Who's to say what's "constructive" or not on here?

Sometimes only a few words are just as effective as a term paper length post/reply.

There tends to be a "HOW DARE YOU QUESTION ME?!!!!!!!!?" attitude that creeps up from time to time on this board and it's utter bullshite and deserves to be called out whenever someone has the tenacity.

That's crossing the line and I don't appreciate it at all. If you have a problem just say it to me directly and cut the veiled personal insult routine. If you can't do that, or if you have no rational or appropriate way to reply to things that have been written by me or anyone else here, then consider dropping the kind of stuff that you just posted here entirely. If you can't discuss these things even in a heated debate kind of way without going to veiled personal insults against me or anyone else, you'll get called out like you were in other threads by posters other than me when the same stuff went down and you did the same routine.  It's not welcome, it's not funny or cool, and I promise I'm done with it for good this time. And others might be as well, but that's just speculation.

And if you don't like my paper length replies, don't read them. Your call. But don't patronize or insult me for writing what I want to write or how I want to write it. It's an open forum here, and if people have a problem with what I write here or the length or content of my posts, get in touch, let me know, and we'll talk. Or just don't read them. Plenty of words on this board to entertain, plenty of cool photos too.

Your call. Just don't drag me or how I contribute here into it. And try to man up and just come out with it directly if you do have an issue instead of using hit-and-run terms like "term paper length replies".

Guitarfool, you're one of the best posters on this board as far as I can see. I applaud you for sticking up for yourself here--you've done nothing but intelligently argue your position which is what this board should be for.

I say just ignore Pinder. He has a tendency to drag arguments on unnecessarily to the point where they become absolutely ridiculous. One of the reasons I stopped coming here for a few months was because he kept dragging me into this stupid fight about Mike Love. I wasn't being unfair or going out of my way to diss the man, but god forbid anyone have a different opinion. I wouldnt have even minded that so much if he hadn't joined in on the public taunting when I tried bumping a few older SMiLE threads--if we disagree on a topic, that's no big deal, but to join the crowd and put me down personally as a result was pretty petty I thought. I've been accused by others of not accepting criticism, so I think that last paragraph may also be a barb at me too. Which, if it is, I think it's really unfair and uncalled for. Basically what I'm saying is, he's not worth your time to argue with. Even when you best him, or point out how unreasonable he's acting, he plays the victim and/or acts like you're also in the wrong to the same extent he is. It's truly maddening.

Sorry, Pinder, but that's just my personal experience.

No offense taken, and I am fully aware of how I can come across, and I do try and stave that behavior, which is partly why I take frequent lengthy breaks from his board (I just set myself up for a wealth of barbs here) .... But I've been called out and insulted just as much as you're accusing me of doing, only it seems to be A-OK when it's certain posters doing the calling-out and insulting.... All that said, we ARE discussing things that are highly emotionally charged topics for not just some of us. This needs to be understood. The condescending tone that creeps in is the thing that always ends up getting me going, and I'll stand behind my opinion of it not always being cool.

I debate with great veracity, but I hope I haven't insulted anyone on a personal level. If I do, anyone can feel free to call me out on it, since I obviously don't like to be on the receiving end myself. I wasn't as polite to sweetdudejim as I couldve been on another thread, and it actually benefited both of us I think, when he called me out on it.

I don't think myself or anyone really has crossed the line into simply untenable behavior here on this board (well, aside from some choice personal messages I've received) and different people debate with great veracity in different ways/styles .... What on occasion bothers me with certain lengthy posts/replies is that a feeling comes across that based upon the time and effort taken to compose such posts/replies, this automatically makes disagreement especially prone to being taken as insult, irregardless of the content of said posts/replies or disagreement. I think we've seen ample evidence of this, though it is thankfully rare. But this occasional attitude of this sort of "what business do you have disagreeing with me?" type of thing, usually followed up with "polite" insults at the quality of the disagreer's contributions to the discussion is something I can't help but take issue with. Sometimes people disagree not just to put forth an opposing opinion, but also to learn.

Who's to say what's "constructive" or not on here?

Sometimes only a few words are just as effective as a term paper length post/reply.

There tends to be a "HOW DARE YOU QUESTION ME?!!!!!!!!?" attitude that creeps up from time to time on this board and it's utter bullshite and deserves to be called out whenever someone has the tenacity.

That's crossing the line and I don't appreciate it at all. If you have a problem just say it to me directly and cut the veiled personal insult routine. If you can't do that, or if you have no rational or appropriate way to reply to things that have been written by me or anyone else here, then consider dropping the kind of stuff that you just posted here entirely. If you can't discuss these things even in a heated debate kind of way without going to veiled personal insults against me or anyone else, you'll get called out like you were in other threads by posters other than me when the same stuff went down and you did the same routine.  It's not welcome, it's not funny or cool, and I promise I'm done with it for good this time. And others might be as well, but that's just speculation.

And if you don't like my paper length replies, don't read them. Your call. But don't patronize or insult me for writing what I want to write or how I want to write it. It's an open forum here, and if people have a problem with what I write here or the length or content of my posts, get in touch, let me know, and we'll talk. Or just don't read them. Plenty of words on this board to entertain, plenty of cool photos too.

Your call. Just don't drag me or how I contribute here into it. And try to man up and just come out with it directly if you do have an issue instead of using hit-and-run terms like "term paper length replies".

Guitarfool, you're one of the best posters on this board as far as I can see. I applaud you for sticking up for yourself here--you've done nothing but intelligently argue your position which is what this board should be for.

I say just ignore Pinder. He has a tendency to drag arguments on unnecessarily to the point where they become absolutely ridiculous. One of the reasons I stopped coming here for a few months was because he kept dragging me into this stupid fight about Mike Love. I wasn't being unfair or going out of my way to diss the man, but god forbid anyone have a different opinion. I wouldnt have even minded that so much if he hadn't joined in on the public taunting when I tried bumping a few older SMiLE threads--if we disagree on a topic, that's no big deal, but to join the crowd and put me down personally as a result was pretty petty I thought. I've been accused by others of not accepting criticism, so I think that last paragraph may also be a barb at me too. Which, if it is, I think it's really unfair and uncalled for. Basically what I'm saying is, he's not worth your time to argue with. Even when you best him, or point out how unreasonable he's acting, he plays the victim and/or acts like you're also in the wrong to the same extent he is. It's truly maddening.

Sorry, Pinder, but that's just my personal experience.

No offense taken, and I am fully aware of how I can come across, and I do try and stave that behavior, which is partly why I take frequent lengthy breaks from his board (I just set myself up for a wealth of barbs here) .... But I've been called out and insulted just as much as you're accusing me of doing, only it seems to be A-OK when it's certain posters doing the calling-out and insulting.... All that said, we ARE discussing things that are highly emotionally charged topics for not just some of us. This needs to be understood. The condescending tone that creeps in is the thing that always ends up getting me going, and I'll stand behind my opinion of it not always being cool.

Who's to say what's "constructive" or not on here?

Sometimes only a few words are just as effective as a term paper length post/reply.

There tends to be a "HOW DARE YOU QUESTION ME?!!!!!!!!?" attitude that creeps up from time to time on this board and it's utter bullshite and deserves to be called out whenever someone has the tenacity.

What the f*** are you talking about?

I agree, that yes, sometimes it IS better a few words are just as effective. However, in this instance it wasn't. He was just trying to paint guitarfool as overemotional and out of hand, or something.

Shoot, I don't even know much about guitarfool but he is isn't posting to post or just disagreeing to disagree. He's trying to add to our understanding of past events like a few other posters here. Wish there were more here.

Fair enough but when it's OK for Guitarfool to scream in all caps in hideous exasperation that another poster might dare disagree with him, someone might have the nerve to say "calm down"

and I really can't think of a single other poster here, OSD included (in his moments) who doesn't, even from time to time in the least, add positively to our understanding of the events we love to endlessly discuss.

Who's to say what's "constructive" or not on here?

Sometimes only a few words are just as effective as a term paper length post/reply.

There tends to be a "HOW DARE YOU QUESTION ME?!!!!!!!!?" attitude that creeps up from time to time on this board and it's utter bullshite and deserves to be called out whenever someone has the tenacity.

That's crossing the line and I don't appreciate it at all. If you have a problem just say it to me directly and cut the veiled personal insult routine. If you can't do that, or if you have no rational or appropriate way to reply to things that have been written by me or anyone else here, then consider dropping the kind of stuff that you just posted here entirely. If you can't discuss these things even in a heated debate kind of way without going to veiled personal insults against me or anyone else, you'll get called out like you were in other threads by posters other than me when the same stuff went down and you did the same routine.  It's not welcome, it's not funny or cool, and I promise I'm done with it for good this time. And others might be as well, but that's just speculation.

And if you don't like my paper length replies, don't read them. Your call. But don't patronize or insult me for writing what I want to write or how I want to write it. It's an open forum here, and if people have a problem with what I write here or the length or content of my posts, get in touch, let me know, and we'll talk. Or just don't read them. Plenty of words on this board to entertain, plenty of cool photos too.

Your call. Just don't drag me or how I contribute here into it. And try to man up and just come out with it directly if you do have an issue instead of using hit-and-run terms like "term paper length replies".

"Don't patronize"

That is very good advice.... Advice I suggest we both take.

There is a good deal of hypocrisy in what you're saying regarding crossing lines and inciting conflict, just as there is a bit of arrogance regarding what you consider useful postings or rational arguments, etc etc, but I won't go into it. Treat folks like you want to be treated, ya know?

Those are all fantastic ones!

I actually dig Still Life and Love You Lives by The Stones as well....

Circa 1989, Music from the Elder was one of my favorite albums ever. Yikes. But I am an unabashed KISS fan, in a way. Meaning I fully understand what they were (and weren't), but they were hugely important to me and to rock n roll in the same kind of way the far better received Ramones were. Big dumb catchy pop (hard-)rock. Perfect for adolescent boys.

I usually use Cheap Trick as a gateway drug for non KISS fans ..... Both bands are very similar: just great, straight ahead and loose rock n roll with great tunes. I've known a lot of people who love Cheap Trick and hate KISS, so it most usually works.

OK, here are some live albums that I think suck:

Blue Oyster Cult: Extraterrestrial Live
Grateful Dead: Steal Your Face
Creedence: Live In Europe (just not the same without Doug)

I'm a late blooming KISS fanatic!!!

Some older kid on my block growing up convinced me that they were a satanic cult that kidnapped and sacrificed little kids!

I think that has much to do with me kind of avoiding them. Now I can't get enough! I even love The Elder!!

Here's my list.

And I apologize in advance if there's already a thread like this buried someplace.

Blue Oyster Cult: On Your Feet Or On Your Knees
AC/DC: If You Want Blood
Yes: Yessongs
The Velvet Underground: 69
Sam Cooke: Live At The Harlem Square Club
Lou Reed: Take No Prisoners
John Cale: Fragments Of A Rainy Season
The Beach Boys: In Concert
Fairport Convention: Moat On The Ledge
Rick Nelson: Live At The Troubadour
Neil Young & Crazy Horse: Weld
Elvis: Live At Madison Square Garden

Oh man, I could go on and on.

So, it's OK to like island songs just as long as they're not about one called Kokomo?

And somehow island songs are just great but faux Jimmy Buffet songs about islands are not?

And sit-com actors are awesome with Brian and then it's time to turn around and bash Stamos some more?

Yeah, OK.

At least Stamos is cute

[Wild Honey]

Now, tell me again how I'm so f***ed up on thinking Brian has a sonic stamp or trademark that can be identified in his productions when he was involved. And tell me again how the notion of Carl as an inexperienced producer in 1967 and even 1968 who would apply the techniques he had observed and learn from Brian over the previous three or more years in the studio would not come out sounding more like Brian?

Didn`t you name Aren`t You Glad as an example though which Peter Reum then stated wasn`t produced by Brian?

Which surely means that it isn`t quite so simple...

Surely nothing. Peter also originally suggested Carl produced most if not the whole thing. That turned out to be not so simple, either, but you probably missed that since you said nothing about it.     I didn't say Carl produced the whole thing, nor did I say Brian produced the whole thing. But who was still the go-to guy in the band for production decisions and issues, not to mention the only Beach Boy in fall 1967 who could write a song besides Bruce who didn't contribute any songs to the band until the next year? Al? Carl? C'mon. However much or little Brian did on an hourly basis in the studio, go ahead and debate that. But don't write Brian or his influence (and stature) as producer of the band out of the story entirely. He handed it off to Carl, he wanted Carl to become more active that way. Is that saying he bailed out entirely and disappeared? Is that saying we should credit the album to Carl's production skills? That's simple, no...it's common sense. No.

Read the Preiss book for some quotes from Jim Lockert who engineered Wild Honey, quotes from Carl, etc. Among the quotes:

Carl is quoted as saying Brian was the one who wanted to move the band into an R&B direction with the album. Sounds like a producer's call, that one, before they even started the actual recording. Remember there was some harsh criticism of the band and the vocal sound they were known for at the time...Brian most likely wanted to toughen up their sound a bit to counter that with R&B. Perhaps? But whose musical call would that have been? Carl? He wasn't writing anything.

Lockert describes the recording process as being close to what he had to do with Smiley Smile. It sounds deceptively simple, that mix, right? And kind of muddy, similar to Smiley? Lockert said WH was done in fragments and pieces, instrumentally and vocally. He says he did the piece-by-piece, section-by-section method of building the tracks from different tapes and takes, like he described on Smiley. That could account for some of the problems in the mix, right? He also described the record making it sound almost like the White Album, where this time each member was bringing some things to the table, ideas, etc. More democratic and open than it had been earlier. That suggests there was that openness vibe happening where the decisions were opened up to the band, and each had ideas. But there was still one guy who was the most skilled at producing a song in the band.

Carl says Brian asked him to get "more involved" in the recording/production of the album, "he was tired" or something like that.

Is that saying Carl produced most if not all of the album? That's already been countered. Is asking Carl to get more involved in the production akin to giving a two-week notice before quitting the job entirely? No. Again, I never made a point that Carl was not involved. My issue was he wasn't as involved as was being suggested.

And thanks for reminding me of "Aren't You Glad"...notice there is a heartbeat rhythm in the drums right when the line "I've got a heart that just won't stop beating for you.". Hmmm...on Don't Talk from Pet Sounds there is a similar heartbeat sound played instrumentally after the line "listen to my heartbeat", that whole thing of Brian using instrumental parts to represent things like heartbeats, or a fire, or water, or railroad spike being hammered in was a musical trip Brian was on at various times in 66-67, and even before using sounds to represent things or ideas.

So much for that stuff about sonic trademarks, right? So if it wasn't Brian himself producing it, and let's say Al or Carl or Bruce were calling the shots on that tune which Brian and Mike wrote (unless that's inaccurate too)...then they were nicking one of Brian's sonic tricks, right?  

Calm down sir.

Seriously, its posts like Nicko's right here that really get me. You have guitarfool discussing the topic at hand, about Brian and how much he produced Wild Honey and whatnot. And he provides quotes and everything to back up his post. And instead of having something constructive to add, Nicko decides to preemptively devalue guitarfool's post buy telling him to "calm down", as if he's really getting out of hand. Plain stupid.

Who's to say what's "constructive" or not on here?

Sometimes only a few words are just as effective as a term paper length post/reply.

There tends to be a "HOW DARE YOU QUESTION ME?!!!!!!!!?" attitude that creeps up from time to time on this board and it's utter bullshite and deserves to be called out whenever someone has the tenacity.

Now, tell me again how I'm so f***ed up on thinking Brian has a sonic stamp or trademark that can be identified in his productions when he was involved. And tell me again how the notion of Carl as an inexperienced producer in 1967 and even 1968 who would apply the techniques he had observed and learn from Brian over the previous three or more years in the studio would not come out sounding more like Brian?

Didn`t you name Aren`t You Glad as an example though which Peter Reum then stated wasn`t produced by Brian?

Which surely means that it isn`t quite so simple...

Surely nothing. Peter also originally suggested Carl produced most if not the whole thing. That turned out to be not so simple, either, but you probably missed that since you said nothing about it.     I didn't say Carl produced the whole thing, nor did I say Brian produced the whole thing. But who was still the go-to guy in the band for production decisions and issues, not to mention the only Beach Boy in fall 1967 who could write a song besides Bruce who didn't contribute any songs to the band until the next year? Al? Carl? C'mon. However much or little Brian did on an hourly basis in the studio, go ahead and debate that. But don't write Brian or his influence (and stature) as producer of the band out of the story entirely. He handed it off to Carl, he wanted Carl to become more active that way. Is that saying he bailed out entirely and disappeared? Is that saying we should credit the album to Carl's production skills? That's simple, no...it's common sense. No.

Read the Preiss book for some quotes from Jim Lockert who engineered Wild Honey, quotes from Carl, etc. Among the quotes:

Carl is quoted as saying Brian was the one who wanted to move the band into an R&B direction with the album. Sounds like a producer's call, that one, before they even started the actual recording. Remember there was some harsh criticism of the band and the vocal sound they were known for at the time...Brian most likely wanted to toughen up their sound a bit to counter that with R&B. Perhaps? But whose musical call would that have been? Carl? He wasn't writing anything.

Lockert describes the recording process as being close to what he had to do with Smiley Smile. It sounds deceptively simple, that mix, right? And kind of muddy, similar to Smiley? Lockert said WH was done in fragments and pieces, instrumentally and vocally. He says he did the piece-by-piece, section-by-section method of building the tracks from different tapes and takes, like he described on Smiley. That could account for some of the problems in the mix, right? He also described the record making it sound almost like the White Album, where this time each member was bringing some things to the table, ideas, etc. More democratic and open than it had been earlier. That suggests there was that openness vibe happening where the decisions were opened up to the band, and each had ideas. But there was still one guy who was the most skilled at producing a song in the band.

Carl says Brian asked him to get "more involved" in the recording/production of the album, "he was tired" or something like that.

Is that saying Carl produced most if not all of the album? That's already been countered. Is asking Carl to get more involved in the production akin to giving a two-week notice before quitting the job entirely? No. Again, I never made a point that Carl was not involved. My issue was he wasn't as involved as was being suggested.

And thanks for reminding me of "Aren't You Glad"...notice there is a heartbeat rhythm in the drums right when the line "I've got a heart that just won't stop beating for you.". Hmmm...on Don't Talk from Pet Sounds there is a similar heartbeat sound played instrumentally after the line "listen to my heartbeat", that whole thing of Brian using instrumental parts to represent things like heartbeats, or a fire, or water, or railroad spike being hammered in was a musical trip Brian was on at various times in 66-67, and even before using sounds to represent things or ideas.

So much for that stuff about sonic trademarks, right? So if it wasn't Brian himself producing it, and let's say Al or Carl or Bruce were calling the shots on that tune which Brian and Mike wrote (unless that's inaccurate too)...then they were nicking one of Brian's sonic tricks, right?  

Aren't You Glad never utters the word "heartbeat" so I hardly think Dennis playing "duh duh"  after "I got a heart" (also played after "I got a love" and also in the instrumental sections) is some Brian trick related to Don't Talk, To claim so with any assurance is just as far reaching as anything else ever cast off on this board. Maybe they nicked the idea from Eddie Floyd's "Knock On Wood" ("bah bah bah") released the previous year. Were The Stones nicking an Eddie Floyd trick by doing the "bah bah" on the snare after Mick asks "Can't you hear me knocking"? ..... Were Men At Work nicking Brian, Eddie Wood, and Stones ideas when their drummer went "bah bah bah" after Colin Hay asks "Who can it be knocking at my door"?

I don't hear Brian's "sonic stamp" in any defining way on much of Wild Honey at all...... Frankly, the album sounds like total shite (sonically, not material-wise) , and little like anything the band had ever done before, which I might be tempted to prescribe to a newbie like Carl doing much of the work (along with Al, Bruce) Unless we're just gonna round up and count bass, drums, guitar, keys, vocals, other instruments being recorded in any configuration by the Beach Boys as being evidence of Brian's sonic stamp. The dominating "sonic stamp" on that album, to me, is the organ and piano, which wasn't all Brian all the time, right? Carl had obviously learned much by the time of I Can Hear Music. I don't think it's fair to say he was simply aping Brian's sonic tricks because ......... why wouldn't he want the track to sound like it was ......... The Beach Boys? That was his job: to carry on the tradition. It was going to sound like Brian's "sonic tricks" no matter what with Carl Wilson singing lead anyway. This is like saying that Brian has spent his entire career simply aping Phil Spector. Brian didn't write the song or produce the track, so the credit goes to Carl. If Brian was there and making suggestions, then sure: but then wouldn't this sort of thing, in respect, have made the other Beach Boys, The Wrecking Crew, Chuck Britz, and Murray part of this sonic stamp from day one?

Missed not just the point, but several points. If you don't hear what I describe as Brian's sonic stamp, let's call it the "vibe" of the tracks he produced to simplify the term, I'd suggest listening to the differences. Some people have and do, to the point of teaching college-level classes on the way Brian made records.

The Brian legacy and reputation some don't want to see magnified is, in fact, deserved, and the reasons why can mostly be found on the Capitol label from the 60's. Orange swirl for 45's, rainbow and black for albums.  

Next point.

Carl was basically serving an apprenticeship and learning on the job under his brother's mentorship in the studio. I'll chalk some of this up to a misunderstanding of the term "producer" and producing a record as it was defined in the 60's. And even by the late 60's, that definition changed. Subject for another discussion.

What do you think that Smile-era track "Tune X" was for Carl? Plans were in the works to allow band members to bring in artists and produce them for Brother in '67, just as Apple Records tried to become in 1968. Did Carl ever produce a record before Tune X? Did Carl even write, arrange, or do anything but perform on a Beach Boys record or song before 1967? Tune X wasn't even a record, necessarily, I always saw that as Carl's entry into the producer's chair in the studio, call it "on the job training" and call the session and resulting track an experiment. He had been observing Brian, Brian had been showing him the ropes so to speak, now when he was ready to try out a full session on his own, he got "Tune X".

Seriously, is it any accident that Carl's first production sounds exactly like a Smile track like his brother Brian had been cutting over the previous months? Again, where am I going wrong to the point where that's being argued?

If you learn how to make violins under an apprenticeship with a master violin craftsman, what do you think your first attempt at making a violin will look like? Could it be that you're going to apply what you've been learning and observing from your mentor, and copying certain elements and styles of work when you do get your chance to try it on your own?

Now, tell me again how I'm so f***ed up on thinking Brian has a sonic stamp or trademark that can be identified in his productions when he was involved. And tell me again how the notion of Carl as an inexperienced producer in 1967 and even 1968 who would apply the techniques he had observed and learn from Brian over the previous three or more years in the studio would not come out sounding more like Brian?

Whether it's painful to admit or not, there are thousands if not more professional producers, engineers, musicians, arrangers, etc who recognize and can identify and even analyze Brian's "sound" on his productions.

How and why is this a point of dispute?  

OK, well, I guess you can chalk up one producer, arranger, singer, musician, writer, who doesn't exactly dispute your points or miss them, but simply sees it as a bit more shaded. That's all.... Yes, Brian has a "sonic stamp" ..... Problem is, this sonic stamp is too wrapped up in the identity of The Beach Boys to really be an all too identifiable thing somehow removed from the voices and talents of the other Beach Boys or the players on his cuts. My point with Wild Honey is that, aside from maybe Darlin, nothing on the album (not even hardcore Brian tracks like I'd Love Just Once To See You) especially sound like anything he'd done before. This just means that both others had a serious hand in the song construction, arranging, playing, and producing, and that Brian's own "sonic stamp" is more versatile and sneaky than people tend to seem to want to allow it to be. This has always been a disservice to Brian, I feel. People seem to want to bully him and history into conforming to something that, in a large part, does not exist in any clear cut, black & white form. Which is fine, but you can't sit there and state opinions and impressions as solid fact when these supposed solids break down upon inspection. And someone disagreeing with you in part is not necessarily them missing all your points. Humans have the ability to disagree without that necessitating missing points. It's not a matter of not wanting Brian's legacy to not be magnified. What on earth would be the motivation behind that? Some people just don't like seeing it inflated beyond reason until it comes off as nothing but a cage ..... Sure people teach classes on how Brian makes records, but they also teach classes on how Bob Dylan makes records, and Bob Dylan did everything he could to not make records in any way someone would bother trying and teaching, yet they do it anyway. Big deal. I don't understand how everything has to be HOW THE HELL AM I WRONG?? on this board. Like it or not, but we can intellectualize music and how it's made in every which way/direction/spirit possible, and this truth leads to wildly varying impressions, feelings, views, personal experiences with the music.

Now, this is JUST MY OPINION, but as a listener: Brian's "sonic stamp" up until Pet Sounds was to basically take garage-band basic tracks by The Boys and more fleshed out Wrecking Crew bass/drums/guitar/keys tracks and spruce them up with extra instruments and production flourishes ...... Aside from the songwriting (many co-writes) and production flourishes/extra arrangements, these were basically rock n roll tracks with the player's personalities and Beach Boy voices doing much of the work as an end result. No knock in the slightest against Brian. This is awesome stuff. Nothing but oodles of goodness to love ... Then comes Pet Sounds/SMILE ..... if anything: THIS is Brian's clearly identifiable sonic stamp ...... Wild Honey, to me, sounds like we're back to the garage band days with The Boys and with little vocal arranging or extra instrument flourish. It sounds like a band with Brian Wilson as a member. And it sounds clearly like someone else produced the thing. Yeah, it sounds like Brian because he's there, this is The Beach Boys, but it doesn't sound like anything that came before. So Carl did much of the production? Big deal. I wish Brian had done the full deal on it and that it sounded as full and lush as Friends (and album chock full of Brian's sonic stamp) but I love the thing  just the same ........

So, I guess what I REALLY meant is that, sure Brian has a sonic-stamp (that can be dissected, interpreted/recognized in varying ways) but it's not clearly evident in any obvious way on Wild Honey. And it certainly doesn't sound like anyone trying to ape him. To my ears, and maybe mine only, by this time, each Beach Boy (Carl and Dennis especially) was rapidly developing their own identities that were quite removed from much if not most of what had come before. For example: much of the Production work on Surf's Up, CATP, Holland, and to an extent, certain Sunflower cuts don't really smack of Brian much at all. Again, big deal. Brian's still a genius.

Do yourselves a favor and listen to other tracks posted by this band. Good stuff! And I never like anything!

A prominent vocal part on California Girls!! Part of that sacred vocal trio on GOD ONLY KNOWS!!!!!!!!! .... Disney Girls!!!

Bruce wipes his arse with this thread on those credentials alone.

All the ones who are alive and not named David.

I don't hear Brian's "sonic stamp" in any defining way on much of Wild Honey at all...... Frankly, the album sounds like total shite (sonically, not material-wise) , and little like anything the band had ever done before, which I might be tempted to prescribe to a newbie like Carl doing much of the work (along with Al, Bruce) Unless we're just gonna round up and count bass, drums, guitar, keys, vocals, other instruments being recorded in any configuration by the Beach Boys as being evidence of Brian's sonic stamp. The dominating "sonic stamp" on that album, to me, is the organ and piano, which wasn't all Brian all the time, right? Carl had obviously learned much by the time of I Can Hear Music. I don't think it's fair to say he was simply aping Brian's sonic tricks because ......... why wouldn't he want the track to sound like it was ......... The Beach Boys? That was his job: to carry on the tradition. It was going to sound like Brian's "sonic tricks" no matter what with Carl Wilson singing lead anyway. This is like saying that Brian has spent his entire career simply aping Phil Spector. Brian didn't write the song or produce the track, so the credit goes to Carl. If Brian was there and making suggestions, then sure: but then wouldn't this sort of thing, in respect, have made the other Beach Boys, The Wrecking Crew, Chuck Britz, and Murray part of this sonic stamp from day one?

But unless that overcorrection is the desired sound, the engineer will try to make it as transparent and inaudible of an "effect" as possible on a vocal track.

So I guess that means... Thomas intentionally made the vocals on the live album sound like robotic sh*t ?

pretty much . Guess he thought it sounded good.

Well, T-Pain fans did snatch it up by the boatload ........... right? .........

I will let Brian Wilson himself answer guitarfool's Wild Honey question….In a January 2013 interview in Uncut Magazine, Brian shared that "It was always a challenge for me to live up to my name. It was a really big thing for me. People expected me to come up with great orchestral stuff all the time and it became a burden. I was getting tired of it. It still happens, too, but you just learn to live with it.  So the other guys started getting more into the production side of things. Carl [Wilson] really got into that. And we decided to make a rhythm ’n ’blues record. We consciously made a simpler album. It was just a little R’n’B and soul. It certainly wasn’t like a regular Beach Boys record. It was good to go back to the boogie-woogie piano I’d grown up with. Dear old Dad [Murry Wilson] taught me how to play that stuff when I was young. In its way, it’s very nostalgic. And we used the theremin again for 'Wild Honey'. Carl had fun singing on that."

Regarding Friends, the tracks that Brian has said that he recorded in past interviews are Diamond Head, Busy Doin' Nothin', Passing By (he left this unfinished), Friends, Transcendental Meditation, and Be Here In the Morning. Mixdown production was by Carl Wilson. Friends was not issued in Mono in the USA.

Not to sound rude, but I don't see how that quote states or even implies that Carl produced Wild Honey.

Brian directly implies, no states, that Carl and the other Beach Boys got more involved with the production end of things, at the time of Wild Honey. Especially Carl!

It's not saying CARL PRODUCED WILD HONEY, but when you're the creative leader/producer of a band and you directly state, that beginning with THIS album the other band members, especially this one guy, starting getting more involved in the production side ...... it at least clearly implies that each and every note on the album was not thanks solely to that unique Brian thing.

I don't hear any autotune, just about 1500 Brian vocal "double" tracks that he's singing over.

Same here

Better than one Brian track and 1500 Fosketts 

They made THE perfect choice.

Huge congrats

I don't hear any autotune, just about 1500 Brian vocal "double" tracks that he's singing over.

Be careful when you're running through those California hills, or you might trip on a mound of dirt that hides several thousand unsold/returned cases of Summer In Paradise CD's...I think they were buried there by some hapless rack-jobber who tried to hard-sell the album to his area's big retail buyers as a "can't miss", then had to make a similar run for the hills when it stiffed and they came callin' ...  

I honestly don't care what Stamos does or doesn't do with the Beach Boys at this point. The tipping point was already reached by the early 2000's that had nothing to do with live concerts.

Might there be a Japanese vinyl copy or two among those CDs??

I was just being an ass. The track, and Zooey, sound great to my ears?

Any event holds just as much truth and unique perspective from any/all parties involved. Anderle and Vosse's statements are key, but they were not the only people involved. If this were a trial (for the murder of SMILE) would the jury be instructed to ONLY take their testimony into consideration? Of course not! The accused would also either take the stand or be equally represented. And in the case of SMILE it would doubtlessly be a hung jury....

Brian just posted a little clip of him recording vocals for "On the Island" on his Instagram. Sounds pretty awesome to my ears!!!!

Hmm, if this song is called 'On the Island', then maybe the concept is that it is ... 'Pleasure Island'!  

Well there is that interview Zooey did with Brian where he blurts out "you're real pretty" at the end

And there is where having someone like Zooey sing on it is a cool thing. She has the personality, the vibe, and the style to pull off a song like that convincingly...picture her wearing one of those 50's dresses she's fond of, and a flower in her hair, and that whole Tiki-retro-vintage vibe (replete with ukelele) and it's a song for her personality.

Honestly...the opposite of that, as in having, say, Brian sing one of those island-flavored cha-chas on previous solo projects is what didn't work as well for me. I heard a small handful of Zooey's notes, and the vibe felt better.

Soooooooooo it's ok for a cheeseball sitcom actress to sing on a Brian Wilson album but it's not ok for a cheesy sitcom actor to sing/play with The Beach Boys?

OK, I'm running for the hills......