The Smiley Smile Message Board

I've always wondered why when Mike and perhaps one or two other BBs voiced objections over the Smile material Brian didn' t seek to put it out under his own name?  If people around him felt that the songs were too far forward for the Beach Boys audience maybe he could have thought something  like "Right- Wild Honey as a group project, Smile as a solo artist".  Wouldn't this have solved alot of problems within the group at the time?

it needed those Beach Boys vocals...it makes sense to make it solo (with Caroline No being a BW solo single)...but as Michael V. once said on the Dumb Angel doc, he wanted those beach boy harmonies.

How much time do you have?

Yep in that respect i guess there's just no getting round it - everything sounds better when it has the full backwash of vocals from Carl & Co.  One of the biggest problems I had/have with BWPS is whenever i hear the backing vocals of pretty much any song on it i immediately compare them to the BBs backing vocals on the orig sessions and they just can't compete in my mind.

Oh that and the rapping pirate!!

Not to mention the fact that most of the BB's were family, and depended (at least Brian felt that way) on him to make the hit records. Imagine if SMiLE would have been a Brian Wilson smash solo album.  The group would never be the same-it just couldn't happen, the dynamics were such that it'd be a problem.

Maybe Brian did put the idea out there then but was talked out of it for the reasons stated above?

I personally don't think other people's opinions mattered to Brian in that way and didn't keep him from doing anything that he wanted to do or make him do anything he didn't want to do in any way he did or didn't want to do or not do it; that notion is sort of a fan fiction imo. Anyways, some [or at least one] in the Posse says he encouraged that solo idea to Brian and Brian dismissed it out of hand, I take that to mean Brian never had any intention or inkling to go solo.

It wasn't finished

Because he wanted to put it out less than they did.

Yep. Brian kept accumulating reasons for not putting it out, none of which the other guys agreed with.

Asking that question shows that you don't really understand the Beach Boys group dynamics.  Brian was raised by his father to believe that anyone outside the family can't be trusted...and that family is all that matters...So he had huge psychological reasons for not "abandoning" his family.  As has been written a thousand times-the BBs are not a group like the Kinks or Beatles...they are three brothers, a cousin and a friend.  And that friend had to wait a long time to become a full corporate member

I dunno if that flies completely! We're all raised with one thing or another beaten into our skulls, but not all of it dominates our adult lives! Brian isn't all that different.

If Brian was a slave to the family, then why was he constantly deviating from that scenario by adopting outside lyricists (purposfully antagonizing Mike even) using outside musicians, constantly hanging out with new friends, and generally distancing himself from The Beach Boys, which he is still doing today.

I think the Sherriff hit it on the head once again.

I bet that the other BBs including Mike would have preffered Smile over Smiley Smile.

That's one thing that always bugged me; if the other guys (including the devil himself, Mike Love) didn't think SMiLE was commercial enough, and they didn't think people would 'get it', how in the world would they think Smiley Smile was more accessible? Just because they reached a point where they  needed product on the shelves?

They didn't. The other BBs didn't refuse to record Smile and they didn't choose for Smiley Smile to be released. Both down to Brian. The reasons can and have obviously been debated though...

I think if he had wanted to really go solo in 1967 he would have. It basically comes down to the fact that he began to focus too much on the minutia and lost the bigger concept of the whole. When that happened he just switched directions. I know some find this hard to believe but there was a period where Brian was happy being a Beach Boy instead of THE Beach Boy. He agreed with me quite strongly when I suggested to him that the Beach Boys of the late sixties worked very well together as a group. Listening to Friends, Sunflower, Wild Honey, even Smiley, I hear that and others have confirmed that to me as well.

Some interesting replies, can't say I agree with all of them but then thats the beauty of a good debate!! ;)  I must say I find it a bit weird that some body posted that Brian would not want to pursue outside ventres because of the group dynamic and family ties.  As soon as the BBs started he was writing and producing for other artists.  I think he wanted to be another Phil Spector who he obliviously idolised.  I also have a suspicion that the Caroline No single was issued under his own name as a ways of testing the water to see if he could indeed shift records as a solo artist.  In '66-67 it's quite easy to imagine that word around town was that Brian had outgown the Beach Boys - certainly areas of the music press were hinting at this.
 

I seem to remember Brian saying that Caroline No was not part of a plan to break out solo but was part of a plan to showcase individual Boys in the same way. Apparently the plan just never got beyond Brian with C,N [let's hate him [just kidding]] although Gettin' Hungry kind of a sort of showcase for Mike. You know, if you hold your head just right.

I always figured that it didn't come out because Brian didn't know how to finsih it, especially since VDP had departed the scene.  It is obvious that he had trouble commuicating his vision so there was nobody elese who could even help him finish it.

Thses leads me to a side question.  What is the last thing that Brian was able to finish producing without any outside help?  I wouldn't be surprised if it was Good Vibrations or one of the finished SMiLe pieces.

Mike wrote the lyrics and bass vocal hook for Good Vibrations after Tony Asher had already contributed.

Yes, Van Dyke was gone and Brian wasn't including Mike.

These are things that didn't help,

But what I find perplexing is that other than the missing VDP lyrics being slotted into place on a few songs, I really can't find virtually any difference between most BWSP tracks and many of the more polished outtakes from the Smile sessions (in particular the ones on the Good Vibrations boxset) in terms of arrangements.  Of course they sound light years apart in terms of recording equipment advances in the past 40 years, and Brian's voice sounds nothing like it did back in '66 but in terms of pure arrangements many of them are identical.  Which makes me wonder just how "unfinished" Smile really was.  I think a better word might be "abandoned"

You make a good point, but you're functioning under the assumption that Brian had finished writing by the time he abandoned Smile in '67.  I think that had he seen it through to completion, there would have been a lot more to it that we never got to hear.  A lot would have been the same, yes, but there likely would have been new sections for some of the songs, or perhaps completely new songs all together.  We obviously don't know, but I don't think finishing it in '67 would have been as (relatively) easy as recording some lead vocals and splicing pre-existing sections together.  This, of course, leads us back to the question of whether a '67 Smile would have been comprised of "movements" like BWPS or 12 standalone tracks.  I tend to lean towards the latter, which is why I don't look to BWPS for answers about the original work.

BWPS, at its essence, was compiled from what they had to work with, and not necessarily reflective of what the final product may have sounded like in '67.  The arrangements are mostly identical because, at the outset, there wasn't really the idea to do any significant new composition, but to merely polish what was already there.

We don't know exactly what was recorded in 1966-67, so, it's conjecture. But, based on BWPS being a representation of the SMiLE songs, which songs needed to be completed and how long do you think it would've taken to record it?

I don't think it would've taken terribly long, and some of the vocals might've already been recorded - we just never heard them.

It's pretty clear that after the beginning of the new year 1967, Brian for the most part stopped working on pretty much all of the titles associated with SMiLE to work solely on 'H&V' and 'Veggies'.  Whether or not this is because he felt the other titles were complete (or awfully close), or because he knew he needed to get out a single (and Heroes and Veggies were the two most, I guess 'obvious' candidates for this) I don't know.  What would be the reason that he would work on only two songs for 4 months?

I agree we don't really know how close or if he was done with SMiLE. He could have been, he may have burned the masters. It seems to me some of the people around felt he was at least close if not done.

I'm going to guess Good Vibrations is the reason he spent so much time on H&V and Vt. I personally think the H&V Pt II sessions aren't for the radio single but that supposed b side of the 45 single. So possibly [I didn't count] compared to GV Bdub had spent the same or less energy on the SMiLE H&V single and even less on a supposed SS Vt single.

I know in the Les Chan interview from late in the 70's, Brian is asked if he'd ever considered, or ever will consider going solo, and he said then pretty adamantly "no, I don't believe in doing solo albums. I don't believe in spreading it too thin. Keep it in the group." Of course one decade later he was vamping up an awkward solo career with Landy... but such is the tale of Brian's life. It's likely that Brian didn't hold himself in such a high regard in '67 that he fancied himself "solo"... he needed to be wrapped in something close to home. It's just that that wrapping (The Beach Boys) wasn't as "inspired" as he found himself, so he had to always look outside. At the time of Smile, he got to a point where he says he feared his name... he feared what people were trying to pump him up into, so the only safe thing he felt he could do was retreat into the background.

I'm also reminded of an interview he did in '64 regarding his singing on the song "Blue Christmas" when the reporter asks, "could this be the start of a whole new career for you?" And at that point Brian said "I don't know." or something to the effect, "We'll see."

What's obvious is that these days he doesn't seem to really believe in the current Beach Boys lineup, and has said many times that on the basis of that, "I'm doing my own thing now. More interested in my own thing."

Naturally it's conjecture, but given that Brian has said that he would have needed "another year" to finish, it's reasonable to assume (if you believe his comment, of course) that the finished product in '67 would have contained elements that had yet to be composed when he abandoned the project.   

As others have alluded to, the fact that he only focused on a few songs from January on would have definitely delayed the completion of other songs.  Some were obviously near complete, such as "Worms," possibly "Wonderful," and "Cabinessence," but others were in need of more work, either additional writing, recording, or both.  Specifically, I'm thinking of things like "Barnyard," "I'm In Great Shape," and "The Elements."  I just think there was a lot more to do than just record some lead vocals and make some splices.

Some really good points being shared.  It just occurred to me while reading the last few posts that it took Brian 6 months to make "Good Vibrations".  Now as he was applying the same type of writing and recording style to Smile if he had carried on at that rate Smile would have taken approximately 9 years to complete!!  Brian may have fell victim to his own self imposed,impossibly high sense of perfectionism. Makes me think of the story of the painter who paints a masterpiece then spends years adding more stokes to it until it is ruined.  I hope that doesn't come off as pompous as I am well aware my own songwriting abilities are about 1,000,000nth of that to Brian's and who knows just what tricks Brian had up his sleeve in regards to the Smile material.  I just wish in hindsight somebody like Carl had took him to one side (when he wasn't high) and told him he had a masterpiece on his hands, now finish it up and get it out to the masses - pronto!  Of course the thing with hindsight is its never available at the time!!

I don't put much stock into Brian's comment about needing another year to finish SMiLE. That comment was taken from one of his BWPS interviews, which I personally don't put much credence in. Two years to finish an album? Brian Wilson? In 1966-67? No way.

Yeah, "Good Vibrations" took a while to complete, and I do think that was the start of Brian's "tinkering" (and I say that respectfully); but he was still composing at a very fast pace. Composing fast, finishing not as fast I'll grant you. I don't think, however, that you can use "Good Vibrations" as the rule; I think it's more an exception, "Heroes And Villains" also being an exception.

But, I'm from the 12 separate songs SMiLE school of thought, as opposed to movements and link tracks. I put a lot of stock in Brian's ability to compose/produce great fades, and I also put a lot of stock in the song list submitted to Capitol Records (whoever did the handwriting). If I take each SMiLE song a track at a time, I see a project that was 80-85% finished, with some lead/backing vocals needed, and some tying together of some segments. How long would've that taken? Well, Brian did the Smiley Smile album in three weeks. Just one man's opinion, doesn't mean much... :police:

The real tragedy, in my opinion, is that it seems like the most significant missing piece on a number of songs are the lead vocals.  We have a basically finished Prayer (intro).  We have a basically finished version of wonderful (which would have had that fade from the box set vegetables, perhaps, and some missing link into it).  We have a basically finished "Old Master Painter" - the fade of which was appropriated, but then likely unappropriated, so we can call that essentially finished.  We have a basically finished Wind Chimes, which just needs to be "produced," by which I mean cut up and put together so that the chorus repeated twice (which it seems was the original intent).  We have a basically finished cabinessence, which was until 68 missing only the lead vocal .  We have Do You Like Worms, missing only a lead vocal (and sounding woefully incomplete for it's absence).  We have a basically finished Child is the Father of the Man, again, missing the lead vocal.  Based on that tantalizing interview segment where Dennis played a version of the song with lyrics for a reporter, this lyric and vocal existed on tape once upon a time.  We almost certainly have a finished or nearly finished 6 minute version of heroes and Villians intended to be spread over two sides of a 45 and played for a reporter by mike love, referenced by other Beach Boys and participants.  This is, again, tragically missing.  We have a basically finished vegetables.  So this leaves us with only Surf's Up (which thank god was finished in the early 70s.) and the Elements, which seem to be the only two major tracks which Brian had left unfinished. 

So my thesis, I guess, is that a number of smile songs only needed lead vocals/sweatening.  oh that Carl had taken it in his head to put Child is the Father of the Man on 20/20!  Or that Do You Like Worms had made it to LA Light Album.  Then those tracks would prob now be thought of as as finished as Cabinessence!  I'm in Great Shape is a mystery in terms of song structure, but was probably, in my opinion, a song made up of the fragments (barnyard, Im in Great Shape, perhaps others) thrown out of Heroes by the time of the Cantina Mix (a companion piece to the similarly thrown out of Heroes "You Were My Sunshine."  And therefore possibly mostly recorded, if we just knew what order to put the fragments in.  And, ofcourse, missing the lead vocals! 

With a Brian Wilson-sound alike to record lead vocals, and the help of a few more demos/lyric sheets/missing acetates which I pray will someday come to light, we could one day have an incredibly finished sounding Smile Album, missing only The Elements!

The other part of my thesis, that Brian was fully capable of finished the album, he just didn't want to. 

wow that was long winded. 

I'm really not sure about those, and even on the other songs, it's a little shakey. Like others are saying, with more time, a lot of these songs could have been taken places none of us could even begin to dream of - BWPS and later edits of the material generally only make use of existing sections.

I think Brian still had ideas as to where things were headed with some of these songs, but we'll never really know. The "needed another year" claim doesn't sound too far fetched - Brian worked fast in those days, true, but it was becoming clear that he was wanting to devote more time to music. He was spending more time on his music over the year or two before it, so wanting to take another year for it doesn't seem like too much, to me.

I'm just wondering now, would it have been possible for them to stall by putting out an alternate album full of left overs?

Obviously the music scene was changing, and Good Vibrations presented a new direction; but plenty of record buyerswould still be slow to catch up to the new sounds.

I'm wondering if they could've passed off a new album with cuts like "Graduation Day" "Little Girl I Once Knew" "All Dressed Up For School" "Their Hearts Were Full of Spring", finish the track for what later became "Sherry She Needs Me", and include "Good Vibrations". That's half an album right there.

I'm not an expert, but hey, that kind of idea worked with the Party album. Maybe Brian could've got another 6-12 months out of it to work on SMiLE. Thoughts?

To me the problem does not seem to be how long it would take, if Brian wanted to do more and take longer he just did and Capitol would deal with it; especially since they had drug Capitol into court wanting to break their contract at the time. To me the bottom line would look like, Brian stopped working on almost everything except the singles because he already had everything else as far along as he wanted. When what he had didn't work for him anymore, as dictated by his muse  and tastes and expectations, he scrapped it. If Brian wanted to take it up again later, he just would have without coaxing. Anyways, imo it was just a straight forward deal for Brian: this'll be cool - I'm doin' it - whoops, doesn't grab me - dump it - new direction and mood - boom - done a year from beginning. Not to say I'm one of those SS is SMiLE types, I'm one of those SS instead of SMiLE types.

I have at times wondered if he had done Pet Sounds as a solo, "Featuring The Beach Boys", and followed that with Smile as a solo, again "Featuring The Beach Boys", and in the interrim done proper Beach Boy albums, if perhaps that might have worked.   

I would say Cam basically has it right but there's a little more. We had a firestorm here a few years back (with Fire music!) after BWPS came out when one of the BB insiders (Alan Boyd?) told us that some lead vocals had been tracked, but then were erased, possibly by Brian himself to prevent anyone else from finishing Smile without his OK.   No overt confirmation from anyone else that anything was deliberately erased, or personally erased by Brian, as I recall at the time.  Big food fight over the truth of that, except that Darian sort-of confirmed there might be something to it. In one interview he says he heard - and was able to suss out - "ghost" vocals bleeding in on a Smile session track, but there being no existing vocal track on that reel where you could hear the vocals full volume.  Thus suggesting they may have been there at one point, then were erased, but not completely.  (This can happen if the multi-track is not perfectly aligned, so that the erase/recording heads do not fully record over the erased track).  But: Erased deliberately?  Were the vocals bounced to another reel which remains unfound so that something else could be tracked in their place?  The Shadow knows...

No need to go there again - just go back and check the prior discussion.  Maybe one of the mods can post the path to that thread.

The "ghost" vocals were backing vocals not on the multitracks/mixdowns, not lead vocals.

As for putting out an alternate album of left overs to buy time - that was Smiley Smile, wasn't it?  Remember, there was still talk of putting out Smile after Smiley came out.  But Brian had lost interest.

As for which tracks were completed, or completed with the exception of some lead vocals: Good Vibrations, Worms, Wind Chimes, Child is Father, Wonderful, Old Master Painter, Heroes and Villains, Cabinessence, and Vegetables seem to fit the bill - but it's not clear, despite Dennis playing Child to a reporter (probably on the piano) that lyrics had been written for the verses.  He was dissatisfied with Wonderful, rerecording it twice (January and April, both incomplete), and he was still tinkering with Heroes despite the fabled five to six minute mix that was done and played by Mike to a reporter.  And Old Master Painter had been cannibalized to finish Heroes, so was now without a third section/ending.

That leaves incomplete I'm in Great Shape, The Elements, and Surf's Up as needing the most extensive work.  He even mentions in May that finishing the track the Elements was giving him problems, seemingly making that track an important roadblock, psychologically (with the fire thing) as well as musically.

While we're discussing what exactly Brian had complete and what was left to mix/record/etc., where the hell does Domenic Priore come up with this idea that at one of the May sessions that were cancelled, Brian was going to do the final mix of the album? In that last SMiLE book he did, he even went so far to say 'several musician accounts of this particular cancellation suggest that this session was for the purpose of editing together the SMiLE album'.  I've never heard anybody other than him suggest this. Anyone have any idea what he's talking about?

I have no idea whether this proposed "mixing session" was scheduled or not, but....

I do believe that Brian could've finished SMiLE with a couple of those sessions with all of the guys there, busting their tails, including the Wrecking Crew and The Beach Boys. Again, Brian could record a lot of things in a short period of time, and, even if he just took one song a day for a week, I believe he could've completed it. Twelve or thirteen stand-alone songs that is.

12 stand alone tracks is what I believe it would have been (with The Elements being the suite), and isn't Brian quoted as saying at the time (to paraphrase), "There won't be any jokes per se, but somebody might say something in between tracks"?   This always gave me the impression of stand a lone tracks with odd little bits inbetween.
But I'd agree with the assertion that had they put in the effort, it could have been completed.

Has anyone ever tried to track down the reporter responsible for the "cowboy song" quote about child is the father of the man?  I wonder if he would remember something more, or have more extensive notes that didn't make the article?  Because it's just that one line, a "cowboy song" which is so confusing about that dennis interview.  How the heck is child is the father a cowboy song?   And how would the reporter know if not from a verse lyric.  Could Dennis have introduced it as such?  why?  or, if dennis was just playing pieces he knew on the piano, perhaps what the reporter actually heard was some fragment of heroes and villians, and misunderstood the titles?  As for the 5-6 minute heroes, i remain ever optomistic!  There are many places in the world such an acetate could be hiding!

According to the Mike Vosse article Brian recorded chimes and bells at different speeds during the piano part. That's why I think there was more even to the songs we consider finished these days.
"You're Welcome" is missing on your list, the first and only released finished song from the original SMiLE sessions.

Why didn't Brian just release SMiLE as a solo record? Because, as we discovered in 2004, it'd be nowhere near as good without the rest of the Beach Boys vocal contributions...

Or Brian releasing Smile in 1967 and Brian releasing Smile in 2004 could not be more different situations.

Not exactly.  No chimes or bells, what Vosse described was an alternate mix Brian played on acetate where he faded in the vocals in the break one at a time, building up the rhythm, the voices sounding “like little percussion instruments.”  This mix hopefully exists somewhere on acetate (Durrie Parks).

Your point that even the seemingly "finished" tracks lacking only a lead vocal would have likely undergone revision and changes in the mix (particularly use of echo, fading out the instrumental track in spots, an instrumental overdub here and there) is certainly valid.  But these "almost completed" tracks would not have taken long to complete, assuming Brian knew what he wanted to do with them and could commit to finish them.

For what it's worth, the guitar rhythm on the verse along with the harmonica (doing the "baby wail") make the track sound like a "cowboy song". Of course, Dennis was reportedly playing this on the piano, right? If he retained that loping "Happy Trails" rhythm when playing it for the reporter, I could see how it might be mistaken for a country & western number, especially when compared to the rhythm styles and melodies the Beach Boys were known for up until that point.

I like you. A lot.

As for putting out an alternate album of left overs to buy time - that was Smiley Smile, wasn't it?  

This quote got me thinking ; has anyone anywhere EVER read or heard an interview where Brian talks about Smiley Smile?  I cannot even think of one single reference he has made to it in 43 years!!  It seems to be a complete mystery as to what he actually thinks about the album.  Is he proud of it? Embarrassed?  Does he think it's a steaming pile of dog turds?  Does he consider it better than Smile? Does he acknowledge it was a mistake?  Lots of questions I know (I know!) but it does seem strange that the we have the pivotal album in the BB's career - the LP whose Butterfly Effect  would shape everything that would befall them in the future.............  and we have no idea or even statement on how the main culprit feels about it.

From the Mike Vosse article:
"He took the tail end of "Wind Chimes" - which the way it was originally recorded was, again much more beautiful than on Smiley Smile - and he had a minute and a half tag on it where he took a stand-up tack piano and a grand piano and, a track at a time, did little music box overdubs and then he went in and mixed them with different echoes on different channels into ... I've never heard anything like it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRFE-24ucxc

I also read an interview somewhere where Brian just describes it as their 'sto-o-ned' album or something like that haha.

And that is just a description of the tag we know isn't it?

ARRRGGGHHHHH.

Has it ever been said why Van Dyke can't get to these? Absolutely mind boggling to think what could be on those acetates. Could be little of interest, but at the same time... :|

I think if the Durrie Parks acetates were of interest to Brian's entourage (since he owns the rights to the recordings), they would have been borrowed, catalogued, copied to tape, and returned by now. Keep in mind, these acetates might not exactly be on the shortlist of lost treasures on shellac. Not everything is as important as the Velvet Underground and Nico 1966 acetate.

And plus too, the acetates might be of negligible musical interest, not to mention sound quality.

Let's take stock of what circulates from the Smile sessions from acetate sources, in chronological order -

Prayer rough mix, 10/4/66 (1:07)
Prayer rough mix, 10/4/66 (deliberate edit of vocal phrase before the "hmmmmm") (0:58)
Cabinessence backing track, 10/11/66 (4:05)
The Old Master Painter "final" mono mix, 11/30/66 (1:08)
The Old Master Painter "part 2" mono mix, 11/30/66 (1:12)
The Old Master Painter "part 2" mono mix ("Barnshine"), 11/30/66 (0:53)
Cabinessence chorus rough mix, 12/6/66 (0:29)
Cabinessence verse/chorus/tag rough mix, 12/6/66 (later booted in two-track binaural stereo from tape source) (2:25)
Child Is Father of the Man tag/bridge/chorus rough mix, 12/6/66 (1:55)
Child Is Father of the Man tag/chorus/bridge/chorus rough mix, 12/6/66 (1:41)
Barnyard mono mix, 12/13/66 (1:02)
Do You Like Worms parts 1-3 rough mix, 12/21/66 (different vocal parts during Hawaiian section) (3:36)
Heroes and Villains verse rough mix, 12/22/66 (Brian lead vocal, heavily reverbed) (0:52)
Cabinessence chorus/tag rough mix, 12/27/66 (later booted in two-track binaural stereo from tape source) (1:46)
Cabinessence "finished" verse/chorus/verse/chorus/tag mix, 12/27/66 (Carl's reference for the 20/20 version) (3:22)
Heroes and Villains "Bicycle Rider" mono mix, 1/5/67 (features prevalent "what have you done" vocals) (0:32)
Heroes and Villains "Bicycle Rider" mono mix, 1/5/67 (features less prevalent "what have you done" vocals) (0:31)

Still - I would bet that if this had been done yet, it would have been done after 93 when the Good Vibrations box came out. No mention has been made of them being recovered etc. and we certainly haven't heard anything.

Is there any idea of how many of these acetates exist?  Durrie Parks has some apparently, Bruce has said he has one at least, and I would think Brian would have some, or one of the other band members possibly. 

Hasn't Mark said that they have catalogued every single piece of Smile material? I remember reading that here last year. Does that render the Durrie acetates redundant?

I wonder, were some key treasure to be found, on say the durrie parks acetates, would those in the know say anything about it?  or would they just make a few safeties and bide their time until the long awaited day when it can be released officially? 

Thanks for the link.  Brian sorta tells us alot without actually saying too much if you know what I mean.

I know. He sorta skims over the fact that he had just wasted hundreds of thousands of dollars and countless recording sessions just to 'junk it'.

I always thought that "Brian' sounded a lot like Carl on this recording. I think we even covered that on this board, but I'll be damned if I can remember who we decided it really was.

Something that very much intrigues me... doesn't one of the 'Smile's on Andrew Doe's unreleased albums page include a 12-minute "Heroes and Villains"?  What the heck would make up a 12-minute version of that??

I mean, I can see ten minutes (my own preferred edit, combining the single version, the Cantina "part 1", the Bicycle Rider interlude, and "part 2" comes out to ten and a half minutes, IIRC), but there's still a bit missing...

I don't know. Music box overdubs? Is that just the piano part without any further sounds? I expected something like the bells from that unconnected H&V intro session.

Maybe something that I dreamed about the other night? A version that uses the first verse ("I've been..." --> "heroes and villains") as a recurring chorus! It never repeated one performance, though, but used the Smiley version, the Cantina version and even the live versions from In Concert and the Endless Harmony soundtrack. It worked well in the dream, and I remember thinking that they must have changed the speed and/or the key (maybe with that apparatus used on "She's Goin' Bald"?) to make it all go together.

Thanks!

No, that means they've catalogued every piece of Smile material still existing in the Beach Boys tapevault.  There's lots of tapes missing and presumably there are actetates that have material on them from the missing tapes - we just don't know what's on the acetates out there.

Here is my take for what it's worth [nothin']:

1. That January version of Wonderful was a b-side H&V single version to replace the H&V single Part 2 b-side, discontinued when H&V Part 2 was later re-instated to the H&V single b-side. April version another possibility fo the b-side of a proposed post-SMiLE Vt single.

2. Anything after the March H&V wasn't SMiLE era.

3. The third section of OMP was borrowed for the short-lived cantina version of the H&V single but a different version of it was soon recorded for the b-side H&V Part 2 which presumably left OMP intact if it was ever the plan to not have that ending on the OMP in the album and also on the H&V single.

The rest I can't say but I have a feeling that they were far enough along that Brian felt comfortable with being able to finish and mix down an album in short order, if many/most of the tracks hadn't already been so mixed, and so turned almost all his attention to the H&V single.

What do you think?

Sounds like you fell asleep with your headphones on and the iPod playing all your fave versions of "Heroes.." on repeat!!

Correct on the reworkings of Wonderful - but the fact that he was reworking it shows he wasn't satisfied with the first version (or why not just use it for the Bside of Heroes or Vegetables?).

If the rerecord of the fade was for the Bside of Heroes, what would be the fade for the Aside?  If he kept the cantina mix as the A side, then both would fade with the OMP fade, but a different mix (cantina) and different version (Bside).  I would think that would preclude using the same fade a third time with OMP.  If he reworked the Aside, we don't have any clear evidence what he would have used as a fade, it might be possible that he would have used it twice, once with OMP and once with the Heroes Bside, but then again he may have concluded that OMP was now unfinished and another "problem" track along with the elements.

Disagree that the April Vegetables sessions weren't Smile era sessions, but that's just a personal preference on how you want to define what is Smile and what is post Smile.  The Derek Taylor Smile is junked quote isn't until May, correct?

It might have meant he was making a special single-only version of Wonderful, wasn't there precedent that the album version wasn't always the single version? Also he expressed concern about giving too much away about SMiLE with the single. Not sure.

Part 1 was reworked and longer than the cantina version and several Part 1 sessions immediately followed the cantina version so I am making the assumption that the cantina version was probably no longer intake. My assumption is the H&V a-side would no longer have that fade as it had moved to the Part 2 b-side. What the known Part 2 b-side tracks have in common is they reference the non-H&V album tracks, so in my mind the reworked OMP/cantina fade became a Part 2 reference to OMP instead of the H&V Part 1 fade.

Yes, an announcement was published on May 6, in an article written by May 2, that it had already been junked. When had it previously been junked is the interesting question. Taylor is already reporting in March the problems with the single and album, they are done, then not done, delayed, then not delayed, withheld , then not withheld, etc.. In the third week of April Taylor reveals that Brian has deep problems with the very nature of the material, this is after the April Vt. So Vt could still fall under SMiLE but I think SMiLE was already junked.  I base that on the April change of the title of Vt from the SMiLE title of "Vega-Tables" to the SS title "Vegetables" for one. The natural break of activity after early March coinciding with the reporting of uncertainty around the trial and the future of the SMiLE album and single for another. Thirdly, BW and Marilyn have associated the buying of the Bellagio house with following the junking of SMiLE and they had a deed for that house on March 28 and NME reported they were already moving in by April 3.