Very cool!

RIP Melinda. What a sad time.

I got to say hello to Melinda at the last Carl Wilson foundation show at the Roxy, and I thanked her for all she's done to help Brian. I hope many people got to tell her similar words of thanks over the years.

[this alternate version of reality.]

GF - I agree completely that so much of whether I can enjoy/accept recordings like these are due to the superior quality of the workmanship that went into them, and Dae Lims IMO is killing it in that department.

I guess a primary issue that people can have with these is the insertion of musical ideas from another person who is not the actual artist...Which I totally get why that bugs some people.

But that said, if the music is good, the music is good, and I'm not trying to pretend it's anything else than what it actually is.
As it sounds really cool, I'm not going to force myself not to like it simply because it's not an actual recording of Brian Wilson's voice, despite sounding like him very much.

I'm reminded of officially released modern creations such as the 2012 version of Sail Plane Song.

I thought that was a really interesting experiment and I'm glad it exists and it was released.
It's not trying to take the place of anything else, it's just a well executed alternate reality that perhaps shows what the track might've sounded like if Brian had added more production back in the 1960s.

Not everybody digs it, but count me in as one of the people who does.

 These AI creations are somewhat similar in my book. It's new artistic ideas being put into an old song, but if it's done well that's all that matters to me. I'm not going to enjoy it as much as Pet Sounds and other actual original recordings by the band, but then it's not a contest.

I'm just glad that "new" material by this band is being carved out in one way or another.

It's ironic cause most of the fan mixes there have used ai tools to demix/re-balance, and people are fine with that.
I think we need to get past using the work 'ai' as a blanket term for any new audio tech.

It's a rather indescribable experience listening to these songs. But it's very very cool. To me there's only any moral and ethical quandary if he is trying to pass them off as the real thing, or anything like that. I see/hear nothing of the sort here so I have no problem enjoying this alternate version of reality.

I think some of the key issues in this debate are found in these two quotes. I am admittedly a vintage audio type of person, I prefer the sounds created on older technology. Having said that, hearing some of the AI creations posted and linked on this forum have changed my mind regarding the use of AI technology in creating these tracks, due in large part to the superior quality and the obvious respect and attention to detail that went into making them.

This could get long, because to cover all the aspects and issues would perhaps be a book-length exploration. All I want to do is express some of my own opinions, shine light on some historical details and parallels, and perhaps open some minds and opinions for discussion and consideration.


Point 1, and perhaps the more important issue to consider, is that all audio recording of music since roughly the late 1940's is an illusion, an alternate version of reality. As soon as pioneers like Les Paul started to work with magnetic tape, which led to multitrack recording, and other pioneers like Bill Putnam started to create technology to electronically process audio signals and create unnatural sounds and effects on recordings, the doors were kicked wide open. Recorded audio became an illusion, and the process of recording musical performances became a process of creating those illusions.

Previous to these developments, a recording was essentially capturing a live performance on media to be reproduced and sold and/or broadcast. Whatever the musicians did in whatever room they performed was recorded as it happened, as if the listener were in that room with them. The only editing that was done would have been doing multiple takes of that continuous live performance in order to get the "keeper" take.

When Les Paul came along with his "New Sound" or what they used to call "Sound On Sound", most times he had only himself or he and Mary Ford playing and stacking all the tracks. Instead of hiring 5 vocalists, along with a drummer, bassist, and perhaps 10 guitarists to cut a "live" take, we instead got 12 Les Pauls and 5 Mary Fords stacking sounds atop each other, track after track, to create an ensemble recording out of two people's musical performances.

That is pure illusion, pure alternate reality. It didn't exist prior to 1947 or so in the popular music realm, and that technique forever changed music. At the time, it was also called a gimmick, a fad, a false reality, etc by musical purists. They wanted to capture a full group as it performed live, whether it be classical, jazz, country...and some still do in 2024. But the illusion created by new technology, specifically magnetic tape and multitrack recording machines moved popular music miles ahead of where it would have been.

And the issue of magnetic tape: Editing became possible. If you had a group, or even a single spoken word artist, who had recorded 10 takes of a song, but none of those takes was "the one", a skillful engineer with a razor blade, a cutting block, and adhesive tape could patch together the best segments from those 10 takes and create a continuous recording which the majority of listeners would be fooled into thinking was a single live continuous take. Again, technology created a false reality, an alternate reality, but that technology allowed the creators to make records which were more perfect than would be humanly possible.

Tape editing became not only a skill but an art form. Instead of doing a straight cut, engineers could cut and splice angles to create seamless crossfades and deliberate effects. Instead of just connecting the first minute of take 2 with the last two minutes of take 7, they could razor-blade individual tracks in and out of the performance. It was used by experimental artists but probably brought to the mainstream by way of Good Vibrations, where the tape editing became part of the performance itself and created a #1 hit record. It wasn't used as a gimmick or a comedy prop, but rather played an integral role in the performance captured on the recording. Add to that the ability to loop tapes continuously, which was probably codified in popular music by The Beatles and Tomorrow Never Knows, and seen through into the 70's when the Bee Gees unknowingly created the robotic, precise nature of dance music by using the same 2-bar drum loop on 3 smash hit disco singles in the mid-70's because their drummer had to leave the sessions due to a family emergency and they didn't want to halt work on the tracks.

I could go on, and move into digital sequencing, digital recording, DAW's, and all that, but I think those gaps can be filled into the story.

It's an illusion, it's creating alternate reality from the point where a musician performs a passage of music and that recording gets distributed to and heard by listeners.

As such, how is the AI technology in the timeline of recording technology development any different than those previous developments? People who I guess were considered "purists" also criticized Les Paul's recordings, Bill Putnam's effects, the techniques of editing tapes in general, and a whole host of other developments through the years. Claims that it was not natural, it wasn't pure, it would create "lazy" musicians or put musicians out of work, it wasn't reality...Again, consider that recording music and distributing it to listeners in a multitude of formats is in itself creating an alternate reality and an aural illusion.

It's all in how the technology is used, and what kind of art is created with the technology. Artists use tools to create a work: If you give different artists those same tools and turn them loose, isn't it foolish to assume each of those artists will create some form of "high art" with them? It's like giving a hammer, nails, and wood to 10 people and expecting all 10 to create something valid or useful with those materials. One of those 10 might decide to smash the foot of another with the hammer, Three Stooges-style, to get a laugh...how can that be controlled other than someone saying not to do it? And if their goal was to create a comedy skit, to get laughs at the expense of someone else's foot, isn't that as comedy a valid use of the tools as well?

So much to digest, I've already gone too far. But consider AI as used to create these tracks is only another tool in the development of recorded sound. If people choose to make high art, or create pure crap, it's not the technology creating the end result as long as a human is inputting the data and parameters into the AI generators. And if people like one use of it, but not another use of the same technology, that's their own hang-ups and tastes.

Now if AI turns into HAL, that's another story. 

Hats off to Dae Lims, the tunes he is doing are phenomenal and fascinating.

Like most people I am terribly afraid of AI for so many reasons, but that doesn't mean I can't compartmentalize part of my brain and completely enjoy this for what it is.

It's essentially somewhere between a cover version and BBs music from an alternate future universe.

It's a rather indescribable experience listening to these songs. But it's very very cool. To me there's only any moral and ethical quandary if he is trying to pass them off as the real thing, or anything like that. I see/hear nothing of the sort here so I have no problem enjoying this alternate version of reality.

 I'm very grateful to listen to them and I greatly appreciate the work that went into them. Bravo.

But undeniably this is uncharted territory for all people. I had a long in person discussion with a friend of mine yesterday who is a fellow superfan of this band, but he has a problem getting emotional enjoyment out of these types of AI versions. I find that fascinating, and understandable, and honestly somebody should write a thesis or a book about this new phenomenon. Different strokes for different folks.

I get an uncanny valley repulsion when I see a humanoid robot, but for some reason these versions don't give me those same negative vibes at all.

I dig the album version but I've never cared for the single version. Way too much like a novelty track, and over the top like it's trying too hard. The album version has a simplicity paired with some interesting chord changes that make it flow better to my ears.

But lyric-wise it's definitely corny, and perhaps the most emblematic of their songs which screams "we are conventional conservatives and not rock 'n' roll rebels", or it would be perceived like that to some listeners. I suppose it seemed extremely dated within a year or two of its release.

But like I said, I still like it myself.

As soon as I saw this thread, I immediately had a glimpse of Brian Wilson talking about this song in the "beautiful dreamer" SMiLE documentary.

Go to 46:30, where he somewhat pejoratively throws Be True To Your School under the bus a little bit when comparing its conventionality to the avant-garde sounds of SMiLE.

https://youtu.be/0SriaRRcA6w

Craig Breedlove just passed away. He was the inspiration for the Beach Boys song "Spirit of America".

With his passing, how many celebrities are left who were name checked in a BBs song lyric?


https://www.autoweek.com/racing/more-racing/a43521840/craig-breedlove-first-to-drive-500-600-mph-dies-at-86/?fbclid=IwAR2ANNy9Z0q-GJPXxeYQckYkjFaWRDh6X7kUg6MrQQavTpRU8I9S82SN_-I&mibextid=q5o4bk

Fantastic interview👍🏼

I imagine the lack of deep cuts, or even anything remotely approaching deep cuts, that were performed on the show probably speaks to the desperation of television ratings these days… The fear of audience tuning out is most likely the culprit in my humble opinion.

This is truly fantastic. Can't wait to see similar session info released for other BBs eras!

I find it interesting and curious that Al Jardine was involved with this considering it was when he was already no longer part of the BBs band via him quitting.

I have to refresh my memory about the history because I guess I do recall he was never completely out of Brian's circle during this timeframe, but it is rather curious to think he quit The Beach Boys but simultaneously had the interest to do this random side project.

 I wonder how that went down, maybe it was less of a commitment for Al to do something like this if he wanted to still stay connected to Brian and the music world a bit?

Thanks to everyone involved in the making of the set.

I am overjoyed, and cannot wait to hear it and to purchase it.

Take. My. Money.

Are there more existent photos of Brian in a hat or Mike not in a hat? The yin and yang of those two 

Appreciate the help! 

A friend of mine emailed me a BBs question that I am unable to answer, but I figure somebody on this board would know.

Was any of Good Vibrations tracked or mixed at Capitol Studios?

I suppose the question would also include unreleased portions of the song, since I know there were so many different sessions which wound up not being used in the final released version edit.

Thanks in advance!

Forgive me and delete this thread if someone else has already started this topic (looked, didn't see anything), but...

https://www.magazinecafestore.com/products/life-the-beach-boys

Yes, it's a real thing. Snagged myself a  hard copy on my way out of the local pharmacy. Talk about an impulse buy, LOL, but there was an entire display that made it utterly impossible to miss.

Haven't read much of it yet so I can't provide commentary or a review.

Just wanted other BB fans to be aware of it should they be interested in tracking down a copy.

Side question - In that famous early picture of the Boys holding a surfboard (as seen on the LIFE cover), Brian has his hair bleached blonde. I guess he was trying to look like a surfer, I believe that's the consensus?

Curious if anybody knows how long that era lasted with Brian bleaching his hair? And for what timeframe exactly?
I also wonder if it was his idea or perhaps Murry or somebody else suggested it for marketing purposes.

Was Love You the first BBs album to have a promo t-shirt made for it?

I know there was smiley smile sweatshirt that I believe was available for sale from the band's fan club in '67 - There's a photo of Al wearing it.

But other than that fan club item for sale, I'm pretty sure LY is the first album by the band to receive a promotional T-shirt. Unless I'm mistaken?

MIU never had a promo shirt made… post LY, I think there were no promo shirts for any albums made until BB85; there was a 1979 light album tour shirt that incorporates some of the album art, but I don't really count that since it's more of a live tour shirt as opposed to strictly being a promo item for the studio album.

There's also a neat 1976 promo frisbee made for 15 big ones.

Here we go again. The stereo mix of Pet Sounds in 1996. The choice of using stereo mixes only with the 1990 CD releases. The duophonic mixes used anytime past 1969. And on and on and on.

I started listening to the Beach Boys fully in 1974 when I was 15. They weren't cool then, but ENDLESS SUMMER started their renewal, followed by SPIRIT OF AMERICA and GOOD VIBRATIONS-BEST OF THE BEACH BOYS a year later. 15 BIG ONES/BRIAN'S BACK pushed through 1976 with a bang. By 1977, all of that momentum had dissipated. MIU, LA and KTSA seemed to only stir the diehards like me. Long Beach July 5th 1981 finished any last hope for cool.

This group has always been out of the loop after about 1968. DO IT AGAIN was the last gasp for the surfer crowd. Since that time, there has been this absolute need for the group to try and be cool. Darian Sahanaja has spoken at length about being bullied for buying this group's records. I know I took a lot of sh*t for liking this group in my teens, but I will say MANY people I knew started having Beach Boy LPs in their collections after my ceaseless pushing. I snuck an advanced copy of IT'S A BEAUTIFUL DAY onto the playlist of the #2 rock station in Houston in 1979 by BS'ing a DJ doing a live remote. The people in the crowd liked the tune but I left the remote before getting caught. Don't tell me I look too young to be a CBS promo guy! I was 20!

So trying to make this group relevant is something each succeeding generation has tried, even the group itself. I will say the the Good Vibrations box was really a game changer in that battle. Other releases have also pushed their relevance back into the public's view. But one thing that some have forgotten is that the songs and performances themselves are what really matter. Yes, you want a legacy, your rightful place in history. But when you remix songs to where they no longer sound like the original releases, then the legacy you are trying to keep alive is a false reflection. Second guessing Brian, Carl or anyone else's notion of what was needed on a certain track at a certain time is not what is needed. It would be the same if you were making a movie of a well known novel but suddenly say THIS WAR NOVEL NEEDED ALIENS INSTEAD PEOPLE FIGHTING IN THE END. LET'S ADD THAT TO THE MOVIE SO IT WILL BE COOL.

My only real problem with the remixes is that THOSE remixes will be the only version of those tunes available. I saw that to a lesser extent when the stereo mix of PET SOUNDS came out in 1997. Hearing the stereo mix of WIBN with Brian's vocal in the bridge was not good. As a fan, it was marvelous. But it was not true to the original version nor to what Brian himself wanted. To hear songs only mixed in mono finally mixed to stereo is truly amazing and Mark needs so many thanks for that. They are eye openers. But to hear stereo mixes REDONE into new stereo mixes kind of misses the mark. And there seems no reason for those. My opinion.

I am in awe (no kidding) of all that Mark and Alan have done with this legacy they have been stewards of. I would NEVER second guess anyone. Way back in the late 1990s, I posted some thoughts on remasters done by Mark. He took issue with what I said, and I posted on my PetSite his remarks (which included my initial rantings) and my apologies for my suppositions. I learned to not make statements about situations without getting the full story. Mark said he had not had others do that for him. I replied they should have.

This whole "make them cool" mindset is not new for the group. As I said, my only issue is that THESE will now be THE versions of tunes available in the future. And they shouldn't be. If they can steer clear of that issue, I am fine. I can see radio (meaning satellite, podcasts etc) getting only these versions in the future. In 1987, George Martin pulled the multi-tracks for The Beatles HELP and RUBBER SOUL. He remixed both LPs for CD release. He was the original producer and the only one of the group that monitored the stereo mixes in 1965. These mixes are now the standard version and the original ones are only available in box sets. George Martin said he wished they would go back to the original mixes, but EMI keeps using the new ones, even when re-releasing the Beatles US box set. I am afraid such things will happen with the Beach Boys catalog.

What this old dude likes as his goto discs depends on where I am playing them. My base for the CAPITOL releases are the flat transferred PAST MASTER series. The WARNER tracks to me sound best now on the TEN YEARS OF HARMONY re-release out of Japan from 2019, again flat transfers, which means you are getting Carl's mastering of these tracks that he knew so well.

Just wanted to give my OLD MAN 2 cents worth on all of these things transpiring. You can read it or pass it by. Now where is my pudding? I need a nap!

I completely understand this side of the argument, however there's little that the creators of these remixes can do to determine if these will become "the" preferred version of the song that is played the most, and whether that version takes a greater hold in the public consciousness more than the original version, or not.

So many of these elements are out of peoples' hands, whether a given version winds up on a playlist on Spotify by some popular influencer and winds up getting traction, etc.… The new 21st century methods by which music is shared and popularized are often dictated by fans and playlists, so it is a situation where things such as determining which version becomes "the" version will really ultimately be out of their hands.

Once again, the original versions are there for people who want to hear them. I really don't think those original albums/mixes are going to fall into some sort of deep obscurity. However, admittedly, the new mixes will probably for the short term gain more traction than the originals, but this attention level ebbs and flows.

But even if a new version winds up eclipsing the originals in the public consciousness, I think it's still absolutely worth it for those new versions to be made and released. It's still cool that the band has great folks working on new ways to revitalize the old catalog, and we should all consider ourselves very lucky that this is happening. And once again, anybody who dislikes a particular version can simply skip it with no harm done.

Ultimately the brand is not going to somehow be diminished/hurt, nor will the brand lose fans over these new mixes. At worst, things would stay stagnant. But in my opinion, in all likelihood the brand will just continue to grow in stature among young people in part helped by the media attention the mixes will probably bring to the brand, and that's a good thing.

The new mixes are awesome, the Howie interview is great and informative, and I'm excited about the future of the brand with folks like Howie, Alan, and Mark working towards a common goal of reenergizing the brand, and having people look at the band in a fresh new way.

And yes it will definitely take marketing towards younger music fans in order for the music of this band to continue thriving and growing; this small amount of disgruntled older fans who somehow feel "left out" really need to get over themselves.

Remixes are awesome because they don't replace the originals at all. It's the closest way we can get to a brand new album by our favorite band to exist... we can't go back in time to get them to create new music in their prime - but we can fortunately re-examine the material in a completely different way *if we choose to listen to the new mixes, which of course is optional*, and I'm all for it.

The way some people are ridiculously reacting, one would think this is a George Lucas type of situation where the original mixes are being made unavailable. Absolutely not the case here.

I've often thought that releasing and selling the original multi tracks as ProTools sessions might be the final frontier for getting blood from a stone with regards to the old songs… I suppose these new remixes are essentially a sample platter of what that could be like, where new life can be brought to old mixes.

It doesn't make them better or worse - it's just a different way to listen to the songs. Everybody has their preferences and everybody can be happy because nothing is being made unavailable.

 Of course some people may not like certain new mixes and that's fine, but people really shouldn't be crapping on the idea of new mixes being released- and most certainly people shouldn't be crapping on the people working on this who are clearly knowledgeable, good folks who dearly value the brand and its reputation. Honestly, only good attention to the unfairly neglected parts of the band can come out of all of this, and the people complaining the loudest come across like Grandpa Simpson yelling at a cloud. Completely preposterous and unneeded negativity.

One more thing I should add, I can understand why some people have an attachment to the early material and they feel like that area of the band is going to get the short shrift, but that era has been soooo endlessly played up and focused for so many decades that it is fine for there to be a new focus now. It's absolutely necessary.

Here's the tracklisting from the Apple Music listing which seems to indicate which mixes are 2021, etc.

Thanks for sharing that, I am probably most excited by the new mix for the love you tracks as well as this mysterious "alternate take" of all I wanna do, I'm guessing this would be something that was totally different and not included on the FF box

I thought Carl singing Heaven and dedicating it to Dennis, was the high point of the show to me...but yes, other than that and Ray Charles, lots of down moments...especially the whole Piscopo thing.

Was this the final performance of Heaven? I'm wondering if that song, or any other Carl solo songs for that matter, were ever performed live post 1987.

Amazing, thanks for sharing!

I hope everything gets resolved quickly and amicably and that this doesn't drag on for the sake of all parties involved.

One interesting trivia tidbit, on page 76 of that legal document, it appears back in the early 80s, Judge Joseph Wapner was the judge involved in the original divorce case, he is best known for being the judge on the TV series The People's Court.

Brian is probably the BB member who has sung the most with multiple voices of himself on recordings, I'm thinking.

What I mean by that would be the example of the "don't talk" unused vocal section where Brian sang all the harmony parts by himself, stacked on top of each other.

I'm guessing that Carl, followed by Bruce, would I have recorded the next largest amount in this fashion, particularly on the LA Light album.

And of course at various times, Brian had the entire group double the group harmony vocals for a thicker effect, and we also have members regularly double or triple tracking their lead vocals, such as Mike on California Girls for his lead vocal.

But none of that is exactly what I'm talking about... I'm thinking about background harmonies where a single band member sings multiple parts.

Do we have any other examples where the same member is heard singing different parts simultaneously on a given recording? Did Mike or Al ever harmonize with themselves? I'm sure we could find examples of Dennis doing this.

I always had this page bookmarked, and I kept the faith and kept on rechecking - glad it's back!

Absolutely, CD. I think the production on Gershwin was the pinnacle of his solo career. I do wish we could hear Darian’s original mix though.

I imagine since this project wasn’t a full stand-alone album that Brian wasn’t too picky about his vocals (or the instrumentals). I think if Brian were doing a full on production (Pleasure Island?) that he would spend a lot more time getting his vocals right.

I had no idea there was an original Gershwin mix by Darian, that would be great to hear indeed!