SMiLE Mystery

[Andrew G. Doe]

Can the experts tell me one thing:  are the original session tapes for “Vega-tables”/”Vegetables” on 4-track or 8-track masters? (I suspect the answer will be both)

Well, the known "Vega-tables" sessions were almost exclusively recorded at Columbia and Sound Recorders, both of which had 8-track capability.

[DonnyL]

I also just did some quick research and found the AES (audio engineering society), which has yearly conventions, released a paper involving quadrophonic records for their 1973 convention:

https://secure.aes.org/forum/pubs/conventions/?elib=1730

They had a convention in Los Angeles in May 1973.  Maybe completely unrelated, but food for thought.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Steve Desper did a presentation on quad, using some tapes most of us here know quite well, at least a year, maybe two, before that. That was the purpose of the so-called  "Quad Symphony".

[SurfRiderHawaii]

I really don't understand what the hubub is all about.

My father had a 1/4" machine and he'd buy these hi-fidelity classical records and record them to 1/4".  He had his own little library.
By dubbing the vinyl to tape,  he preserved the albums.  1/4" sound a hell of a lot better than cassette tapes.

This guy is probably a Beach Boys audiophile who dubbed his albums to 1/4", made his own 'mix' tapes, and maybe even converted collected boots (or friends boots) to 1/4".
This foto just looks like some hardcore hobbyist/audiophile's basement tape collection.

There is no indication any of these are lost 'Smile' masters or anything else.

was this prior to 1974 and did your father have a machine capable of playing 10.5" or 14" reels and did he also have a 1/2" 4-track machine?

I thought these were 1/4" tapes.  If Paul Bramsem was a recording engineer (as Mark L seems to believe), he would certainly have access to 1/2" machines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reel-to-reel_audio_tape_recording

***************
Speaking of lost tapes, this article is worth a read again:

http://www.newtimesslo.com/cover/3164/the-reel-deal/

[Custom Machine]

Another observation: I took a closer look and believe these could be 14” reels.  If you look at the size of the consumer 7” inch tapes to the left and compare, the Beach Boys-labeled tapes appear to be twice the length – but it is too hard to tell based on the angles.  This would make sense if they were dubbed at 15 ips, since a 10.5” reel only holds 30 minutes; a 14” reel holds 60 minutes.  If they are 10.5”reels, then some of the albums (namely the warner era) could not fit on the reels.  Typically, “SIDE ONE” and “SIDE TWO” masters would be on separate tapes.  They COULD be at 7.5 ips copies, but then they would only be a reference copy in that case.

DonnyL - 10.5 inch reels with 3600 feet of tape, like the eBay photo you posted, would hold 45 minutes at 15 ips.

Also, as Donny mentioned, it would be unusual for someone to have a bunch of empty Scotch reel to reel boxes laying around.  Empty boxes were available for purchase, but they were usually all white.  I very much doubt that empty boxes with the Scotch logo or half inch Scotch style were available for retail purchase. 

[DonnyL]

Surfrider - your comments support my belief that this is not a hobbyist/fan collection.   custommachine - good observation; i had not thought of the possibility of 1.0 mil tapes, i assumed they would be 1.5 mil.  that would make sense ... the only album that would not fit would be HOLLAND including fairy tale, but that could easily be on the misc. reel.  it probably makes more sense to be 1.0 mil on 10.5" then 1.5 mil on 14".

[Bicyclerider]

I really don't understand what the hubub is all about.

My father had a 1/4" machine and he'd buy these hi-fidelity classical records and record them to 1/4".  He had his own little library.
By dubbing the vinyl to tape,  he preserved the albums.  1/4" sound a hell of a lot better than cassette tapes.

This guy is probably a Beach Boys audiophile who dubbed his albums to 1/4", made his own 'mix' tapes, and maybe even converted collected boots (or friends boots) to 1/4".
This foto just looks like some hardcore hobbyist/audiophile's basement tape collection.

There is no indication any of these are lost 'Smile' masters or anything else.

This makes sense except there are tapes - like Dumb Angel - that wouldn't contain anything - what Smile boots were there in 1974?  How would he have a tape copy of "Sacremento Remote?"

Other than that one problem, this theory makes far more sense to me than Andrew's - getting a bunch of empty tape boxes, lining them up with BB titles as a shrine? 

[SurfRiderHawaii]

News Flash!

Brian's personal BB Demo tape vault discovered.  Boxes cleverly labeled in code as an extra precaution.

[SurfRiderHawaii]

Surfrider - your comments support my belief that this is not a hobbyist/fan collection.   custommachine - good observation; i had not thought of the possibility of 1.0 mil tapes, i assumed they would be 1.5 mil.  that would make sense ... the only album that would not fit would be HOLLAND including fairy tale, but that could easily be on the misc. reel.  it probably makes more sense to be 1.0 mil on 10.5" then 1.5 mil on 14".

My father's library looked something like this:

[DonnyL]

Surfrider - your comments support my belief that this is not a hobbyist/fan collection.   custommachine - good observation; i had not thought of the possibility of 1.0 mil tapes, i assumed they would be 1.5 mil.  that would make sense ... the only album that would not fit would be HOLLAND including fairy tale, but that could easily be on the misc. reel.  it probably makes more sense to be 1.0 mil on 10.5" then 1.5 mil on 14".

My father's library looked something like this:

that's cool stuff man, but those certainly look like a hifi enthusiast's collection on 7" reels.  the wikipedia entry you linked to (which details very basic information) also indicated that 7" reels are typical of a home/hobbyist setup, while 10.5" reels are usually found in studios.  i don't understand what you are trying to say; everything you are posting supports my theories.  10.5" capable consumer decks did exist (more common later into the '70s) and a hifi hobbyist could also acquire a real Ampex studio deck, etc ... while these scenarios are within the realm of possibility, they are less likely than other possibilities.

[DonnyL]

I really don't understand what the hubub is all about.

My father had a 1/4" machine and he'd buy these hi-fidelity classical records and record them to 1/4".  He had his own little library.
By dubbing the vinyl to tape,  he preserved the albums.  1/4" sound a hell of a lot better than cassette tapes.

This guy is probably a Beach Boys audiophile who dubbed his albums to 1/4", made his own 'mix' tapes, and maybe even converted collected boots (or friends boots) to 1/4".
This foto just looks like some hardcore hobbyist/audiophile's basement tape collection.

There is no indication any of these are lost 'Smile' masters or anything else.

This makes sense except there are tapes - like Dumb Angel - that wouldn't contain anything - what Smile boots were there in 1974?  How would he have a tape copy of "Sacremento Remote?"

Other than that one problem, this theory makes far more sense to me than Andrew's - getting a bunch of empty tape boxes, lining them up with BB titles as a shrine? 

there are many other reasons why the fan/audio enthusiast theory doesn't add up.

[SurfRiderHawaii]

Surfrider - your comments support my belief that this is not a hobbyist/fan collection.   custommachine - good observation; i had not thought of the possibility of 1.0 mil tapes, i assumed they would be 1.5 mil.  that would make sense ... the only album that would not fit would be HOLLAND including fairy tale, but that could easily be on the misc. reel.  it probably makes more sense to be 1.0 mil on 10.5" then 1.5 mil on 14".

My father's library looked something like this:

that's cool stuff man, but those certainly look like a hifi enthusiast's collection on 7" reels.  the wikipedia entry you linked to (which details very basic information) also indicated that 7" reels are typical of a home/hobbyist setup, while 10.5" reels are usually found in studios.  i don't understand what you are trying to say; everything you are posting supports my theories.  10.5" capable consumer decks did exist (more common later into the '70s) and a hifi hobbyist could also acquire a real Ampex studio deck, etc ... while these scenarios are within the realm of possibility, they are less likely than other possibilities.

Width of the tape is not to be confused with the length or tape speed.
These are 1/4" (width) tapes  of various length and speed.

[DonnyL]

Surfrider - your comments support my belief that this is not a hobbyist/fan collection.   custommachine - good observation; i had not thought of the possibility of 1.0 mil tapes, i assumed they would be 1.5 mil.  that would make sense ... the only album that would not fit would be HOLLAND including fairy tale, but that could easily be on the misc. reel.  it probably makes more sense to be 1.0 mil on 10.5" then 1.5 mil on 14".

My father's library looked something like this:

that's cool stuff man, but those certainly look like a hifi enthusiast's collection on 7" reels.  the wikipedia entry you linked to (which details very basic information) also indicated that 7" reels are typical of a home/hobbyist setup, while 10.5" reels are usually found in studios.  i don't understand what you are trying to say; everything you are posting supports my theories.  10.5" capable consumer decks did exist (more common later into the '70s) and a hifi hobbyist could also acquire a real Ampex studio deck, etc ... while these scenarios are within the realm of possibility, they are less likely than other possibilities.

Width of the tape is not to be confused with the length or tape speed.
These are 1/4" (width) tapes  of various length and speed.

my friend, those tapes appear to be 7" reels (the approx. size of a vinyl 45), while studio tapes are 10.5" around (closer to the size of an LP).  Yes, they are 1/4"; all 7" tapes are.  the speed is determined by the recorder, not the tape.  the length of all of your dad's tapes are either 1200 ft, 1800 ft or, rarely, 2400 ft.  take a look and report back to me that i am correct.

[SurfRiderHawaii]

7" reels.  Record speed is not determined by the tape but by the recorder. 

Recording Tape. 1/4 in. 1800 feet Hi-Output, Wide Dynamic Range, Low Noise. E35-7
Maxell.

[doc smiley]

just a thought....

how about a photo from a possible cover photo shoot for a Stack of Tracks 2 ?
Thinking 1975 around the time of "endless summer" there was a whack of dubious BB releases (High Water anyone?)
so maybe this picture was something thrown together for some sort of compilation..

[bgas]

 I still think the picture shows Coach's tape "vault"; but since everyone wants a different explanation, perhaps the tape BOXES shown were assembled by Darian's Father, to give him some background before he started getting into Smile stuff at the studio where he worked.

[Jonas]

lol bgas what the fack

[bgas]

Ya know, thinking more about it and dredging up old memories, I can't \swear about the tapes, but the storage shelves look exactly like the one Kevin and Pam Worrilow used to have in their basement, where they stored their BEach Boys collection. 

[Mikie]

Wow, you're right, Bgas!!  It looks exactly like the shelves in the Worrilow's basement! They had a helluva collection.  I wonder if......

[XY]

When was it that Dennis told someone "I Found The SMiLE Tapes!?

That was in 1978 when he cleaned out the Brother Studios for sale and doesn't fit in the time frame here.
Although he allegedly compiled SMiLE material for people like Robert Morgan or just copied existing SMiLE comp reels, the famous sentence was "I found the Fire tapes!"
Dennis went through the tapes, listened to unlabeled tapes (70's stuff). I think it's interesting that he found SMiLE material in the Brother vaults and allegedly a couple of his copies left the studio. From what I read, those were the first real SMiLE boots in wider fan circles, but I'm not saying that's really true.

[Jay]

There is no indication any of these are lost 'Smile' masters or anything else.

Hell, for all we know, "Dumb Angel" might be the name of a local mid '70's St. Paul bar band. 

[Andrew G. Doe]

Also, as Donny mentioned, it would be unusual for someone to have a bunch of empty Scotch reel to reel boxes laying around.  Empty boxes were available for purchase, but they were usually all white.  I very much doubt that empty boxes with the Scotch logo or half inch Scotch style were available for retail purchase. 

As has been pointed out, and conceded, of all the alleged BB boxes under consideration, only one unquestionably has a Scotch logo. The others are all white. Just sayin'...

[Andrew G. Doe]

When was it that Dennis told someone "I Found The SMiLE Tapes!?

That was in 1978 when he cleaned out the Brother Studios for sale and doesn't fit in the time frame here.
Although he allegedly compiled SMiLE material for people like Robert Morgan or just copied existing SMiLE comp reels, the famous sentence was "I found the Fire tapes!"
Dennis went through the tapes, listened to unlabeled tapes (70's stuff). I think it's interesting that he found SMiLE material in the Brother vaults and allegedly a couple of his copies left the studio. From what I read, those were the first real SMiLE boots in wider fan circles, but I'm not saying that's really true.

The first admitted Smile tape to leak was the one given to Byron Preiss in late 1977/early 1978 while he was writing the authorised BB biography.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Ya know, thinking more about it and dredging up old memories, I can't \swear about the tapes, but the storage shelves look exactly like the one Kevin and Pam Worrilow used to have in their basement, where they stored their BEach Boys collection. 

The Worrilows - damn, there's a name I've not heard for something like 25 years, maybe more.

[Pretty Funky]

Have not heard the name myself. Who were they?