Does Brian Wilson deserve enshrinement in the RNR HOF as a producer?

[JohnMill]

I'm sure this has been discussed already but the title basically says it all.  Obviously in 1988 he was inducted along with the rest of the boys as performers but being that Brian Wilson was a complete artist in terms of performing, composing and especially producing and arranging he probably deserves enshrinement as a producer as well. 

Thoughts?

[Jason]

The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame is a joke.

[Jay]

Hell yes he does! As well as Dennis. I agree with Real Beach Boy though. The Hall of Fame has become a joke. Three Dog Night, Steppenwolf and Chicago have not been inducted. But Run DMC have. 

[Exapno Mapcase]

Yes.

[runnersdialzero]

Hell yes he does! As well as Dennis. I agree with Real Beach Boy though. The Hall of Fame has become a joke. Three Dog Night, Steppenwolf and Chicago have not been inducted. But Run DMC have. 

Run DMC? Of all the artists on there to roll your eyes at, you're gonna choose Run DMC?

JEEEEEEEEEEZEM JAYEM.

[positivemusic]

Hell yes he does! As well as Dennis. I agree with Real Beach Boy though. The Hall of Fame has become a joke. Three Dog Night, Steppenwolf and Chicago have not been inducted. But Run DMC have. 

I agree with all the above and (though many would disagree) feel they have wrongfully snubbed Jan & Dean as well.

[The Shift]

Hell yes he does! As well as Dennis. I agree with Real Beach Boy though. The Hall of Fame has become a joke. Three Dog Night, Steppenwolf and Chicago have not been inducted. But Run DMC have. 

I agree with all the above and (though many would disagree) feel they have wrongfully snubbed Jan & Dean as well.

It's all so personal though, ain't it. I wouldn't have admitted J&D but I would admit John Martyn, Dennis Wilson ( as a solo performer), Jethro Tull, Darts, The Wombles, Dan Arborise…   I mean, are they nominated on chart success, artistic merit, popularity, on having changed the face of music, or on how much their promoters stump up to sway the judges?

[Rocker]

As producer for the Beach Boys and an influence he surely deserves it. But outside of the BBs he had no success. So first, I'd like to see Jan & Dean being included and Jan Berry as a producer as he had some impressive succes as an outside producer

[Jay]

Hell yes he does! As well as Dennis. I agree with Real Beach Boy though. The Hall of Fame has become a joke. Three Dog Night, Steppenwolf and Chicago have not been inducted. But Run DMC have. 

Run DMC? Of all the artists on there to roll your eyes at, you're gonna choose Run DMC?

JEEEEEEEEEEZEM JAYEM.

You totally missed the point of my post. Why would I roll my eyes at TDN, Steppenwolf or Chicago? Those are all great bands, and deserve to be inducted. Are you saying that Run DMC is a great group that deserves to be recognised along with the other groups listed?

[JohnMill]

Hell yes he does! As well as Dennis. I agree with Real Beach Boy though. The Hall of Fame has become a joke. Three Dog Night, Steppenwolf and Chicago have not been inducted. But Run DMC have. 

Run DMC? Of all the artists on there to roll your eyes at, you're gonna choose Run DMC?

JEEEEEEEEEEZEM JAYEM.

Are you saying that Run DMC is a great group that deserves to be recognised along with the other groups listed?

I'm not a fan but they are generally credited as the founding fathers of rap.  Now whether that is enough to merit enshrinement or not is obviously subjective but my guess is that is largely the reason they are in there.

[positivemusic]

Hell yes he does! As well as Dennis. I agree with Real Beach Boy though. The Hall of Fame has become a joke. Three Dog Night, Steppenwolf and Chicago have not been inducted. But Run DMC have. 

I agree with all the above and (though many would disagree) feel they have wrongfully snubbed Jan & Dean as well.

It's all so personal though, ain't it. I wouldn't have admitted J&D but I would admit John Martyn, Dennis Wilson ( as a solo performer), Jethro Tull, Darts, The Wombles, Dan Arborise…   I mean, are they nominated on chart success, artistic merit, popularity, on having changed the face of music, or on how much their promoters stump up to sway the judges?

I think that's part of the problem, that those being inducted aren't based on merit, generally, at least.

To me, Jan Berry was an amazing producer, arranger, and songwriter. It might be easier to make the case for him as a producer, than "Jan & Dean" as a band. I would disagree, but I think the common complaints are valid.

- One of their biggest hits, "Sidewalk Surfin'" was a Beach Boys' rewrite (with a brilliant arrangement, though)
- Many of their songs were featured on multiple albums
- Some backing tracks were "given" to them by other artists ("Summer Means Fun," "Eve Of Destruction," etc.)
- Dean, one half of the duo by name, not being present on many album cuts and singles - by extension, "Move Out Little Mustang" being presented          as by Jan & Dean when in fact, neither were on it.

I understand all of those above and I can see how they would sway a vote against. However, I still feel that a big reason for some, not saying it is the case here(!), not seeing them fit for induction is the misconception that they were handed their hits by Brian. Yes, he co-wrote about half, but it was Jan's arrangements that ultimately brought them to life. Brian has stated time and time again that he learned much from Jan as an arranger and producer. And in turn, Jan learned much to with songwriting and harmony structures. In my opinion, the two were geniuses that complimented and enhanced the other.

Given just the chart success of songs released as by "Jan & Dean," it amazes me that they continue to be overlooked by the organization. And their resurgence in the 70's proves they made a lasting impact.

Not meaning to turn this thread into a debate over Jan & Dean, but I always feel compelled to defend them in place of many Beach Boys' fans who won't.

I agree with all your choices for induction, though. Excellent selection!

I'm not so sure I agree with Run DMC being in the "Rock and Roll Hall Of Fame." As innovative as they were, hip hop/rap is not rock and roll. If there were some type of general music innovators hall of fame or something their inclusion might sit a bit better with me.

[Myk Luhv]

I mean, why are there blues musicians in the RNRHOF anyway? Robert Johnson didn't play no rock and roll!

[hypehat]

This thread is insane.

[guitarfool2002]

Two words: Jann Wenner. He's probably the main reason why Chicago isn't in the HOF, as he has carried a grudge against them for comments made in the 70's. No joke.

Also do some searching on how Wenner apparently got Grandmaster Flash inducted over the Dave Clark 5, who had more votes that year but those votes meant nothing after Wenner overruled them and put Flash in the Hall that year over DC5, who actually won in the balloting process.

This is true stuff. Your "history of rock" has to be read between the lines because the inner politics of it all can really turn a good thing ugly, real fast.

[SMiLE Brian]

Two words: Jann Wenner. He's probably the main reason why Chicago isn't in the HOF, as he has carried a grudge against them for comments made in the 70's. No joke.

Also do some searching on how Wenner apparently got Grandmaster Flash inducted over the Dave Clark 5, who had more votes that year but those votes meant nothing after Wenner overruled them and put Flash in the Hall that year over DC5, who actually won in the balloting process.

This is true stuff. Your "history of rock" has to be read between the lines because the inner politics of it all can really turn a good thing ugly, real fast.

Jann really hates progressive bands and won't let the Moody Blues in. Not letting ELO in is nuts because Jeff Lynne was cranking out hits like crazy in the mid 1970s.  Three Dog Night not being in is weird as well.

[guitarfool2002]

Two words: Jann Wenner. He's probably the main reason why Chicago isn't in the HOF, as he has carried a grudge against them for comments made in the 70's. No joke.

Also do some searching on how Wenner apparently got Grandmaster Flash inducted over the Dave Clark 5, who had more votes that year but those votes meant nothing after Wenner overruled them and put Flash in the Hall that year over DC5, who actually won in the balloting process.

This is true stuff. Your "history of rock" has to be read between the lines because the inner politics of it all can really turn a good thing ugly, real fast.

Jann really hates progressive bands and won't let the Moody Blues in. Not letting ELO in is nuts because Jeff Lynne was cranking out hits like crazy in the mid 1970s.  Three Dog Night not being in is weird as well.

It's not even about the music or the style of music with the Moody Blues - apparently they, like Chicago, also had a "feud" with Wenner and/or his associates and that axe is still being ground enough to influence their inclusion in the HOF.

Look to the politics of it all rather than the music, and Wenner is perhaps the key figure in the reasons why a lot of bands either are or aren't in the HOF. I don't think I'm alone in thinking that way.

The whole thing stinks, IMO. Honestly, and I mean 100% honestly, I see no reason why The Monkees aren't in the HOF either. It's clearly not about the music, as we can all list bands or artists who *should* be in there. And the Dave Clark 5 example is just one that got reported.

[Emdeeh]

Back to the original question -- maybe eventually, but not any time soon.

I am opposed to re-inducting people who are already in the Rock'n'Roll Hall of Fame, no matter what category and circumstances, until the huge backlog of others who haven't been inducted yet gets cleared up. They go in first; multiple-time inductees can wait (and wait).

[anazgnos]

This level of granularity of recognition seems unnecessary.  He pretty much only produced hits with the Beach Boys, they've already been inducted, there's no sense in which he hasn't already been granted a full measure of recognition by this admitted sham organization.  What's next, inducting him for his falsetto, or cool haircut?

[JohnMill]

This level of granularity of recognition seems unnecessary.  He pretty much only produced hits with the Beach Boys, they've already been inducted, there's no sense in which he hasn't already been granted a full measure of recognition by this admitted sham organization.  What's next, inducting him for his falsetto, or cool haircut?

That being said he is often put on the level as one of the finest producers of the era alongside names like Phil Spector and George Martin.  That alone should merit some consideration. 

[The Heartical Don]

The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame is a joke.

Completely agree. It is opposed to the core ideas of R and R. It is a blownup, bloated phenomenon, that does wonderfully fit the corporate capitalist identity that the magazine Rollling Stone has assumed. Dinner parties, big cars, the lot.

I would not go in there if I got paid for it.

Luckily, the number of artists available for inducton will out of necessity decline - there aren't that many top level musicians, the pool always was thin.

So, around 2020, the induction of James Last, Stars On 45, and Liberace will seal its fate. Good riddance.

[The Shift]

So, around 2020, the induction of James Last, Stars On 45, and Liberace will seal its fate. Good riddance.

 

[guitarfool2002]

Completely agree. It is opposed to the core ideas of R and R. It is a blownup, bloated phenomenon, that does wonderfully fit the corporate capitalist identity that the magazine Rollling Stone has assumed. Dinner parties, big cars, the lot.

Blame Jann Wenner.

[Aegir]

why do we need public validation anyway?