often drummed instead of Dennis. The Beach Boys' public appearance(on stage) as a self-contained band was sufficient to be affacted by NARAS' 1965-1975 anti-rock group blacklist.

I should note, that in the eyes of NARAS(and the attitudes they held in the late 1960's & early 1970's), there was a difference between a group that was basically(at least on stage) self-contained, and occasionally used sessionmen in the studio, and a strictly non-writing, non-playing vocal group which had to employ sessionmen because few or any of the group members could play an instrument. NARAS members obviously felt more comfortable with vocals-only, non-playing, non-writing entities such as "The Fifth Dimension", who didn't threaten the establishment's obsolete pre-Beatles view that singers sang, writers wrote and players played. The idea was that performers who could do all three of these things would put some people out of work. Remember, when Carole King reluctantly became a recording artist and performer, it was because more artists & groups were writing their own songs, reducing the need for traditional, office-based songwriters such as King. Remember, The Monkees were Don Kirshner's last gasp attempt to continue the music establishment's system of placing office-based  non-performing songwriters' songs with singers, but, in the end, The Monkees(as a matter of pride) also wanted to follow The Beatles example and write songs.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Al said "Sometime this summer", but Capitol has yet to say that officially.  The Grammy awards have never been taken seriously by Rock musicians or fans. Here's why: after awarding The Beatles a "best new artist" award in 1964, NARAS didn't award a Grammy to a self containing(singing/playing/writing) rock group again, until 1976, when they gave some awards to The Doobie Brothers. As a result, they glaringly ignored some of rock's greatest works. Some voting members(session musicians and tin-pan alley songwriters) felt that their livelihoods were being threatened by groups that  followed The Beatles' example and didn't need to use outside writers or backing musicians unless they chose to, while some have surmised that some voting members didn't want them long-haired hippie types being the industry's ambassadors to the public.
                              
Here's some examples of Grammy's questionable judgement: Elvis Presley & Bob Dylan received their only Grammys for their religious music, and, in one competition between "Emerson Lake & Palmer", Chase(a Jazz-Rock horn band) &  "Hamilton,Joe Frank & Reynolds", the award went to (you guessed it), Hamilton,Joe Frank and Reynolds.......presumably because they were a vocal group(I.E. they weren't a self-contained band and had to employ sessionmen).

NARAS felt most comfortable with a Fifth Dimension, Simon & Garfunkel, Mamas & The Papas type of group who gave lots of work to session people. Each group had only one instrument player or writer in-house, or in the Fifth Dimension's case no players or writers in house.

None of that applies to the category The Smile Sessions qualifies for: Best Historical Album. According to a voting member of the NARAS I've been talking to, that's a very prestigious category.  Hopefully there's no New Vaudeville Band 1966 Sessions box out before 10/1/11.

Anyhoo... you carry on playing a combination of Doubting Thomas and Victor Meldrew, and I'll carry on waiting for a release I never really thought I would see.  

PS: if this be so - "NARAS felt most comfortable with a Fifth Dimension, Simon & Garfunkel, Mamas & The Papas type of group who gave lots of work to session people" - care to explain why "Good Vibrations" & Pet Sounds didn't win multiple Grammys ?

Because, The Beach Boys(or Brian specifically) were Choosing to use sessionmen. With much longer, more frustrating & difficult sessions, Brian could have made the records with The Beach Boys playing. Like many producers in that era, who opted to use sessionmen instead of group members on backing tracks, it was because the sessionmen could cut the tracks more quickly, and being trained musicians, they could take instructions from a producer more easily. That was how Mark Lindsay explained the use of sessionmen on Paul Revere & The Raiders records starting in late 1966, through 1967 & 1968. The Beach Boys were, on stage(in the mid-1960's) a self-contained band, of the type which some NARAS members despised.

Phil, I don't need the spurious lecture about why Brian used session players - I've been up to speed on the why, when, who and where of that for a couple of decades: my point, which you've entirely avoided, is that you claim the NARAS folk favoured a "type of group who gave lots of work to session people", as Brian did on "GV " and Pet Sounds - ergo, if your claim has any validity, both those records should have won Grammys. So... why didn't they ? The voting members of the NARAS were well aware of what happened in the studio.