Van Dyke Parks left, came back, and left again. Truth or Fiction?

[bgas]

The one thing that I vehemently disagree with in that article is his claim that the SMiLE cover wasn't very good. I, for one, thinks it's perfect! Except maybe they could have had drawings of the Boys' themselves in the windows.

How do you know those aren't drawings of Brian/Carl/Dennis/Mike, as seen thru the eyes of the artist? ( they're too tall to be Al) 

[Jon Stebbins]

Separating fact from conjecture and/or hazy memories is REAL important. The BB's written history was ridiculously riddled with bad info due to too many journalist taking people's memories at their word instead of checking their word against the reviewable and documented facts. The principals themselves, and those "who were there" are often the worst sources for chronology... and sometimes even the truth. Why? Because people spin things to elevate themselves(human nature), people have certain memories that stick in a certain way... sometimes not having much to do with reality, AND they often have no interest in re-sorting said memories into a factual context because they "were there" (so why should they be questioned by anyone who was not?) etc... Andrew's natural skepticism is a healthy and helpful thing if you are really interested in knowing how things actually went down. Its a process, and he's one of the guys that moves that process along. We all make mistakes, some of us like to correct them. If you prefer fantasy, or partially correct, but less than reliable tales, there are plenty of BB's books and articles from the past that are extremely hit and miss. What I wrote 10 years ago is obsolete now if you ask me...but it still has merit if you understand the context in which it was written. Same goes for this '69 Vosse recollection. I think what Andrew is saying is yeah its an important article, but take it with a grain of salt because its old, it has serious inconsistencies, and the reason we know that now is because we're shining the light on stuff, giving it a sober evaluation, and trying to learn more as we go.

[A Million Units In Jan!]

Separating fact from conjecture and/or hazy memories is REAL important. The BB's written history was ridiculously riddled with bad info due to too many journalist taking people's memories at their word instead of checking their word against the reviewable and documented facts. The principals themselves, and those "who were there" are often the worst sources for chronology... and sometimes even the truth. Why? Because people spin things to elevate themselves(human nature), people have certain memories that stick in a certain way... sometimes not having much to do with reality, AND they often have no interest in re-sorting said memories into a factual context because they "were there" (so why should they be questioned by anyone who was not?) etc... Andrew's natural skepticism is a healthy and helpful thing if you are really interested in knowing how things actually went down. Its a process, and he's one of the guys that moves that process along. We all make mistakes, some of us like to correct them. If you prefer fantasy, or partially correct, but less than reliable tales, there are plenty of BB's books and articles from the past that are extremely hit and miss. What I wrote 10 years ago is obsolete now if you ask me...but it still has merit if you understand the context in which it was written. Same goes for this '69 Vosse recollection. I think what Andrew is saying is yeah its an important article, but take it with a grain of salt because its old, it has serious inconsistencies, and the reason we know that now is because we're shining the light on stuff, giving it a sober evaluation, and trying to learn more as we go.

Good points, Jon. And it seems, especially with SMiLE, everybody wants to believe that there were 2 sides; The Beach Boys, and The Posse. And I don't think it's that simple, no matter how hard Brian's camp (now) tries to make that out to be the case, or how, back in the day (and even now) Anderle and Vosse and Van Dyke seemed to think it was shelved strictly because of the other guys.
The thing is, especially with this material (and I'm sure this has been talked about before), is that EVERY little piece of music, every little conversation that we know took place, every article ever written about SMiLE has been analyzed and torn apart and put back together again so many times. We've worn out our copies of LLVS! trying to get answers.   Sometimes I think we know as much right now as those guys back then did.

[guitarfool2002]

I don't think we will ever know as much, because simply put we were not there and nothing beats first hand information. The kind like you'd get, say, driving with Brian Wilson in a car shooting the bull on an average day in late 1966. Remember the auction for the Vosse note with Brian's cryptic words? What in-jokes were being told there? We can quote the exact wording, the type of paper, perhaps the pen that was used but no one but those two will know what it meant. Context is everything.

I still come back to Vosse's Fusion article as one of the best references, and even more still cannot stop thinking about the reasons why Mark Volman shut down as soon as Smile was brought up in an interview. There is SO MUCH information which no one in that scene is talking about, I think.

[guitarfool2002]

And it seems, especially with SMiLE, everybody wants to believe that there were 2 sides; The Beach Boys, and The Posse. And I don't think it's that simple, no matter how hard Brian's camp (now) tries to make that out to be the case, or how, back in the day (and even now) Anderle and Vosse and Van Dyke seemed to think it was shelved strictly because of the other guys.

They say that and stand by that because that was their experience contributing to that opinion. They were with Brian in the studio as he was creating the instrumental tracks, they were hanging out with Brian at parties the other Beach Boys weren't attending, they were with Brian as the Boys were on tour, and they had more of Brian's attention in November and early December 66 when some amazing stuff was happening.

Would Al Jardine have anything valid to say about the Blaine-Vosse-Brian vegetables skits, or any of that stuff which was done as the Boys were out on tour? Did Al even hear it until years later? If you asked Al, as a Beach Boy, what was going on, he'd be less of a source than Vosse or Hal. Context is everything. Who wouldn't take the word of a Beach Boy over a session player and an assistant?

There were two sides, and I'd argue they also saw two different sides of Brian and had different motives for acting as they did: Brian working without the Beach Boys as they toured, and Brian working with the Beach Boys when they returned. There were two camps with different outlooks in late 66/early 67.

[Cam Mott]

The Mojo Men's "Sit Down..." on Reprise was already a Pick Hit on WDRC's survey ending the week of Dec. 26 1966 and Harper's Bizarre's "59th..." for Warner was already a Pick Hit on WLOF's survey of Jan. 27 1967. That seems like Van Dyke was already multitasking at least in December or even earlier.

Van Dyke has said it was AFTER he had FINISHED his work with Brian that he accepted Warners' offer and that was in January '67 and that he was recording Song Cycle from January forward over the course of a few months and that he wrote the songs for Song Cycle as he recorded the album. According to VDP expert Don Richardson, VDP signed the contract on January 6.

Even eyewitnesses interviewed within minutes get the details wrong and I'm still re-reading Vosse's article, but right away it seems like he is sort of starting a story, then free-ranges around, then returns to the story. Not necessarily meaning everything to be in chronological order. Maybe not.

PS. It seems to me that Vosse note we were discussing earlier in another thread might be explained in that interview. What if that note is describing the house Brian had Vosse looking for to be Brothers/Home Movies office described in the interview.

[guitarfool2002]

Even eyewitnesses interviewed within minutes get the details wrong and I'm still re-reading Vosse's article, but right away it seems like he is sort of starting a story, then free-ranges around, then returns to the story. Not necessarily meaning everything to be in chronological order. Maybe not.

PS. It seems to me that Vosse note we were discussing earlier in another thread might be explained in that interview. What if that note is describing the house Brian had Vosse looking for to be Brothers/Home Movies office described in the interview.

Excellent points all around!  But these two stood out. I have to address the Vosse writing style by comparing it to other rock journalism at the time. There was more of a free-form style in the writing, and I think that was part of the "scene" if you will. I have an old paperback compilation of Rolling Stone's record reviews and that same drifting/floating style can be read there, too, depending on the author. I guess it was a sign of the times, but Vosse's writing style is something I've read before in rock journalism and underground papers from that era. Likewise does anyone conduct an interview like Paul Williams did with Anderle at thatsame time, and include every "Mmm Hmm" and whatnot in the piece?

Never thought of that on the Vosse note, a very neat possibility for cryptic notes!

[guitarfool2002]

OK, just double checked, and unless my eyesight is worse that I think it is, nowhere in that article is there anything about Murry asking VDP to leave. If I'm missing it, please point me at it.

Here is the paragraph from Vosse which I'm guessing Jasper is mentioning:




Granted, it does not say specifically "Murry asked Van Dyke to leave", but he makes it all but clear Murry was an "older member of the Wilson family" trying to get rid of Brian's new group of collaborators and business associates.

[XY]

Yep. I think Murry always had a big impact on Brian, Carl & Dennis and was not shy to put in weighty commands even after the "Rhonda"-session (which was no big turning point IMO).

AGD, the "highly accurate"-comment was meant ironic, because of course, I checked Vosse's dates with your great website before posting. I knew you would jump on the wagon to correct, just wanted to contribute a different angle on things, because I won't accept that Mike Love is the main devil of the SMiLE story.

[Bill Ed]

I think we can look forward to a lot of revisionist bull between now and the release of whatever comes out. It may well emerge that Mr. Love was the foremost smileophile of the day and that Mr. Parks  intervened to shake Brian's faith in the project. Yeah, that's the ticket!

[Andrew G. Doe]

OK, just double checked, and unless my eyesight is worse that I think it is, nowhere in that article is there anything about Murry asking VDP to leave. If I'm missing it, please point me at it.

Here is the paragraph from Vosse which I'm guessing Jasper is mentioning:




Granted, it does not say specifically "Murry asked Van Dyke to leave", but he makes it all but clear Murry was an "older member of the Wilson family" trying to get rid of Brian's new group of collaborators and business associates.

Thanks for that... but the original claim was that in the Vosse piece stated Murry asked VDP to leave... and it doesn't do anything of the sort: in fact, it's not even exclusive to VDP. You see my point ? In a few years time, given this kind of thing, it could be an accepted fact that Murry stormed into a session, grabbed VDP by his collar and kicked his sorry ass out into the street, and all because someone 40-odd years later turned an assumption into a fact. Chinese Whispers.

Further, Murry's comment was obviously made before "GV" became a huge hit. It was released 10/10/66, charted 10/22 at #81 and the following week had climbed 43 places to crack the Top 40. Them's facts. So Murry's diatribe had to take place before late October, and not mid-December 1966, as was firmly stated. In fact, by that time, "GV" had been certified as a million-selling single, so I think even Murry would be hard pressed to claim that indicated that Brian had lost his whole audience.  

AGD, the "highly accurate"-comment was meant ironic, because of course, I checked Vosse's dates with your great website before posting. I knew you would jump on the wagon to correct, just wanted to contribute a different angle on things, because I won't accept that Mike Love is the main devil of the SMiLE story.

Irony on an MB can very often be entirely invisible - as I know to my cost. 

[Andrew G. Doe]

They were with Brian in the studio as he was creating the instrumental tracks, they were hanging out with Brian at parties the other Beach Boys weren't attending, they were with Brian as the Boys were on tour, and they had more of Brian's attention in November and early December 66 when some amazing stuff was happening.

There were two sides, and I'd argue they also saw two different sides of Brian and had different motives for acting as they did: Brian working without the Beach Boys as they toured, and Brian working with the Beach Boys when they returned. There were two camps with different outlooks in late 66/early 67.

At the risk of  , the notion that Brian toiled away on these amazing tracks while the band were off touring, and that what they came back to was a huge - and unpleasant - surprise is largely a myth. Check this out (gigs in yellow):


October     
  1 - Birmingham Municipal Auditorium, Birmingham AL
  3 - Smile session: Home On The Range (= Cabin Essence) [Gold Star]
  4 - Smile session: Prayer [Columbia]
  5 - Smile session: Wind Chimes
  6 - Smile session: Wonderful [vocals - Columbia, BW]
  7 - Smile session: Child Is Father To The Man
10 - Good Vibrations/Let's Go Away For A While single released
10 - Smile session: Wind Chimes/Child Is Father To The Man [vocals - Columbia]
11 - Smile session: Child Is Father To The Man
11 - Smile session: Home On The Range [vocals - Columbia]
12 - Smile session: Child Is Father To The Man [vocals - Columbia]
13 - Smile session: I Ran vocals (= Look)  [vocals - Columbia]
17 - Smile session: I'm In Great Shape (= Heroes And Villains) [vocals - Columbia]
18 - Smile session: Do You Like Worms ?
18 - Smile session: 'Brian's Smile party' [Columbia]
20 - Smile session: Heroes And Villains/'Barnyard'
21 - Michigan State University, Lansing MI
22 - University of Michigan, Ann Arbor MI
10/25 to 11/14 - 2nd European Tour
27 - Smile session: Heroes And Villains/I'm In Great Shape

November
  4 - Smile session: Surf's Up (1st movement)/'Psychedelic Sounds'
  7 - Smile session: Surf's Up/'George Fell Into His French Horn'
  8 - Smile session: Surf's Up
11 - Smile session: Vega-Tables chants
14 - Smile session: My Only Sunshine [Gold Star]
16 to 24 - East coast tour
28 - Smile session: The Elements (Fire) [Gold Star]
29 - Smile session: 'Jazz'/I Wanna Be Around/Friday Night [Gold Star]
30 - Smile session: My Only Sunshine [vocals - Columbia]

December
  2 - Smile session: Child Is Father To The Man [vocals - Columbia]
  6 - Smile session: Child Is Father To The Man/Cabin Essence [vocals - Columbia]
11 - Smile session: Cabin Essence [vocals - Columbia]
13 - Smile session: Heroes And Villains/You're Welcome [vocals - Columbia]
15 - session: "Ball And Mitt" [Columbia]
15 - Smile session: Cabin Essence/Wonderful/Surf's Up [vocals - Columbia] [6]
17 - CBS TV Inside Pop - Brian filmed at home singing "Surf's Up"
19 - Smile session: Heroes And Villains
21 - Smile session: Do You Like Worms ? [vocals - Columbia]
22 - Smile session: Heroes And Villains [vocals - Columbia]
27 - Smile session: Heroes And Villains/Who Ran The Iron Horse/Wonderful
       [vocals - Columbia] [BW]
27 - The Coliseum, Seattle WA
28 - Smile session: Heroes And Villains [vocals - Columbia] [BW]
28 - Civic Auditorium, San Francisco CA

[A Million Units In Jan!]

They were with Brian in the studio as he was creating the instrumental tracks, they were hanging out with Brian at parties the other Beach Boys weren't attending, they were with Brian as the Boys were on tour, and they had more of Brian's attention in November and early December 66 when some amazing stuff was happening.

There were two sides, and I'd argue they also saw two different sides of Brian and had different motives for acting as they did: Brian working without the Beach Boys as they toured, and Brian working with the Beach Boys when they returned. There were two camps with different outlooks in late 66/early 67.

At the risk of  , the notion that Brian toiled away on these amazing tracks while the band were off touring, and that what they came back to was a huge - and unpleasant - surprise is largely a myth. Check this out (gigs in yellow):


October     
  1 - Birmingham Municipal Auditorium, Birmingham AL
  3 - Smile session: Home On The Range (= Cabin Essence) [Gold Star]
  4 - Smile session: Prayer [Columbia]
  5 - Smile session: Wind Chimes
  6 - Smile session: Wonderful [vocals - Columbia, BW]
  7 - Smile session: Child Is Father To The Man
10 - Good Vibrations/Let's Go Away For A While single released
10 - Smile session: Wind Chimes/Child Is Father To The Man [vocals - Columbia]
11 - Smile session: Child Is Father To The Man
11 - Smile session: Home On The Range [vocals - Columbia]
12 - Smile session: Child Is Father To The Man [vocals - Columbia]
13 - Smile session: I Ran vocals (= Look)  [vocals - Columbia]
17 - Smile session: I'm In Great Shape (= Heroes And Villains) [vocals - Columbia]
18 - Smile session: Do You Like Worms ?
18 - Smile session: 'Brian's Smile party' [Columbia]
20 - Smile session: Heroes And Villains/'Barnyard'
21 - Michigan State University, Lansing MI
22 - University of Michigan, Ann Arbor MI
10/25 to 11/14 - 2nd European Tour
27 - Smile session: Heroes And Villains/I'm In Great Shape

November
  4 - Smile session: Surf's Up (1st movement)/'Psychedelic Sounds'
  7 - Smile session: Surf's Up/'George Fell Into His French Horn'
  8 - Smile session: Surf's Up
11 - Smile session: Vega-Tables chants
14 - Smile session: My Only Sunshine [Gold Star]
16 to 24 - East coast tour
28 - Smile session: The Elements (Fire) [Gold Star]
29 - Smile session: 'Jazz'/I Wanna Be Around/Friday Night [Gold Star]
30 - Smile session: My Only Sunshine [vocals - Columbia]

December
  2 - Smile session: Child Is Father To The Man [vocals - Columbia]
  6 - Smile session: Child Is Father To The Man/Cabin Essence [vocals - Columbia]
11 - Smile session: Cabin Essence [vocals - Columbia]
13 - Smile session: Heroes And Villains/You're Welcome [vocals - Columbia]
15 - session: "Ball And Mitt" [Columbia]
15 - Smile session: Cabin Essence/Wonderful/Surf's Up [vocals - Columbia] [6]
17 - CBS TV Inside Pop - Brian filmed at home singing "Surf's Up"
19 - Smile session: Heroes And Villains
21 - Smile session: Do You Like Worms ? [vocals - Columbia]
22 - Smile session: Heroes And Villains [vocals - Columbia]
27 - Smile session: Heroes And Villains/Who Ran The Iron Horse/Wonderful
       [vocals - Columbia] [BW]
27 - The Coliseum, Seattle WA
28 - Smile session: Heroes And Villains [vocals - Columbia] [BW]
28 - Civic Auditorium, San Francisco CA

Which also lends theory to what I said earlier about their being 2 sides, and how one side looks at a situation much differently. The Posse always make it sound like Brian started the album, the Boys left on a huge tour, and when they came home they heard mountains of tape that was far out and they freaked out about it. I mean, the longest they were on tour was what, 15 days on the 2nd European tour? And during that time he didn't record anything, so you'd figure that the BB's had already heard whatever had been recorded thus far

[Andrew G. Doe]

Sessions in italics were when the band was on tour... but even so, while they were in Europe Brian only worked on a handful of songs.

[Cam Mott]

Yep, the Boys had sung on at least 6 of the 12 listed songs before the 1st tour. How much I don't know but they don't seem to be strangers to what was going on already.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Yep, the Boys had sung on at least 6 of the 12 listed songs before the 1st tour. How much I don't know but they don't seem to be strangers to what was going on already.

More to the point, however much anyone bitched about the new songs/lyrics, they then proceeded to sing them. And sing them damn well.

[Cam Mott]

The Posse seems to agree that Van Dyke left the project because of problems between VDP and BW and that it happened late, around February. VDP seems to blame it on his presumption/premonition that there was trouble ahead based on Mike's asking about a lyric and also his perception of family/group dynamics.

He seems to me to be all over the place as to date but he also has suggested it was late, presumably after his last attended session in February. He also has tied his departure to the lawsuit so I'm saying VDP is saying when he says he left-left over the lyric question and puts it at the time of the lawsuit he is also putting both in late February and not in December. You know, as best I can make of it.

[XY]

Yep, the Boys had sung on at least 6 of the 12 listed songs before the 1st tour. How much I don't know but they don't seem to be strangers to what was going on already.

More to the point, however much anyone bitched about the new songs/lyrics, they then proceeded to sing them. And sing them damn well.

And didn't Dennis tell a reporter during the 1st tour that the new album will be better than Pet Sounds?

and later he stated "It makes Pet Sounds stink, that’s how good it is. It’s going to be great. We’re 50% done with it".

And something from Mike, but I guess he was talking about Smiley Smile already: "We are finishing it now. We knew the title and the songs months ago already. Only Brian played the tapes again a few times and found it necessary to skip some songs. That’s what happened. Capitol finished the sleeve in April already. I don’t know how many sleeves they can throw out now, just because the lineup of songs and some songs have changed completely."

[Cam Mott]

Somewhere there is a list of quotes of the Boys praising Brian and his new music all through the period.

It all existed together I guess, they ALL loved it and had problems with it. My take is the Boys' and Posse's love apparently out weighed the problems they had with it but in the end, at the time, it was Brian's call and he didn't love it more than the problems he had with it. At least he didn't love it more in SMiLE form, he loved it more in Smiley form. Something like that.

[A Million Units In Jan!]

Sessions in italics were when the band was on tour... but even so, while they were in Europe Brian only worked on a handful of songs.

Doh! I don't know why I didn't notice that! 'It was early', I guess that's my excuse!

Really though, it's pretty much there in black and white (or white and yellow, in this case).

[Andrew G. Doe]

The Posse seems to agree that Van Dyke left the project because of problems between VDP and BW and that it happened late, around February. VDP seems to blame it on his presumption/premonition that there was trouble ahead based on Mike's asking about a lyric and also his perception of family/group dynamics.

He seems to me to be all over the place as to date but he also has suggested it was late, presumably after his last attended session in February. He also has tied his departure to the lawsuit so I'm saying VDP is saying when he says he left-left over the lyric question and puts it at the time of the lawsuit he is also putting both in late February and not in December. You know, as best I can make of it.

Going to check something out... [sfx - retreating footsteps, closing door]

Damn, I'm good. In his seminal piece, Jules Seigel says "Van Dyke Parks had left and come back and would leave again", and the context places that in early 1967.

[Jon Stebbins]

I think the "Two Camps" theory is overly simplistic. There was far more nuance than that. Murry having a problem with the direction is no bulletin. He'd been fighting them on that since "I Get Around". His preference was to go back to 409, the guys knew his taste was a joke. Yes, they had to deal with his constant guilt trips and manipulation, but Brian's "new" friends who had only been there for months instead of years, were probably more freaked out by Murry than BW or the BB's were. He was their dad, he was involved in the business, but he had no meaningful creative influence. Marilyn wasn't crazy about Brian's friends because of drug intake, and she saw his behavior becoming more bizarre from a domestic standpoint, but does she count as being in the BB's camp? There is no good evidence that Brian's brothers were heavily negative regarding Smile. Dennis was definitely supportive of Brian's new direction and the system that was bringing it about. We've seen the quotes from DW himself. Van Dyke told me to my face that Dennis was into the new music and excited about it. He was one of, if the not the first person they played "Surf's Up" for as they were writing it. Carl also seemed at least semi-supportive, doing his usual right hand man thing on the sessions when he was in town. So if there's "two camps", there may have been more Beach Boys in the non-Beach Boys camp than in the Beach Boys camp. I think saying "The Beach Boys" didn't support or understand Smile is just a convenient way to not have to name names. It was a far more complex situation than two camps.

[Chris Brown]

Well said, Jon. 

[adamghost]

Indeed, well done, Jon...two great things to remember are that any human situation is much more complex than we try to boil it down to from the outside, and that you need to always verify peoples' recollections and long-held beliefs with some kind of objective or semi-objective source, preferably contemporaneous.  A lot of times versions of events take hold strongly from a very weak starting point.

Never underestimate how much truth you can uncover this way...there's an organization I've been following for years who have completely re-investigated the Amelia Earhart disappearance and discovered that most of what was thought about it originally was totally misreported and wrong, and they are very close to solving that mystery.  I've loved going to their site because it's amazing how much you can put together by going back and looking at the source material VERY carefully, and taking everything else with a giant grain of salt.  There's an amazing rethinking that's gone on about the Beach Boys because of the new information that's been discovered....from the band's role in making the records, to David Marks' place in history.

[the captain]

As outsiders here, I would think and hope it's easier for us to recognize the truth in what is being said these past few posts ... but I'm afraid fanhood leads people to caricature the people into characters, the reality into theater, and then to choose sides. All we have to do is think, "am I that simplistic in my relationships?" Hopefully, we all recognize the answer is no. We work jobs we don't like ... but maybe kind-of do, for one reason or another. We go into, stay in, and bow out of romances for complicated reasons. We hate our families even as we love them. And friendships evolve constantly. The band was dealing with all these kinds things, intermingled. The "Mike Love ruined Smile" line (or any other line, for or against any of the involved) is just too simplistic to represent accurately what happened and why.