The Smiley Smile Message Board

So, besides Jules Siegel's article, is there anyone else who can verify that this indeed happened? That he came back and then left again? Exact months are pretty much non-existent. He must have left late December/Early January, as the infamous CE vocal sessions were in December. When exactly did he come back, and why did he leave again? It seems like if he came back, he'd stick it out? So the story as we have it now is, he left because he was pissed about being questioned about his lyrics. Then, a month (or whenever) later he comes back, worked on (?), and then left again after (?) to do his solo album. Something about that doesn't add up for me. If he came back it would have been early '67, and by that point Brian was just working on a couple of songs to use for singles. So basically Van came back just to work on Vege Tables lyrics? Seems like he would have just left for good after getting upset about his lyrics being questioned, and wouldn't come back.

I too would love to know more about this, Maybe we will hear the whole story when Smile Comes out this summer...Hopefully!!!

Van Dyke seems to consider himself leaving either early around the recording of Fire or late during the lawsuit. He is at recording sessions in February so maybe he actually does consider himself leaving twice or he only considered himself a visitor after quitting in November. Maybe he feels he quit the scene due to weirdness in November but didn't quit the job until late February when asked for clarification of a line.

Working purely from memory (brainfade warning...) I recall VDP quit when questioned about the "Cabin Essence" tag lyric by Mike (who nonetheless then turned in a sterling performance of same), which would indicate a window somewhere between December 6th & 15th 1966. The latter date can be ruled out as there's not even the most cryptic reference to any such conflict in Oppenheim's reel notes, so that further narrows it down to between the 6th and the 11th (granted there was also a vocal session on 10/11, but given that session is logged as "Home On The Range", unlikely, especially as he was there on 11/4 for the "H&V/IIGS/Barnyard" 'demo' session).  I gather he left for the 2nd time when offered a solo deal by Warners.

When the Beach Boys returned from tour, they were a bit confused about the new project, about the heavy orchestrated music, about the lyrics. It was a déjà-vu what happend during the Pet Sounds Sessions.
But the boys did a couple of vocal sessions and tried to give Brian what he wanted. They gave their best. They even agreed that it would be an idea to perform this kind of music live with an orchestra.
Unfortunately, Brian was unhappy with the results and re-recorded vocal-parts by himself. With Brian's unhappiness about the boys' vocal-work, arguments between Mike and Brian followed.
Murry Wilson - who didn't like the direction since "Good Vibrations", who was worried the boys would lose their image - asked Van Dyke to leave in early - mid December 1966.
After the missed Christmas release date, Brian put his concentration on "Heroes & Villains", the new single. Van Dyke was still very involved. But as the work went on and on without an end on the horizon, Van Dyke and Brian started more and more to disharmonise , they would have arguments and fights. Then, Van Dyke Parks got the chance to do an arrangement for the "Mojo Man", had other new projects in the pocket and left in the midst of the H&V sessions. Brian tried to sign him to Brother Records and offered to produce him, but Van Dyke knew now that wouldn't work.
Brian continued alone, but without Van Dyke, soon lost more and more interest.

Found this too, It may be helpful for this?
http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=240888&page=23

The Smile sessions commenced in earnest in early October 1966: the next major tour - to Europe - started on October 25th in Paris. While they were away, Brian held seven sessions, mostly for "Surf's Up" and "Vega-tables". The BB then did a US/Canada tour November 16th-24th, during which time no sessions were held.


I'd like to see a source for the 'orchestra' bit of that... and the vocal sessions followed the November North American tour.


Source again, please.


Murry, who was barred from the band's sessions since the infamous "Rhonda" episode and had no direct business connection save for the publishing, asked Brian's main collaborator to leave in order to maintain their image ?  Again, source please.


VDP was offered his solo deal in February 1967, the same month the Mojo Men's 45 he co-produced with Lenny Waronker and played piano on was released (so it was obviously recorded some time earlier).


Source, please.

one of my favorite parts of the beautiful dreamer documentary was when van dyke was saying "brian thought i was a big enough guy to guard the door, i wasn't a big enough guy.  And that is a great regret".  

Andrew, the sources for all this are the extremely accurate 1969 memories (http://thebeachboys.ch/Forum/viewtopic.php?p=4249#4249) of Michael Vosse.

Where can I see them ?  He's certainly wrong about the tours/vocal sessions timing bit.

Certainly not everything is correct, like the timing of things he remembered, but I think there's some truth behind some of his memories. You can read the article here: http://thebeachboys.ch/Forum/viewtopic.php?p=4249#4249

I agree and that December date could be if you assume the question had to happen at the time of the lyric recording, or it could have been earlier as Van Dyke has intimated around Fire. But to me Van Dyke put his leaving as precipitated by the question about a line of lyric at the time of his departure and the time of his departure at time of the lawsuit which would be much later [late February].

For some reason, I thought he left once b/c of the lyric argument, then came back, but only as a hired gun and no longer an equal partner.

Does anyone know if the Vosse Fusion article is included in Priore's Look! Listen! Vibrate! Smile! book?

Thanks for that... reading now...

OK, he's got Brian recording "Fire" & "Wind Chimes" while the band are in Europe: unless there are sessions we don't know about (and that's unlikely), he's wrong on that.

I'm not being picky for the sake of it, but when someone's memory doesn't stack up against documented facts, you have to question that memory (which, btw, at this point was over two years old). Here - firstly he says VDP was going to work with The Mojo Men, then a couple of paragraphs later it's Harper's Bizarre. Now as it happens, he worked with both of them, but at differing times, the latter a good few months after he left Brian for the second time. You see my point ?

OK, just double checked, and unless my eyesight is worse that I think it is, nowhere in that article is there anything about Murry asking VDP to leave. If I'm missing it, please point me at it.

Yes, I do. No, it isn't.  :)

I found it odd that in that article, he doesn't mention the episode where Brian hears 'Strawberry Fields Forever' the first time and pulls over, and makes a comment about how 'The Beatles have already  done what I wanted to do'.

 And at this point, AGD will say 'I'll say it again: The Vosse article was more interesting for what he didn't say, then what he did say'.  ;)

I'm pretty sure VDP never thought of himself as an equal partner...I recall him commenting more than once (in the eighties and later) that he was strictly a hired gun...for instance, when demonstrating how they wrote "Heroes & Villains". he said Brian had the complete melody, and he was hired to supply the words, plain and simple, and so he did.

Vosse: final observation... aside from his timeline problems, you have to question his credibility when he say something as ridiculous as this:

"The recording of it ["Cabinessence"] is all new, because before his ear operation about a year ago, Brian could not hear in stereo"

Apart from his assuming that, because it's in stereo, Brian's operation was successful, he's also assuming that because it's stereo it's an all new recording, both assumptions being entirely erroneous. It also raises a worrying supposition on our behalf - that despite being an insider for much of the Smile era and listening to the music on a weekly, if not daily, basis, just over two years later Vosse cannot remember "Cabin Essence" well enough to realise that, with the exception of Carl's lead vocal, none of is "all new". Had the interview been conducted in, say, late 1967, I'd feel happier about the quality of his recall.

It still blows my mind that the whole SMiLE saga took place in only a matter of months. When you read about  the different things that happened, how the boys would be home, then go out on tour again, come back home, Brian was getting involved in this, that and the other thing, all of these events took place, and really the whole deal was only about 6 months long.

I think you're being too harsh on Vosse.He didn't have access to Smile bootlegs in the sixties. He couldn't listen to the songs over and over again like we can now. So he thinks that "Cabinessence" was rerecorded because it was mastered different and made it into stereo. Big deal. Keep in mind, he's no expert in the area of music. He's just a fan. And if the Beach Boys could get away with saying "Time To Get Alone" was rerecorded, what's so unreasonable about Vosse's assumption? For all we know, Brian Wilson himself told Vosse that "Cabinessence" was redone in stereo to brag about his "surgically corrected" ear.

You don't think Wilson lies to people about details? Read a couple interviews with Wilson and you'll see that he loves to lie about details.

Also, it's an unreasonable to expect people to remember the exact dates of events years after the fact. Think of how many years it took you to put together the timeline on your website. And you expect people to just remember that stuff off of the top of their heads? I mean, AGD - do you remember what you ate for breakfast Monday morning, January 10, 2011? I bet you can't. And, for me, that throws your ability to remember and compile any kind of data into doubt.

Does that make any sense? Was that a reasonable assumption on my part? No and no again. But that's the kind of logic you continually use to attack people like Vosse or Al Jardine, people who were actually there. I don't that's the right approach to take this kind of information, and if anything, it only encourages these people to not talk about these things at all.

Dang!

Not attacking them - just putting their reminiscences into a framework where we can weigh their worth, and also pointing out that said recollections should not be taken as gospel by anyone, including yours truly.  Someone here made a post that contained some very definitive statements that didn't ring any bells with me and included one that was almost certainly untrue (Murry/VDP), so I requested sources, to which the reply was "Andrew, the sources for all this are the extremely accurate 1969 memories of Michael Vosse."  I re-read those memories and, aside from the Murry/VDP claim not being mentioned at all, I demonstrated that in a purely factual reading, some of those memories were far from "extremely accurate". It's what researchers do - sift out such information as you have to get closer to what actually happened. If you read some of my very old articles, going back to the late 1970s, you'd wet yourselves laughing: for example, I wrote, with the utmost conviction, that while Brian had started the Spring sessions tentatively, his confidence grew and the later sessions saw him working with interest and involvement. As it turned out, that was only 100% incorrect.  ;D

Question: assuming (with no good evidence) that Brian was still in contact with Vosse in late 1968, why would he tell him the operation was a success when you'd only have to be in his company for a few minutes to realise it was nothing of the sort ?  I know, I'm applying logic to the world of The Beach Boys. I think Vosse's impressions of what the music was like, and what the scene was around Brian, are hugely valuable (as is the revelation that Nick Kent's article for the NME in 1975 lifted huge parts of the Fusion piece almost wholesale)... but when you stack up his version of events against a timeline of documented sessions, tours and releases, it's not a very good fit. And if you're going to do this sort of thing to the best of your ability, "not a very good fit" isn't acceptable. As the mythical Mr. S. Holmes once pointed out, "when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth".  And as regards The Beach Boys, the truth can be very improbable indeed.

I don't know why, but I thought Brian didn't go through with the surgery.


:lol Well, it was backwards (started off good then petered out), so technically it was "only" 50% incorrect. :D

The one thing that I vehemently disagree with in that article is his claim that the SMiLE cover wasn't very good. I, for one, thinks it's perfect! Except maybe they could have had drawings of the Boys' themselves in the windows.

How do you know those aren't drawings of Brian/Carl/Dennis/Mike, as seen thru the eyes of the artist? ( they're too tall to be Al)  ;)

Separating fact from conjecture and/or hazy memories is REAL important. The BB's written history was ridiculously riddled with bad info due to too many journalist taking people's memories at their word instead of checking their word against the reviewable and documented facts. The principals themselves, and those "who were there" are often the worst sources for chronology... and sometimes even the truth. Why? Because people spin things to elevate themselves(human nature), people have certain memories that stick in a certain way... sometimes not having much to do with reality, AND they often have no interest in re-sorting said memories into a factual context because they "were there" (so why should they be questioned by anyone who was not?) etc... Andrew's natural skepticism is a healthy and helpful thing if you are really interested in knowing how things actually went down. Its a process, and he's one of the guys that moves that process along. We all make mistakes, some of us like to correct them. If you prefer fantasy, or partially correct, but less than reliable tales, there are plenty of BB's books and articles from the past that are extremely hit and miss. What I wrote 10 years ago is obsolete now if you ask me...but it still has merit if you understand the context in which it was written. Same goes for this '69 Vosse recollection. I think what Andrew is saying is yeah its an important article, but take it with a grain of salt because its old, it has serious inconsistencies, and the reason we know that now is because we're shining the light on stuff, giving it a sober evaluation, and trying to learn more as we go.

Good points, Jon. And it seems, especially with SMiLE, everybody wants to believe that there were 2 sides; The Beach Boys, and The Posse. And I don't think it's that simple, no matter how hard Brian's camp (now) tries to make that out to be the case, or how, back in the day (and even now) Anderle and Vosse and Van Dyke seemed to think it was shelved strictly because of the other guys.
The thing is, especially with this material (and I'm sure this has been talked about before), is that EVERY little piece of music, every little conversation that we know took place, every article ever written about SMiLE has been analyzed and torn apart and put back together again so many times. We've worn out our copies of LLVS! trying to get answers.   Sometimes I think we know as much right now as those guys back then did.

I don't think we will ever know as much, because simply put we were not there and nothing beats first hand information. The kind like you'd get, say, driving with Brian Wilson in a car shooting the bull on an average day in late 1966. Remember the auction for the Vosse note with Brian's cryptic words? What in-jokes were being told there? We can quote the exact wording, the type of paper, perhaps the pen that was used but no one but those two will know what it meant. Context is everything.

I still come back to Vosse's Fusion article as one of the best references, and even more still cannot stop thinking about the reasons why Mark Volman shut down as soon as Smile was brought up in an interview. There is SO MUCH information which no one in that scene is talking about, I think.

They say that and stand by that because that was their experience contributing to that opinion. They were with Brian in the studio as he was creating the instrumental tracks, they were hanging out with Brian at parties the other Beach Boys weren't attending, they were with Brian as the Boys were on tour, and they had more of Brian's attention in November and early December 66 when some amazing stuff was happening.

Would Al Jardine have anything valid to say about the Blaine-Vosse-Brian vegetables skits, or any of that stuff which was done as the Boys were out on tour? Did Al even hear it until years later? If you asked Al, as a Beach Boy, what was going on, he'd be less of a source than Vosse or Hal. Context is everything. Who wouldn't take the word of a Beach Boy over a session player and an assistant?

There were two sides, and I'd argue they also saw two different sides of Brian and had different motives for acting as they did: Brian working without the Beach Boys as they toured, and Brian working with the Beach Boys when they returned. There were two camps with different outlooks in late 66/early 67.

The Mojo Men's "Sit Down..." on Reprise was already a Pick Hit on WDRC's survey ending the week of Dec. 26 1966 and Harper's Bizarre's "59th..." for Warner was already a Pick Hit on WLOF's survey of Jan. 27 1967. That seems like Van Dyke was already multitasking at least in December or even earlier.

Van Dyke has said it was AFTER he had FINISHED his work with Brian that he accepted Warners' offer and that was in January '67 and that he was recording Song Cycle from January forward over the course of a few months and that he wrote the songs for Song Cycle as he recorded the album. According to VDP expert Don Richardson, VDP signed the contract on January 6.

Even eyewitnesses interviewed within minutes get the details wrong and I'm still re-reading Vosse's article, but right away it seems like he is sort of starting a story, then free-ranges around, then returns to the story. Not necessarily meaning everything to be in chronological order. Maybe not.

PS. It seems to me that Vosse note we were discussing earlier in another thread might be explained in that interview. What if that note is describing the house Brian had Vosse looking for to be Brothers/Home Movies office described in the interview.

Excellent points all around!  But these two stood out. I have to address the Vosse writing style by comparing it to other rock journalism at the time. There was more of a free-form style in the writing, and I think that was part of the "scene" if you will. I have an old paperback compilation of Rolling Stone's record reviews and that same drifting/floating style can be read there, too, depending on the author. I guess it was a sign of the times, but Vosse's writing style is something I've read before in rock journalism and underground papers from that era. Likewise does anyone conduct an interview like Paul Williams did with Anderle at thatsame time, and include every "Mmm Hmm" and whatnot in the piece?

Never thought of that on the Vosse note, a very neat possibility for cryptic notes!

Here is the paragraph from Vosse which I'm guessing Jasper is mentioning:

(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n295/guitarfool2002/vdp1.jpg)


Granted, it does not say specifically "Murry asked Van Dyke to leave", but he makes it all but clear Murry was an "older member of the Wilson family" trying to get rid of Brian's new group of collaborators and business associates.

Yep. I think Murry always had a big impact on Brian, Carl & Dennis and was not shy to put in weighty commands even after the "Rhonda"-session (which was no big turning point IMO).

AGD, the "highly accurate"-comment was meant ironic, because of course, I checked Vosse's dates with your great website before posting. I knew you would jump on the wagon to correct, just wanted to contribute a different angle on things, because I won't accept that Mike Love is the main devil of the SMiLE story.

I think we can look forward to a lot of revisionist bull between now and the release of whatever comes out. It may well emerge that Mr. Love was the foremost smileophile of the day and that Mr. Parks  intervened to shake Brian's faith in the project. Yeah, that's the ticket!

Thanks for that... but the original claim was that in the Vosse piece stated Murry asked VDP to leave... and it doesn't do anything of the sort: in fact, it's not even exclusive to VDP. You see my point ? In a few years time, given this kind of thing, it could be an accepted fact that Murry stormed into a session, grabbed VDP by his collar and kicked his sorry ass out into the street, and all because someone 40-odd years later turned an assumption into a fact. Chinese Whispers.

Further, Murry's comment was obviously made before "GV" became a huge hit. It was released 10/10/66, charted 10/22 at #81 and the following week had climbed 43 places to crack the Top 40. Them's facts. So Murry's diatribe had to take place before late October, and not mid-December 1966, as was firmly stated. In fact, by that time, "GV" had been certified as a million-selling single, so I think even Murry would be hard pressed to claim that indicated that Brian had lost his whole audience.  ;D


Irony on an MB can very often be entirely invisible - as I know to my cost.  :)

At the risk of  :deadhorse, the notion that Brian toiled away on these amazing tracks while the band were off touring, and that what they came back to was a huge - and unpleasant - surprise is largely a myth. Check this out (gigs in yellow):


October     
  1 - Birmingham Municipal Auditorium, Birmingham AL
  3 - Smile session: Home On The Range (= Cabin Essence) [Gold Star]
  4 - Smile session: Prayer [Columbia]
  5 - Smile session: Wind Chimes
  6 - Smile session: Wonderful [vocals - Columbia, BW]
  7 - Smile session: Child Is Father To The Man
10 - Good Vibrations/Let's Go Away For A While single released
10 - Smile session: Wind Chimes/Child Is Father To The Man [vocals - Columbia]
11 - Smile session: Child Is Father To The Man
11 - Smile session: Home On The Range [vocals - Columbia]
12 - Smile session: Child Is Father To The Man [vocals - Columbia]
13 - Smile session: I Ran vocals (= Look)  [vocals - Columbia]
17 - Smile session: I'm In Great Shape (= Heroes And Villains) [vocals - Columbia]
18 - Smile session: Do You Like Worms ?
18 - Smile session: 'Brian's Smile party' [Columbia]
20 - Smile session: Heroes And Villains/'Barnyard'
21 - Michigan State University, Lansing MI
22 - University of Michigan, Ann Arbor MI
10/25 to 11/14 - 2nd European Tour
27 - Smile session: Heroes And Villains/I'm In Great Shape

November
  4 - Smile session: Surf's Up (1st movement)/'Psychedelic Sounds'
  7 - Smile session: Surf's Up/'George Fell Into His French Horn'
  8 - Smile session: Surf's Up
11 - Smile session: Vega-Tables chants
14 - Smile session: My Only Sunshine [Gold Star]
16 to 24 - East coast tour
28 - Smile session: The Elements (Fire) [Gold Star]
29 - Smile session: 'Jazz'/I Wanna Be Around/Friday Night [Gold Star]
30 - Smile session: My Only Sunshine [vocals - Columbia]

December
  2 - Smile session: Child Is Father To The Man [vocals - Columbia]
  6 - Smile session: Child Is Father To The Man/Cabin Essence [vocals - Columbia]
11 - Smile session: Cabin Essence [vocals - Columbia]
13 - Smile session: Heroes And Villains/You're Welcome [vocals - Columbia]
15 - session: "Ball And Mitt" [Columbia]
15 - Smile session: Cabin Essence/Wonderful/Surf's Up [vocals - Columbia] [6]
17 - CBS TV Inside Pop - Brian filmed at home singing "Surf's Up"
19 - Smile session: Heroes And Villains
21 - Smile session: Do You Like Worms ? [vocals - Columbia]
22 - Smile session: Heroes And Villains [vocals - Columbia]
27 - Smile session: Heroes And Villains/Who Ran The Iron Horse/Wonderful
       [vocals - Columbia] [BW]
27 - The Coliseum, Seattle WA
28 - Smile session: Heroes And Villains [vocals - Columbia] [BW]
28 - Civic Auditorium, San Francisco CA

Which also lends theory to what I said earlier about their being 2 sides, and how one side looks at a situation much differently. The Posse always make it sound like Brian started the album, the Boys left on a huge tour, and when they came home they heard mountains of tape that was far out and they freaked out about it. I mean, the longest they were on tour was what, 15 days on the 2nd European tour? And during that time he didn't record anything, so you'd figure that the BB's had already heard whatever had been recorded thus far

Sessions in italics were when the band was on tour... but even so, while they were in Europe Brian only worked on a handful of songs.

Yep, the Boys had sung on at least 6 of the 12 listed songs before the 1st tour. How much I don't know but they don't seem to be strangers to what was going on already.

More to the point, however much anyone bitched about the new songs/lyrics, they then proceeded to sing them. And sing them damn well.

The Posse seems to agree that Van Dyke left the project because of problems between VDP and BW and that it happened late, around February. VDP seems to blame it on his presumption/premonition that there was trouble ahead based on Mike's asking about a lyric and also his perception of family/group dynamics.

He seems to me to be all over the place as to date but he also has suggested it was late, presumably after his last attended session in February. He also has tied his departure to the lawsuit so I'm saying VDP is saying when he says he left-left over the lyric question and puts it at the time of the lawsuit he is also putting both in late February and not in December. You know, as best I can make of it.

And didn't Dennis tell a reporter during the 1st tour that the new album will be better than Pet Sounds?

and later he stated "It makes Pet Sounds stink, that’s how good it is. It’s going to be great. We’re 50% done with it".

And something from Mike, but I guess he was talking about Smiley Smile already: "We are finishing it now. We knew the title and the songs months ago already. Only Brian played the tapes again a few times and found it necessary to skip some songs. That’s what happened. Capitol finished the sleeve in April already. I don’t know how many sleeves they can throw out now, just because the lineup of songs and some songs have changed completely."

Somewhere there is a list of quotes of the Boys praising Brian and his new music all through the period.

It all existed together I guess, they ALL loved it and had problems with it. My take is the Boys' and Posse's love apparently out weighed the problems they had with it but in the end, at the time, it was Brian's call and he didn't love it more than the problems he had with it. At least he didn't love it more in SMiLE form, he loved it more in Smiley form. Something like that.

Doh! I don't know why I didn't notice that! 'It was early', I guess that's my excuse!

Really though, it's pretty much there in black and white (or white and yellow, in this case).

Going to check something out... [sfx - retreating footsteps, closing door]

Damn, I'm good. In his seminal piece, Jules Seigel says "Van Dyke Parks had left and come back and would leave again", and the context places that in early 1967.

I think the "Two Camps" theory is overly simplistic. There was far more nuance than that. Murry having a problem with the direction is no bulletin. He'd been fighting them on that since "I Get Around". His preference was to go back to 409, the guys knew his taste was a joke. Yes, they had to deal with his constant guilt trips and manipulation, but Brian's "new" friends who had only been there for months instead of years, were probably more freaked out by Murry than BW or the BB's were. He was their dad, he was involved in the business, but he had no meaningful creative influence. Marilyn wasn't crazy about Brian's friends because of drug intake, and she saw his behavior becoming more bizarre from a domestic standpoint, but does she count as being in the BB's camp? There is no good evidence that Brian's brothers were heavily negative regarding Smile. Dennis was definitely supportive of Brian's new direction and the system that was bringing it about. We've seen the quotes from DW himself. Van Dyke told me to my face that Dennis was into the new music and excited about it. He was one of, if the not the first person they played "Surf's Up" for as they were writing it. Carl also seemed at least semi-supportive, doing his usual right hand man thing on the sessions when he was in town. So if there's "two camps", there may have been more Beach Boys in the non-Beach Boys camp than in the Beach Boys camp. I think saying "The Beach Boys" didn't support or understand Smile is just a convenient way to not have to name names. It was a far more complex situation than two camps.

Well said, Jon. 

Indeed, well done, Jon...two great things to remember are that any human situation is much more complex than we try to boil it down to from the outside, and that you need to always verify peoples' recollections and long-held beliefs with some kind of objective or semi-objective source, preferably contemporaneous.  A lot of times versions of events take hold strongly from a very weak starting point.

Never underestimate how much truth you can uncover this way...there's an organization I've been following for years who have completely re-investigated the Amelia Earhart disappearance and discovered that most of what was thought about it originally was totally misreported and wrong, and they are very close to solving that mystery.  I've loved going to their site because it's amazing how much you can put together by going back and looking at the source material VERY carefully, and taking everything else with a giant grain of salt.  There's an amazing rethinking that's gone on about the Beach Boys because of the new information that's been discovered....from the band's role in making the records, to David Marks' place in history.

As outsiders here, I would think and hope it's easier for us to recognize the truth in what is being said these past few posts ... but I'm afraid fanhood leads people to caricature the people into characters, the reality into theater, and then to choose sides. All we have to do is think, "am I that simplistic in my relationships?" Hopefully, we all recognize the answer is no. We work jobs we don't like ... but maybe kind-of do, for one reason or another. We go into, stay in, and bow out of romances for complicated reasons. We hate our families even as we love them. And friendships evolve constantly. The band was dealing with all these kinds things, intermingled. The "Mike Love ruined Smile" line (or any other line, for or against any of the involved) is just too simplistic to represent accurately what happened and why.

That was not my notion in the post, and I never subscribed to the "Brian toiling away" version of the story: what I was saying was there were people perhaps spending more personal time with Brian during the same timeline as was posted than the other Beach Boys, and one of those people was Michael Vosse. There are things he talked about, experienced, and lived with Brian which the other Beach Boys were not involved with. The fact that the Beach Boys were out touring is a minor part of the story, worth noting, but it was not the basis of what I was trying to say.

Again, I think it is worth noting that Van Dyke, Anderle, and Vosse had a different set of shared experiences with Brian than Mike, Al, Carl, and Dennis. Within the Beach Boys group, as others noted, Carl (especially) and Dennis (to a lesser degree) were probably even more close to the creative scene at that time than Mike or Al, by nature of the family bond. So I'd argue there were both divisions and sub-divisions at work during this time, within the same core groups.

Consider this:
(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n295/guitarfool2002/vosse2a.jpg)


Is it worth noting that a recent discussion about the band's inner politics well into the 70's revealed a similar split within the band, where it was one faction versus another among band members?

I think saying "The Beach Boys" supported or didn't support anything is not possible anyway, because there did not seem to be much of a consensus among all the band members at any given time from 1966 onward.

On the night the recorded version of BWPS was released, VDP made an appearance on the blueboard and when someone asked him about Carl, Van Dyke replied that Carl had told him he loved Smile.  So he certainly remembers Carl being supportive.

That's what I'm saying, it's more nuanced than somebody said/thought they was supportive and somebody thought/said they weren't. They all were and weren't at the same time, including Brian. Still, they all [BBs and Posse] were much more supportive than not even after Brian was much less supportive than was.

So...is the answer that Van Dyke left and returned so many times that we cannot pintpoint an exact exit date for sure? I've re-read some interviews with Van Dyke and he says the last session he was present for was "Barnyard". But that doesn't add up because Van Dyke is still listed as musician on AFM sheets in January. This also defies his claim that he was gone by the time "The Elements" were happening because he sensed things were going wrong or something. Is he just remembering one fo the times he left and forgetting that he returned and worked some more? I'm confused...

Van Dyke has never said he left twice, although others have, and I believe there's an explanation for this.  Van dyke mentioned leaving around the time of Fire - although actually it's probably a week later after the Cabinessence vocal session and lyrics snafu.  This is when Van Dyke considers himself leaving, for good.  And starting work on his own album in January/February, signing the contract in January as Cam points out.

But we know he's back for sessions in February AND March ("intro to Heroes" session).  Then he's out of the picture.  To the Vosse posse, he's left twice, but to Van, he was never back, at least not like before.  Van sees his lyrics and probably the entire Smile project falling victim to familial squabbles and doesn't want to be in the middle of that.  And wants to do his own project, not be subjected to Brian's increasingly erratic behavior, etc.  But Brian is now solely focused on getting the single Heroes out and needs Van dyke's help, so Van Dyke is back as a session musician and "helper" to try and salvage something, namely a potential hit Beach Boys single which would benefit Van greatly at this time, out of all his work for the project.  When the Heroes sessions grind to a halt in March he's gone.

So he leaves once as song writing collaborator/partner, once as session musician/facilitator.

I understand Van Dyke points to the family dynamic and the tension created by that as one of the main reasons, but factoring in his solo album project, I think it may have been a clash of two strong musical personalities to blame as well.

I'm one to look at the Vosse article, the Seigel article, and the Williams/Anderle article as my first line of reference for a lot of these issues. Reading into the Vosse article, there is the notion that Van Dyke could get frustrated by Brian bossing him around, and that would seem to be in the boss-employee role which already has tension naturally built in. Brian did, naturally, "hire" Van Dyke, yet the way they were working they would seem to be musical brothers, and yet the relationship would dictate Brian would have to call the shots at the end of the day and on the spot as well since it was his album, his project, and his name carrying it with a number one record just under his belt.

Some session tapes reveal Van Dyke was much more involved in the music and the creation of the music than many assumed for years, placing him in the lyricist role and bypassing his input on the sessions and the music itself. Vosse's words suggest the two of the in the studio was where the magic happened, as they both had an energy which fueled the way the music was being made and Vosse seems to be one of those who enjoyed being a witness to this creative energy as it happened. Yet it was his article that specifically says Van Dyke eventually got tired of Brian bossing him around.

I compare it to George Harrison just before work on Let It Be started. He had just been to America, had hung out and worked with some of the most influential musicians in America, and those people were very receptive to George *as a musician* and wanted his input and ideas, along with hanging out in a social way and talking music and whatnot. Then he returns to work with his own band, and there was Paul McCartney telling him when to play guitar in a bandleader role, after he just spent time with Dylan, The Band, etc, and was his own person. George had to see the situation from outside the bubble, and when he went back into the bubble he had a different attitude and stood on his own. Of course it led to conflicts including the blow-up where George left the sessions as cameras rolled.

So Van Dyke had been working with Brian in a role where Brian called the shots, then he gets a deal on a full album and having worked with the session musicians under Brian's wing, he now hired some of those very same musicians in the very same studios to record his music where he had ultimate say on the results. He was in charge, and there was no family dynamic, no boss-employee dynamic, and his name would be on the album cover.

As much as the family dynamic may have been a factor, Van Dyke's wanting to be his own boss may factor in as well.

As I mentioned and you elaborate on, Brian's erratic behavior and Van Dyke's position as employee being subject to Brian's whims was definitely a factor in his leaving.  Van Dyke seems not have liked Brian's mind games as in Smile Era Party and some of the other "party" tapes, Brian at a whim deciding everyone needs to get into the pool, or we need to open up a billiards store that's open 24 hours, or the vibrations aren't right for a session and cancelling the session from his car outside the studio, those things I'm sure wore on Van Dyke.  The posse participants all said that when you were with Brian, you were on Brian's trip, whether you liked it or not.

Sorry, posted to the wrong thread...my bad.  ::)