The Smiley Smile Message Board

I got a copy of So Tough/Pet Sounds twofer that the seller says "US original 1972 LP".
So Tough's catalogue number is 2MS2083 and the matrix number is 31454-1 Artisan logo/31455-1 Artisan logo.
Pet Sounds' catalogue number is 2MS2083. the matrix number is MS2197 2MS8023 11452-2 Artisan logo/MS2197 2MS8023 11453-1 Artisan logo.
But there is the warner bros logo on the label.
I guess the logo has been printed from mid 70s. Because the logo appeared on the label from Rock and Roll Music single.
and also this Pet Sounds' MS2197 is the number of Brown Pet Sounds LP that came out around 1974...

So, this twofer is a mid 70s' press? (at least after Brown Pet Sounds?), not the original 1972 LP?

I don't know much about what is the original. It's only the first press? til the second press? or All vinyl that was pressed in the first released year is the original??
Anyone know a site about The Beach Boys' original LP?

Any thoughts would be appriciated.

The "Artisan logo" doesn't refer to the logo on the record label, which would be Warners, but to a logo in the run-out groove, put there by the mastering studio, Artisan Sound. http://www.discogs.com/label/267310-Artisan-Sound-Recorders has a picture of the logo.

The double set you have is indeed the original US release.

Actually the fact that the run-out area for your vinyl contains both the matrix number for the 1972 CATP/PS 2-fer (2MS 2083) and the 1974 brown cover single disc issue (MS 2197) indicates that it's a 1974 (or later) vinyl pressing of the PET SOUNDS disc, and not from the original 1972 pressing run.  My original 1972 CATP/PS pressings have just the 2MS 2083 matrix number.  It would make sense that Warner/Reprise re-purposed the same lacquers two years later for the single disc issue instead of re-cutting them, and just indicated so by adding the new matrix number.

Also all original pressings from this era will have:
"WARNER BROS. RECORDS, INC., A SUBSIDIARY AND LICENSEE OF WARNER BROS. INC.    MADE IN U.S.A"
in the light yellow area on the bottom of the label.

Later Warner pressings (from 1975 on) will have:
"Reprise Records, a division of Warner Bros. Records Inc. * 3300 Warner Blvd., Burbank, Calif. 91505 * a Warner Communications Company * W * Made in U.S.A.

I'm not aware of any CATP/PS copies with the later logo, but I'm not a completist on collecting label variations.

Lee

AndrewHickey
Thank you for your comments.
Yes, the Artisan logo that you referred is in the run-out groove of this twofer.

AGD
Thank you for your comments.

What is the US original that you think?
Do you think it's an original if it's a mid 70s press?

Lee
Thank you for conforming your vinyl's matrix number.
Do you mean Warnet/Reprise added MS2197 to 2MS 2083 in the run-out groove for the single disc issue? (like my twofer, both numbers put there together)


My copy has the later logo that you referred.
I'm not a completist too. but I just want to know this is the original or not.
from your comments about the logo, it might not be the original 1972 press at least.
Although I don't know what is the original.

Correct, since Warner/Reprise already had a perfectly good "cut" of PET SOUNDS from the 2 LP set, it makes sense that they just added the new single disc matrix number in the runout groove and used it for both pressings.  Therefore the PET SOUNDS in the 2 LP set should have identical sound to the PET SOUNDS single disc reissue with the brown cover - and based on my own ears and those of folks on various message boards, they do.

That is interesting that the PET SOUNDS disc in your CARL & THE PASSIONS / PET SOUNDS 2 LP set has the later Warner Communications logo.  Does the CARL & THE PASSIONS disc also have the Warner Communications logo?  If so it denotes a pressing of the 2 LP set from 1975 or later.  On the other hand, if the CATP disc doesn't have the Warner Communications logo but the PET SOUNDS disc does, you may be looking at a mismatched set.  Some collectors swap the records and album covers around until they have a perfect cover and a perfect record, and it could result in a mismatched set of labels with the leftover pieces.

Lee

From Lee's comments, sounds like you have the original issue of CATP but the later Reprise solo reissue of PS. Most odd.

Yes, my So tough disc has the Warner logo and also Pet Sounds disc does too.
See these photos.

(http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y309/sangheon/st12_zpsy958rlcc.jpg)
(http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y309/sangheon/pt12_zps7g1p9k2o.jpg)
 
 

Very interesting!  I have a couple of copies of the CATP/PS two-fer right here, and they both feature the old Warner Brothers logo.  I have a still-sealed copy, but I'm not about to open it up to see which labels it has.

So this means that CATP/PS was still in print as of 1975.  My theory is that after the resurgence of the group with ENDLESS SUMMER and SPIRIT OF AMERICA (and perhaps also after the use of "Wouldn't It Be Nice" in the 1975 hit movie Shampoo), Warner/Reprise may have ordered a new pressing of CATP/PS.  So the order would have been:

1972: CARL & THE PASSIONS / PET SOUNDS two-fer (original release; Warner Brothers info on label)
1974: PET SOUNDS single disc w/ brown cover
1975-76: CARL & THE PASSIONS / PET SOUNDS two-fer (re-release; Warner Communications info on label)

As an aside, I remember around 1980-1981 seeing dozens of still-sealed copies of CATP/PS in the cut-out bins in Kmart and Woolworth's.

There were zillions of these sets in the used record bins. I'm thinking possibly the used vinyl shop mixed and matched a good set together due to the poor quality of a  couple of sides.

Actually according to the OP's last post, both discs (CATP and Pet Sounds) have the Warner Communications logo, so they match -- but just with the newer post-1974 version of the label, which I haven't seen on my copies of CATP.

Lee

Thanks Lee

In addition to the label info from Lee, another really easy way to tell if you have a pre-1975 (or so) pressing of Pet Sounds on Brother/Reprise is the presence of a large black rectangle above the Brother/Reprise logo obscuring the word STEREO, which was preprinted in blue on the label above the logo on the original issues of Sunflower in 1970 thru the single Pet Sounds reissue in 1974. By the time 15 Big Ones Appeared in 1976 the newer label, which sanghoen has, was in use, and the word STEREO disappeared from the blue preprinted portions of the label.

The innergoove info etched into my 1974 copy of the single Pet Sounds reissue is absolutely identical from a handwriting standpoint, as well as the placement of the Artisan logo, to my 1972 CATPST/PS disc, except that on the 1974 single PS disc the "2MS2083" is rather lightly scratched out on both sides, with two long horizontal lines and over a dozen short diagonal lines, and "MS2197" has been added, etched in rather lightly.

I purchased an additional new copy of the CATPST/PS twofer in 1979, but by this time a new master had been made for PS, so rather than reading (on Side 1) "2MS-2083  11452-1A" with the Artisan logo, my 1979 copy reads "2MS-2083 (11452) REC #1 LW1" with no Artisan logo. Lee, I'd be interested to know what the "REC #1" and "LW1" denote.  

Another question for Lee or others in the know - How many pressing plants did Warner Bros use? My recollection is that they did not own their own plants, but farmed their work out. Is that correct? Along those lines, I'm still fascinated by the Steamboat 45s, as here in California I never saw a steamboat labeled BB 45 after Add Some Music, and was quite surprised many years later to learn of their existence. All the California 45s I encountered were pressed on vinyl, but I have seen copies of ASM pressed on polystyrene, which I would assume would denote a different pressing plant.

I believe "REC #1" is short for "RECUT #1", which would indicate that a whole new lacquer was cut for some reason.  Either the max number of mothers and stampers that can be created from the lacquers and their inverse metal master plates was reached, or the metal master was damaged.  Either way, a copy from the Recut has the potential to sound different than a copy from the original lacquer.  I would be curious to know if there is any audible difference.

Thank you! Lee.
Thanks to you I could find out when my vinyl was made! and very surprised that Warner/Reprise may have ordered more new pressing of So Tough/Pet Sounds twofer, not only the single Pet Sounds after 1974.

From my copy's matrix number, the original lacquer may have been used for a pressing of my So tough disc?

Custom Machine
Thank you for your comments!
I don't know much about these label variations. but interesting!

Steamboat?? I want to see it once!

Yes, I believe both or your discs are from the original lacquer since there is no "RECUT" notation with the matrix information.  Any number of stampers may have been made from that lacquer, but sonically they should all be virtually identical.

Lee

Those brown Reprise (aka "Steamboat") label 45's have always puzzled me...  At first I thought that they were a pressing plant error (like the Asylum label copies of SURF's UP), but there are too many of them for it to be an error.

Sangheon, here's a link to a page on the awesome "Beach Boys on 45" website with pictures:

http://www.beachboys45.nl/USA-Regular-Reprise.htm

There are also several U.S. albums that show up with that label -- IN CONCERT, GOOD VIBRATIONS: BEST OF THE BEACH BOYS, and MIU.  Bgas has the only copy of SUNFLOWER that I've ever seen with that label -- he outbid me on eBay.

Lee

OK, you got me  Lee.  
Here are the known Steamboat LP labels( no CATP/PS or 15 BO  has surfaced)  

Lee, I'll have to give give a serious comparison listen to both the original Bro/Rep and the Bro/Rep Recut #1 Pet Sounds and report back as to any sonic differences.

bgas, thanks for posting those Reprise steamboat LP album labels.  Did you purchase any of these as new releases, or were they all purchased later in the collector's market?

Any idea where the Reprise steamboat 45s and LPs were pressed? (Either the pressing plant itself or the part of the country in which they were sold?) Obviously this went on for a few years. Wonder how common they are, and if the pressing plant just never got the word that the Beach Boys had a custom label (although the album covers always showed the Brother/Reprise logo), or if they were not provided with the blank labels or label artwork in order to print up Brother/Reprise labels.

Presuming that the yellow Brother/Reprise label had not yet been designed when the Add Some Music 45 was released, hence the use of the Reprise Steamboat label for that single, I wonder if there are Steamboat labeled copies of Add Some Music in existence without the Brother logo appearing anywhere on the label, as is the case with the subsequent Reprise Steamboat labeled releases.

Man those SUNFLOWER, SURF'S UP, and HOLLAND Reprise LPs are sweet Chris!  I might be willing to give up a Capitol Record Club 8-track for one of those... ;-)

Lee

bgas - are colonial editions eligible for the steamboat award?

I have a Kiwi pressed 15 Big Ones sporting a sweet lookin' steamer!

Lee & Rob - For your info, I also have a 15 BO sans the "modern" Warner logo - plant using up the old stock perhaps?

PS - bitchin' thread, thanks a bunch for the details to look out for!

Alan,

Wow, very cool to learn that your 15 BO from NZ sports the Reprise steamboat label.

Any idea if it would be correct to assume that back in the day LPs sold in Australia and NZ were typically manufactured in one or both of those countries?

 

Hi Custom - no assumption needed for the Australian pressings.

The words "Manufactured in Australia" usually appears in the fine print on the bottom of the label (the stuff that reads left to right from about 7 o'clock to 4 o'clock.

What's interesting is the covers may say "Printed (or Made) in the USA" and you have to check the label in order to determine if US or not. Other times "Printed in Australia" may appear on the cover.

This NZ 15 BOs says on the back cover just to the right of the orange ring Marketed by WEA Records Limited, P.O. Box 2915 Auckland. New Zealand - so whether it was pressed in the US on consignment to WEA NZ office, I dunno. For sake of notation, the dead wax scribe is "MS2251A", "...B", the cover is not a gatefold.

On the back cover below the side 2 track list is an "A" in a black square with MS 2251 printed below the box.  I'll throw up some pics later if of interest.

PS - my UK pressing of Blue by Joni Mitchell also has the steamboat, so not sure if something that was reserved for O/S releases - A

Thanks for the info, Alan. The Reprise steamboat label (of which there were many variations over the years) was the stock Reprise label used for releases by their various artists. As such it's of interest when it was used for Beach Boys releases on Brother/Reprise, since that was a somewhat custom label for the band. I say "somewhat" since the catalog numbers were official Reprise records catalog numbers, and the Reprise logo appeared next to the Brother "Appeal to the Great Spirit" logo, forming the combined Brother/Reprise logo.

By that time the BBs had the good sense to retain ownership of their newly recorded output, but Warner Bros/Reprise had the exclusive right to release and distribute the albums. It would be interesting to know, from a contractual standpoint, if the Brother/Reprise label was required for BB releases or merely suggested. I also wonder if the band and their management knew there were Reprise labels, rather than Brother/Reprise labels, being used in some cases, and if they were aware if they even cared. In any event, it has made for some interesting collectibles.

And thank you, CM, for your info - about 5 minutes after I posted, I realised I was having a blonde moment about the steamboat, having seen it do laps many times while spinning a few other artist LPs.

And re my last post, wouldn't you know it, the 15 BO without the "modern" Warners Logo is actually an AU copy in a printed in USA cover, as per my own ramblings - so we can assume the AU plant hadn't been issued "new" Warner Labels, perhaps.

Anyway, thar' she blows!

(http://i64.tinypic.com/25qgk7o.jpg)

Perhaps I'm missing the point?  

If it's only about Steamboat labels, there are many instances of them being used for BBs LPs worldwide:  Germany, Israel, UK, to name a few.  ;
mirroring Alan's example, here's the Israeli label:  
      

I'd venture it more interesting if an Lp is released withBOTH Steamboat AND  Bro-Rep labels. To complement the US entries, here's Canadian Holland:  

  

Thanks for posting your photos, Alan & Chris.

I'm sure this gets into the business end of things far more than the great majority of BB fans would care about, but bags, since you have such an extensive collection, for a given foreign country (aka, anywhere other than the US) were the Bro/Rep and Reprise steamboat labels both seen in foreign (aka, besides the US) issues concurrently -- eg Holland or any others pressed with both the Bro/Rep and Reprise steamboat label in most countries?

Chris, when you say, "Perhaps I'm missing the point?", the point is that the BBs went to the trouble of establishing their own "boutique" Bro/Rep label, but when various 45s and LPs were released the Bro/Rep label was often not used, with the stock Reprise label being used instead. To me using the stock Reprise not so surprising with foreign releases, but was a big surprise to me when I first learned about such releases in the US.

I might seem logical to assume that when the Brother/Reprise material was first released in a country other than the US that either the Bro/Rep or Reprise label would have been used, but due to contractual agreements that was not the case with Sunflower. How about others?

Finally, while the Reprise steamboat label was used on some LPs, is it correct to assume that when that happened the album cover showed the Bro/Rep label?

Thank you, Lee! I will check the site you reffered!
and I guess the reason why they didn't need Recut is the original lacquer still wasn't damaged caused the poor sales...

Thank you for posting these photos! Alan Smith and bgas!
I've never seen these photos!

 

I was interested to find out if the Steamboat label thing re 15 BOs was strictly re the US printing - earlier in the thread you said: "Here are the known Steamboat LP labels( no CATP/PS or 15 BO  has surfaced)".  Reading back, I can see the context was (most likely) US printings, clear as crystal now. As you were. 

My brown cover Pet Sounds has Warner Communications and has both catalog numbers hand etched, but no Artisan logo. It does have a double dash sideways triangle etched in the runout groove --|> (best I can do drawing here's). Any idea what that means?

 

Here's what I have for non-US issued LPs: 

Argentina--
Sunflower;   EMI-Odeon Pops  Cover and Labels   

Australia-- 
Surf's Up;  Stateside/Brother   Cover  and Labels
Holland;  Brother cover/ Bro-Rep labels   

Brazil-- 
CATP--  Reprise cover/ Bro-Rep labels 
MIU--  Warner Brothers( WB)     Cover and Labels   

Canada-- 
Surf's Up;  Bro-Rep  Cover and Labels   
Holland;  Bro-Rep  Cover and Labels
               Brother Cover/ Steamboat Labels 

France-- 
Surf's Up;  Bro-Rep  Cover and Labels   
Holland;  Brother Cover / Bro-Rep Labels 

Germany-- 
Surf's Up;  Stateside/Brother  Cover and Labels   
CATP;  Bro-Rep Cover/ Steamboat Labels 
Holland;   Brother Cover/ Steamboat Labels   
MIU;  Bro-Rep cover/ Steamboat Labels   

Great Britain-- 
Sunflower; Stateside/ Brother   Cover and Labels   
Surf's Up;    Stateside/ Brother   Cover and Labels   
CATP;  Bro-Rep Cover/ Steamboat Labels   
Holland;  Bro-Rep cover/ Steamboat labels 
15 Big Ones;   Bro-Rep Cover and Labels 
Love You;  Reprise/ WEA cover/ Bro-Rep Labels   

Holland( Netherlands)-- 
Sunflower;  Stateside/Brother Cover and Labels   
Holland;  Brother Cover/ Bro-Rep labels   
Love You;  Reprise/WEA cover/ Bro-Rep labels 

Israel--
Holland; Brother cover/ Steamboat Labels 
15 Big Ones; Brother Cover/ Steamboat Labels 

Japan--
Sunflower;   Stateside Cover/ Stateside-  Brother labels
In Concert; Reprise Cover and Labels( tho I only have a Promo copy)

(South) Korea-- 
Sunflower;  Sung Eum Cover and Labels

South Africa-- 
Sunflower;  Stateside/ Brother    Cover and Labels   
Holland;  Brother Cover / Steamboat Labels   
In Concert;  Reprise/WB cover  /Steamboat labels   ( Only issue I've ever seen with a promo sticker on the cover crediting Blondie and Ricky of " The Flames" )
Love You;  WB/WEA  Cover and Labels 

Venezuela-- 
Sunflower;  EMI- Brother Cover/  EMI- Odeon Labels   

Wow, thanks for the detailed info, Chris. Great collection!

Now if you'll just post a scan or photo of every BB album you own, both cover and label, so we can see exactly what they look like!

Oops, sorry, lost my head! But keep those scans coming whenever you're in the mood.

I guess it would be really nice if we have the thread that anyone can upload the photo of the labels, the matrix number and the covers each their own album.

Hmm, I'm not familiar with that one.  This symbol --<|  (shaped like a wine glass on its side) indicates that a Capitol album was pressed in Capitol Records' Winchester, Virginia plant.  It's actually supposed to represent the stock and barrel of a Winchester rifle...

Here's the best reference I've found to pressing plant symbols:

http://www.discogs.com/lists/Record-Pressing-Plants/213755?limit=250&page=1

Lee

Thanks Lee, that's the one. So, much for my memory and art skills. ;)

Found this here:  http://www.apollomasters.com/story.html

"...Audio Devices set up their first manufacturing plant in a house in New York City. They didn't start production of blank lacquer discs until August 1938. Sometime later (we have no date) they moved the plant to another house in Glenbrook, Connecticut. They continued to make lacquer discs at Glenbrook until around 1972, when Audio Devices was bought by Capitol Records.

In 1974 Capitol Records built a new facility for lacquer disc manufacturing in Winchester, Virginia. At that time, Capitol Records had a record and tape manufacturing plant as well as a distribution center on their 40 acre site."

So IMO this would indicate an East Coast pressing.  I would assume that Audio Devices in CT did the pressing plates for Warner/Reprise, and then with the sale it shifted to Capitol's new facility in Winchester, VA.  The timing works with the brown cover Brother/Reprise PET SOUNDS release.

Lee

Thanks for the link, Lee. So now I finally know what the "LW" in my Bro/Rep albums stands for, Capitol Records pressing plant Los Angeles, for Warner Bros.

This kind of thread sends my head in a spin… phenomenal stuff, chaps, I am gobsmacked at the level of attention and detail, and grateful for what is shared here, even if joining in on any level is way beyond my ability.

If you started discussing the differences in air density within the centre holes of different 45rpm pressings of Mess of Help… singles, I would no longer be surprised.

Well, given that the center hole of a US 45 is significantly larger than that of a UK single, that density would, of course, be proportionately lower. Southern hemisphere pressings are another can of worms entirely, as the Coriolis Effect has to betaken into account.  

In space, of course, no-one can hear you scream, so the point is moot. ;D