"Heroes and VIllains, Part 2":Does it, or did it ever exist?

[buddhahat]

OR (and I like this reason better) he pulled it to go with Great Shape/Barnyard as another section - a bridge between the two parts maybe.

This was my assumption for why Brian may have removed Swedish Frog, although the Boys' objections to it is equally valid. Great Shape + Swedish Frog + Barnyard would've made for an excellent track and works perfectly if you use the version of GS with the tape explosion: Mark and Alan, if you're browsing, you could do worse than this for a Great Shape mix! 

[Cam Mott]

I guess I'm not expressing myself well enough, I thought I was making it pretty clear all along we are talking about best evidence and not certainty.

There is physical evidence for it, the recordings and session documentation for a separate master recording of H&V Part 2. That does not seem to be as significant to many as I think it is. To me that is extremely strong evidence just by itself for the existence, let alone the narrative evidence from two independent witnesses.

Much better evidence then there is for a Surfs Up Part 2 for instance imo. 

Endless speculation is the reason we are here isn't it. 

[The Shift]

Well, perhaps it is, perhaps it isn't… then again why are ANY of us here, and why, and what comes after…?

FWIW, I'm a H&V Pt 2 believer.

But I'm not a SU Pt 2 believer.

And I don't mind at all if the new set proves me wrong on both counts!

[ESQ Editor]

"Heroes and Villains" is really an epic tale.

http://www.examiner.com/beach-boys-in-national/smile

[Rocker]

"Heroes and Villains" is really an epic tale.

http://www.examiner.com/beach-boys-in-national/smile

That's a great little article ! Why haven't I seen it before? And more important: When will the next part be up ? Are these new interviews?

[Andrew G. Doe]

Truth be told, we cannot conclusively say that there would have been a "part 2" as its own track; we also can't say there wouldn't have been. Remember, Brian was constantly changing his mind back and forth...and even if there was an actual "part 2" mastered, acetated, announced by Britz during recording sessions, etc., that doesn't mean anything, when you consider:

1) how many people don't think "Our Prayer" is an intro, despite that Brian actually said during the recording sessions/rehearsals, "This is 'intro to the album,' take 1."

Michael Vosse, apparently. 

[Mahalo]

I didn't know that "Bicycle Rider" referred to the playing cards of the Old West...

[Runaways]

i see it as just another playful wordplay that are all over the smile lyrics. 

[A Million Units In Jan!]

I didn't know that "Bicycle Rider" referred to the playing cards of the Old West...

I think that Van Dyke says that in the last Priore book that came out about SMiLE.

[ESQ Editor]

I didn't know that "Bicycle Rider" referred to the playing cards of the Old West...

I think that Van Dyke says that in the last Priore book that came out about SMiLE.

It absolutely did. In the two-part interview that I conducted with Van Dyke in 2004-2005 we discussed almost everything that he and Brian envisioned and discussed about the history of America and the story they were trying to tell. Check out this link: http://www.esquarterly.com/merchandise.html#smile2004smile1967

[Bubba Ho-Tep]

Truth be told, we cannot conclusively say that there would have been a "part 2" as its own track; we also can't say there wouldn't have been. Remember, Brian was constantly changing his mind back and forth...and even if there was an actual "part 2" mastered, acetated, announced by Britz during recording sessions, etc., that doesn't mean anything, when you consider:

1) how many people don't think "Our Prayer" is an intro, despite that Brian actually said during the recording sessions/rehearsals, "This is 'intro to the album,' take 1."

Michael Vosse, apparently. 

I think Prayer was intro AND outro. There's that edited version of Prayer with one refrain missing. My hypothesis is that it would have been used at the end, not unlike what was done on BWPS.

[XY]

“I’m doing the final mix on the A-side tonight, but I can’t decide what to do on the other side. The easiest thing would be to pull something off ‘Pet Sounds’, but I feel that that would be cheating the record-buyer. On the other hand, I want to keep as much of ‘Smile’ a surprise as possible. I may end up just recording me and a piano-I tried it last night in the studio. It would be an interesting contrast, anyway.”

That's what Brian told in February 1967.

[Dunderhead]

I didn't know that "Bicycle Rider" referred to the playing cards of the Old West...

It doesn't. Bicycle Rider is just some dude riding on a bike, nothing more, nothing less. 

[XY]

I guess people often forget that Brian talked quite a bit about SMiLE in 66/67. There's the H&V single quote above from February 1967. So at this point, there was no Part 2 supposed to be on a single. I know, most sessions for Part 2 took place later.

And this interesting statment from as early as late October 1966:

The song (H&V) is going to be a three-minute musical comedy. I'm using some new production techniques that I think will surprise everyone. This LP will include 'Good Vibrations' and 'Heroes And Villains' and ten other tracks, I've written them all in collaboration Van Dyke Parks. The album will include lots of humour - some musical and some spoken. It won't be like a comedy LP - there won't be any spoken tracks as such - but someone might say something in between verses."

Ok, GV was part of SMiLE, a 12 track album.

[buddhahat]

I guess people often forget that Brian talked quite a bit about SMiLE in 66/67. There's the H&V single quote above from February 1967. So at this point, there was no Part 2 supposed to be on a single. I know, most sessions for Part 2 took place later.

And this interesting statment from as early as late October 1966:

The song (H&V) is going to be a three-minute musical comedy. I'm using some new production techniques that I think will surprise everyone. This LP will include 'Good Vibrations' and 'Heroes And Villains' and ten other tracks, I've written them all in collaboration Van Dyke Parks. The album will include lots of humour - some musical and some spoken. It won't be like a comedy LP - there won't be any spoken tracks as such - but someone might say something in between verses."

Ok, GV was part of SMiLE, a 12 track album.

At the time Our Prayer was an opener, I bet it would've been followed by GV!

“I’m doing the final mix on the A-side tonight, but I can’t decide what to do on the other side. The easiest thing would be to pull something off ‘Pet Sounds’, but I feel that that would be cheating the record-buyer. On the other hand, I want to keep as much of ‘Smile’ a surprise as possible. I may end up just recording me and a piano-I tried it last night in the studio. It would be an interesting contrast, anyway.”

That's what Brian told in February 1967.

Any session correspond with "I may end up just recording me and a piano-I tried it last night in the studio"? What might this have been?

[XY]

Any session correspond with "I may end up just recording me and a piano-I tried it last night in the studio"? What might this have been?

That's the question. "Surf's Up" comes to mind, but that was recorded mid December 1966 of course.

Speculation what that other 10 tracks beside GV + HV were and if Brian really wrote them all in collaboration with Van Dyke Parks. I mean, "Prayer" was wordless and "Holidays" for example didn't have lyrics.
I try:

1. H&V, 2. GV, 3. Wind Chimes, 4. Wonderful, 5. Surf's Up, 6. Home On The Range, 7. Child Is Father To The Man, 8. I Ran, 9. Do You Like Worms?, 10. He Gives Speeches

[hypehat]

]

Any session correspond with "I may end up just recording me and a piano-I tried it last night in the studio"? What might this have been?

'All Day'?

[Rocker]

Any session correspond with "I may end up just recording me and a piano-I tried it last night in the studio"? What might this have been?

Doesn't mean he ever did it. I don't take that sentence wordly, he probably just wanted to say, that he hasn't a plan what will be the b-side

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Speculation what that other 10 tracks beside GV + HV were and if Brian really wrote them all in collaboration with Van Dyke Parks. I mean, "Prayer" was wordless and "Holidays" for example didn't have lyrics.

Well, I don't think he necessarily means exactly what he says. He could have easily said of Pet Sounds, that "I wrote all the songs with Tony Asher" when several of the songs weren't written by Asher at all. I think he may be talking in short hand.

That being said, I think there's every reason to believe that the 12 songs he refers to here are probably the same 12 songs that are on the Capitol list, and nine of them would have been credited to VDP, which makes one more track than what Asher is credited for on PS.

[ash]

The following was quoted on the Hoffman board from a 1974 nme interview with Bruce
"You know, I've got all these tapes up at my house. A seven minute version of “Heroes and Villains”, a lot of things from Smile. Not “Elementals” – that's better off not being heard, if you understand me. And I never play them to anybody, it never occurs to me."

Hopefully this is what Bruce still has and has handed over (I'm assuming he has or will). Personally as well as upgraded sound quality for the tracks we already have,  i'm really hoping for the feb/march long Heroes (which i assume is Bruce's acetate) and one pre cantina version perhaps with i'm in great shape and barnyard included. Maybe even a version between shape/barnyard and cantina (early january version ?) which may be the one Vosse referred to as recorded but not edited together in the Fusion piece. I don't think we've really had the killer version of heroes yet. I'll take a chance and suggest the long version is the one and we'll all get our minds blown and have world peace.

Does Brian have a personal tape/acetate archive ?  Did he give taped home  demos to van dyke to work from or did he record the tracks in the studio and then cut him acetates ? I hope there's been some movement in the Durrie Parks collection situation. It will be a desperate shame if they don't check out all possibilities although i'm confident Alan and Mark will do their best.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Bruce's attitude towards Smile has always bothered me. He seems even more patronizing than Mike about the music.

Elementals.

[Bicyclerider]

]

Any session correspond with "I may end up just recording me and a piano-I tried it last night in the studio"? What might this have been?

'All Day'?

Time wise "Little Red Book" seemed to fit - purportedly recorded mid February - but hasn't Andrew said that alan's tape search identified this as Friends era?  It does have bass on it as well as piano.

Just Brian and a piano - what about the piano only Bicycle Rider theme?