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652034 Posts in 26054 Topics by 3716 Members - Latest Member: Smile_Essence1 November 11, 2019, 08:04:56 PM
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1  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Campfire Acoustic Session :Endless Summer TV Series on: November 04, 2019, 03:49:43 PM
I also find Brian's rocking and back and forth and the look in his eyes disturbing.  He doesn't say anything crazy but he definitely looks and acts off.  Landy's medication regime perhaps?
2  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Prelude to fade with my children vocals on: October 17, 2019, 08:27:44 AM
Sunny down snuff I’m alright would go there.
3  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Prelude to fade with my children vocals on: October 17, 2019, 08:06:23 AM
Yes - the tempo is fast but I think it works.  Hard to take the single version of it and overlay however - some serious time shifting would be required with the resulting artifacts.
4  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Heroes and Villians early version on: October 16, 2019, 05:59:03 PM
I don't think there's any evidence this tapebox indicates a final mix of the single was done at this time.  Cantina was likely the first complete "final" single mix attempt.

HEROS AND VILLAINS - 1ST PART

1 - 1st version of PT-1
2 - 2nd version of PT-1 with more echo
3 - 1st version of PT-2

4 Bridge to 3rd verses [or versions] (start with “My Children”)
5 Bridge To PT Two (whistle Part)

[note - EDITED, indicating all above parts]

6 - 3rd verses
7 BRIDGE [Last item crossed out]

NOTE:
THIS REEL HAS HAD ALL OF THE ABOVE REMOVED TO AN UNKNOWN REEL 12/31/85 J. PETERS

The box suggests to me that pieces of the song were mixed, and some of the pieces were edited together.  Then the pieces were removed to another reel which unfortunately appears to be missing, but we still have most of what was on this tape.

On Sea of Tunes Vol 17 disc 1 we have two mono mixes of the first two verses (Part 1), one with more echo.  The one with more echo sounds like the one eventually used for the Cantina mix.

1st version of Part 2 (cantina) is also on SOT, similar to what was used in the Cantina mix

Bridge to 3rd verse (start with my children) is the fast my children were raised, often wise which again was used in the Cantina mix to lead into the third verse (three score and five)

Bridge to Part 2 (whistle part) - eventually used to bridge from the third verse to the MOS Part 2/Barnshine fade in Cantina, here apparently it was being considered as a bridge to cantina (Part 2)  BUT there is an interesting edit on SOT 17 disc 1 track 16  using some of these parts:

Part 1 with more echo (1st 2 verses) edited into the whistle part edited into the "bridge to 3rd verse" (my children were raised)

So this mix may represent what was edited on this tape or on the tape the pieces were removed to.  Yes, it means the numbered sections on the tapebox are edited together 2 -5-4 but the box doesn't say the parts are edited together in numerical order, even though that would make more sense.

The verse edit experiment is also very interesting as it edits Part 1 (1st 2 verses) into bridge to Indians/pickup to 3rd verse.  Since it was done the same day as cantina was tracked, I have to think the idea was to try Part 1/bridge to Indians/cantina.  Because of the name when it was recorded Jan 3rd, two days before recording the Bicycle Rider vocals as Heroes Part 2, we have to assume Brian was thinking originally  Part 1/bridge/Bicycle Rider, but now cantina has replaced BR as Part 2.  In the cantina mix of course Brian used the a capella section to bridge to Part 2.

So an early January version might look like this:
Part 1 (1st 2 verses)/bridge to Indians/Bicycle Rider/pickup to 3rd verse/3rd verse/a capella/Bag of Tricks (Heroes Part 3)/Barnshine fade

There are mix attempts on SOT 17 disc 1 of the verses with 1st 2 verses followed by the 3rd verse followed by the a capella part (but with the backing track) so it's logical that at that time he was planning the a capella part to follow the third verse. This leaves out tag to Part One from Jan 3 and the version of Do a Lot.  Neither make any sense in any edit I can think of.  Maybe he was considering Do a Lot as a Part 2 before going back to Worms and taking Bicycle Rider from there 2 days later?
5  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: H&V fade and Sunshine part 2 ('barnshine') on: October 16, 2019, 05:01:45 PM
I think Brian was just experimenting with tempos and with the plucked strings during the "My Only Sunshine" part 2 session, until he found what he wanted.  It was meant to be Part 2 of YAMS, and then after rejecting Barnyard as the fade for Heroes, he appropriated it for Heroes (cantina) and wiped the MOS related vocals.  THEN he decided to redo Heroes from the ground up rerecording the verse instrumental and rerecording the YAMS Part 2 with Carl singing live.  He was losing the thread at this point, which is probably why he put Heroes aside for Vegetables for a while.
6  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Prelude to fade with my children vocals on: October 16, 2019, 04:54:52 PM
Nice work - although I think the lyrics for this would have been "I've been in this town so long, so long to the city . . . I'm fit with the stuff, to ride in the rough, and sunny down snuff I'm alright with the Heroes and villains" and then go to the Fade.
7  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Heroes and Villians early version on: October 14, 2019, 06:23:29 AM
The final two takes of All Day on Jan 27th were only about 20 seconds long, so Brian could have been considering incorporating it into Heroes somehow at this point.  And of course it was first demoed on Dec 22nd.  Hard to see where he would have put it but after he rejected IIGS as part 2 he seemed to be trying all sorts of things on tape to find some sections and link pieces to finish the single - the Jan 3 sessions in particular with bridge to Indians, Do A Lot, tag to Part 1, Mission Pak, pickup to 3rd verse and Bag of Tricks (which sounds like a rejiggered Heroes Part 3/"intro").  And then Bicycle Rider on Jan 5th.  Only to reject them all with finalizing the cantina mix.  And then rejecting that . . .
8  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Heroes and Villians early version on: October 13, 2019, 08:43:54 AM
Some people have argued, because of the new master number, that Bicyclerider was to be part of a part 2/side 2.  Cam, mainly.  So no absolute consensus, although Alan has said he believes that the part 2 designation was for part 2 of the A side, I.e. to replace cantina, the former Part 2, which is the theory I subscribe to.  Different master numbers were used for different parts of Good Vibrations I believe as well.

The intro in December was Heroes Part 3 and was definitely planned for the A side, to follow Cantina in some way, as I suggested in my earlier post possibly to go after Cantina/my children were raised/three score and five and before Barnyard.  And I believe the a capella section would go in there after three score and five as well.  The re-recorded intro March 1 was recorded as Intro to Part 2 with the Part 2 master number so presumably was to be on the Bside.  But there’s the musically similar piece recorded Jan 5?  along with bridge to Indians that was probably a replacement for the Dec intro and again meant for the A side of the single.
9  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Oct 20th. David Leaf .. BW RFH SMiLE performance first ever video showing....!? on: October 13, 2019, 08:27:48 AM
Is there supposed to be a link here?
10  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Heroes and Villians early version on: October 10, 2019, 08:56:42 AM
I agree that cantina was more than a trial mix - look at the trial mixes of the Part 2 sections and some other trial mixes of parts of Heroes, this was a professionally done mix for a single release.  Now to an extent you can call any unreleased mix a trial mix - since Brian ultimately decided against releasing it - but this wasn't just to see how the parts would fit together, this was meant to be a "final" version - until Brian decided it wasn't.
11  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Heroes and Villians early version on: October 09, 2019, 05:19:18 PM
Good point.  Heroes bridge COULD have been added when the tapes were reviewed and archived by Stephen and Carl in 1972 - but why would they write bridge when the piece is actually the chorus of the single which of course Carl and Stephen would be well aware of?  If the notation was from 67 then someone must have mentioned it was the bridge, I doubt an engineer or assistant (Diane?) would presume to make that decision as to the purpose of the piece on their own.  So many questions, so few answers.
12  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Heroes and Villians early version on: October 09, 2019, 11:05:11 AM
I get you - but the single chorus track defiinitely started out as side 2 bridge - am I understanding correctly..?

I interpret the recording activity after the Feb 10 mix differently - The Feb 15/16 sessions with prelude to fade and the tack piano theme and then the Feb 20 Part 2 and Part 2 revised sections seem to me all pieces he was recording in consideration for the B side of the single.  From the Tracy Thomas interview : “I’m doing the final mix on the A side tonight, but I can’t decide what to do on the other side.”   so all this recording was trying to decide what to do on the B side.  Now when he rerecorded the fade Feb 28 and the verse backing March 1, it seems he had rejected the cantina mix and was trying to start over again from the ground up.

According to what was written on the tape box, yes.  But one could always argue that someone misunderstood when they wrote that, and perhaps it was meant to be "part 2" even though it was written as "side two."  I don't think an engineer would misunderstand "bridge" though.
13  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Heroes and Villians early version on: October 09, 2019, 10:59:11 AM
As for the single chorus being "Heroes bridge" of course we don't know what sections it was supposed to be bridging.  The single chorus is just the same tack piano theme Brian had recorded twice, but on harpsichord with percussion and strings overdubbed.  He'd already recorded the "Gee" followed by the various Heroes sections, presumably for the B side of the single.  There is a mono mix done of Gee followed by the various sections in the usual order but with the "Swedish frog" animal sounds from Part 3 cut out of the tape.  Was this supposed to go in its' place?  If so I would think he would have recorded it as an "insert" or as Heroes Part 3 or 4.  Or was it meant to follow Part 4 to bridge something else, before Prelude to Fade? It's all conjecture at this point.

14  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Heroes and Villians early version on: October 09, 2019, 10:46:38 AM
I interpret the recording activity after the Feb 10 mix differently - The Feb 15/16 sessions with prelude to fade and the tack piano theme and then the Feb 20 Part 2 and Part 2 revised sections seem to me all pieces he was recording in consideration for the B side of the single.  From the Tracy Thomas interview : “I’m doing the final mix on the A side tonight, but I can’t decide what to do on the other side.”   so all this recording was trying to decide what to do on the B side.  Now when he rerecorded the fade Feb 28 and the verse backing March 1, it seems he had rejected the cantina mix and was trying to start over again from the ground up.
15  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Heroes and Villians early version on: October 09, 2019, 10:19:46 AM

Hi BR - in the notes in the box set the chorus is logged as 'part 2' not 'side 2'.

In the single it is indeed part 2.

Could have been both - part 2 of side 2..?


 "the chorus, for example, was tracked with a different master number (57045 vs. 57020) and was marked as "Heroes bridge" and as "Heroes and Villains side 2."  

The master # corresponds to Heroes Part 2 but writing on the tape box, confirmed by Alan, is “Heroes bridge with spooky low strings and percussion” and “Heroes and Villains Side Two."
16  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Heroes and Villians early version on: October 09, 2019, 10:16:37 AM
Also this seems to have been a sections try out for the A side in Jan:

verse edit experiment/bridge to indians/indians(i.e. BR) - unless anyone thinks 'indians' could have been something else..?

Bridge to indians ends on a C sharp chord.

I suppose it could be argued that verse edit experiment was for the B side..?

I don't think so.  Despite the different master number I think this was tried as a replacement for IIGS for "Part 2" of Heroes, as cantina had previously been considered a part 2 (and the Dec "intro" part 3).
17  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Heroes and Villians early version on: October 08, 2019, 11:20:57 AM
There's some evidence the "so long to the city . . . fit with the stuff" was written in December - an eyewitness recalls it being attempted in December but abandoned at that time because of "resistance" - not that we need to go into the whole Mike Love vs the lyrcs situation.

I look at the recording of Prelude to Fade and the "chorus" differently - the chorus, for example, was tracked with a different master number (57045 vs. 57020) and was marked as "Heroes bridge" and as "Heroes and Villains side 2."  Prelude was recorded under the original master number but I interpret the multiple sections he was recording at this time as sections for a part 2 or side 2 of the single.  Chuck remembers mixing a 2 sided single in February.  On February 10th Brian told reporter Tracy Thomas “I’m doing the final mix on the A side tonight, but I can’t decide what to do on the other side.” The final mix of the A side was the “cantina” mix.  So he needed to come up with a B side and immediately started recording new sections and variations on the Heroes theme.  At some point - perhaps when he started re-recording the Heroes verse music and then the Fade, and then an "intro to Part 2" - Brian had lost the thread and the cantina version had been rejected.  That's when he put Heroes aside and announced Vegetables as the next single and held multiple sessions in April, enough to complete the single but then again left it only partially assembled.
18  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Heroes and Villians early version on: October 08, 2019, 07:37:39 AM
At the time of the piano demo in November the song consisted of the two verses, IIGS, and then "another section" Barnyard, which was likely planned as the final section/fade (as it was replaced by the similar "false Barnyard" or tag to Old Master Painter in the Feb cantina version).  What we don't know is what was between IIGS and Barnyard, but Brian mentioned "we're still working" so clearly what was to go in the middle was still undecided.  The December acetate reveals that one edit Brian was considering was IIGS (new version)/"my children were raised . . . healthy wealthy and often wise" fast section/Heroes shortened verse (for "three score and five").  I have to think Brian would also have included an a capella section as he did in both cantina and the final version, most likely (considering the Dec acetate) right after the three score and five.  So we have:

verses/IIGS/children were raised/three score and five/a capella/Barnyard

The Dec "intro" was recorded as Heroes Part 3 so the only place it could go based on the above would be after the a capella section and before Barnyard.
19  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Durrie Parks 'Great Shape' H&V acetate on: September 30, 2019, 07:22:03 AM
Week the single choruses are in a minor key while the Worms  erosion is a major key.  There’s those Brian/Mike verse co-leads that are edited into the Worms Bicyclerider music - and they just don’t work.  Brian must have heard that and went for Cantina instead.
20  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Surf's Up Question on: September 17, 2019, 05:04:06 PM
  the technology to do Plan B, synching Up Brian’s 66 piano demo vocal to the 66 track, and make it sound good, just didn’t exist yet.  So that was what was done for the Smile Sessions box mono version - and the stereo included on the box set vinyl I believe.
21  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Surf's Up Question on: September 17, 2019, 10:58:55 AM
If you check wikipedia for the song surf's Up basically all your questions are answered.

1966
Nov 4 - basic track for Part 1
Nov 7 - brass overdubs for Part 1
this version was released on the Good Vibrations box set extra disc

Dec 15 - Beach boys vocal session, results junked, followed by the Brian piano/double tracked demo version - released on GV box set, TSS box set
Dec 17 - solo piano version in Brian's house taped for Inside Pop, appears in Endless Harmony documentary and I believe also in An American Band - but missing the first verse

1967
Jan 23 - mysterious instrumental session presumably for Part 2, tape is lost
November - piano/vocal version recorded during Wild Honey sessions found at end of Country Air session tape, released on TSS box set and on Made in California (different edit of takes from TSS) and on Sunshine Tomorrow (additional false starts included)

1971
vocals (Carl's lead and backing vocals added to Nov 67 Part 1 track), vocals and instrumental overdubs (mostly synthesizer) added to second half of Dec 15 piano demo
June 18 - session at Sunset for the song, unknown if for vocals or instruments or both
June 18-July - vocal and instrumental sessions at the home studio, vocal coda added incorporating "Child" with Brian and Jack Riely's input
This 1971 version released on Surf's Up

2011
For the Smile Sessions box a mono mashup of Part 1 from 1971 with Brian's vocal off the Dec 15 piano/demo version, removing Carl's lead vocal except for a couple of lines not sung by Brian on the demo, the rest from the 1971 version

22  Smiley Smile Stuff / Smile Sessions Box Set (2011) / Re: TSS - All things Child is father ...... on: September 13, 2019, 06:59:38 AM
Just some thoughts about this track since I've started tinkering/mixing/etc with Smile for the millionth time a few weeks ago.


So, all 'revelations' put together, what I think is both historically and musically a very satisfying edit of this personal favourite song:

Verse/chorus/verse/chorus/bridge/(half-)chorus/FADE.

Just wanted it to share with some of you who might still be reading these threads.

PS: this 'fade-out' thing made me turn down the volume of the last notes of Wonderful as well. The bass notes are brought forward in the 2011 mix, with echo and all, but  in all seriousness, it would have been a strange ending to the song. In my opinion it would have been a short fade out, just making it to end of the last backing vocals (won-won, won-won...). Much more likely and musically 'logical', I think.



This mix choice is essentially the same as Brian's mono instrumental mix from 1966, except you take out the chorus that starts off the song and you fade rather than have a cold ending.  It's important to note that Brian chose to have a cold ending rather than a fade, but of course we can't know what he would have done with the end after adding vocals and doing the final mix.
23  Smiley Smile Stuff / Smile Sessions Box Set (2011) / Re: TSS - All things Cabinessence on: September 12, 2019, 11:34:07 AM
 listening to that extraction I could swear I hear the lyrics “rock and Roll” in there rather than load off the road.
24  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Wrinkles from Country Love - High Quality Version on: August 28, 2019, 08:48:22 AM
That's my channel BTW, thanks to Dylan for finding it! I'm working on uploading the entire album onto YouTube as we speak!

If you have Mike Love, Not War (the 2003 album, not the song from Unleash the Love) I'd love to hear that on youtube!

Country Love - Brand New Start and Rock and Roll Country Bride are listenable - the rest is pretty awful.  Much better stuff on First Love.
25  Smiley Smile Stuff / General On Topic Discussions / Re: Mike working on yet another new album on: August 01, 2019, 09:13:05 AM
For a new record, there has been very limited conversation about this release in any of the usual online BB's places.


I think Mike made his artistic statement with Unleash the Love. The majority of songs on disc one were new songs - at least to fans like me who don't have access to every bootleg or unreleased tape. I bought Unleash the Love, and enjoyed hearing what Mike could come up with this late in the game. I listened to the Christmas album, but I didn't feel I needed to add it to my collection. And the new one, not really interested. Wondering if maybe Mike had a 3 album deal and recorded this one just to get something out? Whatever, I guess it's impressive that he's putting stuff out. I don't see Brian or Al rushing to get anything new out. How long did it take Al to record Postcards? Maybe we can expect a followup when Al's 90.  Undecided

There's no doubt Unleash the Love - essentially a reworked "Mike Love Not War" - is Mike's best solo project, with some good self-written songs, even if the production is somewhat sterile.  It's unfortunate it took so long for it to become a reality because his voice was so much better when Mike Love Not War was recorded.  His voice sounded really bad on the Christmas album Reason for the Season but with the magic of autotune and who knows what else actually sounded a little improved on 12 Sides of  Summer.
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