The Smiley Smile Message Board

What's the deal with the printed (but never used) album jackets. The back has all the Beach Boys (minus Brian!?) in their normal pin-striped button shirts  (well, actually more like cross-hatch shirts... but you get my point. Didn't they get past this look 'ie Pet Sounds').

So, you mean to tell me Brian didn't want his photo to appear on this album? I find this strange considering he put his heart and soul into it (just like Pet Sounds).

What year were the SMiLE jackets printed out?

Nope!!! They were striped until 1968! A big reason that people say an appearance at Monterey would have gone badly.

Brian approved the cover, so yes, it was with his consent.

1967! Early.

That's crazy! Why the heck didn't he want to be on the cover?

Strange. I mean, i know he didn't care about limelight... but a photo on a album cover never hurt anyone.

:/

this was discussed before so this is not my idea,
but Brian had a 2 page photo of himself in the booklet
that's about as much limelight you need

Whoever selected that album photo did a real good job. Too bad it was never released. Its timeless looking to me, im sure Brian approved because they dont look corny at all. Brian wasnt on the cover of 20/20 or Friends but is on Sunflower, maybe thats a decision Brian made.

Now the cover of Smile did look cheesy.

The photo was taken while the band was on tour. Hence no Brian.

The booklet orders were dated 12/8/66 (for LA, 100,000 copies) and 12/19/66 (Scranton, 300,000 copies). Both plants were required to deliver by the first week in January. There's also an 11/14/66 memo concerning a change to the front slick (from stereo to DuoPhonic). To the best of my knowledge, the back slick never progressed beyong an artists proof - apparently the version we know has, in its original state, notations indicating many changes.

Not an important point, but I think Brian IS pictured on the "Friends" cover.

We need to get confirmation of this. Who was it who claimed to have seen this? I forget. Let's grill him and get someone to investigate this. Who would have the original proof? Capitol? The Art Department? Where's Jasper?

Brad Elliott claimed he had seen it, didn't he? But he's probably not the only one. Alan Boyd? Peter Reum?

Hello.

In the first place, there is no evidence covers were assembled. Second, I owner a proof of the back cover for years. A couple of other people do as well. I get tired of dealng with the same questions over and over. The cover was NEVER assembled, and the back cover was not completed. There is a cover for Lei'd in Hawaii, which WAS Brother 9002.

 ;D

Okay, what was the cover for Lei'd In Hawaii? First time I've heard of that!

This one [waves sleeve].

Cool, huh ?

 :D

Well, what did the hand written notes say? That's all I'm asking.

"You're fucking with the formula again, Brian"

Yeah, it was probably Mike's handwriting.



Cabinessence Wind Chimes Do You Like Worms
Barbara Ann (Live), I Get Around (Live), Papa Oom Mow Mow (Live)


Produced by Brian Wilson Brian & Mike (Watch for their new single, "Getting Hungry", coming soon!)

 :D

Screw you guys. I'm looking back with Love.

 ;D

What do you mean covers were not assembled? Do you mean the album jacket itself was not assembled? I thought they printed 400,000 SMiLE albums covers.

I imagine what Peter means is that the front cover slicks were printed but never pasted onto the cardboard cover assembly. Which certainly makes sense if the rear slick design was never completed. Still means that somewhere, for some time, there were 400,000 unused Smile front slicks just sitting in a warehouse, waiting to be disposed of.

Makes you cry, doesn't it?

But Peter, tell us more about the Lei'd in Hawaii cover. AFAIK that's never been mentioned -much less seen- ....anywhere...

Bumping again, hoping for an answer about Lei'd In Hawaii.

Har har, Andrew, very funny.

You forgot Little Deuce Coupe!

Hello ? Anyone listening out there ?

The back slick shot was taken when the band were on tour in 1966.

Brian wasn't touring in 1966.

Therefore, he wasn't in the picture.

Same reason that I'm not in Leonardo's 'Last Supper' - I wasn't there.  ;)

BUT the question is why would a picture be chosen sans Brian, not why Brian is not in the picture. Someone needs to Photoshop Doe into the Last Supper, though.

Ummmmm... because that's how Brian wanted it ? He's got a huge solo color shot in the booklet.

Yeah, I know that! Some other peoples are slow to grasp that, though.

But dammit, that's the only reason!

Years ago, there was a front-cover slick in Rockaway Records in Silverlake selling for $5,000.  Pretty intensely cool thing to see.

There aren't any Capitol internal memoes requesting/approving the destruction of 400+K SMiLE "covers" and booklets?

Yeah, me an' Leo, back then we were like... that.

(http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/8220/lastsupper9ck.jpg)

What a nostalgic thread! Some of my favorite Smile conversations involved the story of the various Smile covers and variations. I think a large chunk of the saga has been posted online at various times at various places over the last few years.

Always look at the top of any Smile front cover, and whether it reads "Duophonic" or "Full Dimensional Stereo". That would be the key to determining how much money you'd want to shell out for a "genuine" Smile cover at auction, or the pedigree/history of ones you may see hanging on display or being offered for auction somewhere. :)

The back cover was shot in Boston I believe, along with some of the Smile booklet photos (from one of Boston's harbors and backstage...), along with other BB's photos which didn't make it into the Smile project. Even if that back cover never made beyond the mock-up stages, I think it was a pretty lame back cover. It has absolutely *no* relevance to the album, or the music supposed to be on that album. Brian or no Brian, I just never dug that back cover concept at all, even though it was/is just a mock-up. Unless Brian wanted us to laugh at the whole idea of that bad photo, which I think Vosse or someone else hinted at in an interview - If I remember he even called it a bad photo, suggesting it was done on purpose.

What is this about a Leid In Hawaii album cover??? This isn't a put-on, is it?

Thanks for the info, guys.

Does anyone have a decent image of the various front and back cover of these SMiLE albums? And, how much are they worth?

Buy a book on the BB's. Then come back.  ;D

Assuming everyone's seen the Bruce Spizer books on the Beatles releases- what would you all give for The Beach Boys Story On Capitol Records, with those same production values...?

One volume for singles, one for LPs...

Andrew, how busy are you these days?

This should probably have been a new thread.

I'm pretty certain they wouldn't be in Capitol plants/warehouses except as finished "covers": cardboard sleeve with front and back liners printed and glued in place by Queens Litho [and their subcontractors] and BertCo in the case of the SMiLE album covers.  If the story of the "destruction" memoes regarding SMiLE covers are bogus, then that is a different story I guess.

Cam, you probably recall this better than I, but weren't the slicks trashed in something like 1979 ?

Or was that a typo for 1969... whatever, they're in a northern NJ landfill now.

All my information indicates that beyond about 6-10 mockups, no finished covers ever existed. Of course, the back slick couldn't have been printed much before Christmas anyway, for the obvious reason.

Brad reported those memoes were from August and October 1969 the way I got it.  Never saw them of course; would like to and have them looked at by Capitol/Queens Litho former employees.

From my understanding, the front liner prints [SMiLE shop] from that time are probably either pre-press stats or could be press proofs, a short run done by the litho company on the press and sent back for approval by the Producer and Capitol before mass production for the album covers.  The actual album front liner prints probably went from the litho press to the fabricators to be pasted on to the cardboard sleeve along with the back liner which would be printed by the fabricator and glued on as well with the finished covers then shipped to the Capitol plants.

There were never any assembled covers. I know people who were there in the Sixties, Seventies, Eighties, and Nineties. The archives include samples of the booklet, front, and unfinished back covers. No one ever saw an assembled cover because the back cover was never completed. People who have worked there through the decades have all said the same thing. Several of them have unfinished back covers. An assembled one is the bigfoot of the Smile world.

Peter, please...

Sasquatch.

 :D ;D Andrew, you were at the last supper!

(http://i1.tinypic.com/nvv5lz.jpg)

That's a keeper !

Thanks, mate.

I talked to George Osaka, the Art Director for Capitol, Gene Voris of Capitol's Production department, on the memoes in LLVS, and Richard Roth of Queens Litho, assistant to Barry Cohen, on the memoes in LLVS, at the time. All recognized the artwork when sent to them but none remembered specifically what happened to the SMiLE album covers and they were all directly involved.

Mike seemed to have known there were "sleeves" finished in April 1967 which showed song titles and order that would not be accurate anymore in July 1967.

If the covers were destroyed, it makes sense none exist I suppose but it is curious that there is no corrected back liner proof in the files; although lots of material seems to have escaped from those files over the years.

I'm just sayin' it doesn't seem as Bigfooty to me.....

You would think a corrected back cover slick would have existed in the Capitol art archive if it had been corrected, wouldn't you?  There were booklet proofs and front cover slicks.  If the back cover never got corrected, then the covers couldn't have been assembled.  Which would mean that only the front cover slicks were destroyed in 1969 - the back was never printed.  Would there need to be a separate P.O. and printing request for the back cover slick?

The tracklisting was handed in - by whomever - mid-December... allow, say, two weeks to mock up the back slick. Factoring in Xmas and such, you're looking at early January, by which time Capitol were aware the album wouldn't deliver until 1/15. Deadline passes, no master and bells begin to ring in the Tower.

Hence no completed, corrected back slick.

What happened to this Leid In Hawaii album cover? Or is there also new 8mm footage of Bigfoot/Sasquatch making the rounds? ;)

I would think a corrected proof would be in the file which brings up the question about the state/security of the files.  I wonder also if similar files for the other BBs' albums are complete or all contain proofs for back liners/artwork.

On the other hand, my understanding is everything was ready and approved before covers were begun, so the fact that covers are mentioned as in existence in memo should mean the covers were complete and shipped to Capitol. Unless the info about what the inventory memoes say is incorrect of course.

POs would be the thing to see, what was actually ordered and paid for by Capitol; wasn't this Capitol's-financial-records-angle what Brad was working on at one time.  I had tried to get info from some of the companies involved and mentioned in the memoes but if the companies still exist they don't retain records back to 1967 or those records may be incomplete.  For instance, Queens Litho still had a card catalog for files they retain from even before 1967 but even though Cap memoes refer to POs with Queens for 2580 no card for Capitol 2580 could readily be found; the question is do no records exist or is the card for the records misplaced, lost, destroyed etc..  Maybe a more extensive search, if they still retain the records [ I think Queens was bought since], than they were likely [but kindly] to do for me might produce something.

Something slipped me by - Capitol knew way earlier than I thought that Smile might be in trouble. The memo stating that it wouldn't be delivered by 1/1/67 but "in all probability some time before January 15" is dated 12/16/66, the day Brian told Karl Engeman he couldn't deliver on time (for the second time, apparently - the original release date was pre-Xmas). Thus Capitol knew before the track listing was handed in (or very shortly after) that the album was at least a month away.

Magical thinking on the part of a few board members won't make an assembled Smile cover appear. The facts are that the back slick didn't get finished, so how could a finished cover be assembled, except in one's imagination?

I am simply not ready to talk about the Lei'd cover. It'll be in the book.

(http://www.trolleriprofessorn.se/magician.jpg)

ABRACADABRA!

But since Brian (or whoever) claimed the album would be done mid-January-ish, surely the tracklisting he (or whoever) submitted must have some validity. Was he just BSing the label, giving them false hope? Was the tracklisting and the back photo all an elaborate joke?

Capitol was expecting an album mid-Jan and started pressing covers. Okay, so they didn't assemble them. They still made them.

I know why he doesn't appear on the photo on the back. Because it made him look all that much more cool and mysterious. And then he gets the big spread in the book. He's a genius and a man of mystery and you need a sketchbook look at his world to get even a slight understanding of him.

If I get time I'd like to compile a few additional quotes from this interview Michael Vosse gave some 36 or so years ago about Smile for a publication called "Fusion", specifically describing Brian's intentions on the Smile packaging and graphics.

To sum up what Vosse said - Brian *wanted* people to laugh at the photos, and deliberately had photos included that were unflattering to the subjects - the Beach Boys. And those shots of the Beach Boys wearing winter coats, freezing in a boat in a Boston harbor were part of the game - they were the complete opposite of the "fun in the sun" image so connected to the band name, and that shot placed them out of their "natural" warm-climate element.

Same thing with the individual shots of the band in the Smile booklet - Mike drinking milk, etc...they were not the most flattering shots, and again that's what Brian wanted. Vosse says similar things about the Frank Holmes Smile Shop album cover - Brian realized it was against the grain, and perhaps even corny, but he wanted it that way to make people laugh, or...Smile!

His trip, according to Vosse, was to have people laugh at things like those goofy photos. Here are a few of the key points and quotes:

"And he laid out for me what he felt at that time about humour - which is almost the key to Brian Wilson's scene, if there is one. He told me that laughter was one of the highest forms of divinity, and that when someone was laughing their connection with the thing that was making them laugh made them more open than they could be at just about any point."

He goes on to say:
"That's why they had something as dumb as the Smile Shop on the cover. And everybody who knew anything about graphics, and about art, thought that the cover was not terribly well done...but Brian knew better: He was right. It was exactly what he wanted."

And maybe the best quote of them all, after discussing the two-panel shot of Brian taken in front of the window shade in his kitchen:

"The pictures, though, were definitely unflattering, but they're the ones he wanted. I mean, he wanted people to laugh at them, and he wanted this guise of humour to be so sophisticated that the tremendous compassion - really, the depth of the album - would come right through all of that. To this vulnerable audience of people.




For my money, those words in bold above are some of the most honest and revealing ever spoken about the original Smile project. The Vosse interview should be required reading for anyone interested in Smile. That's the *real deal* from one of the few people who was directly involved in what was going on at that time.

Andrew - first of all, how do we know when the handwritten list was submitted - you seem to be assuming mid December, I'd always assumed early December, but do we have any evidence for a date?

Secondly, how much lead time for producing covers was customary at the time?  Seems like a month is not that excessive if we're talking about Dec 16 and then having the album come out Jan 15.

Peter - what book?

My understanding: From Capitol art directors, the artwork and approvals took however long they took.  From Voris separations took a week. From Richard Roth of Queens Litho, a week turnaround was customary for color front liners to be printed followed by time needed to ship to the fabricator, the fabricator assembled the front liner to a cardboard sleeve and the fabricator printed the back liner in black on plain bond paper [customary at the time]and applied it to the sleeve in another week and then the finished covers on a P.O. were shipped to the designated Capitol plant, Scranton in this case. This is why the covers in storage in a Capitol plant would'nt be incomplete covers. So if the 1969 memo is authentic and there were covers for Capitol 2580 in Scranton they would be complete finished covers. Anyone have a different understanding of this process in the mid-60s?

That would explain why Mike spoke of "sleeves", with song titles, finished in April that would now have to be "thrown out"; presuming by "sleeves" he meant the same thing as Mike Reese meant by "covers" in his alleged 1969 inventory destruction memo.

It doesn't explain why no known final proof for the back liner in the known files?  The memos we've seen seem to have mainly come from Production Department files of Ray Polley?  If the artwork we've seen did too, one would expect he should have had it. It's kind of wierd to use "disappeared" artifacts as proof of a non-disappearance from the same files. Or whatever. 

Anyway it seems hard to say much with certainty one way or another.

Peter... I'm assuming (bad thing to do, I know) that as the memo saying the album wouldn't deliver until about 1/15 or so was dated 12/16, it was written very shortly after Brian told Engeman about it (like, maybe minutes) and was maybe accompanied by the list (yes, I know, i'm turning into Cam here. Sorry). Of course, this is somewhat difficult to square with the fact that the list is manifestly not Brian's handwriting, nor that he told you he'd never seen it before. I'm wondering if maybe Engeman was told something like "Brian said to tell you...". Anyway, the memo is there.

Mike would have seen the mockup made by the Capitol art dept. Like Peter says, there were no finished covers, because the back slick was never printed up. Had it been, they guy who pulled the front slick seperations out of the dumpster would have salvaged that too. I think the not-insignificant fact that in the nearly 40-odd years since the sessions, a finished cover has never even been rumored, much less sighted, speaks volumes. Booklets exist, that we know (I've handled one). Sleeves don't.

Can the person who has or has seen the version with the red ink on it to maybe give some insight about what it may have said? Any songs crossed out? Can’t we reverse the effects of the dreaded “red ink filter” and use the secret decoder ring to find out what it said?

Great Shape    Baby Got Back


We now take you to another episode of “Bubba Ho-Tep Argues with Himself”.

Look, it makes no sense that a list of songs would be delivered without Brian’s knowledge, unless it was merely a diversionary tactic done by Carl to buy the group more time. 12 titles sounds like a full album, which would explain why Vegetables is both an Element and a stand-alone track. But then, why not just include something like I Ran, which was probably a more complete track than Great Shape, which is, as far as we know, a discard piece of H&V passing itself off as a complete song. So Carl must have had some insight into what was going on the album. Hell, he could have put anything down on the list. Why not just write down a song called “Flim Flam Floom Day”? Who would know? Then again, maybe Carl and his list was full of sh*t. It was a red herring to keep the record company hopeful something was coming, when it was becoming clear to the group that they had nothing. They were going to have to overthrow the chief and do it themselves. Brian wasted the next 5 months just trying to concoct a single.

But it was December and Brian wasn’t a complete mental case at that point, was he? If Brian doesn’t recall the tracklisting, well, that’s no surprise, as I’m sure he didn’t put much thought into the Smile project after he abandoned it. He started recycling unused Smile riffs right away. He wasn’t waiting for some future release. It was done. But why argue the jacket tracklisting? Based on what’s in the vaults, how else could the album have come out? The only stickling point is what “Great Shape” would have consisted of.

Bubba, you ignorant slut. The only way we’ll figure this out is that someone needs to ask him, point blank. Walk him through it. “Okay, Brian. It’s December. The record is not going to be done in time, so you ask for more time. A list of songs is sent to Capital. They work on an album jacket. Frank Holmes. Ringing any bells, Brian? Did you really believe the album could be finished by Jan. 15? Were you trying to bamboozle the record company? Wasn’t “Smiliest Smile” going to consist of more stoned out versions of the remaining Smile songs and feature the color booket? But then you started jamming at Wally’s and realized that Wild Honey was the right way to go, especially since Smiley Smile was a commercial bomb? What did you do with the lead vocal tracks for Worms? We know you recorded them, Brian! How could you not? It would have taken 5 minutes. You record a scratch lead vocal and harmonies for a discarded scrap like “He Gives Speeches” but can’t be bothered to record one for Worms, one of the strongest pieces on the album? The same with Cabinessence! Stop wasting time recording nonsense vegetable chants and get to work! Why didn’t you finish the album? You didn’t need a year. You needed a month tops. You got lazy, Brian. What’s the matter? You make too much money, buddy? When you can’t sing from your heart, you’re going downhill, and if ever I heard singing that wasn’t from the heart, it’s the singing on Smiley Smile!! I’ll tie you to the tree until I get some answers. Dammit man, tell me what went down!!!!”

"My wife and my manager thought it was a bad idea... so we didn't do it then"

"Ya got any birthday cake ?"

Cam - it sounds like from your analysis that once the separations were done (which could have been done, and probably were, in advance of shipping to be printed) about three weeks were necessary for turnover for the slicks to be printed, shipped, and pasted onto covers.  So Dec. 16th was enough time before the projected release date of Jan 15th, even allowing for the records to be put into the covers and the albums shipped to stores. 

They replaced the Beatles “Yesterday and Today” Butcher sleeve fast enough…

I may be missing something Andrew, what is it exactly that is being proposed was in storage at 2 Capitol plants for Capitol 2580 for 2 years [besides the booklets]?

Fished out of a dumpster? That is how these files were obtained from Capitol? And we are taking it as a given that they are complete?

It not really my analysis really, it's what I was told by these guys who actually worked on the SMiLE album production; probably under 3 weeks if shipping allowed.

According to Voris he usually used Angel Photo Color [N. Hollywood] for separations which would be sent to the printers, Roth said Capitol always sent Queens Litho the separations.

My impression from these guys is they wouldn't print until the whole print/fab job was ready to go; still even, I suppose there are always exceptions but I don't think Capitol would authorize or accept at their plants 466,000 covers which were partial or incomplete. 

It's been 7 years but maybe I can get some clarification.

Cam, what are you proposing was sitting at the plants - a cardboard cover with only the front cover slick on it, nothing on the back?  I doubt the printers would assemble half a cover.

Nope.  No, I'm proposing they would not be at Capitol's plant except as finished covers with front  and back "slicks".

 Also if Mike saw only a mock-up with song titles, wouldn't it mean there was final art for the back liner on that mock-up?  But Mike isn't referring to a mock-up, he is referring to "many sleeves" "finished" "in April" "they can throw out" "because the the lineup of songs and some songs have changed".  Some cut and paste job, eh.

The printed but uncropped front slicks. I understand they were trashed solely to make sapce available. All half a million of them, less whatever slipped through (maybe 20 or so)


Yes... yes... and yes. Four color (red, green, blue and black) acetate seperations with register marks If you've ever seen one of Derek Bill's original 1978 prints, you'll know it's uncropped, and notably larger that 12" x 12". If any were missing, the colors wouldn't be anything like what they are. Trust me - I used to be a printer.

Cam, ol' buddy, I venerate your research and tenacity... but there comes a point where a good historian admits that what everyone else is telling him might just be true. Mainly because the facts support it.

Is that what the memo says they were, old friend? 


I'm not questioning the completeness of the separations you mention, I'm asking if the files, what seem to be Ray Polley's files, which memoes, proofs, marked up back liner art etc. on which we are drawing inferences were fished from a dumpster. 


Back at you, Andrew, my old friend.   :)

Actually, in my defense, I feel I've allowed all along for the possibilities and vaguaries.

I think there is room for 2 [or more] interpretations, maybe someday new sources may become available [like Capitol's PO/invoices/payment records] which would settle it more definitively.  As I said, I've tried to chase down those kinds of records from the contractors involved and they seem to no longer exist.  Hopefully, that is not the case with Capitol and those records still exist and become available with Capitol's cooperation rather than in a dumpster.  ;)

I'm a nuts and bolts kinda guy. I go with what we have.

Front slicks ? Check (granted, not many)

Booklets ? Check (even fewer)

Back slicks ? Errrrr...

Also, assuming the front slicks were used to make up completed covers...

1 - why are there not, say 20 completed covers knocking around ?

2 - why has there been no substantial, detailed mention of any completed covers ?

I'm backing what Peter (who's knowledge far exceeds mine) say - no completed sleeves were ever made. The closest it got was maybe half-a-dozen art dept mockups for the band to see. I've seen one of these (or to be fair, what i was told was one of these) - the back cover  is inferior in print quality to the front. I'm sure if I got to see it again, I'd notice the joints were a bit shabby. The guy's got a booklet too, and that's obviously the finished article.

Album junked, covers held in plants for collation with an album, album never pressed, covers never used, destroyed in 1969?


Good points, well stated, old pal. Agree to differ?

Sure.

(deep down, he knows I'm right...  8))

Ready to talk about the Lei'd cover yet?? ;) anyone?  ;D