What is the original? - Carl and The Passions So Tough.

[Sangheon]

I got a copy of So Tough/Pet Sounds twofer that the seller says "US original 1972 LP".
So Tough's catalogue number is 2MS2083 and the matrix number is 31454-1 Artisan logo/31455-1 Artisan logo.
Pet Sounds' catalogue number is 2MS2083. the matrix number is MS2197 2MS8023 11452-2 Artisan logo/MS2197 2MS8023 11453-1 Artisan logo.
But there is the warner bros logo on the label.
I guess the logo has been printed from mid 70s. Because the logo appeared on the label from Rock and Roll Music single.
and also this Pet Sounds' MS2197 is the number of Brown Pet Sounds LP that came out around 1974...

So, this twofer is a mid 70s' press? (at least after Brown Pet Sounds?), not the original 1972 LP?

I don't know much about what is the original. It's only the first press? til the second press? or All vinyl that was pressed in the first released year is the original??
Anyone know a site about The Beach Boys' original LP?

Any thoughts would be appriciated.

[AndrewHickey]

The "Artisan logo" doesn't refer to the logo on the record label, which would be Warners, but to a logo in the run-out groove, put there by the mastering studio, Artisan Sound. http://www.discogs.com/label/267310-Artisan-Sound-Recorders has a picture of the logo.

[Andrew G. Doe]

The double set you have is indeed the original US release.

[LeeDempsey]

Actually the fact that the run-out area for your vinyl contains both the matrix number for the 1972 CATP/PS 2-fer (2MS 2083) and the 1974 brown cover single disc issue (MS 2197) indicates that it's a 1974 (or later) vinyl pressing of the PET SOUNDS disc, and not from the original 1972 pressing run.  My original 1972 CATP/PS pressings have just the 2MS 2083 matrix number.  It would make sense that Warner/Reprise re-purposed the same lacquers two years later for the single disc issue instead of re-cutting them, and just indicated so by adding the new matrix number.

Also all original pressings from this era will have:
"WARNER BROS. RECORDS, INC., A SUBSIDIARY AND LICENSEE OF WARNER BROS. INC.    MADE IN U.S.A"
in the light yellow area on the bottom of the label.

Later Warner pressings (from 1975 on) will have:
"Reprise Records, a division of Warner Bros. Records Inc. * 3300 Warner Blvd., Burbank, Calif. 91505 * a Warner Communications Company * W * Made in U.S.A.

I'm not aware of any CATP/PS copies with the later logo, but I'm not a completist on collecting label variations.

Lee

[Sangheon]

The "Artisan logo" doesn't refer to the logo on the record label, which would be Warners, but to a logo in the run-out groove, put there by the mastering studio, Artisan Sound. http://www.discogs.com/label/267310-Artisan-Sound-Recorders has a picture of the logo.

AndrewHickey
Thank you for your comments.
Yes, the Artisan logo that you referred is in the run-out groove of this twofer.

[Sangheon]

AGD
Thank you for your comments.

What is the US original that you think?
Do you think it's an original if it's a mid 70s press?

[Sangheon]

Actually the fact that the run-out area for your vinyl contains both the matrix number for the 1972 CATP/PS 2-fer (2MS 2083) and the 1974 brown cover single disc issue (MS 2197) indicates that it's a 1974 vinyl pressing of the PET SOUNDS disc, and not from the original 1972 pressing run.  My original 1972 CATP/PS pressings have just the 2MS 2083 matrix number.  It would make sense that Warner/Reprise re-purposed the same lacquers two years later for the single disc issue instead of re-cutting them, and just indicated so by adding the new matrix number.

Lee
Thank you for conforming your vinyl's matrix number.
Do you mean Warnet/Reprise added MS2197 to 2MS 2083 in the run-out groove for the single disc issue? (like my twofer, both numbers put there together)

Also all original pressings from this era will have:
"WARNER BROS. RECORDS, INC., A SUBSIDIARY AND LICENSEE OF WARNER BROS. INC.    MADE IN U.S.A"
in the light yellow area on the bottom of the label.

Later Warner pressings (from 1976 on) will have:
"Reprise Records, a division of Warner Bros. Records Inc. * 3300 Warner Blvd., Burbank, Calif. 91505 * a Warner Communications Company * W * Made in U.S.A.

I'm not aware of any CATP/PS copies with the later logo, but I'm not a completist on collecting label variations.

Lee

My copy has the later logo that you referred.
I'm not a completist too. but I just want to know this is the original or not.
from your comments about the logo, it might not be the original 1972 press at least.
Although I don't know what is the original.

[LeeDempsey]

Correct, since Warner/Reprise already had a perfectly good "cut" of PET SOUNDS from the 2 LP set, it makes sense that they just added the new single disc matrix number in the runout groove and used it for both pressings.  Therefore the PET SOUNDS in the 2 LP set should have identical sound to the PET SOUNDS single disc reissue with the brown cover - and based on my own ears and those of folks on various message boards, they do.

That is interesting that the PET SOUNDS disc in your CARL & THE PASSIONS / PET SOUNDS 2 LP set has the later Warner Communications logo.  Does the CARL & THE PASSIONS disc also have the Warner Communications logo?  If so it denotes a pressing of the 2 LP set from 1975 or later.  On the other hand, if the CATP disc doesn't have the Warner Communications logo but the PET SOUNDS disc does, you may be looking at a mismatched set.  Some collectors swap the records and album covers around until they have a perfect cover and a perfect record, and it could result in a mismatched set of labels with the leftover pieces.

Lee

[Andrew G. Doe]

AGD
Thank you for your comments.

What is the US original that you think?
Do you think it's an original if it's a mid 70s press?

From Lee's comments, sounds like you have the original issue of CATP but the later Reprise solo reissue of PS. Most odd.

[Sangheon]

Correct, since Warner/Reprise already had a perfectly good "cut" of PET SOUNDS from the 2 LP set, it makes sense that they just added the new single disc matrix number in the runout groove and used it for both pressings.  Therefore the PET SOUNDS in the 2 LP set should have identical sound to the PET SOUNDS single disc reissue with the brown cover - and based on my own ears and those of folks on various message boards, they do.

That is interesting that the PET SOUNDS disc in your CARL & THE PASSIONS / PET SOUNDS 2 LP set has the later Warner Communications logo.  Does the CARL & THE PASSIONS disc also have the Warner Communications logo?  If so it denotes a pressing of the 2 LP set from 1975 or later.  On the other hand, if the CATP disc doesn't have the Warner Communications logo but the PET SOUNDS disc does, you may be looking at a mismatched set.  Some collectors swap the records and album covers around until they have a perfect cover and a perfect record, and it could result in a mismatched set of labels with the leftover pieces.

Lee

Yes, my So tough disc has the Warner logo and also Pet Sounds disc does too.
See these photos.



 
 

[LeeDempsey]

Very interesting!  I have a couple of copies of the CATP/PS two-fer right here, and they both feature the old Warner Brothers logo.  I have a still-sealed copy, but I'm not about to open it up to see which labels it has.

So this means that CATP/PS was still in print as of 1975.  My theory is that after the resurgence of the group with ENDLESS SUMMER and SPIRIT OF AMERICA (and perhaps also after the use of "Wouldn't It Be Nice" in the 1975 hit movie Shampoo), Warner/Reprise may have ordered a new pressing of CATP/PS.  So the order would have been:

1972: CARL & THE PASSIONS / PET SOUNDS two-fer (original release; Warner Brothers info on label)
1974: PET SOUNDS single disc w/ brown cover
1975-76: CARL & THE PASSIONS / PET SOUNDS two-fer (re-release; Warner Communications info on label)

As an aside, I remember around 1980-1981 seeing dozens of still-sealed copies of CATP/PS in the cut-out bins in Kmart and Woolworth's.

[SurfRiderHawaii]

There were zillions of these sets in the used record bins. I'm thinking possibly the used vinyl shop mixed and matched a good set together due to the poor quality of a  couple of sides.

[LeeDempsey]

There were zillions of these sets in the used record bins. I'm thinking possibly the used vinyl shop mixed and matched a good set together due to the poor quality of a  couple of sides.

Actually according to the OP's last post, both discs (CATP and Pet Sounds) have the Warner Communications logo, so they match -- but just with the newer post-1974 version of the label, which I haven't seen on my copies of CATP.

Lee

[SurfRiderHawaii]

There were zillions of these sets in the used record bins. I'm thinking possibly the used vinyl shop mixed and matched a good set together due to the poor quality of a  couple of sides.

Actually according to the OP's last post, both discs (CATP and Pet Sounds) have the Warner Communications logo, so they match -- but just with the newer post-1974 version of the label, which I haven't seen on my copies of CATP.

Lee

Thanks Lee

[Custom Machine]

In addition to the label info from Lee, another really easy way to tell if you have a pre-1975 (or so) pressing of Pet Sounds on Brother/Reprise is the presence of a large black rectangle above the Brother/Reprise logo obscuring the word STEREO, which was preprinted in blue on the label above the logo on the original issues of Sunflower in 1970 thru the single Pet Sounds reissue in 1974. By the time 15 Big Ones Appeared in 1976 the newer label, which sanghoen has, was in use, and the word STEREO disappeared from the blue preprinted portions of the label.

The innergoove info etched into my 1974 copy of the single Pet Sounds reissue is absolutely identical from a handwriting standpoint, as well as the placement of the Artisan logo, to my 1972 CATPST/PS disc, except that on the 1974 single PS disc the "2MS2083" is rather lightly scratched out on both sides, with two long horizontal lines and over a dozen short diagonal lines, and "MS2197" has been added, etched in rather lightly.

I purchased an additional new copy of the CATPST/PS twofer in 1979, but by this time a new master had been made for PS, so rather than reading (on Side 1) "2MS-2083  11452-1A" with the Artisan logo, my 1979 copy reads "2MS-2083 (11452) REC #1 LW1" with no Artisan logo. Lee, I'd be interested to know what the "REC #1" and "LW1" denote.  

Another question for Lee or others in the know - How many pressing plants did Warner Bros use? My recollection is that they did not own their own plants, but farmed their work out. Is that correct? Along those lines, I'm still fascinated by the Steamboat 45s, as here in California I never saw a steamboat labeled BB 45 after Add Some Music, and was quite surprised many years later to learn of their existence. All the California 45s I encountered were pressed on vinyl, but I have seen copies of ASM pressed on polystyrene, which I would assume would denote a different pressing plant.

[LeeDempsey]

I believe "REC #1" is short for "RECUT #1", which would indicate that a whole new lacquer was cut for some reason.  Either the max number of mothers and stampers that can be created from the lacquers and their inverse metal master plates was reached, or the metal master was damaged.  Either way, a copy from the Recut has the potential to sound different than a copy from the original lacquer.  I would be curious to know if there is any audible difference.

[Sangheon]

Very interesting!  I have a couple of copies of the CATP/PS two-fer right here, and they both feature the old Warner Brothers logo.  I have a still-sealed copy, but I'm not about to open it up to see which labels it has.

So this means that CATP/PS was still in print as of 1975.  My theory is that after the resurgence of the group with ENDLESS SUMMER and SPIRIT OF AMERICA (and perhaps also after the use of "Wouldn't It Be Nice" in the 1975 hit movie Shampoo), Warner/Reprise may have ordered a new pressing of CATP/PS.  So the order would have been:

1972: CARL & THE PASSIONS / PET SOUNDS two-fer (original release; Warner Brothers info on label)
1974: PET SOUNDS single disc w/ brown cover
1975-76: CARL & THE PASSIONS / PET SOUNDS two-fer (re-release; Warner Communications info on label)

As an aside, I remember around 1980-1981 seeing dozens of still-sealed copies of CATP/PS in the cut-out bins in Kmart and Woolworth's.

Thank you! Lee.
Thanks to you I could find out when my vinyl was made! and very surprised that Warner/Reprise may have ordered more new pressing of So Tough/Pet Sounds twofer, not only the single Pet Sounds after 1974.

From my copy's matrix number, the original lacquer may have been used for a pressing of my So tough disc?

[Sangheon]

In addition to the label info from Lee, another really easy way to tell if you have a pre-1975 (or so) pressing of Pet Sounds on Brother/Reprise is the presence of a large black rectangle above the Brother/Reprise logo obscuring the word STEREO, which was preprinted in blue on the label above the logo on the original issues of Sunflower in 1970 thru the single Pet Sounds reissue in 1974. By the time 15 Big Ones Appeared in 1976 the newer label, which sanghoen has, was in use, and the word STEREO disappeared from the blue preprinted portions of the label.

The innergoove info etched into my 1974 copy of the single Pet Sounds reissue is absolutely identical from a handwriting standpoint, as well as the placement of the Artisan logo, to my 1972 CATPST/PS disc, except that on the 1974 single PS disc the "2MS2083" is rather lightly scratched out on both sides, with two long horizontal lines and over a dozen short diagonal lines, and "MS2197" has been added, etched in rather lightly.

I purchased an additional new copy of the CATPST/PS twofer in 1979, but by this time a new master had been made for PS, so rather than reading (on Side 1) "2MS-2083  11452-1A" with the Artisan logo, my 1979 copy reads "2MS-2083 (11452) REC #1 LW1" with no Artisan logo. Lee, I'd be interested to know what the "REC #1" and "LW1" denote.  

Another question for Lee or others in the know - How many pressing plants did Warner Bros use? My recollection is that they did not own their own plants, but farmed their work out. Is that correct? Along those lines, I'm still fascinated by the Steamboat 45s, as here in California I never saw a steamboat labeled BB 45 after Add Some Music, and was quite surprised many years later to learn of their existence. All the California 45s I encountered were pressed on vinyl, but I have seen copies of ASM pressed on polystyrene, which I would assume would denote a different pressing plant.

Custom Machine
Thank you for your comments!
I don't know much about these label variations. but interesting!

Steamboat?? I want to see it once!

[LeeDempsey]

From my copy's matrix number, the original lacquer may have been used for a pressing of my So tough disc?

Yes, I believe both or your discs are from the original lacquer since there is no "RECUT" notation with the matrix information.  Any number of stampers may have been made from that lacquer, but sonically they should all be virtually identical.

Lee

[LeeDempsey]

I'm still fascinated by the Steamboat 45s, as here in California I never saw a steamboat labeled BB 45 after Add Some Music, and was quite surprised many years later to learn of their existence. All the California 45s I encountered were pressed on vinyl, but I have seen copies of ASM pressed on polystyrene, which I would assume would denote a different pressing plant.

Those brown Reprise (aka "Steamboat") label 45's have always puzzled me...  At first I thought that they were a pressing plant error (like the Asylum label copies of SURF's UP), but there are too many of them for it to be an error.

Sangheon, here's a link to a page on the awesome "Beach Boys on 45" website with pictures:

http://www.beachboys45.nl/USA-Regular-Reprise.htm

There are also several U.S. albums that show up with that label -- IN CONCERT, GOOD VIBRATIONS: BEST OF THE BEACH BOYS, and MIU.  Bgas has the only copy of SUNFLOWER that I've ever seen with that label -- he outbid me on eBay.

Lee

[bgas]

I'm still fascinated by the Steamboat 45s, as here in California I never saw a steamboat labeled BB 45 after Add Some Music, and was quite surprised many years later to learn of their existence. All the California 45s I encountered were pressed on vinyl, but I have seen copies of ASM pressed on polystyrene, which I would assume would denote a different pressing plant.

Those brown Reprise (aka "Steamboat") label 45's have always puzzled me...  At first I thought that they were a pressing plant error (like the Asylum label copies of SURF's UP), but there are too many of them for it to be an error.

Sangheon, here's a link to a page on the awesome "Beach Boys on 45" website with pictures:

http://www.beachboys45.nl/USA-Regular-Reprise.htm

There are also several U.S. albums that show up with that label -- IN CONCERT, GOOD VIBRATIONS: BEST OF THE BEACH BOYS, and MIU.  Bgas has the only copy of SUNFLOWER that I've ever seen with that label -- he outbid me on eBay.

Lee

OK, you got me  Lee.  
Here are the known Steamboat LP labels( no CATP/PS or 15 BO  has surfaced)  

[Custom Machine]

Lee, I'll have to give give a serious comparison listen to both the original Bro/Rep and the Bro/Rep Recut #1 Pet Sounds and report back as to any sonic differences.

bgas, thanks for posting those Reprise steamboat LP album labels.  Did you purchase any of these as new releases, or were they all purchased later in the collector's market?

Any idea where the Reprise steamboat 45s and LPs were pressed? (Either the pressing plant itself or the part of the country in which they were sold?) Obviously this went on for a few years. Wonder how common they are, and if the pressing plant just never got the word that the Beach Boys had a custom label (although the album covers always showed the Brother/Reprise logo), or if they were not provided with the blank labels or label artwork in order to print up Brother/Reprise labels.

Presuming that the yellow Brother/Reprise label had not yet been designed when the Add Some Music 45 was released, hence the use of the Reprise Steamboat label for that single, I wonder if there are Steamboat labeled copies of Add Some Music in existence without the Brother logo appearing anywhere on the label, as is the case with the subsequent Reprise Steamboat labeled releases.

[LeeDempsey]

Man those SUNFLOWER, SURF'S UP, and HOLLAND Reprise LPs are sweet Chris!  I might be willing to give up a Capitol Record Club 8-track for one of those... ;-)

Lee

[Alan Smith]

bgas - are colonial editions eligible for the steamboat award?

I have a Kiwi pressed 15 Big Ones sporting a sweet lookin' steamer!

Lee & Rob - For your info, I also have a 15 BO sans the "modern" Warner logo - plant using up the old stock perhaps?

PS - bitchin' thread, thanks a bunch for the details to look out for!

[Custom Machine]

Alan,

Wow, very cool to learn that your 15 BO from NZ sports the Reprise steamboat label.

Any idea if it would be correct to assume that back in the day LPs sold in Australia and NZ were typically manufactured in one or both of those countries?