The Smiley Smile Message Board

I find it very strange how Al and Mike seemed very tight in the late 70s and early 80s. But in a few years, if not over night, Al begin to side with Carl, and by the 90s, Mike and Al haven't seemed to get along at all.

Any thoughts?

Also, what was Carl and Al's relationship in the late 70s after Carl had cleaned up? There was a few years where they were in differing factions, but suddenly joined. I'm just wondering if they got along at that time.

I think Mike and Al were on the same page with TM and even as late as 1978 Mike was pushing for some modern things in the show, notably the Charles Lloyd segement. I think as Mike's idea of the group became more generic, Al was less happy. Carl and he probably did get along far better post 1978.

Thanks MBE. Very interesting.

I have heard that Bruce got along well with all of them. Is that true? Is he in speaking terms with all the living BBs today. Or in last years of Carl's life?

You're welcome, though I am just making an educated guess by reading Jardine's post 1997 interviews and looking at archive footage.

Bruce is a hard character to clasify. I would say he was probably everybody's friend and enemy probably in the same day. David Marks' book backs up a lot of what I have heard about him over the years. Basically that he can be super nice and he can be pretty rotten. Seems like he has a little dual personality to me.

Badman quotes Mike and Dennis about Bruce leaving in the early 70s and they're not exactly full of praise - although that didn't stop him having 'visitation' rights and didn't stop both of them working with him again.  And let's keep in mind that there moves to replace Bruce with Billy Hinsche in the late 60s - which oddly ties in with the period when the group were beginning to use his songs!  Go figure.

Yeah I am curious as to why he was going to leave. I think even Brian went with them to ask Billy.

Any source able to go on record yet on why the Brian/ Al reunion last year fell apart?

I suspect Al sided with Mike out of self-preservation, if nothing else.  It must have been obvious that the drugs and drink and BW's problems were taking a huge toll and that at least two of the Wilsons had become unreliable, in their eyes - especially after Murry's death.  Let's not forget that Al always seems caught between folk-type stuff and nostalgic r'n'r, so this summer is fun stuff wouldn't have been such a leap (although creatively, it's a leap down an abyss) and I suspect he saw his efforts on MIU as papering over the considerable cracks.

As for Bruce, I don't think he approved of the late 60s lifestyle of some of the other members of the group.  He absented (wisely) himself from the Hawaii trip (gone fishin'  :)) and he's talked (in the Granata (?) book) about longing for recording sessions where guys turned up neatly attired in sweaters - and he wasn't getting that, not even from Mike, who I suspect was considerably more conservative, politically and artistically, than the Wilsons.  I suspect Bruce is a nice guy and simply didn't like seeing what was going on around him.  No matter how much great music came from the 66-72 period, certain elements of the BB's lifestyle must have seemed chaotic and a far cry from the kind of existence he idealised in Disney Girls.

Wasn't he thinking of recording his own album in the late 60s anyhow?  Bluebirds, Tears?

"I am no doctor but..." I would have to agree with this assessment of Bruce. I have met him upwards of 10-12 times. I would say that 5-6 of those times he was the nicest guy you could meet. Asking ME questions, talking BB history in depth with little or no encouragement.  Once in fact, the venue did not have me on their pass list. Bruce took it upon himself (again, without my asking) to make sure I got in, had passes and the best tix available.  Even went as far as to say "you better stick close to me" to make sure I had no problems.  OTHER TIMES...the guy was the complete opposite.  Comments to me such as "how did YOU get in here?", and the like, all while I was simply standing off the side minding my own business.  I mention this only because I have talked to and heard from others with like experiences. All of the other guys were nothing if not consistent. You knew what you were going to get from them, even Brian.

As to relationships, who can say?  However, all throught the 90's the band had two dressing rooms, one shared by Mike and Bruce, the other by Carl and AL.  This never changed and at each venue the signs were up on the rooms ("Dressing Room: Mike and Bruce; Dressing Room Carl and Alan).  This only stopped in 97 with Carl's illness when he got his own dressing room and the other was then shared by Mike, Bruce AND Al.  That may mean absolutely nothing.

HOWEVER, every time I hear about Carl and Alan being close and closely sided in the 90"s, I do wonder what would have been had they been able to forge that bond in say, the 1970's...? 

The way people interact with each other changes over multiple decades. Hell, I don't even interact with the people in my band the same as I did two years ago! There's a clip on youtube from the early 70s where the Boys are being interviewed on French TV. The interviewer asks them if they live together and they all say no, but then Al reminds Mike that he lived at Al's house for awhile (probably inbetween wives or something) and then Mike put his hand on Al's leg and said, "Oh yes, we still live together," jokingly implying that they were lovers. It's sad knowing they had such a nice friendship and saw eye-to-eye on so many things for so many years, and gave us such favorable songs as the California Saga and Don't Go Near the Water, only to have their relationship deteriorate in the 80s and 90s.

That is interesting. But from what I've read, Dennis was fairly inconsistant as well. If not more so. He could be sensitive and sweet, or start a fight with somebody. It probably had something to do with how sobre he was.

Can't help wondering if the reason they were thinking of replacing Bruce with Billy was that Bruce had had enough.  Of all of them, at that time, he was the one likely to be able to go it alone and I'm sure I've read that Tears and Bluebirds were, initially, recordings he was working on by himself.

Well that may be true but his basic personality stayed the same at least when sober, and even when drunk you knew what you were going to get. Brian probably changed the most I think the Brian of 1964, 1976, 1988, and 2007 are four completely different people. I say that in how he reacts to things or communicates. Of courser this is down to drugs and drink too.

Maybe this was no joke and is the reason that Al had to leave the band.... :lol

In terms of Bruce and his problems with the band in the early 70s- Mike discussed his departure at some length in a two part interview with Keith Altham in two June 1972 NMEs

Mike said in the June 10 issue that  "We had a meeting and we discussed the personal problems within the group, and the relationships between the various members within the group. Some of us had no relationship at all, and Bruce said, 'If that's the way you feel about it maybe I should just leave – I don't want to leave but maybe it's for the best! It was very amicable.  Bruce is definitely on a solo trip, he is a good solo performer, he writes fantastic songs by himself, and the time he spent writing alone isolated him from the group.  He had his own interests, his own relationships with the Press, and he played a game that was oblique to the Beach Boys. But now he is free to do as he pleases. The Beach Boys never threw Bruce out, he was just on a tangent that was outside the Beach Boys for so many years. His whole idea of the future is to be a song-writer and have a TV show, and it's all based on individual musical taste and individual aspirations which are fine, but now within the framework of a group. That was what was good about Bruce leaving the group.
Bruce was quoted that he was dismissed?
Bruce said he knew the problems as well as we did, and he wanted us to help him to write this song, but each individual in the group had something that affected them about the way Bruce had been for seven years, and he said 'if that's the way you feel about it I'll just split'.
Was it just a question of his life style being different from yours?
No, not at all, because his lifestyle is changing like everyone elses, the difference is that he is creative on his own not as part of a group. I wouldn't dream of doing a solo album or anything like that, but that's just me. We've all had our ups and downs within the group and got frustrated and pissed off because of the tremendous amount of work that's gone into the last year or so. But when Bruce was confronted with it he took it subjectively and he over-reacted, and said he would split.  He may have taken it as a dismissal but that's just too bad because we had tangible gripes about him. I don't think the subject is closed, we're still friends. Creatively I don't know what's going to happen, it depends on him a lot."

Also re Bruce's departure, it has been well documented that he had problems with Jack Rieley (sp?) who was essentially the group's "svengali" at that time. Bruce apparently saw through the guy before the others did.

:lol

If only...

In regards to the post before about the Brian/Al reunion of 06/07.  I don't remember ever hearing definitely why it broke off suddenly. Did I miss it? That was the best damn BB related concert I went to since the 93 tour! Although, it would appear they are still in contact as Brian played on Al's album and according to Melinda, Al was the only one to congratulate Brian on his Kennedy honor.

As for Al/Carl, I remember Jon Stebbins ( I think or AGD) posting about how Al felt some guilt just before and after Dennis's death about not siding with the Wilsons on some things and that explained some of the closeness of Al/Carl in the 80's and 90's. I always wondered if this guilt caused Al to pushto get Carl back in the band circa 82 more.  I think it might also explain some of the bitterness/anger Al feels toward Mike even today. He is more mad at himself for siding with Mike alot for that period. Even Mike has mentioned that he feels Al has hostility over old things.

I wonder how much push there was to get Brian back in the group. I have heard different things about this. Eugene Landy was not allowing it to happen. Which would make sense through 91 or 92, but after Landy was fired, there must have been another reason.

In the 1990s, what exactly kept Brian out of the BBs? I would imagine that Carl and Al would have wanted Brian's inculsion more the Mike and Bruce. I wonder if this may have added to Mike and Al's falling out.

You know, I would say that around '94, Brian WAS back in the group more than any period of time  since the mid-70's.  For instance, he was actively involved with Mike writing material; he was active with the entire group at recording sessions (Baywatch Nights, the Paley/Was sessions in 95; Stars and Stripes).  He appeared in videos with the band (Summer of Love video from BW; Stars and Stripes).  He just wasn't performing with them in concert on a regular basis (as had been the case since 1965).  That being said, he would make appearances (FanFair; the 95 stint in Las Vegas; appearing at LA area shows with the group, but staying backstage and not performing).  I think it was not until the Was sessions blew up that he "left" again. Thoughts?

Does anyone know if the passing of Al's mother in early fall 2007 was a factor?

As for the alignments from the 80s on, I think there was an element of natural compatibility in philosophical outlook at play with the various personalities.

Thoughts? Yeah. Brian married Melinda, who had her own thoughts on Brian's "career", which didn't include the Beach Boys.

Hey, Mike's idea of heaven is being in the Beach Boys in 1965, when everything made sense. That included Brian as a songwriting partner and best friend.

SJS: I doubt that's the case.
DB: I think you're correct. (Me agreeing with you? Hell must be freezing!)
EDIT: SJS: I'd be more willing to bet that there are other people in Brian's camp that had their own idea of whether Brian should be a BB and they in turn advised and influenced  whoever makes these decisions.

"He appeared in videos with the band (Summer of Love video from BW") 
Oh god, I tried to block that out from my memory. That was painful to watch and listen to!

SJS -- Brian and Melinda were together by 1994, if not slightly before. They married in 1995. Brian's renewed activity with the Beach Boys was in 94 - 96 -- precisely when he was dating, marrying, and living with Melinda. It seems just as likely that she pushed him toward being involved with the group -- and I recall interviews in which she talked up Brian's relationship with Mike.

What did happen however, was that Brian decided to work on a solo record with Joe Thomas (flowing straight out of the Stars and Stripes sessions) and then Carl died. That was truly the breaking point.

I was just throwing that out. I have no idea if there is any truth at all. I imagine that Carl's death is the main reason Brian doesn't want to be a BB anymore. I am willing to bet that if Carl was alive and well, Brian would still be involved with them. But then again, I have no idea.

Read some of Brian's Mojo interviess or the Uncut expose. Melinda was not a Beach Boys backer and him asking her if he will work with them again in the Stebbins doc says it all. Of course I think if Carl was here they never would have broken completely up.

I think it's a mistake to blame Melinda for Brian's decisions. As with virtually all of his significant relationships -- see also: Landy; Murry; Mike Love; Marilyn, albeit to a lesser extent -- Brian allows the other to serve in an exoskeleton/bad cop type of role. If Brian did or does want to work with the Boys, he'd do it. But he's been ambivalent, at best, about it since, oh, 1966 or so. And I bet their chilly reaction to his mid-90s songs and his offer to write/produce an album as per the old days pretty much sealed the deal. Carl's death obviously made it even more obvious....but still.

And don't be fooled by the "What am I supposed to be doing?" type of public statements. Brian, for all his demons, remains a very strong and willful character who either doesn't do what he doesn't want to do, or enjoys being bossed around so much that doing what he doesn't want to do is exactly what feels right to him. "Sometimes I have a weird way of showing my love," he sang once. And guess what: He meant it.

Given what PAC just posted (and I feel like this conversation has been played out several times), isn't it possible that the scenario might play out like this:
Mike, at the rooftop event: Brian, wouldn't you like to work together again?
Brian, thinking "no" but not wanting to say it, quickly finds a scapegoat: Yes, I would, but Melinda says I shouldn't.

Mike, in an interview: Brian wants to work with the BBs again, but forces around him are keeping him from it.

It's not as if Brian is tethered to Melinda. He goes places without her, and seemingly without other "guardians" too. He has the freedom to do what he wants.
 

The story I heard was that Brian gave Mike a song to which he should write the words but Mike wanted to start from scratch.

If I were Mike, I would've jumped on that and written the lyrics immediately.

Exactly!

Given a peace offering and throws it back. Nice.

I never said Melinda's influence was immediate. It easily could've taken a few years for Brian and Melinda's relationship to reach that point of trust, where Melinda would be able to discuss music and career with Brian - and influence him. And I don't mean that in a bad way. People assume because you disagree with Melinda, you're attacking her. I just disagree with some of her, shall we say, opinions.

And I don't limit it to Melinda. In my opinion, I don't think Brian was EVER strong enough to record a solo album, promote it, go on tour without the Beach Boys, and, in essence, have a solo career - WITHOUT someone influencing him, encouraging him, pushing him, and so forth. That's one reason (not the only reason, but one reason) why Brian didn't release SMiLE as a solo project. That person wasn't there.

But it was in the 1980's, in the person of Dr. Landy. No Landy = no BW88 solo album. Landy's gone and guess what? We have Brian back with the guys for the ill-fated Don Was sessions and Stars & Stripes. And, eventually, Melinda "assists" in Brian's music career. IMO, No Melinda = No Joe Thomas-produced Imagination. That next album would've been a Beach Boys' album. And the rest is history...

Peter, what is your take on Melinda? Is the audience too hard on her and her decisions?

Peter obviouslly you know them and I respect your take on their relationship, but Melinda does have her own opinions and some I disagree with. I cannot help but think that if she wanted Brian to work with the group he would have more seriously thought about it. Yet you are right I think he never made a major decision without being bossed around to some extent.  What motivates him and makes him tick is very interesting.

And THAT is the only issue that I am talking about. I am not questioning their (Brian and Melinda's) choice of record company, choice of producer, choice of musician friends (Darian, Jeff, et al), choice to hang out (or not) with Brian's family, choice to have a new family, choice of how many dogs to adopt. Just the choice to have a solo career. That's all.

If Melinda felt it was a good idea to re-group with Mike, Al, Bruce, and David, hang out at Al's barn, share some laughs, hopefully heal some old wounds, record a new Beach Boys' album, possible perform a concert - and "sold" the idea to Brian (in a good way), that he would say "nah"?

 

Well, I don't think that's quite right. Stars & Stripes included Joe Thomas, too (and had the same horseshit sound in parts as Imagination).

No, Luther, I'm not questioning whether or not Joe Thomas would've been the producer of the next album - Beach Boys' album or not - just that it probably would've been a Beach Boys' album, and not the solo Imagination. Brian barely had enough material to fill a new album by himself, thus the covers (Keep An Eye On Summer, Let Him Run Wild, Sherry She Needs Me re-working, and the quasi-My Solution). But, as I re-read my post, I can see where my point could be misconstrued.

But, since you mentioned Joe Thomas, wasn't it Melinda who suggested Joe Thomas as producer of Imagination after she became close friends with Joe's wife, eventually moving to Chicago and becoming neighbors?

I see. I thought you were saying that she introduced Thomas to the equation, which, if she did, she did before S&S. I have heard that she was in favor of him for Imagination (as opposed to the Sean O'Hagan project), but I don't really know.

For my purposes, a Thomas-produced BBs album would've been just as bad as a Thomas-produced BW album anyway, so it makes little difference. If J. Thomas was involved, I am not interested. But had the Was-produced band project gone ahead, that would be different.

I'm not sure if brian's solo career has been an uninterrupted pattern of good decisions, either. Some are more explicable than others, to be sure. But for my money Brian, and fans of BW music, are way better off when he's miles away from the surviving Beach Boys. Too much foul water under the bridge. Too little respect for his abilities. Think of it: If he had jumped back into the camp for good in the mid-90s would "Smile" be finished? Would his reputation/legacy be restored to where he is now? I haven't had a chance to really absorb "Lucky Old Sun" just yet, but it's obviously quite ambitious. And "Midnight's Another Day" takes my breath away. But do you think Mike and Bruce would ever sing on that song? I don't.

I wish the original Beach Boys were all alive and working, too. I wish they had continued on the path they tread through the late '60s and early '70s, and put more stock in their creativity than in their commerciality. But it didn't work out that way, did it? And now here we are, and on this earth there's no going back.

Amen.

I agree. I don't know who made the decision to keep away from the Beach Boys, but whether it was Brian, Melinda, or whoever, I think it was a wise decision. I hope that one day Brian and Mike just get together and talk, as cousins should. But musically?  Brian is doing good stuff again, but what's on Mike's resume since he stopped working with Brian? As a team, they haven't done anything decent since . . .when? The early 80s, maybe? And as far as getting along and enjoying each other's company in a studio? When was the last time that happened?
It just sounds unpleasant all around.

These guys don't need to be making music in order to reconcile.  In fact I think making music would probably ensure that reconcilation wouldn't happen.

We all know that without Mr. Positivity that Brian is too meloncholy.  :lol


IMO, without Dennis and Carl, there are no Beach Boys. No disrespect to any of the surviving members, thats just how I perceive the situation.

It would also provide an opportunity for the guys to heal those old wounds.


I think Mike, Al, Bruce, and David (?) would more than welcome Brian's musical "abilities". I think they have a great appreciation for his talents.


I do. This is precisely the quality and depth of song that fans - including Mike, Al, and Bruce - have been waiting decades for, including Carl Wilson before he passed. Do you think they were happy with "Shortenin' Bread"? If Brian would've ever submitted a song like this between 1976 - 1997, they'd sung on it.


Who's talking about going back? Dennis and Carl are gone. There is no going back. It can never be the same. What's wrong with trying a new mix? New chemistry? New ideas? New relationships?

Quite frankly, I don't have the energy right now to debate the merits (or lack of) of BWPS. That would take a new thread and it's been discussed ad nauseum. And probably will be again. And by me. Anyway, you are right. If Brian stayed in The Beach Boys, there would not have been BWPS. IMO, IMO, IMO, it would've been a shame to not have the live presentations of SMiLE; I'll admit that. But I will also say that it would've been better to not have the songs re-recorded into BWPS. Nuff said on that. Thanks for your post...

Not trying to play dumb, but what do you mean by that??

Hey, I understand if people have the opinion that Mike's voice is shot, that his touring group is a shade of former glories, that he has bad taste for stage clothes....

But Mike DID sing on "Still a Mistery" 12 years ago. Not really a formula song, right? Is "Midnight's Another Day" really that different?

I disagree quite a bit with the BWPS part, too, but am skipping it for now. But as for all the above, I read that as a fan who wants a reconciliation through another album, a fan's dream. I don't see anything there that we have any reason to believe is based in fact. You want them working together to work to reconcile them; you think the survivors would want to work with him; and you think they'd have willingly participated in Midnight's Another Day.

But really .. Mike Love jumping on board with a Wilson/Bennett song? (Hell, a Wilson/Bennett album!) EVERYONE involved has had ample opportunities to get together to make music over the past, oh, 23 years since their last real, semi-legitimate studio album. If anyone were that interested, it would have happened ... three or four times already.

You're right, Luther. I don't deny it. It IS my opinion. My quote. That is what I want. I AM speaking as a fan. I'm a sentimental sap. I can't help it. But...

I also think the guys want it. I mean that. I watched the 1989 TV show with the guys sitting around that campfire, singing songs, laughing and joking around. I thoroughly enjoyed the Nashville Sounds documentary; the group appeared to be sincerely getting along, having fun recording together, and the TV appearances around the same time. It looked like Bruce enjoyed his participation with Brian in that 1997 Imagination mini-concert. I thought the atmosphere was positive a year or so ago when the group had that ceremony on the Capitol Records' rooftop. And, while I didn't see the shows live, I read great reports on the Brian/Al concerts last year, how they genuinely appeared to be enjoying each other on stage.

This is just my opinion, but I think, deep down inside, whether they will admit it or not - Mike, Al, Bruce, David, AND Brian - would like to do something together again. It's just a gut feeling I have. But, Luther, maybe you're right. Maybe my views are too clouded by my fandom.   

I'm gonna chime in here and just say I personally have no desire for a re-union. I mean Mike+Bruce appear to be relatively happy doing their thing which is fine. But Brian has always been the one that MOST people are interested in musically and as a person. I just think it's great to see Brian receiving so much recognition as an individual, something which I don't think would've happened to the same extent if he was still totally involved as a Beach Boy for all those years. Whether or not these honors mean anything to anyone here is another issue but if you look at it, atleast Brian is being recognised by the public for his achievements. I mean he has been highly praised for his live performances (in particular Pet Sounds & SMiLE). There were two tribute concerts to him. He brought out BWPS which was highly acclaimed (regardless of if you like it or not - and atleast it's out there), he won his first ever Grammy award from that. He also has brought out plenty of other material (including albums and songs on various compilations/soundtracks etc..) which I doubt he would've done to the same extent if he was still a Beach Boy (how much material have they brought out from 1990 onwards? Very little). Even if some of that material is average, still SOME Brian material is better than NO Brian material. Brian just seems to me to be the only one who is still fairly creative. He was inducted into the UK songwriters hall of fame, and of course the recent Kennedy Centre honors too. There is heaps of other honours that he has received that I can't think of as well. Maby some of these things MIGHT have happened if he was still a Beach Boy, but it seems that Brian is going through a lot of positive things in his life in the moment (atleast in terms of what I was just saying) so I don't see the need for a reunion. Sometimes you have to move on, friends don't always stick together, they move on. I mean can you imagine if Brian+Mike+Bruce+Al+Dave got together for a reunion album but then even more tension broke out? What would be the purpose of that? I'm not saying it WOULD happen, but to be honest, it seems to me (and this is all from a fans point of view of course - I don't actually know) that Mike+Brian haven't been on the best of terms since 64/65. I mean that to me seemed when they were really buddies but after that it wasn't the same. I just say if Brian is happy and Mike+Bruce are happy and Al is happy and Dave is happy, then I just say they should just keep doing whatever they are doing. Of course if they are all dieing to have a reunion, then I think they should for sure, if that's what they want. But I just doubt anyone REALLY wants a reunion

I know Sheriff that you are saying those things from a fans point of view and I understand that view. I mean you have been around a lot longer than me, so you remember the days of The Beach Boys as a creative force, but I don't and I just see Brian doing really well which I'm happy about considering all the crap he went through.

Hey, are you saying I'm old?

Just kidding. Good post! :police:

This 'reunion' subject is also getting discussed on the BBBrit site.
Bruce has said he would enjoy a one-off PBS charity type gig but no to a tour. He feels it would not earn enough to make it viable and I would agree with that.

My thoughts on the subject.

I think the band ended years ago so no new album for me thanks. If they could not make a great album 30 years ago, what chance would they have now. One Beach Boy (Mike) looking for a label for his work is bad enough. To have a album by THE BEACH BOYS begging for any taker, or website sales only, would be degrading.

You want a reunion? Have a lock-in at Al's Big Sur studio with a camera crew for a warts-and-all no holds barred, clear the air show-down. In between plenty of memories of the good times and bad. Lots of instruments close at hand for whatever happens. At 5pm its down to the beach around the campfire with guitars, families, beer and hotdogs. Film it all.
July 4th concert at the Hollywood Bowl. One night only. Lots of hits with some Big Sur highlights/ lowlights on the big screen behind in between songs. A few guest singers to ease onstage tension.

All realeased as DVD for Christmas market. One disc of concert. The other Big Sur get-together. Profits to same charity as concert.

Aint gonna happen. Don't care either way.

I think there is a long history to suggest that they don't always appreciate the good music of Brian Wilson. In 66 the group was complaining about Pet Sounds and Smile. In 71, he had to fight to put Til I Die on Surfs Up. In the late 70s he couldn't get songs like Still I Dream of It or Its Over Now on an album. And they were not happy about the Smile album being released.

When I say 'they', it is mostly Mike.

I think that Brian's will can be effected by those around him. If he is surrounded by artistically minded people, then he wants to be artistic. If he is surrounded by nestolgia, then he wants to be nestolgic.

In other words, I don't think he would've ever done Smile on his own. The band around him encouraged him to get it done. On the Beautiful Dreamer dvd, they talked about Brian suddenly playing Heroes and Villains on the piano. Everyone around him was excited! If his surroundings were not so positive about it, then I don't think Brian would've had the strength to finish it.

This is all theory based on what I've seen, heard and read. Not fact.

Smile is pretty nostalgic, wouldn't you say?

no.

Well Mike rarely (except for perhaps the Big Band songs) complained about the music, he just wanted (rightly or wrongly) to be the lyric writer. The Til I Die thing was only mentioned in Brian's so called book and hinted at vaguely in Leaf's so I don't really think much of that. Afterall Mike and Bruce have done it live. Mike said he wished he and the other Beach Boys were on Smile mainly because of the hard work he and the others did do in 1966-67. Whatever else you can say about the 66-67 era the Beach Boys including Mike worked hard on those vocal sessions doing a great job.

Why haven't Brian and Mike been able to work together regularly since 1980 is largely down to the political situation around them. To me when they are together I still see a strong hint of their former friendship. I think all of the problems Brian had within the group since 1983 were created mainly by those outside the group. Brian wasn't always a victim of some big bad Mike Love agenda, and I am sure his drug use and the results stemming from it hurt the other Beach Boys as much as he was hurt by them. A vicious circle perhaps. I am not naive, Brian's interest in the group has waxed and waned . Sometimes he seemed to want to be a full time member, other times he didn't want to do anything but it seems to have been his choice before Landy stepped in. I think that since 1975 he hasn't run his own show and maybe can't. Ironically in 1976 Landy pushed him into being a group member. After Gene was fired the first time it seems that he lost some interest (most apparent on stage) but at the same time he seemed to be clinging to the group at the time not knowing what else to do. In 1983 he seemed revitalised but after Dennis died (and even more so after the group told Gene that Melcher instead of the Landy/Brian team would be running the recordings) he gradually did less and less. After Landy we have a brief resurgence and then Carl died. You really cannot say the the end of the Was deal ended Brian's interest because S&S was after that as were the 1996 concerts and the remake of Fun, Fun, Fun. After Carl died perhaps Brian genuinely felt that the group was done and while I don't blame him, it just seems to be that things would be better if Brian wasn't so suggestable.

Now I don't blame Brian's team completely, Al did get a raw deal at the hands of BRI, and I have also said many times that outside of his legitimate claim for writing credits Mike should stay out of court. But notice that through the whole thing it seems that no longer face to face talk things out without lawyer's. That says a lot and nobodies hands (except Dave's) are completely clean. The point is people who knew them back in the sixties and early seventies think that if there were no lawyers, wives, or flunkies around, they might be able to talk things out.  I am not saying I think this means they should record or tour, but as a family I think they should try to mend fences.

Yeah even though I'm not Mike's biggest fan, he does seem to get the rough end of the stick at times. People always make up stories about him. I'm not sure if it was in Brian's autobiography or not, but I remember reading that Mike was the one who opposed to Til I Die, and that Brian had recorded a 4 minute version (eg: I'm assuming the "Desper mix" is what was being referred to) but Mike made sure that the song was cut down to a shorter length because he was against the song. And then of course Brian didn't even do that mix, and Desper himself has stated (correct me if I'm wrong - I don't want to lie about what he said) something about how he showed the band the mix but they preferred the version that ended up on Surf's Up.


Agreed. I think it would be nice if they could atleast be on talking terms and mend the relationship BUT as you say, I don't care if they record/tour or not.

I think it was Desper who told this version of what happened. Let me try: Brian wrote the "Till I Die" we all know and love. When he showed it to the group, Mike voiced his opinion that the lyrics were "a downer". Brian rewrote them to sound more positive, but at the end went back to the original version. And Mike is very prominent at the tag. Desper mix was just something he did on his own.

I think sometimes we make a big deal of stuff that just happens when musicians are part of a group.

When I think of Brian and Mike, I think of a divorced couple that was married for a long, long time. When they get together there's a glimmer of the old magic, and people think, "Wow, maybe they belong together again. Maybe all those issues can be put behind them." But if they spend enough time together, the tensions start creeping up again, and the magic really isn't there anymore.

Amy that may well be the case, but I don't think they have had the chance to spend any real time together in over ten years.

There are good reasons why they should not hang out.

Here's one:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=gt0LBlH3dAc

(aka "the frog chorus" with tits)

part of me is curious to see if they've all learned some lessons over the years and could marshal resources into making really worthy beach boys music, but at the end of the day, with no carl and no dennis, it isn't the beach boys. there are so many potholes in that road, and so few possible rewards at the end of it. brian is my main concern, and all appears to be well, or as well as it can be, with him. creatively, there are pros and cons with all of brian's collaborators, but i'm holding out great hope for TLOS, based on the live presentation. it seems to me that it could be his best true solo album, post BB.

i may be called a hater for this, but i'm actually more of a bruce johnston detractor than a mike love detractor... mike, regardless of some of his shady opinions and actions, has contributed greatly to the beach boys story, with and without brian... the quality of some of those contributions, well, that's up to personal tastes. i feel like bruce johnston is simply a politician who has sided up with the right people at the right times to remain in the beach boys team photo, and has nothing to offer the band creatively. i've always lifted the proverbial leg on his songs, which stick out like syrupy, sugary sore thumbs amongst the other band members' tracks, in my opinion. he doesn't belong anywhere near any imagined beach boys reunion, and when you're plugging in bruce, but don't have the balance of carl or dennis, that's a wrong turn.

but you know he would be one of the prime movers, and that's an indication it should probably be left alone... mike and bruce can do their thing. no one is depriving them of the right to tour as "the beach boys". i do wish al and david could be part of something permanent or a larger collective, but they aren't shy of work or love from the BB community. as for brian, he is, as some others have pointed out, gaining some respect and recognition at this point in his life that i'm not so sure would have come his way if he were still tied in with mike and the baywatch band, whether that is right or wrong. a lot of people in the industry have a negative opinion of mike love, some well-earned, some not. for everything he and brian could offer each other, i have the feeling that it would eventually degenerate into past mike-brian stuff, which has been a sore point for the better part of the last 40 years, so why open that contentious wound again? i'm not sure any end would justify the means in terms of quality or trouble.

any actual product would likely receive bottom-drawer treatment... the record industry isn't exactly a boomtown these days... i can see "walmart exclusive" all over it (apologies to any eagles fans). all i'm saying is that a reunion would be flying in the face of good sense and history... they should leave it alone. if relationships could be repaired, that would be gratifying to fans, i guess, but what are the odds of people changing the essence of who they are? when a person behaves a certain way consistently for 60 years, is it reasonable to expect them to all of a sudden embrace the better angels of their character and step in for a group hug? ;)

Personally, if there were ever to be a BB reunion (highly unlikely), that Mike and Bruce should not be involved. I think it should be Brian, Al, and Dave, with the possibility of including Blondie Chaplin and Ricky Fataar (who IMO, along with manager Jack Reiley, should've never left the group). Maybe even getting Daryl Dragon, Billy Hinche, Bobby Figeroa, Carli Munoz, Dennis Dragon, Ed Carter, plus all of the other various sidemen from the early 70s as a backing band would be pretty cool. Why they didn't keep going in the direction they were when they did CATP and Holland is beyond me. Well, actually I know why: money and screaming throngs of oldies fans. But they should've kept going in the direction they went on Holland anyway, its no wonder both Dennis and Carl left the group. I think Pacific Ocean Blue is the true follow-up to Holland. Mostly everything after that (minus Bamboo, a couple songs from 15BO, Half the songs on Love You, Adult Child, a couple songs on Carl's solo albums, Brians's solo career, and Where I Belong from BB 85) was a big steaming pile of crap, in my opinion.

That'd make a great documentary! Martin Scorsese, are you out there?

Well, there are two smart Beach Boys. Carl and Al. They weren't in this video. Ok, Carl's picture appeared on a surf board.

Everything after KTSA--and arguably KTSA, too--the Beach Boys ever released was more offensive than Wipeout.

Does that include Wipeout?

Everything else. Obviously Wipeout fits into that time frame. I assumed my point was clear.

So what you're saying is that Wipeout is more offensive than Wipeout?

ALL EDITED OUT due to me reading sarcasm where there was none.

Sorry? I actually didn't understand the "everything else" part as meaning "not Wipeout". Otherwise I would've let it go then.

Really? OK. My mistake, and I apologize.

Re Wipeout, btw, I honestly think it beats the hell out of anything else the BBs were doing at the time. Silly, sure, but fun. And not really bad, especially as a guest contribution to a (then relatively new to most of America) rap song.

I think Brian and Mike do have a relationship they should work on. But not necessarily music. Brian has always worked with multiple people. Mike has always needed Brian to do his best. Thus, Mike has always been jealous of others who want to work with him.

But as cousins, and friends, and bandmates, I think BW and ML have a lot in common. The magic, the spark, is still there. But it's the magic and spark of family -- not top-10 recording artists. They should work on that and let the music take care of itself.

'The Last Waltz' meets 'Raging Bull'  ;D

Hey, it got them on the charts.  And watching Al Jardine as the DJ in the video was funny as hell.  I liked the song.

i agree... well said and shorter than my post...haha. a repaired relationship would mean more than what would almost surely be a struggle of a collaboration.

Sounds like an excellent plan to me.

I'm reading opinions that Mike and Brian could repair and heal their relationship without necessarily reuniting as The Beach Boys or in a musical sense. And I understand that. It's certainly possible. It might even be the most feasible way. But...Yes, there's always a but...

I don't mean this a slight to any of Mike or Brian's values - family, religion, charity, mental/physical health, career aspirations, whatever. But, let's be honest, for the most part, Brian's life has been his music, and Mike's life has been The Beach Boys. And, most of Mike and Brian's relationship has been based on their musical partnership if you will. I mean, they haven't really "hung out" together extensively for about 43 years. So....

Yes, I'm speaking as a fan of Mike and Brian, and The Beach Boys, but don't you think any meaningful healing or reconciliation would have to come through the musical end? That, before they go off to the great sandbox in the sky, they could find some "musical partnership" peace?

They could get together and sing a few Everly Brothers songs or whatever-- it doesn't mean they have to do a concert or make an album. It seems to me that once business and the pressure of creating something "commercial" gets into the equation, things get pretty dicey.