The Smiley Smile Message Board

I'm sure it's a question that's endlessly asked over and over and over again, but i'm fairly new to the site so forgive me - but does anyone know if their are any plans for the original Smile recordings to get a release? I wasn't very happy with the 2004 remake, and yes I know it's all there on bootleg if anyone wants it, but it'd be nice to see it get an official release, no? Are their any serious, genuine plans to release the material, or is it all still nothing but rumours and hearsay? Oh, and check out 'Smile-era Sounds and Footage' on U Tube - what a great mix!

Yeah sure! There will be a Smile box set, right after the release of the Beatles remasters and Neil Young's Anthology box sets.


Don't hold your breath, we all might be gone before it happens.
But one day it will happen.

At least Neil Young's Archeology set has started to drip out!, I think there are 2 CD/DVD combos right now.

There was talk of a Smile box in 1989... and 1996... and 2003.

2010, anyone ?  ::)

I thought the SMiLE box set idea was scrapped because of all the legal issues that popped up for the Good Vibrations box set?

Which legal issues were those? Relating to Mr Love by any chance? Just a guess, but was he by any chance objecting every time an even vaguely experimental/less-than-universally-well-known track was considered for inclusion? Or were their other problems?

I love the assumption that every time an archive release is blocked it's Mike's fault. Didn't he agree to the Smile stuff on the 1993 box ?

To date, every Smile box has been stymied because Brian has said "No". Probably because Mike told him to, of course.

Thank you for that. I think with BWPS out, there's no chance in hell that Brian (or his "people", which is more likely these days) will say yes to a SMiLE box set.

I really believe that, after Brian is retired from making records and touring, Melinda and David Leaf will look into the possibilty of a SMiLE boxed set - if they haven't already. And I believe that, if a nice profit can be made - and it's not too painful getting it done - it will come out. There are enough qualified people around Brian that he (Brian) wouldn't have to lift a finger. It would just be a matter of phone calls - attorneys, engineers, publicity, art, and Darian (the key to the project). And then, Brian would be called in to say "Sounds good" a few times. I am not being facetious or cynical....

I'd like to think that might happen.  But Brian has been really, really adamant about it.  It's not just something he's been a go-along guy about, while he has about other things that used to be difficult for  him, like touring.  Landy tried to make a Smile release happen, and if anyone could have persuaded Brian, it should have been him.  Plus, it's been tried for years since Brian has been with Melinda, both before and after they married.  Don Was tried it in '94.  Brian couldn't even stand hearing too much of the original tapes when BWPS was put together.  Maybe part of the agreement with his wife and others was that he would finish it himself via BWPS, but doing so would preclude even trying to put out the originals.  I believe Brian frames it as a mental health issue, and for him, it might be.  I think he remains in control of this issue, or it would have been put out long ago. Mike would at most wrangle over things like liner notes, as he did on the "Pet Sounds" boxed set.  Mike likes being associated with things that have had critical acclaim, even if he had some resistance at the time they were made.  Maybe with the passage of more time, Brian will change his mind, but then it might become a matter of principal for him.  It's not like the sales of Smile sessions will make that much money, and he really doesn't need the money.  He's always going to make the bulk of his cash with things like "Warmth of the Sun" and other greatest hits compilations, not things to appeal to the artsier crow.

So just to clear things up, is that a yes to Mike objecting to a Smile release? Just joking, folks... One only has to watch the 'Endless Harmony' DVD to see just how full of enthusiasm he is on the subject. Hopefully they'll all be dead soon, then the record company can just whack it out regardless ala Stanley Kubrick's Clockwork Orange. That was a joke too incidentally.. But jeez, just release the stuff already! Even with 'Pet Sounds' growing in reputation as it is year by year, the Beach Boys remain a very under-rated band in the grand scheme of things. Anything to correct that is much needed, and offical Smile releases would likely do just that...

Oh yeh, this in the latest MOJO music magazine:

Alice Cooper:
That was the night Brian Wilsom said 'I wanna play you the greatest song ever'.. and it was Mama's Little Bay Love Shortenin' Bread.

Iggy Pop:
Brian had a sandbox in the living room. I did not get in the sandbox. I was terrified.

Alice Cooper:
Brian told us, 'Be quiet - my kids are asleep'. But he couldn't get in the door, so he took a brick and smashed a window. Then he brings the kid downstairs, he's holding the baby by the leg going, 'This is my baby!' I'm like, Wow he's gone man!!

Is that the one I've heard so much about that, over and over, flies over the cornfield?

 ;)

Well yeah, blabla.
And to my knowledge, the sandbox lasted 'til early 67.

Off-topic, I know, but did you mean Kubrick's "Eyes Wide Shut"? "A Clockwork Orange" was released as the director intended while he was still alive in 1971. Or, are you referring to the supposedly forthcoming "Special Edition" version of "Orange" that reportedly includes extras that Kubrick probably wouldn't have wanted included, but no one is really sure of?

Back on-topic: I tend to think that BWPS really did take the shine off the idea of releasing a box set of the original sessions (in a good way). I treasure those original sessions as well and would love to have as much as exists released in high fidelity, but with so many tracks appearing on the GV Box Set along with material that has dribbled out on other releases, plus finished versions of the songs appearing on BWPS, a "SMiLE" Box Set would probably appear anticlimatic. Certainly the larger market would expect there to be a finished, or nearly finished, Beach Boys version of the album included which there can never be. The highlights would be the "Fire" track, the backing track to "Child Is Father Of The Man" and, maybe, "He Gives Speeches"! Everything else would be akin to the session excerpts found on the "Pet Sounds Sessions". Even some of the juicier session material appears to be missing. Again, I would love to have everything collected in one place, but a "SMiLE" box would have made a much greater impact if released prior to 1993.

In the UK, Stanley withdrew 'Clockwork..' from distrbution and made it clear he didn't want it released here (it was never confirmed why, though rumour has it he and his family recieved threats of violence, and a number of copycat crimes took place at the time of its release). Anyway, he was barely cold in his grave before they promptly re-released it, which is good in that it's an amazing film that everyone should be able to see, but not very respectful to Mr Kubrick...
Oh, and as for the 'well, blababa'? What's that supposed to mean? Are you implying Iggy and Cooper just made it all up? Or are you one of those incredibly dull BB fans who likes to cast Brian as some kind of halo-wearing saint, rather than the incredibly more interesting f***ed-up, crazy genius that he so clearly was? Stories such as the MOJO one are tragic, but v interesting and not a little funny as well... I love hearing them. It's the whole screwed up mess behind the scenes that makes the BBs such an interesting band (that and the awesome music). I don't think it's disrespectful to find such tales of interest etc

I don't mean to speak for Jasper, but I think he's simply calling Pop's memory into question since he would not have had the opportunity to visit Brian's home prior to the sandbox being removed (sandbox dismantled in '67; Iggy Pop in L.A. around '70/'71).

I was aware of Kubrick pulling "Clockwork" from release in the U.K., but I don't know how strongly he felt about keeping the film unreleased there almost 20 years later. He certainly had no problem allowing the DVD to come out and he must have realized the film would find its way into British hands. The U.S. censorship of "Eyes Wide Shut" is a more questionable decision made after Kubrick's death as was the rush release of the initial DVD set featuring poor video-based transfers that Kubrick would not have approved (his estate successfully got the set withdrawn and replaced with an improved one).

That's right! Looks like Iggy doesn't remember the meeting with Brian and probably not much of the 70's anyway, so he just told something he read somewhere.

He was adament about it not being released in the UK. From someone who lives here, and is a huge fan of Kubrick, i can tell you he did not want the film released either in cinemas or on DVD - but once he's snuffed it they quickly released it on both! Hey, i'm aware Eyes Wide Shut caused a hoo-hah in the US, but not in the UK where it simply met with a rather muted reception and zero controversy.

Oh yeh, and getting back to the Pop/Cooper stuff, the interviewer's question was: Didn't you both visit Brian during the 'Pet Sounds' sessions? I'm assuming Mojo, a very respectable, knowledgable music magazine, did their research, so i'll assume Pop did at some point visit the US prior to the '70s and thus witnessed the sandbox. However, the Shortenin' Bread incident was definately during the '70s, so it's safe to assume Pop's combined the two Brian encounters into one big disturbing whole. Either way, it was an enlightening anecdote!

Evidently he didn't do his research, as Pop (then James Osterberg) would have been taking drum lessons from Sam Lay (of Butterfield/Muddy Waters fame) in 1966, while Cooper achieved his first regional hit ("Why Don't You Love Me", with an early incarnation of the Alice Cooper band known as The Spiders) in the same epoch. I've always presumed that this incident occurred sometime in 1973 (after Holland) or 1974 -- Cooper was at the height of his commercial success, the latter day Stooges had convened in LA to work on Raw Power (if memory serves... either way, Iggy was a regular on the Left Coast until about '76 or so), and we all know this is when Brian's illnesses began to consume him.

As for the sandbox recollection, Mr. Pop has had over thirty years to embellish the story, after all...

Well bugger me

I thought Kubrick destroyed all of the extra footage from ACO.  What are the extras you refer to?  Docs, interviews?

Well if they released the movie in the UK when he's said he didn't want 'em to do so, but they did it anyway just coz he'd died, then i guess released a few extras etc doesn't really make much difference does it? It's like crapping all over his dead lifeless body, then debating whether to piss on it too, coz, you know, it might be distasteful...

Well, all I know is that Kubrick signed off on the form to have Warner Brothers release DVD versions of everything from "Lolita" to "Eyes Wide Shut", but fully intended to oversee new hi-def transfers before this happened. When he died, Warners rushed the initial box set out with inferior transfers claiming they had Kubrick's permission. The new and improved transfers were then released a year later. This was for the U.S. market, so it's possible Kubrick would have refused to sign off on a U.K. DVD release of "Clockwork".

Kubrick's estate, being his wife, Jan Harlan and Leon Vitali I persume, still have some measure of control over what comes out I would think. As far as I know, the proposed "Clockwork Orange" Special Edition would contain the same version of the film, but with possible commentary by Malcolm McDowell, plus background featurettes on the making of the film. Oh yeah - and most importantly - this version would be anamorphic widescreen which I doubt Kubrick would have a problem with since he wanted the film matted to begin with.

O.K. back on topic, sort of: Asking Pop and Cooper if they attended the "Pet Sounds" sessions is absurd! Cooper was an absolute nobody at the time and living either in Phoenix or Detroit. Pop was the same and living in Ann Arbor, MI. If they managed a trip out to L.A. in '66, they would have had as much luck getting into the sessions as your average joe on the street.

By the way, the "Raw Power" sessions were held in London in '72/ '73. Neither gentleman would have had access to Brian's house without some amount of celebrity, so 1973/1974 would have been the more logical years.

Fair enough re Pop and Cooper, but for the millionth time, regardless of its avaliability in the US or anywhere else, Kubrick did not want 'Clockwork' released in the Uk - period. He lived in the UK, had done from the films release til his death, and he remained adament that it was not to be released here. When he died, all that went out the window... His not wanting it released was entirely down to reasons of his own personal safety, as mentioned in a previous post, ergo he had no problem with it being released in countries where he was not living. But in the uk, where he did live, he didn't want the film on the market. Whether this was irrasional, eccentric, ridiculous etc is besides the point - that is what he wanted, and i just think they were a bit TOO hasty to so blatantly go against his wishes the second he'd snuffed it..

I guess they figured since he was deceased, Kubrick wouldn't be as concerned about his personal safety!  ;)

thomasogg - it was not my intention to rile you up; the re-release of "Clockwork" in the U.K. was not news in the U.S. so I didn't understand your original reference to it. I'm a pretty big fan of the director, and was aware that he pulled the film for personal reasons back in '71 or '72, but did not realize he had not softened his stance nearly 30 years later. Welcome to the board and thank you for your posts!

That's life. If Brian passed away tomorrow, I bet my hat that 66/67 Smile would be released in some shape in 2008.

Then roll on Brian's death, eh? Eh?!!









That was a joke

albeit not the best (and most sensitive) one I've heard lately ...

Iggy and Alice Cooper refer to visiting Brian while he was remixing 'Pet Sounds'. Did Brian ever remix PS himself; for the Warner reissues of the early 70's perhaps?

 8)

I seriously doubt anyone was involved in remixing "Pet Sounds" (to mono again) in the early 70s, but it's likely Brian over saw a "remastering" of the album for release on Warners. That would fit the Cooper/Pop timeline better!

What I don't understand is if BW was OK with 30 minutes of Smile stuff on the GV box why would he be so against other tracks from the sessions? Is CITFOTM or Old Master Painter somehow more disturbing to him than Do You Like Worms?

The 30 minutes was dictated by the rest of the box - the compilers would have loved to have had more Smile stuff, but there was a lot of other material to include. "Fire" was a a concious omission. It took some days and a lot of persuasion to get Brian to agree to have any Smile tracks on the box at all.

I wish they hadn't included 'Barabara Ann', then we could have had some more Smile instead.

That's the one track I always skip when I play the box set.

Thank you for asking this question, Chris. That point is often forgotten in the re-telling of Brian's resuurection of SMiLE with BWPS. Brian actually consented to the release of the SMiLE material with the GV boxed set, more than ten years before BWPS, not to mention that most of the stuff had already been released on previous Beach Boys' albums! Was this mentioned in the BWPS DVD?

It was surprising at how little attention those 30 minutes of SMiLE material got, considering, with "Worms" and the "Heroes And Villains Sessions", it was some of the "druggier" SMiLE music...

Brian wasn't that happy with the inclusion of Smile material on those earlier BB albums, "Surf's Up" in particular.  But they went ahead and did it anyways.  Just like I'm sure he had his arm twisted a little to put things out on the boxed set.  His dislike of Smile (at least the original sessions) is something that's been very consistent over the years.  It doesn't change the way some of his other opinions do.  I'm sure the way they got him to do BWPS is by presenting it as cover versions, not the originals.  Even at that, he wound up in an emergency room with a panic attack when they started to do it.   He probably had little to do with picking out the stuff that did wind up on the boxed set, as AGD pointed out.  The selections probably had more to do with what the compilers liked, and space was limited.

Yes! Agreed! That's the point.

But he WOULD have a problem, 15-20 years later, with the same stuff being chosen for another boxed set, a SMiLE boxed set? Why?

I'm glad somebody brought up the topic of the SMILE material being released.

I bought a vinyl copy of an updated SOT version of SMILE  a couple of weeks ago.  Had some unreleased stuff along with some 93 box stuff and some other misc pieces.

Once again, listening to this new acquisition, I began to wish for a complete, official release of the entire SMILE archives.

Seems like I'm still discovering bits and pieces I haven't heard.

By the way, I bought this record at Amoeba records on Haight St. in San Francisco.   They had half a dozen copies.

Almost worth it just for the cover.

For the same reason he hears voices in his head. merda happens.

Someone told here what happened in 1993. Fom memory: Brian's then circle prepared this half-hour of Smile tracks and convinced Brian that it would be presented in the context of the box set, like "Ruby Baby" and "Still I Dream of It". It wasn't meant as a SMILE RELEASE. Then they made sure that he wouldn't give interviews aftewards claiming that the Smile tracks were included against his will. Fire was left out of the deal because they didn't want to blow it.

Brian's attitude towards the sessions as well as that period of time is different from his attitude toward the songs themselves. He has usually been relatively forthcoming about the songs when addressed out-of-context, but as soon as a discussion turns towards the "SMiLE" album itself, he clams up.

I'll retell one of my favorite Brian interview stories: In 1998, Brian did an on-line interview (streaming audio) with some oldies DJ-type who knew little of the Beach Boys catalog beyond the hits. One embarassing moment came when the interviewer asked Brian if he was proud of writing the hit "Kokomo" so late in his career! Brian responded that he was happy the song was successful by that he neither wrote it nor performed on the single. Later in the interview, Brian was asked if he felt he couldn't compete with the Beatles' more progressive material ("Sgt. Pepper", etc.) since the Beach Boys' strength was simpler songs. Brian was audibly irritated by the question and retorted that he had come up with songs like "Heroes & Villains" and "Surf's Up" which were his attempts to be "more arty".

I've often thought since hearing that interview that maybe the best way to get Brian to respond beyond the usual pat answers is to state outright falsehoods or put him into a position where he's forced to defend his career!

The criteria for inclusion on the 1993 were as follows:

1 - top 40 hits (hence "Barbara-fucking-Ann"
2 - classic non-hits and album tracks
3 - as much quality unreleased stuff as could be unearthed.
4 - tracks culled from lists requested by the compilers from fans worldwide through the fanzines of the time.

This only applied to the 4 main discs: all the tracks on the 5th CD crop up somewhere else on the set and are thus covered by the mechanical liscense. A clever dodge.

But don't forget: "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" aka "Fire" was already released in 1984 on An American Band, along with "Bicycle Rider". Didn't Brian have to agree back then? And he was even there for the premiere of the film. Too bad there wasn't a soundtrack album with all the studio outtakes and live songs.

amen to that......

Anyway, on a side note, unless a plethora of tapes containing instrumentals and vocal takes appear, there would never be a feasible "SMiLE 66-67" release....maybe a box set, but nothing of an album that could compare to BWPS. I know, I know....but before you attack me I just want to point out that BWPS, (among other things), has smooth structure and flow, highlighted by the second movement; it has a clean sound compared to the relatively muddy sounds from 66- 67; and there are great lyrics to the songs that were either never given lyrics or they were forgotten. I know a lot of you can't stand the vocals, but I would have to disagree....but that is just a matter of opinion. Personally, I love them, especially Taylors vocals...the album benefits from her voice.

I would love to see a SMiLE era box set, and would even pay a ridiculous amount of money for one, but I don't think a SMiLE 66-67 album is possible...it's a nice thought, though.

I think he was involved in picking out tracks for the boxed set...Hence the exclusion of "Let him Run Wild." As far as the SMiLE boxed set goes, releasing original Smile tracks post-2004 could undermine the importance of BWPS. That might be his thinking.

My understanding is that Brian did not pick out tracks for the 93 box set, but rather had veto power which he exercised over Let Him Run Wild.   The Smile tracks were picked by Leaf and Linnett with input from Priore and others (fan based request lists)

Y'know... sometime I wonder why I waste my time posting here. Three posts below this one, I listed the criteria for inclusion on the 1993 box in order of importance as told to me at the time by David Leaf, but no, someone 'thinks' Brian was involved because "LHRW" wasn't on there. Brian made two executive decisions regarding the box - he vetoed "LHRW" and, after considerable arm-twisting, agreed to let Smile tracks be included. That was  the extent of his involvement, again, as related to me by David and also by Mark & Andy in seperate conversations.  :-\

Jeez. 
I apologize, Andrew. I hadn't gotten through reading the whole thread (I'm at work, so my mind is in several places at once and I read here to take breaks). I jumped the gun. Relax, I was wrong. We all appreciate you.  :)   I guess I don't take my fandom seriously enough.   ::)

Awww, cry us a river!

 :violin

No argument here. :police:

Gee, Andrew's got his knickers in a twist somewhat hasn't he? What's that all about? Sorry oh enlightened one, we all bow before you with your superior knowledge of all things Beach Boys, for we are mere mortals who probably don't even know who played bass on 'Pitter Patter'. etc.

Sure you do - it's in the liners.  :)

:lol

Hooray - a Smile thread!

I wish a Smile boxset was put out, merely so I could stop obsessively re-arranging the track order of my Smile mix! I'm never satisfied with the order, but I guess that's half the appeal of Smile: It's interractive.

I often wonder what form a Smile box would take. Would the tracks be arranged chronologically? Surely that would be a bit sterile, but then how else organise it? Maybe using the BWPS structure as a  template would be the most rational solution, seeing as Brian was involved heavily in the sequencing of it (or at least, that's what I believe although I'm probably in the minority!) Grouping the sessions into the themes; Americana, Cycle of Life and Elements would work quite nicely I believe.

And a Smile boxset would absolutely, most definitely have to have the Frank Holmes artwork. I wish they'd used that for BWPS.

Same here. I'd like to see your latest incarnation; would you post the order? I've been obsessing lately about "Heroes And Villains"; I want to move it back in the playlist near the end because the lyrics are so "past tense", almost like a review song...

Hi Sheriff John Stone. I just wrote a long reply and my computer crashed as I was about to post!!! Aaargh. Anyway to paraphrase:

It's funny you mention H&V as for my next mix I want to break up H&V Cantina version and pepper the segments throughout the mix almost like little chapter headings. So the dum dum tape explosion might precede Mrs Oleary's Cow, the piano bike rider theme might lead into Wonderful - that sort of thing. Then I would end the mix with the 45 version of H&V. I like the idea of this as Brian consistently struggled with the song throughout the Smile era, so it's fitting that it be fragmented throughout the mix. Also it makes for a positive end to the mix to have the completed H&V wrapping it up as this was one of the few Smile songs that he successfully finished to his satisfaction. ( I can't take credit for this idea though as I read about someone else doing a similar thing with Heroes in their own mix)

I like your idea of ending with H&V - Sunny down snuff would've closed the album nicely. Plus it's an unusual place to put the song. I think anything that challenges conventional thinking around Smile is a good thing. I put Our Prayer at the end after Surf's Up in one mix. I suspect Brian wanted it there at one point  anyway as the Vosse and Siegel articles both imply this imo. I posted a thread suggesting this but everybody felt it belonged at the beginning. It's at the start of my mix again  - some trends are hard to buck!

We think a lot alike on this one, too. I like "Our Prayer" near the end also. If I end the mix with either "Surf's Up" or "Heroes And Villains", I like "Our Prayer" right before either of those songs. The way they use that ending snippet of "Our Prayer" right before "Good Vibrations" on BWPS is exactly where I would put it. Although I would never end with "Good Vibrations".

Maybe I'm prejudiced because of where "Our Prayer" appeared on 20/20, I don't know. And I never put a lot of stock in that 1966 tape with a stoned Brian saying how "Our Prayer" would be a good opener, or something to that effect. The closing "hmmmmm" on "Our Prayer" has a finality to it, like they're about to close.

I read a post somewhere by a very respected poster (but I can't remember who it was), and he said that "Our Prayer" should open the album like a prayer would open a religious service, like a church service or something. But the church (or Mass) that I go to opens the service with a hymn or a song, not a prayer! Especially not an a capella prayer...

Ah, the ultimate joy of Smile - you can put anything anywhere and no-one can say you're wrong, because no-one ever knew (or knows) what was supposed to go where. Even Brian.  ;D

Our Prayer fits much better with the more sombre Surf's Up imo and as I'd always put Surf's up near the end I think I should probably put OP there too. Vosse states in the 68 article that Brian was to close the album with Surf's Up followed by a wordless prayer (not his exact words but don't have it to hand) and in the Siegel article Brian is described playing all his Smile acetates for guests and ending with what sounds like Our Prayer. It's strong evidence that at least, at one point, OP was to be a closer to Smile. Of course, as AGD suggests, you really can put anything anywhere and no one can tell you it's wrong - aah, the amorphous joys of Smile!!

If it's the same tape  I have (and Mike says something about the "leaning Tower of Pizza") then it's actually Al Jardine saying that.

I never realized it was Al. I just assumed it was Brian.

Good. If it's Al I don't have to put ANY stock in the quote ;D

Brian says it would be " a little intro to the album," and not a "track." after someone else mentions how "hey this could be a track."  That person might have been Al.

Yeah...the other person was Al, true.