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639068 Posts in 25538 Topics by 3626 Members - Latest Member: Julia October 23, 2018, 10:28:46 PM
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1  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Pro Shot Beach Boys Concerts on: Today at 01:17:00 PM
Here's some alternate footage of the Beach Boys at the White House in 1983:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJyjszg_PJs

Thanks for sharing that link. Some of that footage of Denny is heartbreaking.
2  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Thread for various insignificant questions that don't deserve their own thread! on: Yesterday at 09:18:37 PM
There's a Toyota TV commercial that uses "You Are So Beautiful." Not Dennis' version or anything, but at least it's Dennis' song.

I cannot imagine how much $$ Denny's estate is rightfully due for stuff like this.
3  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Pet Sounds-ish Songs by Brian & Other BBs on: October 19, 2018, 01:47:32 PM
Denny's "Be With Me" would definitely qualify.

I could actually see that song as being on the album Pet Sounds.
4  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: What Happens on the M&B Tour..... on: October 18, 2018, 12:35:30 PM
LOL

Or Wrinkles!

Or Crescent Moon! (like shooting fish in a barrel)  LOL
5  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: What Happens on the M&B Tour..... on: October 18, 2018, 12:29:04 PM
Gives new subtext meaning to Cool Head, Warm Heart
6  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: What Happens on the M&B Tour..... on: October 18, 2018, 09:47:50 AM
I'm wondering if that "What could possibly go wrong" handwriting on the wooden vertical beam was written before or after this room became Teabagging Central?  Grin
7  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Beach Boys Easter Seals Show 1979 on: October 17, 2018, 05:37:52 PM
Sorry, I still can't get over that Klugman screenshot LOL
 
Got to Know the Klugman
I'm Bugged at My Ol' Klugman"
The Klugman With All The Boys
Is Jack Klugman Superman?
Feel The Pull (The Klug of Love)
8  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Beach Boys Easter Seals Show 1979 on: October 17, 2018, 11:28:04 AM
Random observation: Jack Klugman doesn't seem to have liked Good Timin.  LOL



The Klug-ster probably would have scowled a little less if Carl had done the lead  LOL

Side note: It almost looks like they stole the set of The Price is Right for this telethon.
9  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Beach Boys Easter Seals Show 1979 on: October 15, 2018, 06:37:41 PM
This is where a bunch of those epic "Brian as Gotham Detective Harvey Bullock" pics came from:




Love that '79 yellow Pinto in the background.
10  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Beach Boys Easter Seals Show 1979 on: October 15, 2018, 03:03:14 PM
It made the rounds for years on VHS, etc. I have it buried away somewhere on VHS. I think this was up on YouTube YEARS ago, but not for a long time.

Nice to see it back up. Maybe someday someone will have an explanation for why Mike was saddled with singing "Good Timin'" with Carl standing right there in perfect voice. An explanation other than "why not?"

A few thoughts...

The song is just not the same with Mike singing it. It's just really not. Interesting curio, nonetheless.

Watching late '70s Mike sing the lyric "celebration" makes me wonder if his side project band name and this lyric had any influence on each other.

I could do without the Mike planet orbiting hand miming during "the Earth keeps turning" lyric. Really I could. Not that it's unexpected, just as unnecessary as the hand-mimed gunshot during the "assassinations" lyric his live performance of "Looking Back with Love". Mike must be killer at charades though with all the miming experience.

11  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Mike Love is in the white house on: October 12, 2018, 11:33:09 AM
Is it just me, or does Mike seem slightly giddily star-struck and in awe of Trump, almost how Brian might be of Phil Spector?

I just had a reallllly weird image/sound cross my mind, of Mike taking the place of Marilyn Monroe, serenading Trump with a "Whennnnn.... Happy Birthday, Mr. President" song.

12  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Mike Love is in the white house on: October 11, 2018, 05:13:08 PM
I dislike Donald Trump very much to say the least, but I certainly won't say this particular law seems like anything but a good thing. If a Democratic president had signed this bill, I imagine most citizen Democrats would applaud that president for doing so.

That said, it's super duper weird to see Mike Love (or any celeb who isn't a politician) standing and speaking at a podium with the US Presidential seal. It's very, very surreal.
13  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: FINALLY ! . . . . . . Part Two (suspended) on: October 09, 2018, 07:45:38 PM
The truth is, if there were fairness in this world, Mr. Desper would be as well-known and universally respected as Geoff Emerick. Truth.

I cannot wait to see the latest Study Video when it is re-uploaded (crossing fingers!)

Tue story: Prior to it being taken down, I had already made plans to watch the video with a dear out-of-town friend (who is a fellow BBs fanatic of the '67-'73 era) who's coming into town to visit (we had planned to watch the latest study video this coming weekend together).  

I'm sure I speak for many, many others when I say how grateful I am for Stephen contributing his time and efforts to make them.
It's literally the best stuff on Earth. 
14  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: FINALLY ! . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Part Two on: October 06, 2018, 04:02:43 PM
Fourthed.

I really enjoyed reading about how recording works in analog, as well as hearing the audio goodies.

Fifthed.  I am extraordinarily grateful for Stephen's efforts in presenting these videos to us.
15  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Stories of how previously-lost BBs songs were discovered in the vaults? on: October 05, 2018, 10:03:17 AM
It's always amazing to learn about a new previously-unknown BBs song mix/version that comes to surface.

I'm curious to hear about stories involving the discovery of such mixes by those who had access to the vaults.

For example, I had no idea there was a version of Denny singing All I Want to Do, which apparently (?) will be coming out in a 1968 Copyright extension release. Was this version known about for years to researchers, but just finally discovered on some dusty, mislabeled tape box?

I feel like there must be dozens of interesting stories to tell about many, many such songs.
16  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: FINALLY ! . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Part Two on: October 05, 2018, 09:59:10 AM
Cannot wait to devour these.

Thank you again SO much, Stephen.

Out of curiosity, how much of the BBs' studio catalog had you personally listened to before you started working with them? I wonder how much of a revelation their talent was when you started working with them, or if that was something you already were familiar with.
17  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: RIP the real Peggy Sue :( on: October 02, 2018, 04:10:16 PM
Folks, this must be in General Music Discussion. Moderators, move it to it.

How about no? "Peggy Sue" is a Beach Boys song too...  Roll Eyes

Right. The very 1st thing I thought about when hearing the news was Al Jardine singing Peggy Sue.
Then I went and listened to the song yesterday on Spotify on my ride home from work.
A great version of the song it is.

Then I listened to Sweet Sunday Kind of Love, Bells of Paris, and Matchpoint of Our Love... Matchpoint is such a rad little disco/yacht rock tune, I friggin' love it, cheeseball lyrics or not. Carl slays on Sweet Sunday. Bells of Paris ain't too shabby either, again despite the hokey lyrics. I wish Mike had done more laid back and not forced-sounding mid/late period vocal leads like this one.

I wonder if the idea to cover Peggy Sue originated in the 15 Big Ones era?

I should add... how many songs in the Beach Boys cannon have song titles based on real people? Off the top of my head, Caroline No, Marilyn Rovell, My Diane, Judy (?), and probably a few others I can't recall.  Peggy might be one of the 1st Beach Boys song title namesakes to have left us  Cry
18  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / RIP the real Peggy Sue :( on: October 01, 2018, 06:15:33 PM
Sad.

http://www.lubbockonline.com/news/20181001/peggy-sue-gerron-inspiration-for-buddy-holly-song-dies-in-lubbock

Gonna have to bust out my copy of MIU today (which I still contend is somewhat underrated).
19  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Mike Love - \ on: October 01, 2018, 01:44:11 PM
Ah yeah, the Beach Boys.... when you have the opportunity to record new Brian Wilson compositions you rather go cover friggin' Hanson.

Ah yes, but Mike gets to be in charge! Obviously a factor that means more to Mike than the alternate scenario you've mentioned.
20  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Love and Mercy Sequel on: September 29, 2018, 05:00:47 PM
My daughter read this (she lurks here and actually does have an account but doesn't really post for obvious reasons) and afterwards told me that the only way to do it was to split it off from the 15 Big One years alternating through now...and I just can't picture that!

That would be amazing.

And a whole scene would have to take place at the recording sessions for Ding Dang  LOL
21  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Mike Love - \ on: September 29, 2018, 01:16:10 AM
The resemblance of "Finally, It's Christmas" to "The Spirit of Rock & Roll" is quite strong.

My coworker thinks "Finally, it's Christmas" sounds like the Waiting for Guffman "Stool Song":

https://youtu.be/Vsan7soCFsU
22  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Beach Boys studio disasters and screwups? on: September 25, 2018, 04:13:42 PM
I think, from what I understood from Brian, he wanted a place to get away and record what he wanted to do without being overruled.


If *anyone* deserved this (total creative control/freedom from agenda-driven bandmates/politics), it's Brian.  

That he had to go through all sorts of hoops to attain that freedom bugs me and should bug everyone too. It's beyond ridiculous the crap he had to go through and egos he had to put up with. Urgh.

</rant>

(thanks again Debbie for your amazing stories and recollections).

I have to say the story about Bruce and Terry at the time was that they gave Brian $50K to record, but the money was "found out" and removed from the account. I've heard other stories since. I have no idea which is true, particularly since I can't remember who told me this. Oh, well. I do remember Terry coming over to Brian's, and he couldn't stop smiling when he saw Brian. I think he really was in awe and adored Brian at that time, by his expression. That's why I feel a bit guilty when I talk about the production on SIP, but I can't help what it sounds like to me.

This has turned into a terrific discussion, thanks to all involved and thanks Debbie and Stephen especially for the firsthand memories!

We were discussing Jack Rieley in another recent thread, and it was good to get more information and perspective on the table, especially for newer fans reading this stuff who may have only heard *one* version of events, and perhaps had opinions shaped on people like Jack based on one perspective. We need to look at and weigh all sides. Whether it's Jack, or Terry Melcher, or the way Brian had to go elsewhere to record his ideas (seriously...add me to the chorus of those wondering WTF was going on within the band to cause this).

More on that to come. But discussing Terry brought up more of the story with him in particular. Debbie, I agree 100% that Terry in particular was very influenced by and in awe of what Brian could do even as early as when they first connected. You hear Terry during the Party! sessions, where he was already cutting hit records on his own as performer and producer, including one which has gone on to be one of the most important records of the modern era, Mr. Tambourine Man...as well as cutting sides for the Raiders, who people might not realize were one of the hottest bands in the US during the mid 60's and basically had their own network TV show.

Yet here was Terry happy to hit a tambourine at Brian's Party sessions, and who would appear in the studio to hang out and watch as Brian was making Pet Sounds and beyond. Yes, Terry was a big fan, no doubt, but you hit on the aspect that doesn't get said as much: Terry admired Brian and what he could do. No doubt.

What is lost too is how Terry would devote his career to his mom Doris Day and her various musical and TV/film projects instead of continuing to cut rock and roll records. Who knows how much more he would have done in the rock world had he not made the decision to work for his mom and build her career. And, doing so at a time when Doris Day was no stranger to the scandal sheets and Hollywood gossip, some of which was blatantly racist and unfair...again, topic of other discussions.

What Terry did with SIP, I feel, is do what he was hired to do. *Terry* was the one who got the band back on the charts in the 80's with Kokomo. It was Terry who produced California Dreamin and got Roger McGuinn in on the session to add some cool 12-string guitar to the track - It gave the Boys an AC hit when they couldn't buy one. It was also Terry who called Papa John Phillips and asked if he had any songs available for the Beach Boys to record, with what was yet another drought of songwriting within the band. Papa John sent Terry demos of Kokomo and Somewhere Near Japan, and obviously we know what happened to Kokomo. Major credit to Terry, despite some attempts to undercredit him in favor of other band members' involvement in that track.

SIP - Mike's baby through and through. That's not bashing, that's what it was. Let's recapture the winning Kokomo formula, and cut an entire album with this "new" sound. It was an ill-conceived attempt. Terry produced, yes - But read the credits in full. I have to think Terry was doing exactly what he was hired and told to do. The saying goes "you can't make chicken salad out of chicken sh*t".


The story of the "remote" studio and 4-track and Terry and Bruce's involvement in other ventures really makes you wonder about how things played out up to the present, and which loyalties carried over into the band's inner politics. Much more can be added to this aspect of the discussion, but I rambled enough already.

I just thought it was great to hear some more about Terry and Brian especially in this time period, and get more details and info on the table for fans to see how everything was not as cut and dry and clean-cut as other versions of events have tried to suggest.

Thanks so much, Craig, for expanding on Terry, whom I really liked a lot. He was very successful on his own, obviously. Thanks for noting the SIP credits. I feel certain he was doing what he was hired to do. It certainly wasn't his "sound."

It's funny when you mention the band's politics, in that when I was with Brian, he did everything to protect me from it all. His words were, "I want to keep you separate from all that." I didn't really understand, but it was fine with me. He knew I was innocent at the time - naive might be a better word. He may have seen his own innocence in my love of the music and people involved. He truly is a sweet soul with a certain "wicked" wit.

I think if Brian had his wish, he himself would have been separated from the band's politics and just made music. Can't say I blame him one bit. I'll never understand how a band that made such beautiful healing music can be surrounded by so much negative energy. But then I remember that it's a family band, and nobody can f*** someone over like family. Lord knows I've been there


Totally. And I'm having a hard time seeing Carl, Denny, or Al - however they might have had feelings about direction of the band's music that might have differed from Brian's - pulling any sort of longterm guilt tripping or other psychological warfare aimed at Brian that would have made Brian feel like he had to "get away and record what he wanted to do without being overruled"... in other words, I feel like when the term "band politics" is uttered in relation to The BBs, it's safe to say this in a nutshell means Brian's cousin. Remove Mike from the band in the late 60s/early 70s, I just don't see Brian having to resort to essentially sneaking around peoples' backs just to record stuff with having creative control. Maybe I'm offbase, this is just how it seems to me as an outsider. That said, I know things are nevertheless complex and nuanced.

"Complex and nuanced" might be the final word on this. People I loved and admired disappointed me, but then I disappoint myself a lot, so...

Clearly, Brian wasn't easy and his vision was probably difficult to follow, especially when he reached beyond everyone's comfort zone (including the fans, at times). I think there was panic when they had been flying high to find that not all the music was going to hit #1.  I'm sure everyone made bad decisions at different times, including the good guys who really loved Brian as they tried to hold it all together after Brian had become disenchanted by all the resistance. We all do our best. 

Imagine the band members trying to impress him with their solo efforts, after they denied him his own.

I saw it. It was sad.

I don't know that I could say Brian was bitter, but he - understandably - wasn't happy. He didn't say anything, at least when I was there, but he made his displeasure known with his expressions and his silence. One time I did see Brian slam his hand down on a vinyl that was playing so hard that the music stopped. The band member hoping to impress him said, "Okay Brian. I guess you've heard enough, Brian," as he scampered out of the room. It was 3 songs in to the record.

It was complicated.

Thanks Debbie. I appreciate your thoughts and I certainly admit to my thoughts being nothing but outsider observations which are certainly not impervious to flaws or blindspots, as I was not there. Things are often nuanced, and I suppose I just give more of the benefit of the doubt to the principal players (like Al) who, unlike some others, have expressed some regret in hindsight about perhaps not supporting the creativity of their bandmembers as much as they might have wished they'd done in hindsight. A person's ability to reflect on things like that (or lack thereof) is everything to me in terms of how much slack I cut them, personally speaking.
23  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Beach Boys studio disasters and screwups? on: September 25, 2018, 01:24:39 PM
I think, from what I understood from Brian, he wanted a place to get away and record what he wanted to do without being overruled.


If *anyone* deserved this (total creative control/freedom from agenda-driven bandmates/politics), it's Brian.  

That he had to go through all sorts of hoops to attain that freedom bugs me and should bug everyone too. It's beyond ridiculous the crap he had to go through and egos he had to put up with. Urgh.

</rant>

(thanks again Debbie for your amazing stories and recollections).

I have to say the story about Bruce and Terry at the time was that they gave Brian $50K to record, but the money was "found out" and removed from the account. I've heard other stories since. I have no idea which is true, particularly since I can't remember who told me this. Oh, well. I do remember Terry coming over to Brian's, and he couldn't stop smiling when he saw Brian. I think he really was in awe and adored Brian at that time, by his expression. That's why I feel a bit guilty when I talk about the production on SIP, but I can't help what it sounds like to me.

This has turned into a terrific discussion, thanks to all involved and thanks Debbie and Stephen especially for the firsthand memories!

We were discussing Jack Rieley in another recent thread, and it was good to get more information and perspective on the table, especially for newer fans reading this stuff who may have only heard *one* version of events, and perhaps had opinions shaped on people like Jack based on one perspective. We need to look at and weigh all sides. Whether it's Jack, or Terry Melcher, or the way Brian had to go elsewhere to record his ideas (seriously...add me to the chorus of those wondering WTF was going on within the band to cause this).

More on that to come. But discussing Terry brought up more of the story with him in particular. Debbie, I agree 100% that Terry in particular was very influenced by and in awe of what Brian could do even as early as when they first connected. You hear Terry during the Party! sessions, where he was already cutting hit records on his own as performer and producer, including one which has gone on to be one of the most important records of the modern era, Mr. Tambourine Man...as well as cutting sides for the Raiders, who people might not realize were one of the hottest bands in the US during the mid 60's and basically had their own network TV show.

Yet here was Terry happy to hit a tambourine at Brian's Party sessions, and who would appear in the studio to hang out and watch as Brian was making Pet Sounds and beyond. Yes, Terry was a big fan, no doubt, but you hit on the aspect that doesn't get said as much: Terry admired Brian and what he could do. No doubt.

What is lost too is how Terry would devote his career to his mom Doris Day and her various musical and TV/film projects instead of continuing to cut rock and roll records. Who knows how much more he would have done in the rock world had he not made the decision to work for his mom and build her career. And, doing so at a time when Doris Day was no stranger to the scandal sheets and Hollywood gossip, some of which was blatantly racist and unfair...again, topic of other discussions.

What Terry did with SIP, I feel, is do what he was hired to do. *Terry* was the one who got the band back on the charts in the 80's with Kokomo. It was Terry who produced California Dreamin and got Roger McGuinn in on the session to add some cool 12-string guitar to the track - It gave the Boys an AC hit when they couldn't buy one. It was also Terry who called Papa John Phillips and asked if he had any songs available for the Beach Boys to record, with what was yet another drought of songwriting within the band. Papa John sent Terry demos of Kokomo and Somewhere Near Japan, and obviously we know what happened to Kokomo. Major credit to Terry, despite some attempts to undercredit him in favor of other band members' involvement in that track.

SIP - Mike's baby through and through. That's not bashing, that's what it was. Let's recapture the winning Kokomo formula, and cut an entire album with this "new" sound. It was an ill-conceived attempt. Terry produced, yes - But read the credits in full. I have to think Terry was doing exactly what he was hired and told to do. The saying goes "you can't make chicken salad out of chicken sh*t".


The story of the "remote" studio and 4-track and Terry and Bruce's involvement in other ventures really makes you wonder about how things played out up to the present, and which loyalties carried over into the band's inner politics. Much more can be added to this aspect of the discussion, but I rambled enough already.

I just thought it was great to hear some more about Terry and Brian especially in this time period, and get more details and info on the table for fans to see how everything was not as cut and dry and clean-cut as other versions of events have tried to suggest.

Thanks so much, Craig, for expanding on Terry, whom I really liked a lot. He was very successful on his own, obviously. Thanks for noting the SIP credits. I feel certain he was doing what he was hired to do. It certainly wasn't his "sound."

It's funny when you mention the band's politics, in that when I was with Brian, he did everything to protect me from it all. His words were, "I want to keep you separate from all that." I didn't really understand, but it was fine with me. He knew I was innocent at the time - naive might be a better word. He may have seen his own innocence in my love of the music and people involved. He truly is a sweet soul with a certain "wicked" wit.

I think if Brian had his wish, he himself would have been separated from the band's politics and just made music. Can't say I blame him one bit. I'll never understand how a band that made such beautiful healing music can be surrounded by so much negative energy. But then I remember that it's a family band, and nobody can f*** someone over like family. Lord knows I've been there


Totally. And I'm having a hard time seeing Carl, Denny, or Al - however they might have had feelings about direction of the band's music that might have differed from Brian's - pulling any sort of longterm guilt tripping or other psychological warfare aimed at Brian that would have made Brian feel like he had to "get away and record what he wanted to do without being overruled"... in other words, I feel like when the term "band politics" is uttered in relation to The BBs, it's safe to say this in a nutshell means Brian's cousin. Remove Mike from the band in the late 60s/early 70s, I just don't see Brian having to resort to essentially sneaking around peoples' backs just to record stuff with having creative control. Maybe I'm offbase, this is just how it seems to me as an outsider. That said, I know things are nevertheless complex and nuanced.
24  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Beach Boys studio disasters and screwups? on: September 25, 2018, 01:19:45 PM
I think, from what I understood from Brian, he wanted a place to get away and record what he wanted to do without being overruled.


If *anyone* deserved this (total creative control/freedom from agenda-driven bandmates/politics), it's Brian. 

That he had to go through all sorts of hoops to attain that freedom bugs me and should bug everyone too. It's beyond ridiculous the crap he had to go through and egos he had to put up with. Urgh.

</rant>

(thanks again Debbie for your amazing stories and recollections).

I have to say the story about Bruce and Terry at the time was that they gave Brian $50K to record, but the money was "found out" and removed from the account. I've heard other stories since. I have no idea which is true, particularly since I can't remember who told me this. Oh, well. I do remember Terry coming over to Brian's, and he couldn't stop smiling when he saw Brian. I think he really was in awe and adored Brian at that time, by his expression. That's why I feel a bit guilty when I talk about the production on SIP, but I can't help what it sounds like to me.

Going back to the original topic, I wonder if the very early nature of digital ProTools that was used when recording SIP could have hypothetically resulted in a potential studio disaster such as an entirely different (better?) version of the album being accidentally erased or corrupted, due to Terry or an engineer not backing up the data, and the final album that was released being a quickie re-record. I wonder how susceptible the recordings were to something like that happening, even if only for one song or two.

(Not saying this actually happened, and it probably didn't, but then again one has to wonder what studio limitations Terry was dealing with in 1992 trying to record an album on an early beta version of software). I wonder what decision(s) drove Terry to choose to record the album this way (early non-linear editing).  Was it done to accommodate the nonstop touring of The BBs, and somehow it was decided that it'd be easier to squeeze in occasional recordings in this manner as opposed to recording the band in a more traditional and tried-and-tested method? (Side note, how was Kokomo recorded? I'm assuming on tape and not digitally? There's definitely more warmth to the Kokomo sound compared to SIP)

Side side note: Somewhere, I'd think there'd have to be a Hi8 video of somebody in 1992 visiting the studio and documenting some of the recording or editing of SIP, right? I'd think it must exist among some insider or family member's personal collection, I find it near impossible to believe that nothing like that exists (even if it never sees the light of day).
25  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Beach Boys studio disasters and screwups? on: September 24, 2018, 04:14:19 PM
I think, from what I understood from Brian, he wanted a place to get away and record what he wanted to do without being overruled.


If *anyone* deserved this (total creative control/freedom from agenda-driven bandmates/politics), it's Brian. 

That he had to go through all sorts of hoops to attain that freedom bugs me and should bug everyone too. It's beyond ridiculous the crap he had to go through and egos he had to put up with. Urgh.

</rant>

(thanks again Debbie for your amazing stories and recollections).
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