Heroes or Villains?

[b00ts]

I don't know about Jack, Landy was obviously a Villian, drugging and defrauding a mentally ill man is pretty villianous behaviour.

Murry was a Hero.  He did a lot of bad things but in the end he was Brian's father.  Even the totality of Murry's abusive behavior wasn't enough to erase the goodwill/inspiration/love that simply being a father to Brian provided.... even if it was only by default.   

Ron? Do you have kids?

No hero would abuse his children. Period.

Wirestone?  Do you have a father?

No father would be a Villian to me.  Period.

Being "a father" gets nobody any points.  There is no role in life for a man that puts him closer to being an absolute unredeemabel f-up "just by default" than being a father.  You have to actually succeed in that role for it to mean anything.

Being a father means you have unlimited power to completely screw somebody's life up forever just by failing or being absent, but if you take it even farther and actually knock them around physically or undermine their development emotionally or both, I think you go way past forfeiting any goodwill for the job you're doing.

I cannot imagine the kind of blinders it takes to look at a destructive narcissist like Murry through rose colored glasses, especially if you're not even related to him.

A+. You are right on the money, and we could all give the troll examples of fathers who are decidedly not heroes, but the troll will continue to argue its trollish point. Best thing to do is ignore it.

[Magic Transistor Radio]

Murry - I often wonder what level of abuse was handed to his kids. Some say this is a black and white issue. I disagree. I don't believe that spanking a kid is child abuse. I was spanked when I deserved it. It was not child abuse, and my parents never did it out of anger. Plus this was a different time. Perhaps he crossed the line a little bit, perhaps a lot. I don't know. Perhaps he would verbally abuse them as well. I would like to point out that he fought hard for his sons to get them signed. I wonder if the BBs would have been treated the same by Capitol after Pet Sounds if Murry was still manager to take up for them.

Jack - Personally, he is my favorite 'manager' in terms of pushing the BBs into an artistic direction. He got the best out of them during that time I think. There also seem to be some negative things about him that got him fired.

Landy - AGD has a good point. He can't be a hero at all because of how it ended up. I think he used Brian for his own ends, so he made him look healthy and gave him mind control drugs to keep control long after his work was done. He should have let Brian go in 85. Had he done that, then I would say he is a hero. But he didn't. He probably would've done the same thing the first time around had he not been fired.

[MBE]

Murry did awful things but he did push for the group when they needed it. I don't condone Murry but I understand Murry after reading Tim White's book and learning about his truly evil dad. Murry was a jerk but getting to know Fred Vail and The Sunrays' for my book does throw new light on him. Also we know he was sick but Mike Love (who openly hates him) has said that some of the stories were not completely true. Close to a villain but with one or two heroic qualites that's my take on him. See Joe Jackson and The Jackson 5. About the same where Michael and Marlon said he was terrible but Jermaine defends him. Carl always stuck up for Murry where Brian and Dennis were a lot more open or had a different POV.

Jack did some dishonest and plain creepy things. Like Murry he did help them when they needed him, like Murry he stole from them. Maybe not as plain sick as Murry but obviously not someone to trust with your bank book. I don't know if I would call him a villain. I like his work but not the man so much.

Landy wasn't good either time as he never let Brian really recover before he was back in the studio, back on stage, and giving interviews. That Landy himself even in 1976 was doing press tells you all you need to know. He may be the only true villain in the whole story. Or at least complete villain.

[Myk Luhv]

It's not really surprising The Beach Boys were enamoured with a hustler, no matter how much Reiley probably did like them -- I just wish it could've been one who lied a little better and had more lyrical acumen!

[Disney Boy (1985)]

Rieley's lyric's are great!

[Wirestone]

Murry - I often wonder what level of abuse was handed to his kids. Some say this is a black and white issue. I disagree. I don't believe that spanking a kid is child abuse. I was spanked when I deserved it. It was not child abuse, and my parents never did it out of anger. Plus this was a different time. Perhaps he crossed the line a little bit, perhaps a lot. I don't know. Perhaps he would verbally abuse them as well. I would like to point out that he fought hard for his sons to get them signed. I wonder if the BBs would have been treated the same by Capitol after Pet Sounds if Murry was still manager to take up for them.

I think it is generally accepted that Murry did a lot more than just spank his kids. And that he was not someone who worked or disciplined in an atmosphere of calmness.

[b00ts]

Murry - I often wonder what level of abuse was handed to his kids. Some say this is a black and white issue. I disagree. I don't believe that spanking a kid is child abuse. I was spanked when I deserved it. It was not child abuse, and my parents never did it out of anger. Plus this was a different time. Perhaps he crossed the line a little bit, perhaps a lot. I don't know. Perhaps he would verbally abuse them as well. I would like to point out that he fought hard for his sons to get them signed. I wonder if the BBs would have been treated the same by Capitol after Pet Sounds if Murry was still manager to take up for them.

I think it is generally accepted that Murry did a lot more than just spank his kids. And that he was not someone who worked or disciplined in an atmosphere of calmness.

Yes, he was a child abuser - both physically and mentally. Spaking your children is one thing; tormenting them and causing them to live in fear of you is quite another. Murry was a world-class asshole. Sure, he was not "evil..." evil is not a concept that really holds much weight in the real world. People are varying shades of selfish, altruistic, etc. Murry was clearly a frustrated composer and vicariously lived out his dreams through his sons, and a side effect of this was the Beach Boys' enormous success.

It hurts to imagine Brian's life if Murry hadn't been such a huge asshole. Maybe he would not be famous, maybe we would not have all this great music... But he wouldn't have his father's voice yelling at him onstage almost forty years after tge man died. Murry caused an incredible amount of damage to Brian.

[anazgnos]

I see Rieley as somebody who basically started from the position of being a fan who was frustrated with the band, and who somehow clawed his way into a position of influence, to where he got to kind of impose his own vision of the group on the group itself.  There have always been so many competing ideas of what the Beach Boys actually are: artistic vs. commercial, Brian's baby vs. communal effort, etc, and these go on both within the band and among the fan community.  So you see people who have ended up in the inner circles, but who are still acting on their sensibilities as fans: Foskett obviously has his own ideas of how Brian should be presented, and the Wondermints guys as well, and they come from the perspective of being fans.  Rieley was kind of the start of all that interplay.

[hypehat]

Where did the 'Reiley lied about having cancer' story originate from? Sounds like The Royal Tenenbaums made real...

1977 or thereabouts. He also lied about working for NBC in Puerto Rico and winning both a Peabody Award and a Pulitzer Prize. He also produced a personal letter from Bobby Kennedy welcoming Ricky to the USA when he was having some difficulties with the immigration people. Bobby Kennedy was killed in 1968.

That is amazing 

[FatherOfTheMan Sr101]

Landy = Villian.

I don't care how he saved Brian, he could have just fixed him and let go, but he was GREEDY.

[Rocky Raccoon]

Murry and Landy both had redeeming qualities but all villains do and they both loved the men they destroyed but they did destroy them.  And by the end, I do believe Landy was trying to slowly kill Brian.  He wanted to give him a comeback so that when he died, he'd be a martyr which would start up a ton of record sales (like Lennon with Double Fantasy), money that would have certainly gone Landy's way plus all of the will money.

I believe that Jack Rieley was one of the most creative minds in the Beach Boys story outside of the band.  He was very smart and he brought out the best in Carl Wilson and brought out the best in the band as a whole.  I mean think about it.  Once he left, we got 15 Big Ones.

[hypehat]

Yeah, Landy didn't love Brian. He loved Brian's bank balance

[Sound of Free]

Landy is scum. they've could've gotten another doctor.

When the Beach Boys and Marilyn got Brian away from Landy the first time, they recognized he needed another psychiatrist and sent him to Dr. Steve Schwartz. Wasn't Brian doing pretty well in his brief time with Dr. Schwartz until the doctor died while rock climbing?

I think that's one of the great what-ifs of Brian and the Beach Boys. If Dr. Schwartz hadn't died, would Brian have avoided the backslide that led to the second, destructive tenure with Landy?

[Magic Transistor Radio]

John Stamos hero or villain?

[lee]

John Stamos hero or villain?

ha!

[Andrew G. Doe]

John Stamos hero or villain?

Asshole.

[Magic Transistor Radio]

John Stamos hero or villain?

Asshole.

I assume you are referring to John Stamos and not the one who posted the question.

[drbeachboy]

He couldn't possibly be referring to you. There aren't (M)any assholes in this place.

[Andrew G. Doe]

John Stamos hero or villain?

Asshole.

I assume you are referring to John Stamos and not the one who posted the question.

Indeed.