The Smiley Smile Message Board

I was going to put this in the album disussion section, but it's not a very active section, so I'll post this here. Lately, I have been listening to a lot of 20/20, and boy, it is a phenomenal album. I love pretty much every song, with the exception of "Never Learn Not To Love".

One of the big criticisms I have seen for the album is that it is a hodgepodge. Which I agree with. I don't think anyone can argue that fact. But what I don't understand is why Sunflower or Surf's Up don't carry a similar criticism. Don't get me wrong, I love those albums too. But they don't seem extremely cohesive to me either. Sure, 20/20 has some Smile tracks on it. But so do Sunflower and Surf's Up.

Can an album with "Cool, Cool Water", "Add Some Music", and "Got To Know The Woman" be considered cohesive?
How about "Surf's Up", "Disney Girls 1957" and "Student Demonstration Time"?

Again, I love all 3 of these albums. Some of the Beach Boys' best. But I'm having trouble understanding why 20/20 is the only one to recieve this criticism, when all 3 have a variety of tracks that wouldn't necessarily fit together.

To each his own, but I really think that "Never Learn Not To Love"  is a stellar track with a great production.

Do you truly think it's a subpar/lame song, or do you think that your feelings might be colored by the cowriting history behind it?

Oh, it's got amazing production. But I'm just not a huge fan of the song itself. Doesn't really have to do with Manson. In fact, his cowriting makes it more interesting. But I don't like the actual song, that's all. Maybe I will get it one day.

Rocket,

I recently posted in the album section my opinions on 20/20.  

I basically said that not every album needs to be a cohesive flowing piece of work ie Pet Sounds, Sgt Peppers, Dark Side of the Moon, Quadrophenia, etc.

Some albums are just collections of songs, and 20/20 is one of these.  It's a collection of singles, newly recorded songs, and Smile outtakes.  But since the quality of the material is so good, it really works.  

Despite the association with Manson, I even like Never Learn Not to Love.  

Personally, I think 20/20 is just another in the string of really strong albums the Beach Boys released between 1968-1973.  

I definitely agree with all of that.

If one is to criticize 20/20 for not being cohesive, then they can't say that Sunflower or Surf's Up are. They are all amazing, but also pretty much all the same. Different in quality of the songs (Sunflower is the best imo), but all the same type of album.

I'd say 20/20 is the start of The BB's second run of classic albums. If only Brian had got it together enough to finish Can't Wait Too Long or Ol' Man River off and included it instead of Bluebirds Over the Mountain it would have been a 5/5 album.

20/20 has been a big fave since I first heard it decades ago but I think the hodge-lodge tag stocks not because the songs are so stylistically different but because they don't sound like they even come from the same band/studio/mastering process. It's more like a "various artists" release and sounds like it was out together over a decade rather than a couple or three years. Fortunately it is at least as good as the sum of its parts.

The other band members wanted nothing to do with Ol' Man River or Brian's ideas for it after a certain point in the process, which is why it never made it to an album.

The guys had been putting out non album a-sides for quite a few months, 20/20 just rounds them all up. If you take into account that the 2 Smile tracks had additional work done on them then all the other tracks come from the same timeframe.


True, I just wish Brian had put his foot down. He WAS still the leader.

That could be debated - At that point in time there were feelings within the group that they could do it without much input, if any at all, from Brian, and where his ideas in the past were a main point of consideration, by this time they simply didn't consider as much of what he was suggesting. They thought they could do it on their own, and that's how they went about business. The "Ol Man River" situation is one of the prime musical examples of this, where Brian had the idea to do this recording a certain way and the Beach Boys basically didn't pay much attention to those wishes or ideas. And the idea (and the song) got shelved.

Personally I think surfs up holds together extremely well as an album. The songs flow perfectly, with (imo) the exception of student demonstration time. Sunflower also has a sheen over the tracks that makes it all feel part of the same project. 20/20 does feel like a hodgepodge in contrast. To me at least.

Really? I`m not sure that ties in with the reality of the situation.

I don`t have the Catch a Wave book to hand but my memory is that the group spent a fair amount of time working on Ol Man River but called time on it when it didn`t seem to be nearing completion.

Maybe the Boys were wanting him to get off the pot and finish OMR for release? Weren't they broke at the time and obviously needing something for an album (hence the "hodge podge")?

 100% agree

20/20 is definitely a collection, same with Light album and Keepin the summer alive, only dif is that 20/20 is a great comp.

Dennis once said 20/20 was the only album that embarrassed him through-and-through (granted, this was before MIU and KTSA come into being), because they had to find little bits and pieces of things that Brian had started and finish them off to put the thing together. I guess he felt, in this case, that the end didn't justify the means. May seem silly for an outsider to feel that way, though - and I agree with you, it's a great album - one of my favorites.

I figured he'd be more embarrassed by his Manson cover.

I would say that the 2 Smile tracks at the end do stand out a lot more than the closing songs on either Sunflower or Surf`s Up.

And I think the other tracks hand together less well also.

There are a lot of fine songs and individually they are probably better than those on the Friends album. But I don`t think they make for a cohesive listening experience.

I would think "disturbed", but not embarrassed.

Carlin says the Boys would drop everything and do anything to help Brian do whatever Brian was willing to do but Brian's cocaine use and obsessive behavior was getting in the way of his productivity.

Do session docs show a lot of recordings for OMR?

That's always the impression I got, both from the Carlin book and what Stephen Desper has commented on. The guys would work on their stuff but drop it the second Brian wanted to try something.

It seems to me that Carlin's info probably came from Stephen Desper in that section.

How can someone be embarrassed about something so beautifully epic as Time To Get Alone?! Yes it was 'stolen' from Three Dog Night but it's not exactly a 'scrap' is it? It's a song that was worthy of a single release. It frustrates me so much that the wider world doesn't know about this one.

20/20 is my favourite album. I don't see it as a hodgepodge. To me it's simply an album full of songs that make me happy and is one I would happily recommend to non BB listeners.

Collection or not its a solid lp, Americans at that had turned a deaf ear to rockNroll but the BBs were sellin like hotcakes in Europe and elsewhere.

I really, REALLY like 20/20 a LOT.  Never Learn Not to Love was a terrific song.  Loved it actually.  That, or course, before the whole Helter Skelter...Tate-LaBianca Manson horror show tainted the tune.  I mean WOW!!!  Our Prayer and Cabinessence?  Makes it a stellar album right there.  And there was more.

OK...It isn't perfect.  T'was the wrong version of Cotton Fields.  The lead guitar SOUND on Bluebirds totally dated the song right out of the box.  The production isn't quite 'on'...close but not quite.  Nearest Faraway Place needed to be further away.  [a lot further]  But all in all...for me it was the best album after Pet Sounds...right alongside Friends...until Sunflower.  Time to Get Alone [Deep and Wide]?  One of their VERY best tunes ever.  Any album.

The only problem I can think of with 20/20 is that it's just not long enough. There should have been a couple more songs on it.

I made this for personal listening.

Side 1

1. Do It Again
2. We're Together Again
3. I Can Hear Music
4. Bluebirds Over the Mountain
5. Be With Me
6. All I Want to Do
7. Walk On By
8. Old Folks at Home/Ol' Man River

Side 2

9. Sail Plane Song
10. The Nearest Faraway Place
11. Cotton Fields
12. I Went to Sleep
13. Time to Get Alone
14. Our Prayer
15. Cabinessence
16. A Time to Live in Dreams

Since Carlin's book is being referenced, maybe one of you should quote in this thread the description from that book of how work Ol' Man River was stopped, who specifically was named in how that happened, and what Brian said about it decades later.

Somebody had quoted part of it, what happened to it?

"When Brian did get out of bed, his behavior grew increasingly strange and obsessive. He recorded dozens of versions of 'Ol' Man River', from the Jerome Kern musical Showboat, constantly finding new combinations of chords, instruments, and voices to alter the feel of the old Broadway standard. "He was always working on it", Stephen Desper remembers. "I definitely recorded that song a lot of times". The guys eventually tired of that, though, and one day Mike announced that he'd had it, thank you very much, and now they were done wasting their time and money on Brian's "Old Man River" experiments. Brian left the studio with his eyes stinging. (And he still remembers how angry it made him: "Mike was really cocky about that one," he complains with a sour smile.  "I remember that much about it.")"

So I guess the group was dropping everything and doing anything, lot of times for Brian on OMR alone, but even they got tired of it and Mike spoke up.

Brace yourselves...the THREAD is about to begin.

I love what I have started  ;D

 I totally get what you're saying… And I think that the album probably has the reputation in part because it's a matter of historical fact that the band didn't go into the studio to record an LP. Since we know it is assembled from various parts, that probably makes it easier to point out  that the songs sound quite different from one another, as opposed to the following two albums, which I agree are similarly  not particularly cohesive in terms of styles, but were nevertheless from their orgins  envisioned as proper albums, so they probably get more of a free "cohesiveness" pass for that.  Not that any of this is a bad thing, all three of those are some of my favorite records ever!

No one expects the Comfy THREAD!

I was wondering how much of these OMR sessions are documented. This is a bunch of guys who worked so hard for Brian they did 60+ takes of a few seconds of a song without a complaint, for them to get worn down is saying something.

This is as good a thread as any:

So, what's the story behind the two different versions of "Old Man River" that have been released? We have the slow, mainly vocal version on MiC and Hawthorne, CA and we have the uptempo version on the Friends/20/20 twofer. Were they recorded around same time? Are there possibly more versions of this song?

Perhaps it was all of the guys who got weary after awhile, but one person leading the charge in a tactless way might have gone too far.  Sometimes it's not just about what one says, but *how *one says something, that makes the lasting difference. I know that everybody is human, and everybody is allowed to lose their temper sometimes, but the fact that this incident was remembered so clearly by Brian has to say something. And heaven forbid, suppose it was in any way, shape or form, a pattern. Even giving Mike the benefit of the doubt, maybe it wasn't a pattern. Maybe just this one time.

Still, I don't see why it would be an incredible shock to anyone then, that years later, somebody who has been fingered by Brian himself as exhibiting cocky and hurtful behavior in the studio, might not simply + easily just magically be granted the wish of the mythic alone-in-a-room situation. That's gonna add a layer of complexity to the proceedings. Is anyone actually shocked by this?

It's good to see the full quote, whatever was posted before seemed to leave out the part about Mike.

And how does it become the group had it, when all it said in the book was they tired of it...and Mike was the one who scuttled the thing? They may have tired of it, they probably tired of all the Good Vibrations and Heroes sessions too, but those "tiring" sessions gave them a #1 hit, a top 10 single, and two songs that became staples of the live shows from 67 onward.

Dropping everything and doing anything. What does that include if that's the guess as to what they did at this time?

A lot of unfounded assumptions and conclusions being drawn there, Cam, a lot of them. And the original discussion somehow left out the part about Mike, again I'm glad to see the full telling of the story now available for those reading it who, if based solely on what was posted earlier, might think it was all a case of cocaine use and obsessive behavior.

Not at all, I thought I saw only the Mike part already quoted in one of the posts before but it is gone now. I was pointing out that there was more to it than just that posted Mike story. Did no one else see it or do and delete it?

How would Mike scuttle anything without the group? Carlin says group was tired of it and that Mike said the group was done wasting their time and money on it.

The "do anything" bit is on the next page in my copy, page 141.

I don't know what Carlin knows about it but he does seem to be making the point that cocaine and obsessive behavior was the problem and not just with one song.

Maybe the group were all in fact tired of it, but they were still going along with it (including Mike for a time), and willing to keep up an appearance (for Brian's sake) that they weren't getting tired of it... but perhaps without Mike losing his patience and getting cocky, if he'd simply gone along with the proceedings for awhile longer, the song could have been finished. It's something to consider.   

Well, Mike scuttled this one according to the text above. I see nothing suggesting the other band members did anything beyond "tiring" of working on the song, that's different from declaring *they* had it with the song.

Just so I understand, you're reading this conclusively into what Carlin's book said about Ol Man River, do you also accept the things Carlin wrote and reported about Smile among other things at face value as they way they happened, specifically regarding various situations involving Mike?

I completely agree that Mike is apparently the one who put the final nail in that song.

But I`m still not sure what you were getting at with regards to, ` At that point in time there were feelings within the group that they could do it without much input, if any at all, from Brian`. That was the point of my post.

I guess there was a limit to how long the band were willing to indulge Brian by 1969. You can't exactly blame them, by '69 the pressure to claw back their fanbase was high.

Good summation!

Ol' Man River was one of those exquisities that demonstrated Brian at his subtlest and best. While not part of the Smile sessions, I think of it as being Brian in that similar state of mind, along with Time to Get Alone and a handful of others. If the band really did spend so much time on sessions for it before Mike and/or the band pulled the plug, I hope we get to hear some more.

And while I hate to say it, I truthfully don't think it can be underestimated that instances like that may have negatively effected the quantity of Brian's subsequent output at the time as well.

Yes, I`m sure you do.  ;)

Obviously Brian was hurt by that but he was massively involved in the Sunflower sessions and contributed more than an album`s worth of material. It was when that album bombed that he pulled back.

I'd have to double check the writing credits, but I don't think Brian's Sunflower involvement would be best quantified as massive.  But yes, that album bombing certainly did not help either.

I said the Sunflower sessions...

He has 7 writing credits on the album itself (a couple of them being generous perhaps) but he had also written or co-written Good Time, I Just Got My Pay, Loop De Loop, When Girls Get Together, Where is She, Soulful Old Man Sunshine, Walkin ( I think this was Brian?), Til I Die etc.

A very prolific period for him.

I read it as Mike agreed with the group and spoke for them. That's the way Carlin writes it: Mike speaks for himself and then speaks for the group.  Either way they worked on it a lot according to Desper. If he means only Mike wanted to stop and the group didn't, how would the rest of the group be prevented from continuing. We can just disagree until someone/something clarifies it.

As I said before "I don't know what Carlin knows about it". (Actually it might be Brian who made that claim about Mike and the group, with Brian's quote being the next thing and all) Do we know that work stopped on OMR with 20/20? It's kind of a BB history thing to claim someone(s) was against doing something but there they are on the tapes singing it all or that they refused to sing something but there they are on tape volunteering to sing the whole song.

Anyways I like hodgepodge.

  

Do you also think the "Macarena" is four times better than "Kokomo" since the former sold about four times the amount of the latter? I noticed you decided never to answer me or CenturyDeprived in the other thread. Seemed pretty odd that you all of a sudden stopped answering.

If you are right, it is then Popular Music which was four times as popular. Are we done now?

I'm not part of that equation. I don't think sales equals quality. You were the one who said it. If you disagree with your own premise feel free to admit it.

It has nothing to do with my or your opinion beyond our one vote or no vote, the genre ranks itself imo. Unless the charts have been just my opinion all this time.

So you stand by the fact that Summer In Paradise is one of the worst ever works by a major artist, due to the fact that it barely sold into the thousands? It is interesting that you have no problem saying "Kokomo" is "better" than "This Whole World" cuz it sold more copies, but when it's "Who Let the Dogs Out" versus "Kokomo" with "Who Let the Dogs" out selling more copies you will not admit the same.

It's almost like you won't say what could be taken as a bad word about a certain singer. It's odd.

And it leads me to believe that no one should listen to you about "Old Man River" or any other subject dealing with Mike Love or any other Beach Boy, due to your obvious infatuation with one Doctor Love.

I was looking at the Billboard charts when NPP came out. 

Looking at the stuff in the Top 20, I can say once and for all that there is absolutely no way possible that sales equals quality. 

Wasn't Good Vibrations kept out of the #1 spot by the novelty song "Westchester Cathedral"?  It was either Good Vibrations or I Can See For Miles by The Who.  Either way, it's a farce. 

When The Beach Boys released Sunflower it was the lowest charting Beach Boys LP at that time, and I don't think it cracked the Top 100.  It's now regarded as one of their best all-time albums. 

Another case in point, this summer One Direction is playing concerts at football stadiums while Brian Wilson is playing relatively small venues.

I think you are a little mistaken there. Good Vibrations got to number one and then Winchester Cathedral knocked it off the top spot. It also won the Grammy though.

Brian certainly isn`t playing small venues in the U.K. that`s for sure...

Maybe that's what I was thinking of.  But just the plain fact that Winchester Cathedral went to #1 at all in 1967, when there was so much great music coming down, just shows how quality doesn't equal sales. 

I know Brian's playing bigger venues across the pond because in general, Brian Wilson's full catalog seems to be much more appreciated in the UK than here in the states.  Which is why the UK in general also gets fuller Beach Boys setlists than we do here. 

I want an Old Man River box!

How about a CD that contains an hour long version of "Shortnin Bread." 

Iggy Pop gives it four stars "Scared the Hell outta me!!!!!" 

I see, well thanks for sharing. Again.

Carlin says Mike/Boys supposedly call it on work for OMR and then on the next page he says work continued on OMR. Anybody have a timeline of the OMR recordings?

OMR being abandoned is hardly some big scandal. It was an odd choice for a cover song in the first place, considering the times and the desperate condition of the band in the marketplace. All that time, effort, and money spent on a cover that would be album filler at best, and at worst might not even make the final cut.

It's the routine give-and-take that every band must go through. What gives it interest in the saga of the Beach Boys is that the band has now become a democracy, and Brian -- for the first time -- is no longer calling all the shots.

All that said, it's a shame that OMR was never finished. Even incomplete, it's a minor gem.

100% agreed.

Sooner or later the band had to realize that work needed to be done in order to keep the band moving forward. Endless takes of Ol' Man River, despite its status as a small treasure, were simply a distraction. Michael was right to point it out after a while. But since the band was a "democracy" at this point, the fact that the work stopped on the track is proof positive that clearly most of the rest of the band agreed with the sentiment.

I don't see that as being anti-Brian or pro-Michael; it's just the truth.

 :lol

I think the main offender in my eyes----and a true embarrasment in Beach Boy Land----is "All I Want To Do", the whole gosh-darn song, not just the "blue" fade. As for 20/20 in general: Maybe the peaks are too high and the troughs too low. I'll get back to it one day...

I agree. If Brian had told Mike that he was done with Mike's experiments and the band wasn't going to spend anymore time and money on it I bet no one would think anything of it.  (Waiting for Mike experiment jokes)  It seems like there is always a suggestion that the Band was almost always in some kind of conflict or resistance to Brian but to me it seems like they almost never were and they did almost everything Brian ever asked and worked very hard at it, whether they understood it or not, in almost every instance. I mean, OMR seems like it might be the rare or even singular example of the band drawing a line for Brian and still it seems the Band had already worked very hard numerous times trying to realize Brian's visions for the song.

Carlin seems to say that OFAH/OMR was continuing work on OMR after Mike/Band's declaration they were out, yet the date for OFAH/OMR on the two-fer is May 1968 while the date for OMR on Hawthorne is shown as later in June 1968. BB history is hard.

I somewhat agree about All I Want to Do but they did at least make a good job of it in concert (though I am glad that plans for Mike to sing it again in 2004 never materialized).

As for The Nearest Faraway Place, I think that gets a bad rap. A very pretty tune and I believe that it was so popular when Bruce performed it live that the other members were actually jealous of the reception it got. I may be alone in this but I would quite like to see Bruce do this one in concert again...

Old Leafish bias with regard to the band still runs deep.

The band went above and beyond to accommodate Brian in the post-Smile period, but sooner or later people need to realize that the Beach Boys made their decisions in the moment. I'm quite sure they were unconcerned with the musings of a bunch of people on a forum on the same topics nearly fifty years later. They were in it to make music and money. When the latter was in danger of running out, going through endless takes of Ol' Man River was not an option. I don't blame Michael for speaking up one bit. You can be Mr. Artist all you want, but you can't eat endless takes of Ol' Man River.

Well it's good that the band and Mike didn't stop the "endless" takes of Pet Sounds tracks and Good Vibrations. Those had to feel like many, many (well beyond the "typical") takes/tries, but most likely there was no cocky explosion of hurtful rejection on the same level. I'm sure in an alternate universe, that could have well happened, and maybe we wouldn't have had those projects released at all (shudder to think).

And yes, I can understand that the band (and Mike in particular) might have lost confidence in Brian due to SMiLE's non-completion, which could have affected their stance for OMR sessions... but again, the irony is that it's probably that very loss of confidence, which when it began to unmistakably show with one member's particular reaction, that helped feed into Brian's uncertainty and indecision. He fed off of and truly needed enthusiasm (as many real artists do), and a lack of it (in fact, the eventual 180 degree complete opposite by Mike) is probably just as much to blame.

Apples and oranges. Brian was still at the acme of his talent at that time and could produce results.


I don't buy the argument that Brian was pushed back against so badly. He still finished Pet Sounds and Good Vibrations and came within maybe a couple of months of finishing Smile. Later on when the contributions were inconsistent and few and far between, it probably wasn't worth it to go on and on with tons of Ol' Man River when it wasn't really going anywhere.

Problem with your analogy is: Brian experimenting had already shown a history of incredible music, such as Pet Sounds and Good Vibrations. What experiment did Mike ever have up his sleeve? Brian had already proved himself; the OMR sessions weren't done during the Surfin' Safari era, where Brian experimenting was an unproven entity. Granted, SMiLE's lack of completion had to have colored their thinking, but Brian still had a track record of kicking ass in the experimental/boundary-pushing department.

And why is it that the projects that Mike seemed to resist the most (SMiLE, OMR, etc) - the ones that Mike displayed a sour/bitter attitude towards (despite admittedly working on for a time) - just happened to be the ones Brian wound up not finishing?  Could it possibly, just possibly be because Mike felt left out of the creative process that HE felt he was entitled to being a part of, and that his attitude problem stemmed in part from that? (A human reaction, granted, but regrettable all the same). Mike didn't have a magic wand to make Brian finish or not finish a given project, but he could absolutely make *a* difference, and be the tipping point either way.

I feel that if Mike hadn't been the cowriter of Good Vibrations, that Mike's attitude toward the "endless" Good Vibrations sessions might have become equally, or even moreso, OMR-style hostile. And I say that even if Brian hypothetically had another lyricist who had written "hooky" and "relatable" lyrics for the song. Mike would have lost his patience with GV sessions sooner. You know he would have. I just think Mike was much more motivated to be encouraging for Brian to finish difficult projects if he was the lyricist.

Plus, if he didn't feel like writing with Mike, choosing a cover song with already written lyrics may have been a passive aggressive move, as to avoid dealing with hearing lip about another Mike-less collab.

The definition of "so badly" is not yours to make; it's Brian's. You and I do not have a right to say how hurt or how not hurt Brian was allowed to get by Mike (and possibly the Boys') reactions.  Brian is the only guy who gets to say it, and he went out of his way to say it in an interview years later. As far as I recall, excepting the C50-implosion, Brian has rarely talked smack about Mike hurting his (Brian's) feelings in interviews, even though I'm sure there were many instances throughout the years, and I would be surprised if any other band member would come close in that department.

The fact that OMR was mentioned along with the "cocky" and hurtful connotations, as well as Brian's statements on Beautiful Dreamer, were rare windows into Brian honestly and out-and-out saying how he felt about Mike pushing back in the studio. They were strong words and took guts for Brian to say, and I don't think he would have mentioned them if the pushback wasn't very hurtful to him.

The same could probably be said for "Sloop John B"; odd choice for a cover. But it worked. Doesn't mean that a finished OMR would be as good, or would be a SJB-level hit, but I don't think that it being an odd choice is especially relevant, given that Brian turned odd cover choices into gold not long before.

The BIG difference was by 20/20 the whole band was writing/producing material. In '66 they had no choice but to wait for Brian to deliver the goods no matter how long/many takes it took.

While Brian was clearly hurt, OMR was mentioned because he was asked about it surely.

And several of the band members had to face rejection at times (Al possibly the most affected and he was still having songs rejected 40+ years later). That`s part of being in a band. Brian was apparently hurt by the response to Gimme Some Lovin (I think) and Mount Vernon and Fairway as well. That doesn`t make the other band members bad guys though and I certainly wouldn`t say they were more responsive to other band members` songs than they were to Brian`s. In fact, one complaint in the past was that they should have given Dennis`s songs the same reception they gave to Brian`s...

It's true that rejection can be part of being in a band. Undoubtedly. But a few things to note -  let's not fool ourselves into thinking that absolutely anything said/done at anytime is simply par for the course for all people just for "being in a band". Brian surely did/does not handle rejection well, that's undeniable. But he was/is a special case. He has emotional problems, coupled with immense genius, and people in his orbit should not treat him a certain harsh way. They should know better, and learn from experience. At a certain point in his life, he needed to be treated with unconditional love and support, beyond what a "well-adjusted" normal person like Mike may have been able to comprehend. And hey, Mike wasn't a psychology major, and grew up in the 40s with dysfunction in his family. I get it.

It's not a matter of anyone being a "bad" guy, but perhaps it can be said that somebody *may* acted like a jerk in a particular instance with their actions, with regards to the particlar manner in which they lashed out.  Or if one wants to be very understanding, one can say he may have unfortunately acted in a manner that was regrettable, and this may possibly have had unintended consequences. If it means that possibly the world lost out on some Brian compositions which never existed due to Brian retreating, feeling stung by Mike's manner of cocky hurtfulness (and don't just dismiss this as an absolute impossibility), then it's understandable that people are bugged by what may have went down between those guys.

Just because Brian did work on more material in the coming months, that material was largely not up to his usual level. The songs you mentioned (Good Time, I Just Got My Pay, Loop De Loop, When Girls Get Together, Where is She, Soulful Old Man Sunshine, Walkin) have their moments, some more than others. But with a few exceptions, I don't think he was pushing himself to his best at that time (beyond OMR, the arrangement for which was pretty out of this world). Just listen to the insane beauty with the vocals on OMR. It's stunning, and dare I say, the band never again achieved quite this level of true, pure bliss with a Brian-arranged vocal arrangement. It was the end of an era; maybe Brian didn't want to endure another incident like that again. And when he did push himself to dig emotionally deep with Til I Die, well, we all know what happened with the history of that song too... it's a miracle it got finished and released, considering the further pushback Brian received from a particular bandmate, who couldn't possibly be the same one we were talking about a moment ago...  ::)

Regarding Al : Al's material which got rejected probably was pretty mediocre. And I say that as an Al fan. Yeah, he got less respect than he deserved, which continues to this day - in no small part likely because he is not blood family. It's not really comparable to the boundary-pushing material that Brian was working on, which was and remains far more interesting. I know the band was on some level a business, but sometimes the business end has to take a back seat.

I also have lots of respect for Al for having the selflessness and guts to say that Dennis maybe didn't get the respect he deserved. It's called mature hindsight. I'd have heaps more respect if Mike would say even a tiny bit of an equivalent when it comes to regret for maybe being too harsh with his cousin at times, who had emotional illness that Mike himself didn't fully grasp at the time. But Mike doesn't say stuff like that; he's ALWAYS on the defensive. In an alternate universe, an emotionally mature Mike slips in a message like this in an interview, thus lending to some healing; in turn Brian is touched, and this leads Brian to slip in a message in an interview, stating how Mike doesn't always get the level of public respect he deserves a lyricist... and then we'll have world peace. But seriously, except the world peace thing, I think we'd see more healing if Dr. Love did some reaching out, Al-style.

  Moreover, Brian was still perceived by the others as artistically infallible in 1966. That had changed, forever, by the time of OMR and 20/20.

  I like 20/20 well enough, but in no way is it on the same level as SUNFLOWER or SURF'S UP. 20/20, while generally good, has no context as an album. Kind of like the 1965 Presley LP ELVIS FOR EVERYONE - just a collection of cuts.

My guess is it was something very boring and practical.

I can't believe they had lost faith in Brian because they are said to be ready to drop anything for Brian and it is made plain they had already devoted lots of time and money to trying get it where Brian wanted to take it. On the other hand, they called it because of time and money which imo sounds like a decision made because they don't have time or money to waste. They were trying to pull together and finance one way or another and deliver an album at the time. To me something like that would explain how the Boys are both eager to drop anything and invest lots of time and money to recording a Brian project and yet also eventually have to call it on the very same project because of time and money.

Cam, is there anything that the non-Brian members of the group did that you will not defend?

Put another way: Did Mike, Carl, Dennis, Al or Bruce make a single mistake in the band's history? Ever?

According to AGD's site, there was only one day's work on Ol' Man River. So I'm unsure where these "dozens of versions of 'Ol' Man River" came from and how is it when so much has been uncovered that we have ultimately only heard two versions. Is anyone familiar with the 10+ other versions that exist? Is there evidence that more than one day's work went into the track? Were they recording it at Brian's home? And if only one day went into the track and if they were possibly recording it in a home studio, how does that account for the issue of all that time and money being wasted on it?

Are these fair questions?

every album after holland was just a collection of cuts- 15 big ones being old outtakes and covers, MIU outtakes and rewrites, Light album and KTSA old cuts, outtakes and aborted solo cuts..that's wht holland was the bookend of their progressive era. The cohesiveness of album making within the group went to primary focus on touring cuz thats what brought in the $.

Wrinkles.

I think it is fair. There are two dates for the two released versions. Are there more documented sessions? Desper is one of the people who should know I suppose if anybody does. If there were only two dates they must have been marathon sessions.

Good answer.

And in your estimation, people who suffer mental illness should be treated/talked to exactly the same way by those around them as the way emotionally well-adjusted people who do not suffer mental illness should be treated/talked to?

People who suffer mental or emotional problems ideally will be treated in a special, particular, well-thought-out manner, by those around them. Hopefully those around them will be educated and informed in advance, but often times those people may be ignorant of what may be the best way of dealing with conflict with others suffering from such issues. For example, people who suffer from autism will sometimes have caretakers who will know what the specific autistic person's triggers are, and how to tread lightly around those triggers. Brian has a different diagnosis, but some of those rules should probably ideally still apply, on the advice of specialists far more informed than me (and far more informed than anyone who wants to just dismiss this post as hogwash).

The bottom line is that Brian had emotional issues which were bubbling up and manifesting/getting worse, but I don't believe his bandmates at the time were in any way (at that point in time) educated on what would be the best way to deal with a bandleader who had such issues. And yes, drugs complicated things too. I don't think Brian was properly diagnosed at the time, and even if he was, I don't think a team of specialists were around to brief the band on how to healthily, smartly, effectively, and non-hurtfully interact with Brian, especially in situations regarding conflict. To that end, I can't necessarily "blame" anyone for lashing out; they only had their natural instincts and wits to guide them, which sometimes failed them.

I'm sure Brian of today would never have to endure a bandmate of his cockily lashing out and saying hurtful things regarding Brian's artistic decisions. There are multiple reasons for this. Firstly, they aren't in an equal position of power that Mike was in. But also, I feel pretty certain that Melinda knows well the ins and outs of Brian's condition, and I'd be surprised if people who collaborate with Brian (like Joe Thomas) haven't been briefed by her on how to effectively and healthily communicate with Brian, even if artistic bumps in the road come about. Some may brush this off as simply a bunch of yes men, but ultimately, the few people close to Brian are still more educated on Brian's condition than Mike or the Boys ever were in the 60s.

On one hand, this naturally lends itself to a degree of understanding and empathy for Brian's 60s bandmates not fully grasping the do's and don'ts of how to deal with Brian properly. But this doesn't simply excuse everything, nor does it imply that some of their actions and outbursts - particularly when laced with cockiness and hurtfulness- aren't regrettable in hindsight. Because they should be. Why some people find that impossible to admit is something I truly don't understand.

Admitting there's some truth to that doesn't mean anyone has to be pegged as a villain, either.

20/20 is definitely more of a solid album than any post-Holland BBs, except Love You. Right?

I think there`s very few people who would say that it isn`t regrettable if Mike (and the other band members) hurt Brian at times.

I would also say that most could probably see that a negative response to songs like OMR and others could have had a cumulative effect on Brian and, along with commercial failure and of course his mental problems, could have contributed to him losing confidence.

But there is a massive chasm between that and the belief that OMR marked the `end of an era`. That seems a huge exaggeration to me and is something I would never have contemplated before this thread. OMR may be adored by some people, which is fair enough, but I don`t think anyone could objectively say that there is a gulf in the work that he did on this track and the work he did on originals like This Whole World, All I Wanna Do, Til I Die, Add Some Music etc.

To me, if Warner Bros had hypothetically insisted on an album of 12 Brian Wilson originals to follow 20/20 then it could still have been a very impressive album. Something like the track listing below would have had the potential to be better than many of the other Beach Boys albums imo (and even this omits many of the Brian co-written songs of the era).

Side One

Soulful Old Man Sunshine
Add Some Music
This Whole World
Games Two Can Play
Good Time
Cool Cool Water

Side Two

Loop De Loop
Our Sweet Love
Where is She
When Girls Get Together
All I Wanna Do
Til I Die

Definitely and I would say it is far more solid than Love You as well.

  Yes.

Imo mental illness would have nothing to do with it, if Brian thought Mike was too cocky then Mike should apologize. If the band was fed up with OMR then Brian should apologize. I'm going to guess that neither expected the other to apologize and thought of it as the normal back and forth of family and friends in a band together.

Personally I can't nail down why 20/20 doesn't hang together like the next few albums (or previous albums).  It has some very solid songs such as Do It Again, I Can Hear Music, and Time to Get Alone.  It also has a few clunkers (*ahem* All I Want to Do), and a few tunes that are, well....just there (I'll decline examples because I don't want to jack this thread).  

Point is, it might just be these "peaks and valleys" that give 20/20 a rather thrown-together vibe.  Don't get me wrong; I love the album, but I do tend to skip tracks, depending on my mood.  I never skip tracks on Sunflower.

But that's just me....

Even if you think this was totally normal back and forth stuff, you didnt answer my question. As a general rule of thumb, not just necessarily about this OMR incident, how would you answer my question I posed to you above, Cam?

Nobody really considered Brian mentally ill in 1968, did they? Burnt out from 7 years of working too hard, messing with substances he shouldn't have been, yes but a far cry from the wreck he would become. So forgive Mike for not exactly putting on the kids gloves when telling Brian that the band didn't want to work on Ol' Man River any longer.

My answer was mental illness had nothing to do with it imo.

I'm confused Kook, which album do you consider to be the last true Beach Boys album? And which ones are just a collection of cuts?

I thought Brian was briefly institutionalized right at this time, no?

I hereby officially unofficially nominate 20/20 to be re-titled Hodgepodge: A nifty collection of random tracks that hang together in a most un-together way, yet which are together a much better overall album/listening experience than anything released post 1973.   :3d

That was in 1969 - OMR sessions were in summer '68.

Not bad at all  ;D

With liner notes by kookadams!

Understood, Cam - I get that you feel that mental illness in no way played any role in the OMR incident.

But to be clear, the question I am asking you is: outside of the OMR incident, having nothing to do with the OMR incident... do you feel that people who suffer mental illness should be treated/talked to exactly the same way by those around them as the way emotionally well-adjusted people who do not suffer mental illness should be treated/talked to? Yes, no, maybe?

Wouldn`t it be best to steer away from this topic? Some people could take offence at your mentioning Autism in a previous post and the subject of mental illnesses and how they should be treated is far, far too complex and wide-ranging to be met with a yes or no answer.

I`m sure the vast majority of people on the board have had friends, family members and/or colleagues who have suffered from mental health issues. Discussing how they should be treated, even if other people can diagnose whether they are suffering from a mental health illness at all, is very complicated and could only be sensibly discussed in a much more indepth way.

I thought that was in summer/fall of 1968! Right after the OMR sessions.. therefore so little of Brian`s new stuff on 20/20!

I could be wrong. I vaguely remember someone mentioning Brian having a brief spell in one in 1969 and being given some kind of medication which had a noticable effect on his persona. again, I could be wrong.


This.

Well, no offense whatsoever was intended by my mentioning of autism; I personally know family who've been affected by autism, which of course is different then the scenario we are speaking of here... So I don't feel out of line relating personal experiences, as they may tangentially relate to this issue. And I'm aware mental illness is a sensitive topic.

But the point I'm making is that each case of mental illness, regardless of diagnosis, will have factors unique to the affected person, and would likely have its own set of parameters specific to the person and condition. Case-by-case, to be sure. Not simple. Yet I feel some people want to simplify things as to absolve any possibility that any past action by others interacting with Brian could *ever* be considered regrettable, under any circumstances. If you believe, as you've just stated, that simplification is not the appropriate answer (as do I), you cannot possibly think that it's a black and white situation as some people like to make it out to be. Complexity = shades of grey. There's gonna be some maybes.

As you have stated, I agree that it's a complex thing to diagnose and discuss, and I certainly don't pretend to know all the answers as they pertain to this topic, nor should anyone else on this board. But the ultimate thing I'm trying to convey is: the answer to my question which I posed to Cam (which pertains to matters well beyond OMR, yet oddly has only been answered with regards to OMR) cannot possibly be an absolute + steadfast "yes in every possible circumstance". There's no way it can be as simple as that. It's far too complex to get away with saying a blanket "yes" to that, yet I (perhaps wrongly) sense that "yes" will be Cam's answer right around the corner.  

As Mike's Beard correctly pointed out, Brian's condition may not have been diagnosed as early as 1968 (and certainly wasn't fully understood then), and I'm not "blaming" people for not taking the kid gloves approach when they didn't necessarily know all the possible implications of their actions. This is more about what may have been decisions/actions (including, but also beyond OMR) that, in hindsight, when knowing what we know now, might, just might, not necessarily be considered having been the absolutely ideal approach.

Then you`ll know that this is precisely the sort of comment that could cause offence (albeit doubtless unintentionally).

Oops. wrong fucking thread!

Yes, I'm pretty sure this is what Mike Eder confirmed a few years ago on this board but I'm afraid I can't look right at the moment.

To be clear, I answered your question. Mental illness has nothing to do with whether people owe each other an apology, if you owe an apology or are owed an apology it is regardless of mental illness. People should be civil to each other regardless of mental illness.

FWIIW, Carlin puts it as "for a period of time in 1968".

Thanks Cam!

Well, absolutely. People should be civil to each other regardless of mental illness. Though I don't know why you are implying that I am talking about a hypothetical apology. I am not, nor did my question to you say a single iota about an apology.

The entirety of my question consisted of pondering whether or not it might be good for people, when dealing with others who have mental illness, to consider dealing with those people in any remotely different a way compared to how they would deal with others who do not suffer from mental illness. If such a thought should ever in a million years even enter their mind.  

That's the entirety of my question.

I'm asking you *nothing* about apologies, and I'm asking you *nothing* about OMR specifically. It's also *not* a question about what was medically known/diagnosed about Brian's condition circa 1968. I'm well aware that people around Brian were not aware at that time of the extent of his condition, and I am willing to cut them some slack due to that lack of knowledge.

But it doesn't stop me from asking my question to you, Cam, which for some reason still remains unanswered. Maybe it's tough for you to answer and you just want to say you simply "don't know", but you haven't even said that much.

Back on track.   20/20 stands as a strong release and BTW, a damn good deal for the money at the time.    BTW, one of Brian's biggest fans is an internationally known expert on autism and in particular, Asperger's syndrome.   Never heard him suggest Brian was in the spectrum but I have wondered what he thought privately.    does'nt change his high opinion of the man as an artist.....maybe informs his respect and opinion.

Back on Ol' Man River for a minute longer, after it got lost in translation somewhere...

Just to state or re-state the obvious and appeal to logic for a change, a few thoughts.

- Consider the fact that in 1967 a studio was built *inside Brian Wilson's home* with a specific goal to allow *Brian Wilson* easier access to record and produce music for the Beach Boys to release and for Brother Records to release in general...

- Consider the fact that the records which Brian Wilson had produced and had written and recorded sold millions and millions of copies over the previous 5 years leading up to 1967, enough to pay for said studio built inside his home and plenty of cars and fun things for the band members to partake in or give away to a psychotic ex-con and liar and his band of trust-fund-baby STP-addled followers and hangers-on...

- Consider the fact that (according to Carlin) the 1968 failed-disastrous "Maharishi Tour" was Mike's idea and design and brainchild overall to help get the band's fortunes 'back on track', as was the signing and recording of the Pickle Brothers to Brother Records as a viable record selling act to boost the new label...


And it seems absurd, does it not, to have the person who in the same year 1968 cost the band perhaps 6-figures or more thanks to a ridiculously bad idea for a package tour and recording a failed comedy troupe making any accusations at all of "wasting money" or spending too much money on a song, or somehow pointing a finger of blame at the guy who was recording music for the band in the studio which was built in his home to allow him to do that very thing which it seems he was taking too long to do according to the member who put the kibosh on work for that song...

And the whole idea of 'wasting money'...exactly what was the overhead involved in a home studio located and operated in a private home owned and occupied by Mr. and Mrs. Brian Wilson? Seriously, what were the costs associated in booking studio time...*if the studio was located in Brian's house*?

Surely the costs of Brian working on Ol' Man River in his home studio to "the band" as an entity after the fact (i.e. after the bills had been paid) were less than the Maharishi's flower and macrobiotic backstage catering requests from April 1968 or thereabouts, or even the cost of the Manson clan as they helped themselves to Dennis' stuff.

Well the Manson clan stole out of Dennis' own pocket, not the band's and as woefully misguided as Mike's Maharishi Tour was he actually thought it would be a success. But yeah, I get what you are saying in that without studio fees the cost of working over and over again on something would be minimal.

I'd say not only are these studio costs associated with Brian recording this music inside his own house barely even minimal compared to booking commercial studio time, the whole point of "wasting money" as described in this thread is almost a non-issue entirely, if not a ridiculous claim entirely.

And tracing that back even more, it could be said that the same source of income that funded the home studio also funded what was in Dennis' pockets which the Manson clan eventually stole, and that funding was primarily based on the Beach Boys songs Brian produced, arranged, wrote and co-wrote since 1962 which sold millions of copies and made the band international superstars who were in demand both in record sales and appearances. Without those songs and productions (i.e. the records themselves) to sell, there would be no studio, nothing to tour behind, no trappings of wealth which the whole band and their families enjoyed, and surely nothing for those Manson-clan idiots to destroy or steal outright. So the same income that paid for studio gear in 1968 also paid for the car and whatever else Dennis lost to Charlie and his 'followers'.

Maybe not as direct as where the Maharishi tour funding came from and was subsequently lost/wasted, but basically from the same source. Different bucket, same well.

Dennis`s imvolvement with Manson has absolutely nothing to do with this topic imo.

And I doubt money does either. The band tired of working on a song. Call in the Feds...

Really?

Yep. I doubt it was about money. Simple as that. No need to bring Manson into it imo.

was OMR recorded entirely in the home studio?

what a marvelous arrangement and production. the version on the 2-fer is perfect to my ears.
sure it may not have been a huge commercial success had it been released, but a remarkable achievement nonetheless.

regardless of Mike or anyone else's objections, the tape reels reveal a true gem.

Brian+the American songbook=some of the best sh*t ever.

So Mike's suggesting it was a waste of money was as ridiculous as it seems based on the situation at hand? I agree 100%. He was wrong bringing up "wasting" money as he did to explain why he was putting the kibosh on Brian's Ol' Man River efforts since it was nowhere near the amount of time and money the band had wasted on his own ideas to lift the band's fortunes in 1968, ideas that all seemed to do just the opposite of lifting their fortunes.

Manson, I bring up simply because, as I spelled out quite clearly and quite accurately too, the things he and his trust-fund groupies leeched and destroyed from Dennis came from the same well, i.e. the Beach Boys records that sold in the millions. It may have been a different bucket to get the water, but it came from the same well as the spoils enjoyed by the other band members. And around this same time, Manson too was brought into that same studio to record. For those saying Brian recording his music in his home studio was a waste, did they feel likewise about Manson considering all of the peripherals and baggage that came with him?

Well, the only way I can see money playing any role is if they wanted to use the studio for other things at that time which they thought might be more beneficial. But I can`t see that being a major thing.

I would guess that time was a much bigger factor. I doubt they saw a cover of Ol` Man River as that big a deal and would be amazed that we are discussing it 47 years later.  :)

It seems Brian seemed to think it was a pretty big deal based on the quote posted from the book:  :)

Indeed. But I don`t think any of the other members would have felt the same way and understandably so.

They did have the expense of the Maha tour and the April tour and the SMiLE recordings (not done in the home studio) all in a row and I don't know what the expenses for the group in their home studio were but apparently they felt they were enough. Although according to the book, after complaining they weren't going to spend more time and money on OMR, in the next page or so they are spending more time and money on another version of OMR.

But that was Dennis' own personal money and belongings the Family helped themselves to. If they'd signed Manson to Brother and gave him an open expenses account on Brother's dime then he would be a legimate example of the band wasting cash.
On a side note I'd like to add that with a bit of editing the version of Ol' Man River on the Friends/2020 twofer could easily have been included on 20/20. Maybe Brian was repeating the mistakes of Smile a little too close for comfort and was scrapping take after perfectly usable take of OMR? Pure conjecture on my part I know but that could be vaild reason for the band calling time on the song.

20/20 is up there with my top 5 favorite Beach Boys albums of all time (which would include Pet Sounds, Sunflower, BB Today and Summer Days..). When I first heard it way back when, I had no idea that "Our Prayer" and "Cabinessence" had their genesis in SMiLE so my feeling weren't tainted by anything that might have been. I just assumed they were more strong contributions from Brian like "I Went To Sleep" and "Time To Get Alone". I have no issues with anything on the album, not even Dennis' extracurricular activities on the fade of AIWTD or the dreaded NLNTL.
 I suppose you could improve on it a little, at least cosmetically, by substituting the MIC stereo mix of "Do It Again" and the stereo single mix of "Cotton Fields" (and I have and it sounds great!). Had the group managed to cobble together an acceptable version of "Soulful Old Man Sunshine" and opened the album with that instead of "Do It Again", this would have knocked a lot of people's socks off.

I'm surprised to see all this discussion about OMR. I'm fine with Ol' Man River as a bonus track on a CD. It's always struck me as one of Brian's less successful vocal arrangements of an old chestnut compared to something like "The Lord's Prayer" and it's never been a favorite song by anybody outside of Paul Robeson or Stan Freberg's parody (I know Sinatra's version is considered a classic and nobody's a bigger Frank-phile than me but I can't get the nauseating image of Frank descending from the clouds like an angel in the film "Till The Clouds Roll By" when I hear his version. Talk about a wacky context!) Maybe in an alternate universe where SMiLE has been released and "Our Prayer" and "Cabinessence" have already come out, it would've fit. As such, a great bonus cut but there were better things out there (like "Soulful..." and it's non-completion/release which is one of the most stupid decisions the group ever made) 

When TLOS came out the various renditions of the title track reminded me a lot of OMR somehow. Same goes for Plenty of Nothing from the Gershwin album. I've always loved OMR and in the context of these newer recordings it suddenly made even more sense than it had before. I think Brian was probably up to something very specific with OMR but somehow failed to convince the other guys. Too bad!

Listening to 20/20 yesterday (and, I must admit, enjoying its hodgepodginess) it struck me that what all recent BW/BB recordings lack is quirkiness, in its best sense. It's certainly there on 20/20----string lines disappearing into the stratosphere, vocals that leap out at you, a guitar solo that leaps out at you, Dennis's muffled vocals on "Cabinessence"... I miss that in the later stuff.     

Hodgepodge or not 20/20 was a solid album. Post-holland BBs was ALL hodgepodge, MIU-light album-KTSA and 15big ones were all very poor and other than to us hardcore BBs zealots those albums were weak collections and had no flow whatsoever, 20/20 was/is a rockin album even if it was a collection and not proper lp.