gfxgfx
 
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
logo
 
gfx gfx
gfx
672450 Posts in 27078 Topics by 3981 Members - Latest Member: Toxic34 October 25, 2021, 01:00:53 AM
*
gfx*HomeHelpSearchCalendarLoginRegistergfx
  Show Posts
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 ... 233
1  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Feel Flows box set on: October 22, 2021, 04:01:29 PM
Great words from Stanley Shapiro

It's really unconscionable that this wonderful song was omitted in favor of SDT.

My mother is a child of the 60s who attended Berkeley and was part of People's Park, she was there and lived it, and I recently played her SDT for the first time, and about halfway through it she thought it was so horrible - lyrically speaking she found it incredibly emotionally tone deaf and insulting  - that she wanted me to turn it off.

I happily obliged.
2  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brian Wilson: Long Promised Road (2019 Brent Wilson Documentary) on: October 14, 2021, 11:50:43 AM
I agree, costume and set design were award-worthy as well.

"Love & Mercy" was a small miracle; a truly great film above all else. I don't have really any major gripe about the film. I think plenty of elements were awards-worthy, and certainly nomination-worthy. It's not a knock on Brian, but "One Kind of Love" was pretty far down on the list of things that seemed award-worthy, to me anyway.

If Brian wanted an Oscar nom for a song, I think a good model would be to shop something like "Sail Away" (from NPP) to like a Disney animated movie or something.

I have to say I disagree. I think "one kind of love" is definitely amongst the very very best material Brian has ever done in his solo career. Does it compete with the very best stuff he did in his heyday? I wouldn't quite say so. But it's still quite excellent and definitely gives me the feels especially on the chorus and the lyrics about unconditional love are just very meaningful to my ears at least. From a purely emotional standpoint I think it gets my vote for it being award worthy especially when trying to tie something into that movie to get some sort of award connected to it.

That said I suppose OKOL doesn't quite fit into the modern day context of what wins awards perhaps. It's not quite as mesmerizing or filled with hooks or whatever you wanna call it, and didn't really strike a chord with the mass public in the way that they perhaps hoped it would, which if it had perhaps would've led to it winning. But I think it deserves proper accolades and definitely had a place at the table amongst whatever songs it was nominated against that year. IMHO.

That said... from a truly realistic standpoint, just in terms of thinking about what could actually win an award, as opposed to what is maybe most deserving or not, your suggestion of "Sail away" in a Disney flick  might have been a bit more logical. I'm just more thinking about my emotions here with regards to my own personal opinions on the matter.

3  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Dennis Wilson article in \ on: October 08, 2021, 02:17:45 PM
I believe this is the essay in question:

https://www.shindig-magazine.com/?p=4986

What's here is quite like fodder for a long, complicated thread, but if the description in the section of the essay pertaining to "Wouldn't It Be Nice (to Live Again)" is any indication, there was (as Jack Rieley has been quoted as saying) simply too much music being created in the time frame after SUNFLOWER's release for the group to process it properly. The question of how the "Poops" songs were supposed to seque is worth some time from some of our more advanced musicians/musical thinkers, and I hope that some folks will take it up.

But the central mystery that I'd love to have solved is why "Make It Good" and "Cuddle Up" got selected for CATP over "Wouldn't It Be Nice (to Live Again)." Neither of those tracks could possibly have been seen as singles, and it must have been apparent even then that WIBNTLA was a superior track.

I could be mistaken but I seem to recall reading, possibly on this board, that WIBNTLA was written during one particular period in Dennis's love life, but at a future point when it might have been released on a later album, he was in a different place in his love life where that song was incongruous with his current feelings, and maybe that impacted its non-release.

It is still baffling, although it would perhaps seem that he learned a thing or two from his big brother as far as keeping some of his best material locked away, if perhaps that material experienced some sort of rejection in its original incarnation. I mean, Brian essentially normalized that behavior within the Wilson brothers,  I think it had much to do with heavy emotions and feelings of rejection.

When those heavy feelings were at play, I think there was no way for them to be objective about what was "better material" when it came to releasing songs. Maybe a song was "tainted" or just had heavy feelings associated with it, and that probably took precedent over any objective reasoning  when it came to  releasing comparatively lesser material in its place.
4  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Here's a little web-series about some Feel Flows era tunes on: October 05, 2021, 11:21:43 PM
Just watched the video on "slip on through" and it was really fantastic. Thank you so very much for doing these!
5  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: The 2020 mix of \ on: October 05, 2021, 11:08:47 PM
The best part of the song is the little brief break/bridge ascending melodic part. Somehow that section has always remind me of an old TV station jingle, like something you'd hear while the announcer says "you're watching NBC", or something to that effect.

Definitely one of my least favorite songs by the band, but it's much better in instrumental form, comparatively speaking. Oddly, it feels somehow cut from a similar cloth as "tears in the morning", with a vaguely European type of vibe. I do appreciate that Brian was trying to do something different, is definitely different than most of the other songs he ever recorded.

Lyrically, was Mike trying to write some sort of proto feminist anthem? It almost feels like maybe this was a conscious effort to conceptually distance the band from songs like "California girls", with lyrics that just talk about women being cool in a non physical or non romantic way...or something like that.

I can't quite even understand what the point of the song is lyrically, other than some random outsider observations of women as though they are some sort of species onto themselves. Very odd. I guess it paved the way for "smart girls", which also seems to be Brian atoning for his past sins of thinking about women primarily for reasons other than their brains.  But yes lyrically this song is extraordinarily embarrassing IMHO
6  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Won't you tell me why Won't You Tell Me was left unreleased? on: October 05, 2021, 08:51:26 AM
It's a pretty song but it's quite schmaltzy and dated sounding for the time.  And Brian's wonky lead vocal is all over the place.  The song would have probably been more at home featured in one of the band's earlier albums from the early 60's.

I have wondered if the vocal was even properly considered  to be a "final" lead vocal, or if basically what we have on the recording is just the state it was in when Brian stopped working on it? It's a really odd vocal because in parts it's really amazing and pulls at the heartstrings but in other parts it sounds a bit off in a way that I can't quite describe. But I guess this is probably also part of Brian's mental state at the time where his self-confidence was getting erratic.

In any case I just adore this song and it's one of my very favorite part of the entire box. It's got those patented Brian Wilson chord changes, And it really makes no sense why a song like this was left off while tracks like "our sweet love" were released around this time. I love "our sweet love", but I suppose it could be considered not all that different in terms of feel/vibe/topic to this song. Maybe this song is just a hair more schmaltzy...

Somehow it does feel like a song that would've been recorded by Carpenters.
7  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Beach Boys lineup in Cleveland - June 1, 1991 on: September 28, 2021, 05:27:22 PM
Richie Cannata was part of the band for this 1992 publicity photo (which was probably taken in late 1991 or early 1992):



That backing band pic is amazing. What would have been the purpose of doing a professionally shot photo of the backing band at this point in time? Were they being contracted to do one-off shows for non-BBs type scenarios?

Side note: Matt Jardine's mullet and near shirtless look make him look just like the sax player from The Lost Boys in this pic.
8  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Brianís involvement in solo albums on: September 28, 2021, 05:05:45 PM
In a nutshell, it seems likely to me that - just like Marilyn said - it took a good deal of questioning and haranguing aimed at Brian's music, by the people around Brian, to cause something to irrevocably "flip" in his head.

From a certain point on, this caused Brian to not quite completely have full 100% confidence in his own mojo to pull off songs and have the entire process go relatively easy-peasy.

I mean, Brian had such an amazing track record in the early days, and yes I'm sure there was some push/pull with his collaborators here and there... but ultimately Brian being the boss and having final word was relatively UNQUESTIONED for a number of years. Then, at a certain point, the pressure of some people close to him not quite believing in him or his vision, and getting all of those wires crossed in his head with second-guessing the "appropriateness" of the music he was making, it all seemingly culminated in Brian permanently not really having the self-contained motivation to see songs through fully to completion, without someone else REALLY helping to push a project along to the final stages.

The bad vibes during the SMiLE period, and the fact that Mike basically passive aggressively helped (didn't solely cause, but helped) to sink a creative collaboration between Brian and Van, had long lasting ramifications. And yes the drugs didn't help either.

On top of this, the other factor is that Brian - in addition to nearly always getting his way creatively in the early years - also had a streak of amazing success, where the vast majority of what he released with The BBs was well-received by the public/critics, and it SOLD and did well on the charts. As the band's reputation took a nosedive, and Brian was dealing with his own second-guessing of his own work, he sadly ALSO at this time - when he was beginning to be artistically crippled by this internalized second-guessing - sadly secondarily had to deal with wondering if the songs that he'd release would even sell worth a damn, and if anyone in the public would really care. It was a double whammy for his self-confidence, and I think after trying really hard to make super A-level contributions for Sunflower - and having it tank so profoundly commercially - this was something he never fully recovered from.

Many artists will tell you that the hardest thing it might be to do is to put one's heart and soul into a project and have it fall flat (in terms of how it is received by those around the artist, or the public)... and this sad cycle of losing full confidence in his work - IMHO -  led Brian's ambition, and thus his creativity, to slowly fade over the years. Luckily he still has the urge and inclination to write music sometimes, and if the right collaborator comes along, it can cause some magic to happen for sure - but overall the early massive success set in motion expectations that couldn't be sustainable over the years.

And as VDP put it in the Beautiful Dreamer doc, if ANYONE as an artist deserved to not have their artistic vision questioned, it was Brian Douglas Wilson. That wholly accurate statement, and the way that concept was not adhered to by those in Brian's circle (sometimes for some perfectly understandable, human reasons, and sometimes for other much more nefarious reasons) is IMHO the chief reason why Brian's ambition to finish projects and see stuff though to completion became spotty. He needed a safety net, and his safety net failed him too many times.

Brian eventually basically said "f*ck it" out of self-preservation, and whatever amount of himself he began giving to projects (which gradually became less than the 100% he gave in the early days) ensured that disappointments wouldn't hurt quite as bad anymore when they inevitably happened again and again.

IMHO, the way that Brian was for years sadly mind-f*cked by those around him, and the way those around him have reacted in an attempt to get Brian back to a more productive state - even with the very, very best of intentions - has had mixed results over the years, for sure. I, just like so many others, just want Brian to be happy first and foremost. Anything else that we are gifted with musically from Brian at this point is a true gift and blessing. I'm sure many agree that that Brian's current band and emotional safety net would have done wonders for his self-confidence and ability to finish projects had they been at his disposal decades earlier.
9  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: My failed \ on: September 27, 2021, 07:22:14 PM
Hi CD!

Yeah, that tripped me out that Weird Al played on three Brian/SI tracks. "Rainbow Eyes" (the original recording) is actually one of my favorite BW pieces. It kinda gave me hope to hear that small segment during the "Brian's Song" 20/20 special that it wasn't all bad news.

Tante

For as famous and beloved as Weird Al is, it's a surprisingly little-known and little-discussed fact. I hope one day somebody gets to ask him about it, it would be worth it just to see the look on Al's  face to have somebody even know that he did those tracks - deep cuts!

Although I assume that any/all memories that Al might have about those tracks would probably be tainted by some weird Landy goings on.  

I have to wonder, was Al simply asked to perform on those tracks as a way to rope in some celebrity connection to the album? Was he a big fan of Brian Wilson? That certainly wouldn't be hard to believe. I just wonder how he wound up doing them, was he asked, and how did all that go down... I've never heard of any connection between him and Brian or Brian's people so I wonder how they did get connected.

Come to think of it, there needs to be a Weird Al Jardine collab.
10  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: My failed \ on: September 27, 2021, 06:17:48 PM

"Weird Al" also played accordian on "Rainbow Eyes" and "Angel"!

 

Side note: I met Weird Al several years ago, and sincerely regret that I completely brain-farted and forgot to ask him about working with Brian Wilson. D'oh!

I wonder how many times he's been asked that. I can't think many, especially how obscure and unreleased the material was that Al worked on.
11  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Misheard lyric favorites on: September 26, 2021, 10:20:49 AM
For years - no joke - this is what I incorrectly misheard a lyric as : "There's a black person in my soul" - Water Builds Up
12  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Feel Flows box set on: September 26, 2021, 10:09:02 AM
One of my favorite moments on the box that I've recently discovered is the live version of "long promised road", particularly when Carl starts singing "yeah, yeah" repeatedly during the bridge. It just feels like he's really getting into the groove of it.

I haven't deep dived into the live recordings of this era, so I don't know if that was just something that he did off the cuff this one performance, or if it was more of a recurring thing when they would play this song during the era, does anybody know?
13  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: May 1, 1971 Footage on: September 24, 2021, 08:30:26 AM
Proof that the hippies really DID dig the Boys again by this time, after having banished them to the "square, has-beens" wasteland for a good four years or so. I think the beards helped!

It's very interesting trying to wrap my head around watching this. The footage is phenomenal and I'm so glad it exists.

C-man, I'd say your statement is only partly right! Smiley I think a good amount of hippies were still trying their best to give the band the cold shoulder at this time. But the camera can see it changing a bit in front of us, too. It's a transitional period that got documented.

Watching the crowd react to the band is also really a trip, it almost seems like more members of the crowd "want" to dance around and enjoy the music, but perhaps some of them think they are too cool for school and wind up looking a bit standoffish.

But nevertheless some other people are dancing (it would appear to be a relatively small amount of the crowd), and that almost gives "permission" for other hipsters in the crowd to start bopping their heads and outwardly enjoy the music as well.

Around this time period, I think some young people were second-guessing what was socially acceptable to like and enjoy. I mean, I'm sure people had their tastes legitimately change anyway, and some people just didn't really dig The BBs anymore...but there was also a secondary matter of how much some people were willing to outwardly show they were enjoying music (being performed by musicians who for the last several years had largely been thought of by the hipster elite as being "squares") in the event that showing enjoyment would cause some sort of social repercussions in their elite social group.

From a social perspective and trying to understand "The BBs are unhip and very uncool" wilderness years mentality, and how that perception wound up changing and turning around, this is truly an invaluable historical document. It's almost like you can begin to see the cracks in that perception here. Also this is particularly interesting because this wasn't a "Beach Boys show", it was a festival with multiple bands, so you're seeing the reaction of many people who are just seeing the band inadvertently, who likely didn't go there for the specific reason to see The BBs play.
14  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Audree Wilson on Is It True What They Say About Dixie on: September 22, 2021, 11:44:52 PM
It seems like Murry's musical influence on the Wilson trio has been overstated, and Audree's understated. Murry was definitely the one Brian was trying to impress, but as far as actual passing on of skill, Audree was clearly the better singer. It would make more sense to assume that Brian, Carl and Dennis learnt to sing by listening to her, not their dad.

Spot on
15  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Feel Flows box set on: September 22, 2021, 09:09:34 AM
Has there ever been any info on why My Solution was recorded in the 1st place?

There's no way this was ever done with the intent of it being an album track on any project, right?

I'm guessing it was just written/recorded for fun/as a goof, but wondering if anyone knows any other info.
16  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Audree Wilson on Is It True What They Say About Dixie on: September 21, 2021, 09:04:10 PM
A couple comments...

I believe that some neighbors like Dave Marks have said that Audree could play almost anything by ear on the piano.

In his autobiography, Mike Love says that his mother (Murry's sister Glee) said that Audree was the most musically talented person she ever met.

Once-in-a-generation talent like that of Brian and his brothers doesn't just appear out of thin air.

Absolutely true.
17  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Audree Wilson on Is It True What They Say About Dixie on: September 21, 2021, 02:46:52 PM
Am I the only one who was (and remains) emotionally floored by this track from the '68-'69 "I Can Hear Music" sessions?  

From the very first time I heard it, and continuing until now whenever I play it, I get a bit emotional hearing how amazing Audree was at singing.

I'm just surprised it hasn't been talked about more on this board.

I mean, there's nothing in her voice that whatsoever indicates (to my ears, at least) that Audree was anything less than a completely professional level singer on this recording. Her voice was *that* good, and it's perhaps shocking that she hardly recorded anything other than a few backing vocals on some very early BW tunes, and this lovely gem. Maybe she was just a private person and didn't have the desire to put herself out there, the way Murry did for his lone so-so album. But she was SO good, dare I say too good, to have never done any proper professional recordings. Yet I'm sure she had her reasons. The stress of her family being in the spotlight and dealing with what they dealt with must have been unimaginable.

I think the thing that gets me emotional and brings a tear to my eye when hearing it, is that there is an unmistakable kindness and sweetness to her voice, which is evident to me just during the brief studio chatter of her talking. And it tells me that the incredible kindness the Wilson brothers all had/have must have come in no small part from her.

Anyway, everyone should give this a listen. I can only imagine the Wilson family's reaction when they first were made aware of the existence of this tape, I'm sure tears were shed when hearing it. It's remarkable, perhaps one of the most remarkable items in the ENTIRE catalog as far as I'm concerned.

For those who haven't heard it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLWS6T5Gax8

18  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Feel Flows box set on: September 20, 2021, 11:00:55 AM
Two of the funniest moments of the box, both during My Solution :

Brian rolling/annunciating the letter "r" during the word "pRoduced" at 0:23 (was this an attempt at a Boris Karloff impersonation?)

Brian comically speeding up his spoken word lyric "...to all mankind" so that he gets to *barely* squeeze in all the awkward verbose words just before the chorus comes in at 1:10

I played this song for my mom who could not stop laughing. I guess this could be considered the spiritual sequel to Monster Mash?
19  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Surf's Up: A Beach Boys Podcast Safari - \ on: September 18, 2021, 05:05:35 PM
Fantastic listen! Thanks for sharing.
20  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Celebrate The News on Feel Flows box set on: September 17, 2021, 07:53:07 AM
I completely agree with you with this. Not only on your words on how under-appreciated (such a good word instead of underrated!) it is, but also your feelings about the outro. The outro didn't get its kind of "roaring" feeling to it on the remix (almost Phil Spector-ish?). It almost became an entirely different song there.

Listen to the boys loud and clear!

Thanks! Yes there's something very magical about that outro. Definitely a Spector-esque vibe, but also it's got somewhat of a sinister and extremely rocking vibe. It's just a very special moment that I just want to go on forever, sort of like that Til I Die outro where I could just listen to it on a loop and get hypnotized.

Also - this is one of the only songs in the catalog where the band members are partially referred to by the band name, "The Boys". The only other examples I can think of are Smart Girls "I'm the original Beach Boy", and the song title "For The Boys". Maybe there's another example or two I'm missing.

In any case it's such a great song that deserves more ears on it, and I really hope if there's a digital only FF sequel, that this song could get another version - it most certainly is worthy of one! Smiley
21  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Celebrate The News on Feel Flows box set on: September 14, 2021, 06:19:33 PM
Firstly, I just wanted to say that the FF set is utterly amazing, and once again all the wonderful folks involved deserve a HUGE standing ovation for their hard work and dedication.

Now, for some selfish fan groveling:

Celebrate The News is one of my absolute favorite songs from that era (MOST especially the hard rocking psychedelic outro on the originally-released non-FF box set version), so honestly I was disappointed that there wasn't a proper remaster/remix that included that outro. If I'm not mistaken, the original mix of Celebrate The News must be one of the only originally released BBs songs in the catalog (up until the '70/'71 era) that hasn't yet been properly remastered and re-released since its original CD release, no? (Update : after rechecking, actually I guess it was re-released on MIC in 2012, but I still think this song of all songs deserves an updated mix with the full outro, because the other updated mixes that Mark and Alan have done have been fantastic!)

I happen think Celebrate's outro section (on the original 1969 mix) is one of THE greatest moments in the entire catalog, and it just rocks out SO damn hard in a head-banging way, unlike anything the band ever did. It's almost like The Beach Boys' answer to the proto-metal head banging of The Beatles' Helter Skelter.

That said, I do also certainly dig the alternate mix that was done for the FF box where the backing track fades out and it becomes a capella -  a very cool different way to hear the song.

However... in the event that there's ever a digital-only sequel release to the FF box, in case the powers that be might want to consider adding another track, what I'd absolutely LOVE to hear is an instrumental version of the backing track, and/or a new fresh mix of the full song with the full/elongated outro backing track restored (along with vocals), or full backing track with backing vocals... or something of that nature.

I realize that the wonderful folks behind the box set aren't exactly taking "requests", but in the event this puts that idea out into the universe, it would be a true musical gift to the world. As I said, this song is incredibly under-appreciated (especially the hard rocking outro bed of music), and the song as a whole quite simply deserves far more ears on it than have ever heard it.

(Now I'll carry on and go back to gratefully listening to all the wonderful music we've been gifted with on the FF box set proper  Cool).
22  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Feel Flows box set on: September 04, 2021, 10:28:14 AM
California Saga would also be a good simple but appropriate title.

This actually seems quite likely to be what it winds up being called
23  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Feel Flows box set on: August 31, 2021, 09:55:44 AM
"4th of July" (2019 Mix):

The beautiful meditative instrumental moment from 2:03 until 2:14 sounds like the Twin Peaks theme music, recorded 20 years earlier.

Does anyone else hear the similarity?
24  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Feel Flows box set on: August 30, 2021, 05:20:07 PM
Greetings all,
While waiting on my sets to arrive, I'm hoping that someone can confirm or deny claims that these sets contain different mixes between them.
I read somewhere back in June that a specific mix of this or that was exclusive to the 2CD set and not the 5 CD set itself, and vise versa. Does anyone else recall this tidbit/news in regards to them?


Tidal has both sets available for streaming:

- San Miguel is 14 seconds shorter in the 2 CD set, it fades out sooner.
- Susie Cincinnati has car engine noises at the beginning in the 2 CD set. These sounds are missing in the 5 CD set.
- I'm Going Your Way starts with 14 seconds of studio chatter in the 5 CD set. This is missing in the 2 CD set.
- Soulful Old Man Sunshine is 13 seconds shorter in the 2 CD set, it fades out sooner.
- All I Wanna Do (A Capella) is 16 seconds shorter in the 2 CD set, it fades out while they are still singing. In the 5 CD set it continues until they stop singing.
- (Wouldn't It Be Nice To) Live Again lasts 4:37 in the 2 CD set versus 6:50 in the 5 CD set.
- Behold The Night has a slightly shorter intro and a slightly shorter ending in the 2 CD set, it's 5 seconds shorter in total.
- All Of My Love/Ecology has a 30 second rehearsal at the beginning which is missing from the 2 CD set. Also, in the 5 CD set the "run run river run" section is twice as long. It's a 50 second difference in total.
- Awake begins with 30 seconds of studio chatter which are missing from the 2 CD set.
- Disney Girls (Live 1982) ends with Al saying "thank you, Bruce" in the 5 CD set. The track fades out before this in the 2 CD set.
- Disney Girls (Backing Vocals Excerpt) is 16 seconds shorter in the 2 CD set, it's missing half the track.

There may be more stuff that I missed.

As much as I am an advocate for physical media continuing to exist, and I very much am, it's obvious that the space limitations of physical media came into play here which is unfortunate, but at least they have a longer versions available for streaming which most people easily have access to. It's nobody's fault; a disc in only hold so much content.

And in doing a cursory check I believe all of those lengthened tracks are that way as well on Spotify.
25  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Feel Flows box set on: August 27, 2021, 10:41:32 PM
This release of "Awake" is everything I always wished it would be. So beautiful. My jaw is on the floor.

Ditto X10000
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 ... 233
gfx
Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Page created in 0.862 seconds with 21 queries.
Helios Multi design by Bloc
gfx
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!