The Smiley Smile Message Board

O.K., it's not a new mystery.  In fact, I discovered a couple of previous threads, (which I'll link at the end), which have already discussed this "mystery photo".  First off, the photo:

This whole "mystery" began when my wife posted this shot on our old roach-clips.com website.  (She had uncovered it while cataloging miscellaneous stuff in my archive).  I told her to remove it as soon as I saw it, as I had no idea of its origin.
However, the damage was done, and it had already become 'viral'.  It also began circulating as my photograph, but it's a Polaroid, a format that I never had used.  Now that the original SMiLE is finally seeing the light of day, apparently everyone involved has got search parties out looking for the whereabouts of these tapes!
I didn't even recall those name plaques until Alan Boyd brought them to my attention, and nobody can figure out who in the heck these people are!  Does anyone recall ever hearing/knowing either Robert Rolle or Paul Bramsem?  None of these tapes exist in the vaults, and any help would sure be appreciated!

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php?action=printpage;topic=5490.0

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php?topic=5490.0;wap2

could these be the work of a fan of the band who does reel tapes?

Or is the font and design of these tape boxes match somewhat what's in the band's collection?

 ???

Ah, the first response, and you were too quick to the draw!  I avoided even mentioning this in my post; however, as soon as I pulled the original Polaroid for Alan, that was my feeling, too.  Especially when I realized that these were all 1/4" tapes!  (I've even got a feeling that some - shall we say, 'obsessive' fan had maybe shown this to Dennis while we were on the road, and he handed it to me).
Now I hear that Steve Desper & Bruce feel that it's a fans, too.  That's why I'm going public, asking if anyone has ever heard these names.  (And it's not a photoshop; it's a Polaroid, and it's been in my collection since way before photoshop even existed!)

A better question would be how they/he/it got the tapes in the first place. It's not like the Boys handed out session tapes willy nilly to everyone who asks, and the plaque makes me think that this Paul Bramsen had to have at least worked with the Boys on one thing or another. Maybe asking Brian/Mike/Al/Bruce themselves (and showing them the picture) would be the best option.

We need CSI to ENHANCE

Even if these were obsessive fans, what would they have put on a tape of "Dumb Angel"? Or Vegetables for that matter. And why would they have a post thanking The Beach Boys? It seems like this is almost a display piece or something. If this was just a private collection belonging to a couple of fans, why would they put up plaques honoring themselves? Why would they have needed a studio? What engineering needed to be done?
Also if these guys were engineers, they don't seem to have been credited on any recordings, i.e. they're unsearchable on google. Whatever Paul Bramsem's studio was, it doesn't seem noteworthy enough for anyone to even remember it.

Also if the tapes are the wrong type of tape what does that mean? They can't be actual masters? Could they be copies or something?

Was there ever a Beach Boys museum anywhere? Maybe these guys tried to make a replica of famous studio and put those tape boxes up for show or something.

You could try and use the white pages and call every Robert Rolle listed in California or something. It might take you a few hours but you could get lucky.

maybe "dumb angel" was a name he gave to his own boot, or a boot in general.  it says "brian" not beach boys on it.  but why else would he make a plaque that says "thanks beach boys, especially brian".  like they were gifts. hm.

Let's get back to basics.

Ed, do you recall the storage facility at Brother looking like that ?  Those shelves and huge bolts look too clumsy for their intended purpose: why not Dexion, or something neater from a hardware/furniture store, or something custom built ?

Why would Brother have the masters, or even safety masters, for the pre-Pet Sounds Capitol albums ?

Alternatively, why would Capitol have tapes for the post-Pet Sounds material ?

Why two boxes for some tapes ?

Why are there absolutely no signs of wear on any of the boxes ?

Why does it say Shut Down Vol II instead of ... Vol 2 ?

Why do none of the tape boxes have master/matrix/catalog numbers ?

This doesn't feel anything like right to me. I concur with Fishmonk, it looks like something a fan built for display.

And for that matter: 
if it's the Brother Studio and tapes, why would they have two( probably more) regular issue 4 Track ( 7 inch boxes) tapes on the adjacent shelf? ( left top)

The mystery deepens!

Ed, has Alan checked with Mark on this?  Looks like Mark was tracking this back in 2005

************
I googled Paul Bramsem and found this posting from gearslutz.com from "Mark Linett" from 2005

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/593569-paul-bramsem-70s-engineer.html

"Paul Bramsem- 70's engineer
Has anyone got any info on an engineer named Paul Bramsem who worked in LA around 1973? I can't find anything via Google....... Any info would be appreciated. Thanks....

Mark Linett"

That doesn't mean that it can't be fake. Anyone can put some tape boxes on a shelf, write whatever they want on the labels and make a picture.

I do that all of the time. I have SMiLE '67, SMiLE '71, SMiLE '89, and SMiLE '97.

Since the boxes are quite uniform in appearance and lettering, obviously these are not the original boxes the tapes were stored in at the time of the recordings.  It looks like someone did a "cataloguing" and inventory of the tapes and made new tape boxes for all the tapes.

It doesn't mean there were tapes inside all the boxes.

If tapes were inside all the boxes, the dumb angel box could have held one of the 8 track assembly copies Carl and Desper put together in 1971-72 - maybe the title of the box was an inside joke, not indicating some pre-Smile title change tape.

Has Desper ever commented on this picture?

what is "summer concert"?

It is a show with musical contents, delivered between June 21 and September 21.

Unless you're in Florida, date range is from Jan 4 to Dec 21.

 :lol of course!

Obviously this relates back to the "Summer Love Songs" project - will the picture from this article assist with the Polaroid?

http://www.newtimesslo.com/cover/3164/the-reel-deal/

With regards to the Polaroid - who could actually be bothered to write on all the tape boxes AND make metal plaques for a photo opportunity? It just seems to much effort for the purpose of saying "this is a picture of the Capitol / Brother tape library / vault etc"

Could these be safety tapes rather than the actual masters? Might explain the newer boxes, location etc..

Firstly, that's not the Capitol Tower storage facility, trust me. Back in 1985, when I was in the Tower vault, the boxes were shelved in catalog number order.

Secondly, there's no indexing codes at all save for what's written on the box edge, and while even a vaguely clued music fan in general would make sense of the album titles, "Summer Concert" or "Brian" isn't going to make it.

I say it's spinach, and I say the hell with it.  :)

It likely won't help, but the tapes on the left of the third shelf down, below the oh-so-clearly labelled "BBs" tapes, appear to bear the same logo as one of the boxes on the Stack of Tracks sleeve (one near the bottom of the pile).  So at least types of tape in the pic (though not necessarily relevant) match those possibly being used by the BBs on at least one occasion.

Tenuous!

Just sayin'.

For anyone who's done any searching for these names, I'm probably stating the obvious here when I say that "Bramsen" seems to be much more common than "Bramsem." As such, the latter could be a misspelling.

Extremely tenuous, I'd say. There were/are only so many manufacturers of recordable tape. Back in the early 80s, the audio department at the university I attended featured plenty of Scotch and Ampex brand tape in the same boxes as seen in photos of Beach Boys masters. None of the tapes had any Beach Boys sessions on them, by the way, except for the one I used to compile my first attempt at SMiLE  ;)

Not to disagree with you Ed, but, having done recording myself, those tape boxes are larger than 1/4" boxes. They're too thick.
Also if you look at the boxes on the lower shelf, there are fewer than on the top shelf that take the same amount of space.
This tells me the the thicker the box the more recorded tracks on the tape. This makes sense, but albums like Sunflower and Holland should be 16 track tapes on 2" wide reels, and they certainly aren't thick enough, so this is puzzling.
The small boxes on the other side of the beam to the left are definitely 7" 1/4 tape reels.

What is the "Remote/St. Paul" box?

ah..in concert came out a little before then...  :)

(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n295/guitarfool2002/t1.jpg)

Just for size comparison, these are 2 standard Sony 1/4" reels in their boxes next to a CD. The boxes in the RoachClips photo look bigger, but as mentioned not big enough for 2" master reels. And why would a fan have anything larger than the standard tape format, which was the 1/4"? Or why would they use (waste) larger professional grade multitrack tape for dubs of Beach Boys albums? Mysterious...

Yes, the album was released in '73.  Alan had just mentioned that they played there in July '74.  My mistake.

Remote = live: in the famous shot of a shelf of Smile tapes from the 1993 box booklet, you can clearly see that legendary outtake "Sacramento Remote".  ::)

I think the photo is genuine... but I seriously doubt there's anything in those boxes... or if there is, not a note of it was recorded by anyone called Wilson, Wilson, Wilson, Love, Marks, Jardine, Johnston, Fataar or Chaplin.  ;D

Yeah, I done knowed that. I know what remote means, but I'd never heard of a St. Paul, MN live recording.
And if this is a fan collection pictured, why hasn't that concert been passed about?

Maybe because it doesn't exist ?  :)

OK, known gigs in St. Paul:

8/2/63
5/14/68 (cancelled)
7/9/68 (2 shows)
7/22/74
11/3/75
7/2/78

So, if it is kosher, it'd have to be from 1963 (highly unlikely) or 1968.  Given what Ed's told us of what others feel, and the evidence of the photo I'd say that, for God only knows what reason, some fan has made a full-scale model of what they think the Brother tape racks looked like.

No major revelations here (sorry!), but here are a couple of things I noticed:

• As Bicyclerider said earlier, the boxes are a little too uniform. All of the lines below "The Beach Boys" pretty much line up all the way across the top row of tapes. Also, the album names are pretty well centered in the space below the aforementioned lines. Someone was fairly careful and meticulous (OCD?) about the labeling of the boxes, certainly not a sign of the Beach Boys handiwork. As a matter of fact, I'm not sure the words "careful" or "meticulous" have EVER been used to describe the Boys' handling of their recorded works. Given the uniformity of the boxes, I don't think it would be much of a stretch to say these were all made about the same time.

• I'm having a hard time reading some of the boxes, but it looks like anything that's not an actual Beach Boys album is in a white box (except for the yellow 'Vegetables' box), while the full albums are all in yellow boxes. That said, if there were actual tapes in these, then it's probably safe to say the white "Brian - Dumb Angel" box doesn't contain a completed album (though we already know that, since one never existed), but rather a compilation of recordings or demos (like the white box next to it that says "Misc. Beach Boy Material").

• I almost completely buy into the whole "this is a fan display with nothing actually in the boxes"... except for the whole St. Paul thing. That's really bugging me. I understand why a fan might make a "Dumb Angel" box for their display (heck, I  made up a Smile jewel case for my CD collection), but why would someone make a phony tape box for a show that was never released in any way? (BTW, anyone know if that '74 show would have been recorded?) It just seems too isolated, and too random an item for someone to make up. Maybe if there were lots of other remote recordings in this collection, but it seems that everything else corresponds to a known live album. I would also consider the possibility that the St. Paul box were a fan recording, but the "Remote" term leads me to believe it was done with a professional remote recording facility. Is it possible this Rolle or Bramsem guy lived in Minnesota and/or was involved with the show in question?

• Again, I can't make out all the boxes, but it looks like there's nothing from the Boys' catalog after '73 (please correct me if I'm wrong). I don't see 15 Big Ones or Endless Summer, so I guess the latest thing in this collection would have been the '74 St. Paul box (though, according to AGD's site the St. Paul show took place about a month after Endless Summer was released). So can we infer that this photo was taken between July of '74 and July of '76 when Big Ones was released? Not sure... maybe this guy just wasn't a fan of anything post- In Concert.

• Anyone make anything of the fact that the albums are in reversed order? Maybe this is just personal preference, but when displaying something chronologically, I always go left (earliest) to right (latest). Hmmm... maybe it's a British thing   :p

So what does all this mean? Who knows... but I think the "St. Paul" box alone deserves a little more investigation before we can close the case on this one just yet...

 :-D Speculation runs amok! Maybe this guy was at a St. Paul show, bootlegged it from the audience, and transferred it to a reel. Again though the size of the reel boxes bothers me, as you normally wouldn't use anything above a consumer-grade tape (1/4") to catalog dubs of albums. And if the guy spent hours trying to replicate his vision of the Brother vaults with empty fantasy boxes as a fun project, I'd suggest he'd be better off getting into model trains.

OK... so if these are pukka tapes... the labelling is beyond pointless. "St. Paul remote" - when ?  "Summer concert" - when, where ?  "Concert LA/NYC" - when ?

Everything about this shouts "faked".

What's bugging me is that big sticker, clear as day, that says 'roachclips' on it. Has anyone found out what it could mean???

Hmm... I couldn't make out the "LA/NYC" label earlier, thanks for pointing that out. It does seem odd that there are several ambiguous, non-dated concerts in the collection. I would think someone so careful about labeling would have the dates and show venues listed on the tapes... were they legit, that is. But then again, if they're making up stuff anyway, why not just make up a date and throw it on there??

Anyway, I zoomed in on the photo and have a couple of other quick questions...

1) One of the boxes says "Add Some Music To Your Day". Would a fan in the early 70's have known this was the original title of the first Warner Brothers album?

2) Another box is labeled "London". I'm assuming (dangerous, I know) that this refers to the December '68 show released as "Live in London"... Would a U.S. fan in the early '70s be aware of this British release (since it wasn't given a stateside release until '76)?

Because he predicted the existence of the "internet" and knew some day his fake concerts could be easily debunked. This troll is playing it safe.

What bugs me is these guys seem pretty up on The Beach Boys, you think somebody would know them. If these guys built a replica shelf of BB masters and sought out Dennis to show him their handiwork you think they would have attended a fan convention or something along the way, or joined a mailing list, or talked to somebody somewhere along the way.

He's a smart little S.O.B., ain't he?

My team is working on it.

The thing that's puzzling me is, they got the labels the right shade of yellow... butt he actual markings all wrong: it's as if they'd seen the boxes on the Stack O'Tracks cover, but not clearly enough to get all the detail. I'm dating it to before the first edition of David Leaf's book, as if they#d seen the pics of the tape boxes in there, they'd know to have more than just the album/song title.


1 - But it wasn't the title of the first Reprise album, rather the single: the album was set to be simply Add Some Music.

2 - Good point, although I'm sure import copies made it over to the US pretty quickly.

Some things they seem to know well, other simple stuff they fall down on. Most confusing... but still a fake.

So we're all interested in this because of what might be in the Dumb Angel box. But what could have been? What would have needed to transpire for that box to contain material that is unavailable anywhere else?

Copies were made of all the SMiLE material by Carl right? Do all those copies still exist? Does that mean that all the material currently missing was stolen prior to 1971? Who had access to the tape vaults back then? Is there anyway to check to see if a Robert Rolle or Paul Bramsem was ever employed by Capital?

We only care about this picture because of the off chance that one of those tapes contains unheard material. But in order for that to be the case, it seems one of those guys would have to have stolen tapes from the vaults. And if neither Robert Rolle or Paul Bramsem ever worked in any capacity where they would have access to BB tapes, then we can probably rule out the possibility that there is unique material on those shelves.

I think the solution is simple: inter-dimensional beings are among us. They took a picture of the tape vaults of their dimension's Beach Boys, a group which kept their vaults well organized, realeased an album called "Add Some Music", had their leader Brian release a solo called "Dumb Angel", and put out a much loved live album culled from recordings made in St. Paul Minnesota (whose baseball team The Twins have won the World Series a record 43 times).
 

Robert Rolle and Paul Bramsem are also solely responsible for the Sea of Tunes boots.  :hat

Here's the pic in better quality:

(http://thebeachboys.ch/Galerie/albums/userpics/library.jpg)

I mean, what's next to Pet Sounds ? "Tracks" ?  Come ON !  ;D

Case closed. Shut. Down. Everything.

it was available as an import around late 72 early 73. i got a copy then. it had ads for it in the major music mags back then. i believe it was a dutch release. different cover than 70 issue.

also he spelled tough as tuff on the label?

This search should be taken to social media really.
I'd recommend putting up ads on the LA craigslist asking for information. Maybe you'll stumble upon some guy who had a friend of a friend who used to brag about having stolen tapes or something.
It seems like the best option.

Ahhh, I see. Thanks for clearing that up, this place is a wealth of knowledge.

I think "Tracks" is supposed to be "Stack o' Tracks".

What if "Robert Rolle" is meant to be a joke name playing on the words "Rock and Roll"?

The only thing is I can't come up with anything that sounds like "Paul Bramsem"!

Maybe Paul Bramsem is an anagram for the REAL killer  :o

http://wordsmith.org/anagram/anagram.cgi?anagram=Paul+Bramsem&t=1000&a=n

This is definitely a fascinating mystery.  The shelving support boards look like 4 x 4's and 2 x 4’s, which have actual dimensions of of 3.5 x 3.5 inches, and 1.5 x 3.5 inches.  Measuring those boards in the photo and extrapolating, the tape boxes in question are the size used for 10.5 x 0.5 inch reel to reel tape.  Consumer grade reel to reel tape was only 0.25 inches wide, on either a 7 inch or 10.5 inch reel, with 7 inch being far more common.

Half inch wide tape on a 10.5 inch reel, as we appear to have here, (assuming there are, in fact, reel of tape inside the boxes), could be recorded with up to 8 or 16 tracks.

As bgas pointed out earlier, the tapes on the far left appear to be commercial releases in 7 inch boxes.  On the far right we see a small bottle that may be tape head cleaner.  This definitely doesn’t look like an official archive vault, and it contains (or is made to look like it contains) stuff from both the Capitol and Brother/Reprise eras.  

I do find it interesting that while we see tape boxes labeled “Vegetables” and “Brian – Dumb Angel”, there is nothing labeled “Smile”.  Seems like a fan making a recreation would want to have at least one box labeled with that legendary title, but since Smile never saw release, perhaps they decided to go with the reels labeled “Vegetables”, “Brian”, and “Brain – Dumb Angel”.


EDIT - On closer inspection, I see that most of the tape boxes, especially on the top shelf, are thinner boxes which would have been used for quarter inch reels, while others, especially on the second shelf, are wider and would have been used for half inch reels.

^ :lol I love how that went nowhere, just like this thread.

There's just TOO many possibilities here.  
I didn't check them all, tho I think  " A Marble Sump" is probably the best explanation

I did a search on Facebook.  ;D I found SEVERAL people by the name of Robert Rolle.

There's a Paul Bramsen Sr. on Facebook who hails from St. Paul Minnesota. I'm putting the money on him. Who's gonna have the sack to Friend him?

I decided to take a chance.  ;D This is what I sent to Paul Bramsen Sr. from Minnesota:

Mr Bramsen,
                   I know that this is going to seem very strange to you, but bare with me for a moment. My question to you is, having you ever had any kind of music background?
                  Thank you for your time,
                      Jason

Gee I hope he doesn't think you're some kind of pervert that wants to get naked( bare) with him. 

Hey Ed
When/how did this polaroid come into your possession?
Thankee!

Just my personal opinions...

1. I don't think it's a fan faked picture.  The simple mistakes prevent that.  They wouldn't 'not' put a SMiLE album, and they wouldn't have written just "tracks" instead of "Stack of tracks" or whatever, it'd be more nerdy.  This is too sloppy. 

2. I think the St. Paul thing is the key, there's nobody alive that would track down a recording of specifically St. Paul if they didn't live there.  Sorry to Minnsota, but it's true.

Since it thanks Brian specifically, I'll bet he could figure it out if he could be bothered to think about it for more than 10 seconds.  Hell for all we know it could be some crazy ass story where he let some guy make a bunch of copies of the tapes to play at his skating rink or something. 

I need to clarify - the picture's not faked... but what's in the picture almost certainly - 99.99% in my mind - is.

I think that "Dumb Angel" might be a clue. From what I've read, this was a working title for a very short period. Did any studio sessions actually take place when it was still called "Dumb Angel"? Were any studio tape boxes ever labled as "Dumb Angel"?

Perhaps some of the live tapes are from the Beachago tours?
Did Guercio play St. Paul with the BB in 1974?

No, and no... but then, none of the individual tracks was ever labelled Smile either: that's why I'm leery - all the hallmarks of an inside joke.

As to why do it, well, back in the last century, a couple of European fans made a scale model of the Bellagio house and incorporated a Smile shop into the back: compared to the work that went into something like that, bolting a few shelves together and mocking up some edge strips on tape boxes would be simplicity itself.

Beachago tour was 1975.

While I think the parallel universe theory is the most likely one ::), I tend to agree that this might be a bootleggers' "vault" containing copied tapes.

Bootleggers who had access to not only the Capitol vault but also the Brother facility, not to mention the relevant equipment to play and copy the tapes.  Someone said to me that this might be the SOT vault, but several factors rule that out, notably the presence of post 20/20 material and the very fact that these are boxes for 'normal' tape reels (the SOT material was on something else entirely)

A few points regarding Ed's photo.

Sunflower and beyond tell me these are not the SOT tapes. Besides one reel at 15 inches per second is about 30 minutes long and the SOT boots are much longer in length. So much for that notion. If it was a shot of the SOT tapes, Sacramento is not present, yet, St. Paul is, which is not a SOT boot. Still at 7 1/2 IPS, each reel would still only be less than 60 minutes.

I'm also thinking the photo itself is not of 1970's vintage.
Polaroids of that era have a tendency to fade, they are also not terribly sharp and this Polaroid has all kinds of detail.
Just some food for thought.

I recall that the SOT stuff was on high quality video tape.

Hi, I've been following this forum for a while and I thought I'd bring my 2c

I messed about with the picture a little in a photo editing program.

To my eyes, the top plaque (is it a plaque ? the metal thing anyway) reads:

Sound System
Robert P. Rolle

I don't know if that's worth mentioning but I thought I'd bring it up

Anyone else  beginning to think Robert Rolle and Paul Bramsen are buried underneath that shelving? This is getting creepy, these obsessive fans - sheesh!

 :lol

In court, they'd call that "guilty knowledge".   ;)

BTW, for those saying maybe the Dumb Angel box contains the 1972 comp tapes... Steve Desper says this is a fake: that's the Steve Desper responsible for those comp tapes.  ;D

Presence of thermometer (fringing R) seems to suggest that it's either a temp-controlled storage facility or masquerading as one.

A temperature controlled vault for original camera A negative from the silent era I can understand... but recording tape ?  As I recall, the Tower storage facility was room temperature. Further, that looks to be a standard max/min garden thermometer: not what you'd call high-tech.

Keep lining 'em up, I'll keep shooting 'em down.  ;D

Hi! I'm new here (longtime lurker), but this just made me have to register and chime in.

I'm really surprised that nobody has caught a glaring fact.

Ok, on the upside - the tape boxes appear to have been "repaired" by yellow tape with titles written on them, thus the consistent labeling. Note the tops of the boxes on the left lower shelf where the tape overlaps. This would be consistent with product that was out in the 70's, so I don't find this unusual.

Also, as has been pointed out the thermometer - which makes me think of a controlled area similar to a wine cellar, and something that would exist in a serious amateur (small) storage area. Although the "pine" shelves are hardly archival. People really weren't aware of acid-free 40 years ago. Or what about humidity? A large vault would have no such need for these things.

And as has just been pointed out - the plaque that reads: Sound System By Robert P. Rolle

However: This has been poorly edited digitally.

Take a look at the photograph again: http://tinyurl.com/3z88u6p (http://tinyurl.com/3z88u6p) enhanced and noted here.

This has obviously been edited very primitively using a bad/ancient paint program, possibly more than once. Note the rectangular "clones" of black on the back of the lower shelf. The shelf itself has been edited in several places, as has the upright above the plaques. Additionally, the plaque has been purposely obscured - there is no reason that it would be so over exposed while the other plaques read just fine. This makes me think it was edited again as it is a slightly more sophisticated edit. And, for some reason the top row of boxes has been "split" and moved over a couple of pixels (probably during the shelf edit).

Now, the question is: why?
It also appears obvious to me that because of the perspective this is really just one photograph with somebody purposely trying to obscure details of the shelf, perhaps removing a plaque or two on the right and perhaps something on the face of the shelf.

Bottom line: If it's from a polaroid, it's a polaroid of a poorly digitally edited image. I'm guessing it was done in the late 80's all the way up to the early 90's. There have been polaroid printers out for some time.

I've been a graphic designer for 30 years, so I've worked in the pre-digital world as well - and owned a photo lab and digital service bureau to boot. A photographic manipulation would have been more sophisticated, and any 12 year old with a paint program today could do a better job.

My 2¢!

Just for the record, and maybe this is common knowledge already, I don't know...the methods and madness of storing tape reels, specifically from the late 60's and 70's, have changed since the early 90's or so. When the archivists started to pull master reels and multitrack reels from classic albums as late as the 70's and 80's for various projects, they found many were suffering from "sticky shed" syndrome, where the actual components of the tape would come off on the tape machine as it was played back, and in worse cases you'd actually see the reels of tape having turned to goo. That's when they'd bake the reels in an oven to get it all in shape so they could at least be played and not lost. Some of our 70's and 80's cassettes are suffering from this same thing on a smaller scale as they sit boxed up in attics and closets.

Wasn't this mentioned in the DCC "Lost And Found" liners, about the quality of the tape used in the 60's versus later ones? The industry changed the formula without realizing the tapes wouldn't hold up over time.

And my point was that this kind of news triggered a lot of re-thinking about how any audio tapes are stored and cared for, and that would have included climate control and fire-proofing to some degree as well. What wasn't given much thought in the 80's became much more important as some valuable tapes were lost because they may not have been stored properly at places like Capitol and Atlantic.

Again, I'll re-state my opinion that the photo in question is either a hoax or a guy who dubbed those albums and maybe those concerts onto reel tape. Back to the speculation...

My guess is that Ed's wife put the digital image of the poloroid on the Roach Clips website with the black "roachclips" watermark superimposed on the image.  Then someone took that image and used editing software to remove the "roachclips" mark from the image.

That makes a lot of sense, but looking at the picture Ed posted with "Roach Clips" on it, you can still see some of the digital manipulation WaxOn noted.

Ah, thanks; in the time it took me to log you, you answered for me.  Think Alan Boyd told me the site where the fellow removed Roachclips, and posted it as a more hi-res scan, was called Petsite?  (Not sure of that, but we do know that fellows name).  As to the editing around the plaque, that's more of a mystery.
Pretty sure this has been in my collection since the seventies, though, and, while Polaroid's can fade, have you not seen the condition of everything that's come from my archives?  Properly stored things don't have to fade...

Yeah, saving the whales didn't do the recording industry any favours (joke, btw).  But your comment about "what wasn't given much thought in the 80s" argues against the credibility of the 'vault', as there's nothing in there past 1973.

Further question: why dub copies of albums you could go out and buy in any 2nd hand store ?  I, er, know someone who had access to the BRI vault over a weekend one summer back in the early 80s, and did he copy the released album masters (which the band don't actually have, btw - they're held by the relevant label) ? Nope, he copied every unreleased track he could lay hands on.

As a yard sale and flea market fan who always looks for those old reels and cassette tapes of radio broadcasts and other rare stuff, I find waaaayyyy too many old cassette and dubs of albums which people made to take along and listen in the car or in the Walkman, or anywhere else they could make their music collection portable.

Same thing with reel to reel tapes - I look through every dusty and dirty box of reels I stumble on at these sales and most often they contain dubs of released albums, strangely enough usually classical and country albums, very meticulous sometimes in the labeling and all of that stuff. The cassette dubs I totally understand because of portability, but maybe these albums were dubbed from vinyl LP so the actual vinyl wouldn't have been scratched? The only tested format for dubbing like that up until the late 70's was the reel-to-reel. Just a guess!

So what's wrong with this explaination exactly?

Hmm.  Well looking at the 'roach clips' picture, the washed out plaque looks natural to me.  It's a different color, and if you look at the bolt above it, that's where the flash 'hit' the image and why it's so washed out.

The shelf front being boxed out is where they removed the logo.  I don't see anything else manipulated looking.  PLUS, we're looking at a digitized picture of a picture.  You're going to have artifacts.

Most notably Ed Roach himself said in the first post of the thread that he didn't use Polaroids and didn't take the photo!

Yup; it's 'his photo' in that he had it put online, but he didn't take it, just received it.  Geesh.  You'd think people would read.    ;D

The "quote" function on these boards is handy for situations like this. :)

Thank you father; I'll try to do better next time.  Kiss my ass. 

Someone else took the pic...fine. But can it be said for sure it isn't a pic of the Brother Studios tape vault as Bob indicated?

Oh come on, I was backing up what you said about reading the stuff with humor! Take it easy.

Nothing's for sure, but everybody who would know and has been in the Brother Records vault, has said it's a fake.  

The format of the tapes supposedly in those boxes is the question - if they're multitracks they wouldn't be that size, and if they're dubs the type of tape is the question as well.

I always take it easy, but there's so many smarmy assholes on elitist websites like this, normal people like me have to have our guns drawn.  

Draw them guns, cowboy. Only make sure you point them in the right direction before firing. In this case you were way off. Back to the fun.

(Ooops - this is a little late - there have been several posts while I wrote this - but here goes:)

What's wrong with this explanation to begin with is that I didn't take the photo, and apparently it's not Brother Studio, (as confirmed by Moffitt).  Guess I had caused some of the confusion, because when this originally happened, I assumed that it was the shot from David Leaf's book, (or an alternate), and that I had shot them.  Turns out I didn't take that shot for David, (every single photo of mine is credited at 'point of use' in David's book), and I wasn't aware that it was a Polaroid.  Please understand, I not only survived about 18 years as a frequent flyer of land, sea & air with Dennis, but also lived through the height of the mid-sixties in Greenwich Village.  The fact that I remember anything -albeit in the detail that I do remember many, many things, is somewhat astounding.  That I don't recall this one damn Polaroid, well, Lord knows how many compromising Polaroid's have been taken with me in them!

Just a couple more questions/observations...

If this is a photo of a fan's collection, and it likely is, why would the person have two copies of Sunflower, Surf's Up, Holland, and Pet Sounds?

Why does one copy of Pet Sounds have 'mono' printed on it, while the other (nor any other tape box) does not.

Bellagio is misspelled on one box.

To the right of the Dumb Angel box is a box that looks like it has Wouldn't It Be Nice printed on it.  Why a separate tape for that, Vegetables, and Add Some Music To Your Day?

My guess is that this person lives/lived in the Minneapolis/St. Paul area, had a small studio in his basemant or something, and put together this collection to impress clients.  There may have been tapes of those albums/songs in the boxes, but we don't know.  We do know that Brian gave away gold albums to Hal, and he did some very peculiar things in the '70s.  Could he have given this guy some old tapes that he had lying around as a trade for...well...you know.

The missing master cut from the master LP reel for use as a single?!?

Why would a fan make a "Bellagio/Holland" box? It's too random!

This used to not be an elitist website, until the Smile Sessions box was announced....

Small problem - Brian's never lived in Minnesota.

Equally small problem - why would Brian give away multitracks or masters to someone who probably couldn't play them ?

Small observation - David Sandler hails from Minnesota.

Pertinent observation (well I think so, anyway) - a lot of folk here are turning themselves inside out trying to explain away huge inconsistencies largely because they want to believe it's true, that somewhere there once was, and maybe still is, a reel of Dumb Angel tracks and a tape of solo Brian Wilson songs from before 1974. Stop wanting that so much... go back to basics, and listen to others. Studio engineer Steve Desper says it's a fake... resident Brother Studio engineer Steve Moffitt says it's not the Brother storage room... Ed says he doesn't recall the vault looking like that (although granted he's just admitted that recalling anything is a bonus  :)).  Strip away what you want it to be and concentrate on what is. I'm a researcher... I don't start off with "what if...", I look at what I've got and think "OK, how does this fit logically together in the light of what we know and the info we have from people who were there ?"... and the answer to that is - it doesn't.  There is next to no internal logic in this whole thing.

This is CSI: Smiley Smile.

Impressive

For this person, the best SMiLE joke was a small one. At one point, I think around 2001, Brian was featured in MOJO. I think Sylvie Simmons did the article. His home was portrayed with a photo. On a table was some CD box, it looked like a triple set IIRC. And it looked like something still waiting to be finalized. On it was scribbled with felt marker: 'The Smile Sessions'. Not much, or nothing at all was made of it in the text.

I dearly loved it, because it was so unremarkable - precisely for this reason quite a few people believed that it was for real.

Anyone here with the 2nd edition of David Leaf's book, turn to page 188: it's not exactly a good one, but that's a picture of genuine BB tape boxes, complete with index codes.

Yikes!

My bad.

When I was looking at this post last nigh the OP photo with "roach-clips" was reading as a broken link - so I downloaded a picture from a poster's link.

Most of the things I pointed out are NOT in the OP's photo, so yes - somebody just removed the type. The discrepancies I now see are probably just from the type being moved after the fact.

I'll go eat worms now.

Even if they are fake it is still somewhat fun and optimistic to think there might be a .1 chance of these being real. If you dont want to join in the investigation then fine, but why come into the thread and say so? Just stay out or lurk and you will get the same results.

:lol yeah right. I can show you responses from a few certain members in the last year that will come off as pompous.

Hey, we all ride on a high horse sometimes, but Jonas, that is what you are here for; to knock us down a peg and keep things moving along. ;)

And that's a huge question.
There are definitely multi-track tape boxes pictured here, and that tells me they contain more tracks than 2 tracks. Which eludes to- they are more than a 2 track mixdown master.

the tape boxes are ALL Scotch brand, the Scotch logo dates prior to the mid-'70s, when the switched the logo/box design.  these are most certainly some kind of safety copies of 2-track mixdowns, at 15 ips on 10.5" 1/4" tapes.  They were put together in a group; they are not ORIGINAL tapes, they are copies, but clearly studio copies. original tapes would look sloppy, not be uniform and be on different brands, etc.  These are not consumer tapes, most consumer units prior to the mid/late-70s did not use 10.5" reels.  this is studio stuff.  as to the consumer-grade tapes to the left, there are plenty of reasons why a studio would have some regular tapes lying around.  in fact, they often made 7", 7.5 ips copies of studio tapes to listen to outside of the studio on consumer reels.  reels of tape were/are not cheap, regular old people do not buy boxes of tape in bulk to create an elaborate hoax.  the hoax really could not feasibly be created later than the mid-'70s because if you bought a bunch of scotch tape, the logo and boxed would be different.  yes, tapes should be stored in a temperature-controlled environment, and important tapes usually are.

my theory based on all info available and my own knowledge of vintage tapes:  someone had access to the beach boys tape archives (Brother and Capitol, apparently), made safety copies of all of the released albums and some extra stuff too, and collected and organized them.  i would guess 1973 was the year, since "SUMMER CONCERT" was probably the "In Concert" album in progress.

You're assuming there's anything in the boxes.  ;D


To do that, this same person would have to have access to some kind of copying facility, unless they managed to do it in-house, so to speak.  Brother in 1973 wasn't open for commercial use, so it would have to be an inside job.

I can think of a million reasons why this wouldn't be relevant (it really doesn't explain a damn thing and doesn't create any kind of chain of custody), and so I am hesitant to post this, but didn't Brian record in Iowa in '73?  Iowa's next door to Minnesota....

And carries his mastertapes with him?  :-D

The 'genuine' vault photo looks much more claustrophobic than this, doesn't it? And the name plaque speaks volumes. Loving (if somewhat deranged) fakery, in my honest opinion.

If it were just familiar album titles I’d accept the deranged fan theory, but there are unique things here that only an insider would know to include.
 
We need to start thinking on a different level like the BRI does…white is black and black is white…

Maybe Mike Love is exactly what he says he is… a patsy.

I hate to add more fuel to the speculation fire, but since you brought up Iowa, I thought I'd throw this out there. I googled this Paul Bramsen Sr guy from St. Paul, and it appears he's 63, putting him in his mid twenties around '74. He's lived in Minnesota his whole life except for a stint at Drake University, located in (cue dramatic music)... Des Moines, Iowa. That said, it's probably just a coincidence since he likely would have graduated well before Brian was in the neighborhood circa '73, but it's still interesting.

I should also mention that it doesn't look like this guy has any professional experience in the music industry, or anything related, for that matter. Jay, have you heard anything back from Mr. Bramsen Sr. yet?

Is it possible in anyway that this could have been taken in the Caribou Ranch Studio ?, There are lots of reasons why it couldn't/shouldn't be (Tapes from earlier albums being a biggie) but to my knowledge, the band were using this studio around the time of the photo, could some dubs have been housed there or something for some reason ?

Then again, Caribou wasn't exactly some small obscure studio, I'm sure somebody would recognise the vault or the names there.

i don't think the items in the photo are real. in 72, 73 or 74 hardly anything beach boy related was booted or traded. and i will admit this, the person i was back in 72, 73 or 74 would have done  almost anything to get my hands on this material if it was valuable. and i'm sure there would be a long line of people with the same thought in front of me. no way would i label boxes and show photos of this stuff if it was for real and i wanted to keep it.

How about the hand writing? Any other instances of "arrow t's" in the Beach Boys library?

Ed -

Do you still have the original Polaroid?  It would be helpful to see a high res scan of the original photo, without the Roachclips logo.

The studio that Brian recorded at in Iowa was in Otho, outside Ft. Dodge, over 50 miles from Des Moines.

Small point here:  The tape boxes to the left are not simply 7.5 inch reels of tapes; rather, they are Pre=recorded Factory labeled tapes. The kind that would have a BBs album upon them to listen to.

I went to the Otho studio once--what a cool place! The owner, Kirk Kaufman, told me about having to coax Brian out of his bed at the Ft. Dodge Holiday Inn to come and record. "I think he was horny to be near his wife," he said.

I kinda got the impression the whole Otho thing may have sprung from connections made during MIU. Does that fit the timeline, AGD?

Side note: I sure don't consider this an elitist board--I find it very friendly and gentlemanly. If you want an elitist, fanboyish board, become a Beatle fan and look for something in the 900's! 8^)

No - Otho was either December 1972 or January 1973 (Brian, Sandler & Spring were among the first to use the studio), whereas the MIU sessions were November/December 1977 in Fairfield, clear across the state.

Wow. I wonder how that connection got made then. Kirk did tell me that somebody from the Beach Boys camp--never heard who--did the string arrangement on Kirk's group's single "Sister Jane", which I just love the hell out of. (The group: Westminist'r--at one point the namesake of said studio. Now it's called Junior's Motel.)

If nothing else, this mystery is giving everyone something to talk about while we wait for more news on the "Smile Sessions release"  ;)

Probably the picture's intention all along...:brow

I do not see how his is a hoax -- it was not created by a fan; the tapes on the top shelf are safety copies, I assume authorized by the Beach Boys and part of their tape library at some point in time, namely circa 1973.  As to why this collection included Capitol-era tapes: perhaps Capitol rented them to the group for the purpose of copying them for their archives (this is perfectly feasible – the group could not legally release them).  Come to think of it, 1972-73 was the period in time in which Brother/Warner would have acquired 2-track masters for SMILEY SMILE, WILD HONEY, FRIENDS and 20/20 (and SMILE material).  Maybe they let them copy the whole deal.  Keep in mind, the engineers that worked on it are not lawyers.  They had access to the Capitol’s archives.   Maybe the group wanted the entire output in their possession.

The tapes on the bottom shelf appear to be 1/2" reels (but they could be 1") ... the only thing i can think of is perhaps they were quadraphonic mixes?  There is no other explanation as to why albums like SUNFLOWER would be on 1/2" (4-track) reels.  Quad mixes would make sense, as it was a trend during this period, and Warner-era LPs would be the only albums the group would have the multi-track masters available for.
 
Incidentally, The 3M / Scotch tape company was based out of St. Paul, MN as well.

HA!  I get a kick out of posters like this. They can't see it as a hoax, so they invent  their own possibilities.
 A WHOLE LIBRARY OF BB QUADS!!!

Or, maybe, they're all just empty boxes, as has been posted

Yep, there's no way of knowing the actual content of those boxes. For all we know, they could be storing jewelry and stocks in there.  :lol

or socks!

the hoax theory is more preposterous than my quad theory.  i am not convinced they are quad tapes, but why would there be TWO copies of SUNFLOWER?  why would there only be wide boxes for the Warner era albums and the (unmixed) SMILE material?  anyone else have any legitimate theories?  any early experiment with 1/2" 2-track mixdown?  probably not but i can't think of anything else.  but the idea that someone decided to create a hoax and got together a large group of early '70s professional-grade Scotch tape boxes and wrote the name of every released Beach Boys record on them, as well as some that had not been released ... is preposterous.

stack o tracks

I'm with you. I was totally thinking Quad too. I think people are too fast to declare this picture is "nothing". I think there's too much going on in it not to say it's "something". Just an homage of empty boxes and an engraved plaque? C'mon...

I also believe this is not a fake. Why a fake? Doesn't make sense. Bellagio/Holland, Dumb Angel, etc... Perhaps "Vegetables" between the 1972 recordings is the Jan & Dean version? Perhaps Tracks is Carl & the Passions + Pet Sounds a copy of the C+P master, followed by Spring. Makes sense chronologically.
The Moorman Polaroid of Beach Boys history.

Assuming the tape boxes actually have the indicated recordings inside, the fact that the wide boxes contain only the Brother/Reprise and unmixed Smile material is a very interesting observation.  Also important to remember is that there were reel to reel decks that could record up to 16 tracks on half inch tape.  Half inch is certainly not the tape stock you'd use in the early 70s for an original recording of a group like the Beach Boys, but perhaps it could have been used for a multitrack safety copy, although from a sound quality standpoint recording 8 tracks on half inch tape would be preferable to 16.

After studying the picture for a few minutes, I have come to the conclusion that parts of the picture have been altered. The one that sticks out like a sore thumb to me is the "plaque" with the name Robert Rolle on it. Notice how the brownish color of the "plaque" seems to blend in with the greenish color directly below the "plaque". I believe that the "plaque" was very poorly inserted into the image after the picture had already been taken, and ended up overlapping with whatever was below. The black "hand writing" on the labels of the boxes also seems to have been added in after the fact.

My 1c worth.

You gain exclusive access to Aladdins Cave and you deem it worth one picture and no story?

 ???

"I assume...perhaps... Maybe... Maybe..."

The contract with Reprise included all the post-Pet Sounds Capitol albums, granted, but that was signed in early 1970.

If the band couldn't "legally release them", then why bother having copies anyway - they knew where the masters were.

As for the quad mixes assumption... you're basing this on looking at a single photo, the authenticity of which is universally dismissed by those involved with the band and the provenance of which is largely unknown ?  I'll bet you believe the moon landings were faked too, right ?  ;D

Then why not write that ? Almost all the other boxes have the album name in full.

Again, people here are so wound up in wanting it to be real they're missing the many elephants in the room. Worse, inventing newer, and increasingly outlandish theories. Once more: Steve Desper says it's faked, as does Steve Moffitt. These guys were engineers who were there at the time.

Agree that this is intriguing! Enjoying the fun.

Just a thought - are those Beach Boy tape boxes that are stacked on the cover of the Stack-o-Tracks album from 1968? I only have the 2-fer disc with Party! and it is not easy to read the box spines in the artwork, but there may be similarity with the shelf items in Ed's polaroid photo. Anyone have the Capitol LP or can post a decent resolution scan of the S-o-T cover? There are yellow spines and white spines and the detective in me says it would be nice to be able to see just what they are.

Maybe this is Brian's secret vault! Where he mixed his own versions of all the beach boys material. All these years he's just been fooling around and when he dies there's a provision in his will to release the contents of this vault including his vintage completed "Dumb Angel"

However, like Atlantis, the location of this vault has now been washed away, Brian just can't recall where he buried it. Robert Rolle and Paul Bramsem were fake personas Brian created for himself to entertain him while he worked. That's why there's no record of these people, because they're not real, just characters Brian dreamed up.

This photograph is all that remains!!! Brian hid clues around just in case he ever forgot, so he slipped this into Ed Roach's archives when nobody was looking. Somewhere in that picture, there's another clue buried. And whoever follows all the clues will likely be lead to a secret vault deep below the Bellagio house, where 20 years of repressed creativity lurk.

Who dares seek out the forbidden vault? Who is bold enough!

They are indeed, and it's my thinking that the people who staged this fake/hoax/whatever saw that and used it as a basis. If they'd had a better quality copy, they'd have noticed that the tape boxes are indexed as per the Leaf photo.

Here's a larger image than the 2fer booklet:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v96/Compost/Stack-o-Tracks.jpg)

I'll get right on it, as soon as I've uncovered Noah's Ark and the Ark of the Covenant.

Thanks Andrew. I was trying to see if any similarity in handwritten style or spellings, etc. My eyes are just not up to scanning a CD booklet these days.

Then why start the topic in the first place? Just to line up people who hypothesize out loud so they can be ridiculed?

I didn't start it.  Ed was just trying to figure out what, where and when.  To my keenly analytical mind, the answers (according to the available evidence and discounting flights of fancy) woudl seem to be "fake", "no idea" and "between early 1973/summer 1974".

As for ridiculing those who hypothesize, I think that's reasonable when said hypothesis is itself ridiculous (e.g. that because some of the boxes are wider they're quad mixes - should have said this at the time, but the only albums fully mixed for quad were Flame, Surf's Up, Spring and CATP (badly)).

Hey guys, I've been following this thread and I thought I'd throw in my thoughts, seeing as how things are heating up. All i want to say is that the reason the photo is interesting to me is that it is a mystery, nothing more. I'm interested in knowing, for as close to a fact as we can, what the story is. After all if we dont figure it out who ever will. I think there are certainly enough  things going on in the picture to give each side of the argument some ammo, but let's just try to solve the thing as much as it can be. No matter if you think it is ordinary or extraordinary, or (like me) try not to jump to either, it's fun to do some detective work. We need something until more smile news anyhow

For sure - I looove wrapping my head around things like this, as do others here, but we're obviously coming at it from different corners.  That's cool, as long as we get to the bottom of it, or at least reach something close to a consensus, and both sides are defending their views robustly... but somehow, I doubt a middle ground will be achieved.  ;D

Yer right, in that there's probably no middle ground.


Ed's original post was looking for real info; but as happens here, consistently, everyone wants to jump in with what couldashouldawoulda, instead of just agreeing they don't know anything useful. 
Myself, knowing what a huge fan of reels he was, I believe the photo is a shot of Coach's personal basement archive.

I resemble that remark !

I know many useful things... just so happens that what's really in that photo isn't one of them.

Yet.  :deadhorse

Those types of machines did exist come until much later; any 1/2" tapes in 1973 would be 4-track, any 1" tapes would be 8-track.

I am quite familiar with the work of Mr Desper and Mr Moffitt, and have nothing but the utmost respect for them.  I do not believe Desper was associated with the Beach Boys during the period in which the photo was taken, and it is quite possible that Moffitt would not have been involved in a transfer project.

i understand the warner contract was signed in 1970 and included pet sounds-20/20/  i am talking about when the time came to actually provide tape copies to the group.  does anyone have any info on which engineers handled this, when it took place, etc?   it is absolutely feasible that the group would wish to have copies of their catalog in their possesion, particularly in light of
their recent dealings with capitol. why would these supposed hoaxter's label extra boxes for the warner albums, the only ones the group would have access to?  why would the hoaxters have access to a temperature controlled tape storage facility with a huge lot of brand new early 70s scotch reels?  this was obviously some kind of specicic project.

I fear that meanwhile, on the Hoffman Boards, they're wetting themselves over the 'photo wars' going on here at the moment... :smokin

How can people learn anything if they can't ask questions? Why is it so wrong for someone to say, "Could this be..." and have Mr. Doe explain why it isn't? I like learning and being able to cross possibilities off the list.

If the only people allowed to speak are those who have definitive information the thread would have ended after the first post. I don't see what's so wrong about shooting the sh*t and seeing if any fresh ideas come to light. Forget it.

When I finally make contact with Bob Rolle and he tells me the truth I'll keep it to myself out of spite. I'll file it right next to the real reason why Andy Paley doesn't work with Brian anymore. Har har hardee har har.  >:D

Steve D compiled a Smile reel with Carl - if he says the "Dumb Angel" box isn't that reel, I believe him. As for Steve M, he's stated that this isn't the Brother vault, which eliminates one of the main reasons for believing it to be genuine.

To address the "temperature controlled" aspect - the only evidence for this is a $5 greenhouse max/min thermometer lying on a table behind the racks, when it should be mounted on the wall on insulating blocks in plain sight. A truly temperature-controlled vault would have thermostatically controlled AC, not someone looking at an instrument of questionable accuracy (my father used to grow orchids, so I speak with some authority on this point) and either opening or closing a door.

And again, you're assuming there's anything in those boxes. They were easy enough to buy empty, and cheap.

As for Capitol providing copies of the post 1966 album to Reprise, why not just give them the actual masters ? That's always been my reading of the contract.  As for the 1962-65 albums... why would they want copies anyway ? They had no use for them: Capitol held - and still holds - the rights to those masters. All the band could legally do was look at them, maybe play them now and then. That's all.

Andrew, how does that prove anything?  If they were going to fake a setup like this... wouldn't they write the full name of a RELEASED album?  The only person who would half-ass it would be someone who WASNT an obsessive fan!  Look how worked up you are over it.  If you (a huge fan) made this mock up, you never would have done that. 

My point was in replying to the poster who countered my incredulity at labelling a box "tracks" by claiming it was an abbreviation of SO'T, not the original intent. More, you'd have to be a reasonably clued in fan to even know about that album.  ;D

The only thing I'm even mildly worked up over is the people wandering about whispering to each other "don't mention the elephant...".

The writing style looks to be the same on the spines for the two Party tape reel boxes shown piled up on the Stack-o-Tracks cover - check out the T, A and M capitals in particular. Anyone able to read the others? Like Andrew has said this could just have been used as a template for an elaborate hoax, but this does rather beg the question - why? Clearly these are not the same (mix-down or album master) tape boxes shown in Ed's photo but they could be straight copies of said masters supplied to BRI, Brian on a-n-other as an artist back-up? Would be interesting to compare labels and handwriting for authentic tape boxes and listings from the Capitol vaults to compare. The capitalization used is pretty distinctive. Do we have known writing samples from Chuck Britz or studio personnel, for example?

More questions, I know .....

The one thing I haven't heard anyone state - another elephant apparently - if this is a hoax, what was the motive?  Why would anyone do this in 73-74, if that is when it was done based on what albums are on the tape boxes?  And if they did fake a tape vault photo, how did it end up in Ed's collection?

Assuming it is a fake, just because the tape boxes only go up to 73-74 doesn't mean that's when the photo was taken.  I mean, the guy is perpetrating a hoax, he doesn't have to include tape box album titles right up to when he faked the photo.  He may have wanted the photo to appear to be from 73-74, figuring no one would remember what the Brother tape vault looked like back then.

Another point about Stephen saying the Dumb Angel box was not the Smile comp tape he put together - he can't see inside the box, so how does he know?  Obviously someone has reboxed all these tapes (uniform writing etc.) or if these are copies they wouldn't be in the original box.  Would the eight track comp tape not fit in this box (which is the only way Stephen could be sure his tape wasn't in the box, titled differently).

Maybe because the actual box for the tape he compiled didn't say "Dumb Angel" ?

I'm trying to wrap my brain around the following scenario:

"OK, so that's the 1972 Desper Smile comp reel copied... now, let's label it... yeah, I know - "Dumb Angel" !"

"Obviously someone has reboxed all these tapes"

See, there you go again - with no proof whatsoever, you're assuming 1) there are tapes in the box and 2) they're what the labels say they are.  That's what I mean when I say I'm looking at this from the basis of what I can see, while you're working from the standpoint of what you want it to be. One of us is being objective (probably overly so, toppling into skeptical if not actually cynical), one isn't.  ;D

Going back to the Bellagio/Smile Shop model I referred to earlier, what was the motive there ? I've seen precisely two photos of it (in The Rainbow Files, a rareish BB reference book from the mid-90s). They just did it for the yucks. Because they wanted to.

As for how Ed got hold of it, didn't he say he thought someone gave it to Dennis ?

Another observation: I took a closer look and believe these could be 14” reels.  If you look at the size of the consumer 7” inch tapes to the left and compare, the Beach Boys-labeled tapes appear to be twice the length – but it is too hard to tell based on the angles.  This would make sense if they were dubbed at 15 ips, since a 10.5” reel only holds 30 minutes; a 14” reel holds 60 minutes.  If they are 10.5”reels, then some of the albums (namely the warner era) could not fit on the reels.  Typically, “SIDE ONE” and “SIDE TWO” masters would be on separate tapes.  They COULD be at 7.5 ips copies, but then they would only be a reference copy in that case.
 
The tapes on the top are ¼”.  There are two ¼” “PET SOUNDS” tapes, the one on top is presumably duophonic, as the one on the middle shelf says “MONO”.  The tapes on the middle shelf are 1/4” tapes from “ADD SOME MUSIC TO YOUR DAY” through “SPRING”, then 1/2” from “BELLIAGO/HOLLAND” through “SUNFLOWER”.  I cannot tell what is going on with the ones after that; looks like ¼” again.
 
Another possibility for the naysayers: this could possibly something designed for some kind of audio event to show off different tape machines, speaker systems, etc … but the inexplicable inclusion of “DUMB ANGEL” etc does not make sense.  Someone would have to be an OBSESSIVE beach boys fan (with some inside information) or the group would have to have been involved in this event somehow.

The tape boxes in the photo are Scotch brand with the design of the late-‘60s-early ‘70s (you can see most of the Scotch boxes on the Stack O Tracks cover are of a different design, circa early-mid ‘60s).  Scotch changed the design from those white boxed sometime in the mid-‘70s.  If the photo is a hoax that was created later than ’73-’74, it would have to have been done by someone who knows a lot about vintage tapes AND the beach boys, and I am probably the only one in the world who meets that criteria!
 
And Mr. Doe, i believe there are most certainly tapes in the boxes.  I don’t know how or why someone would bulk order 3M tape boxes; I doubt 3M even sold JUST BOXES!  That is completely absurd.  The boxes are not generic; they are of a very specific design, particularly the ½” tapes with the distinct “box within a box” foldout design – trust me on this.
 
I am not saying I know what is on the tapes.  It could very well be just some audio enthusiast who had a lot of spare income to play with tape machines and was an obsessed beach boys fan.  But there are other theories to be explored.

See, there you go again - with no proof whatsoever, you're assuming 1) there are no tapes in the boxes and 2) they're not what the clearly visible labels say they are.  That's what I mean when I say I'm looking at this from the basis of common sense; that when someone goes through the trouble of compiling organized shelves filled with recording tape boxes that these boxes would also, most likely, be housing actual tapes and, logically, the tapes would contain the materials listed on the box spines.   :afro

I'm starting to think that a young fan named Doe took this picture a long time ago and is trying to steer us away from his secret stash!  ;D

Secret stashes belong in the "SMiLE Sessions box set!" thread, suuurley!

Great posts, DonnyL!  :thumbsup

Still waiting for Mr. Doe to explain his theory with such arguments. (http://www.downloadsguru.com/images/smilies/new1/yawn.gif)

(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k154/dorphas/leprechaun4.jpg)

so explain why this may be real....  :-D

As you wish.

"The tape boxes in the photo are Scotch brand with the design of the late-‘60s-early ‘70s (you can see most of the Scotch boxes on the Stack O Tracks cover are of a different design, circa early-mid ‘60s)."

Only one of the boxes in question is showing a design, so I'll agree that it is a Scotch box: the others have either no design, or if there is one, it's covered by the label. Could be generic storage boxes, could be Scotch boxes: we have no way of knowing. But thanks, that's a very useful observation as it narrows the time frame for when these tapes (if they are genuine) were made.

"And Mr. Doe, i believe there are most certainly tapes in the boxes."

Good, I like that wording. Not assuming. I believe there may not be tapes in those boxes: again, no way to be certain from the photo.

"I don’t know how or why someone would bulk order 3M tape boxes; I doubt 3M even sold JUST BOXES!"

Refer to my first comment: only one box is unquestionably Scotch. "London".

"The boxes are not generic; they are of a very specific design, particularly the ½” tapes with the distinct “box within a box” foldout design – trust me on this."

Not being sarcastic here, this is a genuine request: how can you tell from this photo ? Can you show me the signs, or point me to an image of the box that I can compare it with ? You have expertise in this area, I don't. If I may observe, though, the boxes on the upper shelf are manifestly thinner, so not of the same design (are they ?).
 
"I am not saying I know what is on the tapes.  It could very well be just some audio enthusiast who had a lot of spare income to play with tape machines and was an obsessed beach boys fan."

Again, good observation: I could write on a piece of paper "current balance in my account £10,000,000 credit", but that doesn't make it true. I've got some BB albums labelled stereo that are decidedly not.  ;D

"But there are other theories to be explored."

Always. It's what we do here.  ;D

Strange lengths to go to for yucks, and that still doesn't explain it fully.  "Because they wanted to," well, why would somebody want to set this up?  If it's a "hoax" and somebody wanted to do it for yucks, it is an awfully small crowd to target.  And I feel like somebody would have admitted to it by now--otherwise what's the payoff?

If it is "fake" but not a "hoax" I could see it being some sort of loving monument to the Beach Boys recorded output.  A personal shrine of sorts.  That makes more sense than an intentional hoax.

There we go. It was all a hoax cooked up by Dennis in 1973 as a joke to screw up fans later on  :lol

Josh, you've been closer to real archives/vaults than any of us - what's your 1) gut feeling and 2) considered response ?

And, nice distinction between "hoax" and "fake". I think it's the latter. Like the board Chuck rigged for Murry.



Aaahhhh, those wacky Wilsons, huh ?  ::)

This is not like a UFO hoax where thousands and thousands of people get hung up on it.
If it were a hoax, that's an awful lot of work and energy spent on a elaborate joke that only 20 people actually give a sh*t about. Think about it.

Imagine one Polaroid photo causing so much discussion! It's too bad we couldn't get Jim Garrison on the job. ;D

I really have no idea--it certainly looks very "vaulty" but I seriously doubt there's actually something unheard in there.  The allure of unheard/unknown material is much less interesting to me than the overall strangeness.  If it's a fan shrine, why the slight inconsistencies that a fan "should" know better than to "commit"?  But then, if it's just sort of for show, it doesn't really matter--perhaps the different tape boxes were all this person could round up and the different sizes are coincidences of how they ended up in a pile.  Maybe the larger boxes actually have smaller reels in them: not unheard of to have mis-matched boxes.  Maybe there's CDs in the boxes?

I agree that it would be unusual to buy empty tape boxes, though.  Maybe this fan was making the switch to digital in his studio and decided to throw away some old tape that he knew he'd never use, was listening to the Beach Boys at the time and thought he'd keep a few boxes and make a liitle mock-up "holy grail" as a display.

But again, if somebody is that serious, why aren't they on this board right now?

They might be busy making crop circles on their farm?  :p

It's Mike's secret stash. He secretly hates the surf/car songs and after having forced his way through two hours of singing them on stage he enjoys nothing more then going home, putting his feet up, rolling a fat one and kicking back to the quad mix of Holland.

I'm pretty sure that's what some of you guys are doing just before posting on this thread.  :-D

 :lol

Quality post. :lol

No...CDs didn't exist in the mid-'70s, nor did any kind of digital audio.  As for why they aren't on this board right now...maybe these guys NEVER made the leap to digital, and don't use the internet (hard as THAT may be to believe).

Donny L. - Thanks for the time frame correction.  You're right, 8 and 16 track decks which would record on half inch tape were not available in 73-74, assuming (sorry, Andrew) that's when the tapes (if, in fact, there are tapes with the indicated titles in the boxes) were made.  

As far as the presumption that four track quad mixes are on the half inch tapes, the quad mixes that Stephen Desper made in the early 70s were all two track matrix mixes he produced from the multitracks.  These two track stereo mixes needed four speakers with a simple wiring modification (as illustrated on a sheet included in The Flame album) or a simple decoder to achieve a four track quadraphonic effect.  My recollection is that none of them were recorded in a discrete four track format.

I don't think anyone is thinking this photo was taken at the Brother or Capitol tape vaults.  If these tape boxes are assumed to actually hold BB recordings, then they would have to be copies, either authorized or unauthorized.  But who made them, and where are they stored?  That mystery is part of the fun of all this.  And if Ed isn't just throwing this out for the fun of seeing what the various responses would be, then we have to trust his statement that Alan Boyd is curious about this too.

Andrew, when Desper said it's a fake, was he just meaning that it's a fake if it is supposedly a photo of the Brother vaults?  

This is a fascinating mystery, and I'm totally enjoy reading all the theories.  Yeah, this could certainly be a fake some fans cooked up, but what if ...

Just a wild thought or two ...

Could this possibly be a Beach Boys-connected vault/storage other than Brother Records? For instance, maybe an individual Beach Boy's tape store? I'm thinking that Mike probably had some stash of tapes at his Santa Barbara studio. And I think it's been established that Al's got some tapes at his Big Sur ranch studio; those had to have been stored somewhere before he built his current studio setup.

And then there's the question of where the tapes were stored in the interim after Marilyn threw the studio out of the Bellagio house (circa So Tough) and before Brother Studios was set up (in 1974, I think). They had to have been stored somewhere, and the picture seems to possibly date from around that time.

I can see the Scotch logo on multiple boxes (semi obscured by the written labels); in addition, the cardboard "box within a box" design on the 1/2" tapes is Scotch, it is also an indicator that it is not a 1/4" tape box because they only used that weird box design for the thicker reels.  i will take a picture of some of my own tapes at some point this weekend and show you what i mean.  but i have not seen any other manufacturer to use these boxes and i have seen A LOT of old tapes.  also, there is an entire bottom shelf with unused Scotch reels on there - i will admit i am using deductive reasoning to ASSUME all the boxes are Scotch ... but there is no reason to believe otherwise, they are all of a uniform pattern and appear to be the same type tape box.

3M / Scotch made the 1/4" tapes in a regular, thinner box, like this (this auction shows a similar-era Scotch reel) - these are the ones on the top shelf:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Scotch-Pro-203-Reel-Reel-Tape10-inch-Set-Two-/170623539265?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27b9f49841

Their 1/2" tape used this thick cardboard, kind of like a shipping box and it was a wrap within another wrap.  i will take it apart and show you some photos.  but the 1/2" boxes in the middle shelf are definitely these boxes.  i can see the edges.  these are 1/2" 4-track tapes.

I'm starting to think that if this is real, it's connected to Dennis somehow.

When was it that Dennis told someone "I Found The SMiLE Tapes!?

I didn't know that about the quad mixes -- but those are not real quad, as in a quad record as commercially released.  i was just guessing these could be quad mixes (not intented for release, as an example of a playback system, or as an experiment?) because i can't figure out where there would be 1/2" tapes there.

if we are going to write this off as a hoax, then we ought to have proof or at least a REASONABLE explanation as to how and why someone would do this.

even if it is a "fan" (quite a fan) display of some kind, i am personally quite interested in finding out how and why someone would create such a thing.

Let's say this is the private collection of an audio enthusiast obsessed with the work of the Beach Boys.  He would have to be a diligent follower, essentially an expert in the group's output (particularly with regard to the "DUMB
ANGEL"/"SPRING" tapes, etc).  I have no doubt whatsoever based on the facts presented by Mr Roach and the appearance of the tape boxes that the photo was taken around 1973.  How much information would a fan have access to at this point in time?  Would they be aware of references such as about Bellagio, "Dumb Angel", etc?  Perhaps this fan read a magazine article or two?

Okay, so this EXPERT fan is also an audio enthusiast beyond the normal realm.  Basically, he has access to studio equipment, as consumer/prosumer gear at this time would not have been equipped to handle some of the tapes in the photo.  Perhaps he works at or runs a recording studio?  Duplicating plant?  Did he dub his comprehensive Beach Boys vinyl collection to 1/4" tapes?  Quite possible, lots of people did that (and some still do).  So this person or group of people decided to make 1/2" (4-track) copies of some of the beach boys albums which he already has 1/4" copies of (SUNFLOWER, SURF'S UP, etc), which also happen to be only the warner material.  WHY?  What is his incentive as an audio fan to do this?  What would he put on the tapes?  He also made a 1/4" reel of just the song "add some music to your day", which incidentally is a song the Beach Boys made a BUNCH of different mixes of at some point (I think 23 mixes?).  he also labeled a tape "REMOTE/ST. PAUL".  The theory that this guy was just a fan, even a crazed fan, doesn't add up to me; there are too many holes.

Ok, so maybe it is an actual, elaborate hoax and there are no beach boys recordings on any of the tapes.  WHY?  Why in the world would someone (who has extensive and elaborate knowledge of the beach boys) expend the resources to create this?

YES!  this is exactly the kind of thing that makes a whole lot more sense than a hoax, etc.

oh also, it makes complete sense that "TRACKS" is "stack o tracks"; after all, it's next to "LONDON".  

Mike's studio at Santa Barbara didn't exist in the mid-70s, as far as I know. Likewise Jardine's Barn - to cut the KTSA tracks up there they had to hire equipment.

Brother was functioning, at least for mixdowns, in summer 1973, and Marilyn didn't throw the studio out, rather she refused to let it be reinstalled when it came back from its Dutch vacation.  ;D

Thanks for that.

I think we should avoid using the term "hoax" and stick with "fake". The plaques are the things that make me question the idea that the tape boxes are genuine Beach Boys session tapes/album masters/safety copies. If this vault was being used by any member of the Beach Boys to store tape permanently or temporarily, why would there be an engraved plaque thanking the band? Why would a studio engineer (one nobody has ever heard of) have his name engraved on a plaque on this shelf? The only reason I can think of is that the tape boxes are part of a display. Perhaps the Beach Boys ("especially Brian") decided to give a fan a boatload of tapes because they didn't feel they had any further use for them, but I can't imagine any official vault would feature plaques like the ones seen in the photo.

Fan, remember, is a contraction of fanatic. Fans do crazy things: I've seen stuff inside the houses of Presley fans that would make the Pope say "WTF ?"  I know of at least one BB fan who has, or had, a BW shrine. Not a collection, or a music room - a shrine.

Here's what I think: it's not, as was once claimed, the Brother vault or any other such commercial enterprise. Could well be some audio fanatic, or someone with a home studio and a knowledge of recording terminology. Definitely a BB fan with wider knowledge than most and a copy of Stack O' Tracks. Fans do crazy things - who's to say that one day in 1973, bored, this guy decided to make use of some spare shelf space by mocking up some BB masters from empty boxes they had lying around and that, being maybe in Minnesota, they included a non-existent concert tape ?  Why ? Just for yucks. The material was to hand, couldn't have taken more than a few hours. Fills an empty afternoon. Take a few polaroids.

Yeah, it's crazy... but it's no less crazy than some of the other proposed notions, and it's based on what's in the photo.  Bottom line is, unless whoever comes forward, we'll never know. And y'know something ? A part of me doesn't want to.  :-D

But where did all the tapes go when the studio went to Holland? Surely they didn't ship all the tapes over there with the equipment?!! They had to store everything that didn't make the trip somewhere, right?

And I thought the story about the Holland trip was that Moffitt had to pull their studio equipment out of storage to reassemble, test and ship it because it already had been removed from the Bellagio house.

Even if there wasn't a studio, there's a space where there used to be a studio.  ;)

As for the timeline as laid out in the Holland booklet, it doesn't square with the facts: Moffit says that when assisting in breaking down Brian's living room studio (it wasn't), a 'dream console' was discussed. He then says the call to construct same came mid-March with June 1st deadline. Small problem with that: the CATP sessions at Bellagio, Sunset & Village Recorders were still happening April 3rd-18th, so the home studio was still operative in mid-April. My best guess here is that when Steve M saw he wasn't going to make the deadline with an all new console, he cannibalized the home studio. Can't prove that, but we can prove that his remembered tale is, in fact, misremembered.

i would like to know!  i also don't think this has anything to do with anyone's home studio (almost unheard of in '73 ... do you know how much tape decks cost back then?  you could buy yourself a house with the cost of a multi-track deck ... and hobbyists would not be playing around with 1/2" tapes or 1/2" tape boxes).  i've been thinking this could have possibly for some some kind of industry audio convention ("sound system", "thanks to the beach boys", etc.) but it is inexplicable as to why the beach boys would have "donated" their entire output (including unreleased material) for such an event.  and this would be assuming that they had copies of the Capitol material, which I still think is quite possible.

  

Can the experts tell me one thing:  are the original session tapes for “Vega-tables”/”Vegetables” on 4-track or 8-track masters? (I suspect the answer will be both)

I really don't understand what the hubub is all about.

My father had a 1/4" machine and he'd buy these hi-fidelity classical records and record them to 1/4".  He had his own little library.
By dubbing the vinyl to tape,  he preserved the albums.  1/4" sound a hell of a lot better than cassette tapes.

This guy is probably a Beach Boys audiophile who dubbed his albums to 1/4", made his own 'mix' tapes, and maybe even converted collected boots (or friends boots) to 1/4".
This foto just looks like some hardcore hobbyist/audiophile's basement tape collection.

There is no indication any of these are lost 'Smile' masters or anything else.

was this prior to 1974 and did your father have a machine capable of playing 10.5" or 14" reels and did he also have a 1/2" 4-track machine?

Well, the known "Vega-tables" sessions were almost exclusively recorded at Columbia and Sound Recorders, both of which had 8-track capability.

I also just did some quick research and found the AES (audio engineering society), which has yearly conventions, released a paper involving quadrophonic records for their 1973 convention:

https://secure.aes.org/forum/pubs/conventions/?elib=1730

They had a convention in Los Angeles in May 1973.  Maybe completely unrelated, but food for thought.

Steve Desper did a presentation on quad, using some tapes most of us here know quite well, at least a year, maybe two, before that. That was the purpose of the so-called  "Quad Symphony".

I thought these were 1/4" tapes.  If Paul Bramsem was a recording engineer (as Mark L seems to believe), he would certainly have access to 1/2" machines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reel-to-reel_audio_tape_recording

***************
Speaking of lost tapes, this article is worth a read again:

http://www.newtimesslo.com/cover/3164/the-reel-deal/

DonnyL - 10.5 inch reels with 3600 feet of tape, like the eBay photo you posted, would hold 45 minutes at 15 ips.

Also, as Donny mentioned, it would be unusual for someone to have a bunch of empty Scotch reel to reel boxes laying around.  Empty boxes were available for purchase, but they were usually all white.  I very much doubt that empty boxes with the Scotch logo or half inch Scotch style were available for retail purchase. 

Surfrider - your comments support my belief that this is not a hobbyist/fan collection.   custommachine - good observation; i had not thought of the possibility of 1.0 mil tapes, i assumed they would be 1.5 mil.  that would make sense ... the only album that would not fit would be HOLLAND including fairy tale, but that could easily be on the misc. reel.  it probably makes more sense to be 1.0 mil on 10.5" then 1.5 mil on 14".

This makes sense except there are tapes - like Dumb Angel - that wouldn't contain anything - what Smile boots were there in 1974?  How would he have a tape copy of "Sacremento Remote?"

Other than that one problem, this theory makes far more sense to me than Andrew's - getting a bunch of empty tape boxes, lining them up with BB titles as a shrine? 

News Flash!

Brian's personal BB Demo tape vault discovered.  Boxes cleverly labeled in code as an extra precaution.

(http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu268/surfriderhi/WislonBBDemos.jpg)

My father's library looked something like this:

(http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu268/surfriderhi/Dad.jpg)

that's cool stuff man, but those certainly look like a hifi enthusiast's collection on 7" reels.  the wikipedia entry you linked to (which details very basic information) also indicated that 7" reels are typical of a home/hobbyist setup, while 10.5" reels are usually found in studios.  i don't understand what you are trying to say; everything you are posting supports my theories.  10.5" capable consumer decks did exist (more common later into the '70s) and a hifi hobbyist could also acquire a real Ampex studio deck, etc ... while these scenarios are within the realm of possibility, they are less likely than other possibilities.

there are many other reasons why the fan/audio enthusiast theory doesn't add up.

Width of the tape is not to be confused with the length or tape speed.
These are 1/4" (width) tapes  of various length and speed.

my friend, those tapes appear to be 7" reels (the approx. size of a vinyl 45), while studio tapes are 10.5" around (closer to the size of an LP).  Yes, they are 1/4"; all 7" tapes are.  the speed is determined by the recorder, not the tape.  the length of all of your dad's tapes are either 1200 ft, 1800 ft or, rarely, 2400 ft.  take a look and report back to me that i am correct.

7" reels.  Record speed is not determined by the tape but by the recorder. 

Recording Tape. 1/4 in. 1800 feet Hi-Output, Wide Dynamic Range, Low Noise. E35-7
Maxell.

just a thought....

how about a photo from a possible cover photo shoot for a Stack of Tracks 2 ?
Thinking 1975 around the time of "endless summer" there was a whack of dubious BB releases (High Water anyone?)
so maybe this picture was something thrown together for some sort of compilation.. ::)

 I still think the picture shows Coach's tape "vault"; but since everyone wants a different explanation, perhaps the tape BOXES shown were assembled by Darian's Father, to give him some background before he started getting into Smile stuff at the studio where he worked.

lol bgas what the fack

Ya know, thinking more about it and dredging up old memories, I can't \swear about the tapes, but the storage shelves look exactly like the one Kevin and Pam Worrilow used to have in their basement, where they stored their BEach Boys collection. 

Wow, you're right, Bgas!!  It looks exactly like the shelves in the Worrilow's basement! They had a helluva collection.  I wonder if......

That was in 1978 when he cleaned out the Brother Studios for sale and doesn't fit in the time frame here.
Although he allegedly compiled SMiLE material for people like Robert Morgan or just copied existing SMiLE comp reels, the famous sentence was "I found the Fire tapes!"
Dennis went through the tapes, listened to unlabeled tapes (70's stuff). I think it's interesting that he found SMiLE material in the Brother vaults and allegedly a couple of his copies left the studio. From what I read, those were the first real SMiLE boots in wider fan circles, but I'm not saying that's really true.

Hell, for all we know, "Dumb Angel" might be the name of a local mid '70's St. Paul bar band.  ;D

As has been pointed out, and conceded, of all the alleged BB boxes under consideration, only one unquestionably has a Scotch logo. The others are all white. Just sayin'...

The first admitted Smile tape to leak was the one given to Byron Preiss in late 1977/early 1978 while he was writing the authorised BB biography.

The Worrilows - damn, there's a name I've not heard for something like 25 years, maybe more.

Have not heard the name myself. Who were they?

Well known fans from back in the day before this internetweb dofus, back when we used to communicate by phone and mail. Taber would recall the name too.

Thanks.

What is this phone you speak of, you mean the thing I use to surf the web, take pictures, and listen to music? Oh and I believe you left the "e" off of e-mail

A little respect for your elders, sonny.  ;D

I looked up those terms on wikipedia, and as it turns out there was also this primative form of text messaging called "telegrams"  ::)

i remember them...in 1983 i had a bunch of, ah stuff, and i drove to cincinnati and had dinner with them. gave them a bunch of, ah..stuff, and they did the same. i gave them my copy of brad's book 'cause they didn't have it yet. nice people.

indeed

many of the Beach Boys boxes are unquestionably Scotch -- the ones to the right, labeled "CONCERT" and "SHUT DOWN VOL II" are sticking out slightly and have a visible Scotch design, the "misc beach boys material" has a scotch logo visible on top, the 1/2" boxes have the Scotch box design, and there are a bunch of Scotch boxes on the bottom shelf.  The boxes all have a uniform appearance.  There is clearly no reason to think these are not all Scotch boxes!

It makes no sense to me how this could be a fan shrine or audio hobbyist collection.  These are certainly NOT original master tapes; they are obviously safety/reference copies (source unknown) made as a group for some specific purpose, authorized or unauthorized.

And your proof is... ?

All we have to go on is a single polaroid.  All we can say for certain is that in this picture there are 35 tape boxes bearing either the names of Beach Boys albums, songs, related projects or titles that are decidedly ambiguous. One of these boxes clearly shows a Scotch logo, two others show strogn signs of being Scotch boxes. Anything else is conjecture to a greater or lesser degree.

(http://thebeachboys.ch/Galerie/albums/userpics/library.jpg)

i cannot prove my theories but neither can you.

you are thinking in terms of facts; i am thinking in terms probability. We are all presenting theories regarding what we think is depicted in this photograph.  i respect and appreciate your work and knowledge (i even own one of your books!) but i think the theories i have presented are more realistic than the ones you have presented.  the theories you have presented do not make sense to me and i consider them to be illogical.  Perhaps the language i am using is too strong; how about "it seems fairly obvious to ME that these are reference or safety copies".  i have no idea WHY this collection was created or by whom.  But that's where the theories and guessing comes in.  We are not going to get very far if we are thinking in terms of facts only.

Facts are where I start from, not where I stop.  ;D

Which brings me to something I just noticed... the wording on the plaques is a bit odd, isn't it ?

"Studio & engineering by..."

"Thanks also, The Beach Boys ! (Especially Brian)"

This is just a feeling, a hunch if you like... but maybe we should be looking outside North America ?

You're saying that this tape collection/fake was made during the Beach Boys' Dutch holiday?

Perhaps someone could close in on the bolts and determine whether they are metric or standard threads; coupling that info with the year, might help define the country . 
  Myself, I now lean towards this being the Home Archive of one Daniel Rutherford of Vancouver, BC. Daniel would have known all of the BBs inside scoop being a dedicated collector/ uber-fan/ friend of Murry Wilson. ( Dan later married the Ex Mrs. Brian Wilson)  Perhaps Murry even gifted Daniel with some or all of the tapes/boxes.

Andrew you have such a strange view on this.  I don't know why you won't even allow for the possibility that these are anything but empty boxes, lol.  It's amazing.

Earlier in the thread, you said one gentleman probably thinks the moon landings were faked.  All we have to prove the moon landings weren't faked are videotapes.  Why do you believe that, but don't believe this?  It's kind of strange that you're so hard core against this being anything interesting at all.

Andrew; have you forgotten how to dream?  :)

I feel the same.  Don't know the names, but I think what we're looking at is someone remotely related to the band, who had a member of the band do him a favor and get him some copies of some stuff.  I doubt there's anything groundbreaking in there, but there may be some unreleased stuff.  I'm just pulling all of that out of thin air though, No facts to back it up.  LOL

Occam's Razor, here?

The tapes on the shelve behind to the left. Anyone else see what I see?

'NIXON RECORDINGS. MISSING 18 MINUTES'

 :lol

I think the exclamation point after 'Beach Boys' on the plaque is indicative of a fans/personal collection.

"Especially Brian"?

(http://verydemotivational.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/demotivational-posters-im-sure-hes-legit.jpg)

that makes sense but there are plenty of other possibilities.  Let's say this was a private tape storage/playback facility and the Beach Boys donated some gear or cash in exchange for duping the tapes and storing them there.  not saying i believe it, but it makes about as much sense as dismissing this as a fan collection.  could be a PRIVATE collection, but this person or group of people would likely be some type of audio industry professional who had an association with the group.

further, as i noted earlier WHY would a fan/hobbyist have 1/2" tapes for only Warner material that he also has 1/4" copies of?  1/2" 2-track machines were not in use; these would be 4-track tapes.  yes, again i am assuming the boxes are not empty!

Occam's Razor, always :)

It's a picture of a bunch of tapes.  Some haven't been released.  Somebody's got a collection of tapes with some unreleased sh*t.







I love that Occam guy.   ;D

I start to believe that Mr. Doe doesn't want these tapes to be located.
Must be his own collection.

Is this thread close to being done? Cause I wanna be the last one to post in it and say

You're still a mystery

(see what I did there?)

The way I see it, there are three unique characteristics associated with this photo:

(1) the name "Robert P. Rolle"
(2) the name "Paul Bramsem"
(3) the tape labeled "Beach Boys/Remote/St. Paul," which seems to be a tape of a show that none of us has ever heard or even heard of.

Add to that the fact that there is a person on Facebook named "Paul Bramsem Sr." who is from St. Paul, MN (as reported earlier by Bubba Ho-Tep).

Now add this:

I found a copy online of the Minnesota Daily, the newspaper of The University of Minnesota in Minneapolis (right next to St. Paul), in which "Robert P. Rolle" is referenced as a sophomore at the school. The paper is from April 24, 1957. The article is titled "Students Chosen For SLA Posts." It can be found on page 2 here: http://www.mndaily.com/sites/default/files/paper-pdfs/1957/04/24/1957-04-24.pdf (http://www.mndaily.com/sites/default/files/paper-pdfs/1957/04/24/1957-04-24.pdf)

There's no way to know for sure that it's the same Robert P. Rolle, but I think we're seeing way too many connections to the Minneapolis/St. Paul area for it to be pure coincidence. I think the key to this mystery lies in Minneapolis/St. Paul.

From here on, everything I offer is pure conjecture ...

I think we're looking at the tape storage area of a local Beach Boys-connected musician or perhaps a small studio in that area.

As to the first possibility (a BB-connected musician), what immediately comes to mind is that David Sandler is from Minnesota (he currently lives in Edina, a suburb of Minneapolis). He worked with Brian on-and-off from 1971 to 1973, both in L.A. and in Iowa, and certainly would have had access to the group's tapes while working at Brian's home studio. And his connection with Brian would certainly explain the third plaque: "Thanks Also, The Beach Boys! (Especially Brian)"

Could this be a picture of Sandler's tape collection? Were Rolle and Bransem associates of his?

The second possibility is that Rolle and/or Bransem ran a small studio in Minneapolis/St. Paul that The Beach Boys enlisted to help tape a show there or perhaps just handle the sound for a show. If I had to pick from the shows AGD has referenced as being held in St. Paul, I think I'd opt for either the July 22, 1974 or November 3, 1975 concert, given the various tapes pictured.

Now, I have no idea how we get from that situation to Rolle and/or Bransem obtaining copies of various BB master tapes. Admittedly, that doesn't make a lot of sense, but stranger things have happened.

Is there any possibility that Brian was on hand for either of the 1974 and 1975 shows? Is it possible that Rolle and/or Bransem negotiated, as partial payment for their services, an introduction to Brian, and that led to their being allowed to copy some tapes? Yeah, I'm completely shooting in the dark, but the setup we see doesn't lend itself (in my opinion) to being just some fan-based tribute to the band. I think there's a lot more going on here than that.

if I were to fake a pic like this for the sake of winding fans up I'd sure as hell include boxes tagged 'Good Vibrations - background vocals' and 'good Vibrations - lead vocal overdub' and even 'Good Vibrations - vocal overdub for that bit where everyone goes 'Aaaaaah''.

I do allow for the possibility that they may be tapes in the boxes (check my earlier posts), I'm just not of the company that are starting with the assumption that not only are there tapes in those boxes, but that they are undoubtedly Beach Boys tapes.

"All we have to prove the moon landings weren't faked are videotapes." Actually, there's a lot more than video tapes: photos, data transmissions, personal recollections, consistent physics and so on... at the risk of opening a whole new can of worms, there's far, far more evidence (by several orders of magnitude) for the moon landings than there is for the existence of Jesus.

I'm not hardcore against this being anything interesting at all - I want to know exactly what it is and, almost more importantly, why ?  There's too much internal inconsistency, in my view, for it to be kosher. Yes, there are points where I'm looking at it and going "can't figure that", but the overwhelming body of evidence as presented by that photo (not what I, or you, think, or wish,or hope, or pray, but what is) tells me something smells funny.


I stand to be corrected, but in the mid-70s, no-one knew they were missing, because no-one was looking for them.  :)

Beach Head makes some interesting points: they're based on facts and he admits that some of them don't make much sense. I don't agree with all of them, but admire the thought processes behind them - yes, because they mirror mine in this matter.  :)

Someone mentioned Dan Rutherford earlier on - I'll send a copy of the photo to him.

Fyi, I just fired off an e-mail (with photo) to David Sandler through the contact address listed at his Glacier Records website (www.glacierdisc.com). I'll let you know what I hear.

Maybe they're missing because they're on another, not-depicted shelf in this vault?!!!

Copies of image despatched to Dan and David*: truthfully, I'm not expecting much more than "never seen that before", but even that will be useful. And you never know...


[* no slight intended to Beach Head, but I've tried a (hopefully) slightly more direct route]

Wouldn't it be cool if AGD, the most sceptical in this case, would be successfull in locating the place where this pic was taken?
Another thing: Remember, this photo slept in Mr. Roach's possession for around 30 years before he made it available on the net. If this is some kind of put-on, Mr. Roach must be involved - and I'm certainly not saying that's the case. Ok, some people will now combine that this was a joke posted in a BB Fanzine in the 70's, the storage was arranged for the back-cover of a BB compilation or so, but did someone see this pic before Mr. Roach made it available? The answer is no.
And sorry for my prickly behavor against Mr. Doe lately, but I mean, there's a SMiLE boxset coming out and people involved are trying to find out more about this all and a person who's word some people take for granted says something like "Don't search, forget about it, it's nothing worth". You know what I mean?

I'd love it if anyone (but yeah... preferably me) found out the who, where, when and why (especially the why ?)... and believe me, given that I have a lot of time on my hands right now, I've been searching as much as most here. It's my nature.  If it's proven that this is legit, then I'll happily put my hands up and say "sorry, wrong and apologies" (won't be the first time, won't be the biggest recantation)... but I'm not convinced we'll get to that point.  :)

I reckon your the best Andrew!!! 8)

That makes two, then.  ;D

Well three actually Em thinks your pretty dosh garn the best as well!!

There is a difference between "your" (belonging to you) and "you're" (you are).  Yes, I know I'm being  pedantic...  :police:

Carry on... ;D

And also a difference between 2 beers and 14....

"And also" is a tautology.

Also should read "two (spelled out in full is best practice for numbers between one and ten [nine in some publishers' rules]) beers or 14", making it a choice.

The pedants are revolting!

How is Melinda nowadays?  ;D

Any advance on three ?  8)

She's cool... we're cool... but it wasn't her. Just asked DS directly via a mutual friend.

Got a response just a little while ago from David Sandler.

In its entirety:

> I don't think I can help you- Sorry.

So that theory goes in the toilet! Next!

Hey, at least you got a response !

I have to take serious objection to this allegation. The evidence for Apollo is the most documented project in history. The documentation began with the formation of NACA and follows through to this day.

The evidence for the moon landings is so great that I have staked my entire professional career on it. Have you done the same?

The sad _fact_ is that the ravings of some intentionally and unintentionally deluded folk has permeated enough into pop culture that such musing are becoming the "norm".

I haver researched more about Apollo than you probably ever wikll in your entire life. I have spoken in-person with not only the Apollo astronauts, but with tracking station personel and third party enthusiasts who tracked the missions as well.

Imagine you have just spent 5 years writing about about a particular topoic. Now imagine you hear someone say that all you have written is bunk and then use a false argument to make that statement. Do you smile and say, wow that is some jolly wit, or do you argue your point?

Sorry to derail. Steerin g back on track, no cassette tape taken on the lunar missions ever had any BB material on it.

But... one of Armstrong's tapes was of theremin music !

Yes, it's sad.  My ex-wife came home one day and said the moon landing was faked in the Arizona desert. when I said something to the effect of "are you a complete Fucking idiot?" she replied that it had to be true, because she "heard it on the radio"

Four, for, fore, and 4.  ;D

The more I think about, the more I remember seeing this picture on the internet many years ago(1998-ish), and also remember reading that there was definite proof that the picture was an elaborate hoax. Do I remember what the proof was? No. Do I remember the name of the website, or the URL of the website? Sadly, the answer again is no. It seems to me that it may  have been a website that hasn't survived the test of time. Back to square one, I guess. Sorry guys.  :-\

You're just a big tease, ain'tcha ?  :p

Ah! You can stop arguing, I got it now.

Those are pizza delivery boxes from a pizza delivery service that names all pizzas after Beach Boys albums. "Tracks" means "the works".

Some guy collected all of those pizza boxes and photographed them. And he wears a huge beard.  ;D

Just used a brilliant application called TinEye to search the entire interweb for Ed's image.

This software compares images on billions of pages to the image you've asked it to look for, and reports it to you. Photographers use it to check for copyright infringements.

It occurred to me that if someone had rigged this as a fake, then it might have been posted on a blog or another website somewhere, that might give us a clue.

www.tineye.com

It didn't find the image though.  And when you think about it, as Ed's had the original for many years, it'll predate digital scanning so there's no way it could be anywhere else online.

I'll go back to work now, as I have the feeling you're all going "phoooeee" and turning away from the screen.

Worth using again though occasionally as the results won't necessarily be the same again.  Especially as it didn't even manage to find the image(s) in this thread.  Yet.

What might be out there could be another similar-but-not-precisely-the-same image taken at the same time -  the slight differences would prevent TinyEye from finding it.

I'll leave it to AGD to spell out the moral of this tale.  Which is something like "don't go on the hill without a proper map and compass -  don't rely on GPS and other forms of technology to get you home."

Personally, I use a very big ball of string, one end tied to my front door handle.

That was an excellent idea. It just didn't work... but in the future, it may,

With all due respect, maybe you ought to calm the f*** down a little bit. 

I think you should re-read the post and show some respect.

I learn from the best.  :p

Touché.  ;D

Word back from Dan. Same as David. Oh well, we tried...

Exclusive photo of the real 'Smile' tapes

(http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu268/surfriderhi/Smile.jpg)

Is it from the same boxes as this?

http://www.bradcoweb.com/smile/musical.htm

Looks like a car tire.  ;D

I believe it was used as a spare on Dennyʻs Go-Cart

I don't think it could have been a go-cart tire, don't ypou see how bad it's shredding? 
It's much more likely to have seen drag strip use, possibly on the Beach Boys/ Smothers brothers car...

More like what the tapes looks liked after Jack Rieley monkey'd with Smile.

Or, yeah, a drag strip.  ::)

I hope nobody minds but I've emailed the pic to "Positraction" Pete, who worked in a number of LA repair shops in the early to mid 1960s. There's just a chance that he worked on one of Denny's recreational vehicular transportation modules and might remember fitting this tyre.

That, or the box, which doesn't quite strike me as a standard tyre box from that era.

Judging by the other tyre boxes in the background, I'm beginning to wonder if someone might have rigged up a mock garage store room to fake a photograph that would throw us Tread Heads into spasms of incredulity.




Edit: Oooops, almost forgot:   ;D

Scotch 201

Side question: in that photo (not this photo, or that other photo) of the spines of the tape boxes, what's 'Endless Sleep'?

A track Brian produced for Larry Denton, 2/18/64 at Gold Star. Why is it in the middle of a row of Smile tapes ?  The answer is as odd as it is unlikely: said tape boxes were at Mark's studio during the prep for the 1993 box set, and someone had the bright idea of taking a photo of a bunch of Smile tapes for the booklet, so they scooped the boxes from the floor. Unfortunately, a couple of earlier boxes got included, hence the presence of "Endless Sleep" and that well-known Smile outtake, "Sacremento Remote".  :)

Grazie mille, Andreo. You da uomo.

Given the stack of unlikelies that domino to explain that pic, how improbable might the similar conditions be for the subject of this thread? Anything up to and including 'the shelves evolved the tapes naturally through the action of the rain and the wind' might seem plausible.

What is the origin of this image?  Legit?

[attachment deleted by admin]

It looks like a legitimate "Image Hosted by Tripod" image.

Hmm, it was working before.  Fixed it anyway.

30 Yrs Good Vibrations box booklet.

[Sigh]

That's the photo we were just discussing.  ???

Yeah, that makes sense now. :thud

Never seen the box set booklet.  I only own the the cd with the Smile tracks.  Thanks guys.

The idea of using those big reels as tires and racing stripes is funny and all, but it also makes me kind of sick to think about it.  :lol

Buuuump… we all got excited by this thread but Ed's not commented for a while – I was wondering, Ed, whether anyone might have made direct contact with you and provided an answer to the mystery of your photo in the meantime?

They did, and found a third section of "Surf's Up"

It'll be included in the bonus disc on itunes.

(http://www.sideshowcollectors.com/forums/images/smilies/chicklil.gif)(http://www.sideshowcollectors.com/forums/images/smilies/chicklil.gif)(http://www.sideshowcollectors.com/forums/images/smilies/chicklil.gif)

I live in St Paul. In the 70s I knew a friend of the BB who had a monster basement sound system that I sold him along with a dude named Bob Rolle. I'll try to contact the friend  and post more depending on his privacy concerns.

You sold him a sound system along with Bob Rolle?...I wonder how Bob's parents felt about that?  ;)

Seriously though, it would be great to finally have this mystery solved.

How did you find this place, much less this old thread?

Welcome to the forum!  :)

Hello, can anyone please re-upload the two images of the mysterious tapes library? I once owned both on my old pc and I lost them. Plus, on the net they are not available anywhere!
Thanks in advance