Hodgepodge

[Cam Mott]

My guess is it was something very boring and practical.

I can't believe they had lost faith in Brian because they are said to be ready to drop anything for Brian and it is made plain they had already devoted lots of time and money to trying get it where Brian wanted to take it. On the other hand, they called it because of time and money which imo sounds like a decision made because they don't have time or money to waste. They were trying to pull together and finance one way or another and deliver an album at the time. To me something like that would explain how the Boys are both eager to drop anything and invest lots of time and money to recording a Brian project and yet also eventually have to call it on the very same project because of time and money.

[Wirestone]

Cam, is there anything that the non-Brian members of the group did that you will not defend?

Put another way: Did Mike, Carl, Dennis, Al or Bruce make a single mistake in the band's history? Ever?

[Chocolate Shake Man]

According to AGD's site, there was only one day's work on Ol' Man River. So I'm unsure where these "dozens of versions of 'Ol' Man River" came from and how is it when so much has been uncovered that we have ultimately only heard two versions. Is anyone familiar with the 10+ other versions that exist? Is there evidence that more than one day's work went into the track? Were they recording it at Brian's home? And if only one day went into the track and if they were possibly recording it in a home studio, how does that account for the issue of all that time and money being wasted on it?

Are these fair questions?

[kookadams]

The BIG difference was by 20/20 the whole band was writing/producing material. In '66 they had no choice but to wait for Brian to deliver the goods no matter how long/many takes it took.

  Moreover, Brian was still perceived by the others as artistically infallible in 1966. That had changed, forever, by the time of OMR and 20/20.

  I like 20/20 well enough, but in no way is it on the same level as SUNFLOWER or SURF'S UP. 20/20, while generally good, has no context as an album. Kind of like the 1965 Presley LP ELVIS FOR EVERYONE - just a collection of cuts.

every album after holland was just a collection of cuts- 15 big ones being old outtakes and covers, MIU outtakes and rewrites, Light album and KTSA old cuts, outtakes and aborted solo cuts..that's wht holland was the bookend of their progressive era. The cohesiveness of album making within the group went to primary focus on touring cuz thats what brought in the $.

[Cam Mott]

Cam, is there anything that the non-Brian members of the group did that you will not defend?

Put another way: Did Mike, Carl, Dennis, Al or Bruce make a single mistake in the band's history? Ever?

Wrinkles.

[Cam Mott]

According to AGD's site, there was only one day's work on Ol' Man River. So I'm unsure where these "dozens of versions of 'Ol' Man River" came from and how is it when so much has been uncovered that we have ultimately only heard two versions. Is anyone familiar with the 10+ other versions that exist? Is there evidence that more than one day's work went into the track? Were they recording it at Brian's home? And if only one day went into the track and if they were possibly recording it in a home studio, how does that account for the issue of all that time and money being wasted on it?

Are these fair questions?

I think it is fair. There are two dates for the two released versions. Are there more documented sessions? Desper is one of the people who should know I suppose if anybody does. If there were only two dates they must have been marathon sessions.

[rogerlancelot]

Cam, is there anything that the non-Brian members of the group did that you will not defend?

Put another way: Did Mike, Carl, Dennis, Al or Bruce make a single mistake in the band's history? Ever?

Wrinkles.

Good answer.

[CenturyDeprived]

Cam, is there anything that the non-Brian members of the group did that you will not defend?

Put another way: Did Mike, Carl, Dennis, Al or Bruce make a single mistake in the band's history? Ever?

Wrinkles.

And in your estimation, people who suffer mental illness should be treated/talked to exactly the same way by those around them as the way emotionally well-adjusted people who do not suffer mental illness should be treated/talked to?

[CenturyDeprived]

People who suffer mental or emotional problems ideally will be treated in a special, particular, well-thought-out manner, by those around them. Hopefully those around them will be educated and informed in advance, but often times those people may be ignorant of what may be the best way of dealing with conflict with others suffering from such issues. For example, people who suffer from autism will sometimes have caretakers who will know what the specific autistic person's triggers are, and how to tread lightly around those triggers. Brian has a different diagnosis, but some of those rules should probably ideally still apply, on the advice of specialists far more informed than me (and far more informed than anyone who wants to just dismiss this post as hogwash).

The bottom line is that Brian had emotional issues which were bubbling up and manifesting/getting worse, but I don't believe his bandmates at the time were in any way (at that point in time) educated on what would be the best way to deal with a bandleader who had such issues. And yes, drugs complicated things too. I don't think Brian was properly diagnosed at the time, and even if he was, I don't think a team of specialists were around to brief the band on how to healthily, smartly, effectively, and non-hurtfully interact with Brian, especially in situations regarding conflict. To that end, I can't necessarily "blame" anyone for lashing out; they only had their natural instincts and wits to guide them, which sometimes failed them.

I'm sure Brian of today would never have to endure a bandmate of his cockily lashing out and saying hurtful things regarding Brian's artistic decisions. There are multiple reasons for this. Firstly, they aren't in an equal position of power that Mike was in. But also, I feel pretty certain that Melinda knows well the ins and outs of Brian's condition, and I'd be surprised if people who collaborate with Brian (like Joe Thomas) haven't been briefed by her on how to effectively and healthily communicate with Brian, even if artistic bumps in the road come about. Some may brush this off as simply a bunch of yes men, but ultimately, the few people close to Brian are still more educated on Brian's condition than Mike or the Boys ever were in the 60s.

On one hand, this naturally lends itself to a degree of understanding and empathy for Brian's 60s bandmates not fully grasping the do's and don'ts of how to deal with Brian properly. But this doesn't simply excuse everything, nor does it imply that some of their actions and outbursts - particularly when laced with cockiness and hurtfulness- aren't regrettable in hindsight. Because they should be. Why some people find that impossible to admit is something I truly don't understand.

Admitting there's some truth to that doesn't mean anyone has to be pegged as a villain, either.

[kookadams]

20/20 is definitely more of a solid album than any post-Holland BBs, except Love You. Right?

[Nicko1234]

People who suffer mental or emotional problems ideally will be treated in a special, particular, well-thought-out manner, by those around them. Hopefully those around them will be educated and informed in advance, but often times those people may be ignorant of what may be the best way of dealing with conflict with others suffering from such issues. For example, people who suffer from autism will sometimes have caretakers who will know what the specific autistic person's triggers are, and how to tread lightly around those triggers. Brian has a different diagnosis, but some of those rules should probably ideally still apply, on the advice of specialists far more informed than me (and far more informed than anyone who wants to just dismiss this post as hogwash).

The bottom line is that Brian had emotional issues which were bubbling up and manifesting/getting worse, but I don't believe his bandmates at the time were in any way (at that point in time) educated on what would be the best way to deal with a bandleader who had such issues. And yes, drugs complicated things too. I don't think Brian was properly diagnosed at the time, and even if he was, I don't think a team of specialists were around to brief the band on how to healthily, smartly, effectively, and non-hurtfully interact with Brian, especially in situations regarding conflict. To that end, I can't necessarily "blame" anyone for lashing out; they only had their natural instincts and wits to guide them, which sometimes failed them.

I'm sure Brian of today would never have to endure a bandmate of his cockily lashing out and saying hurtful things regarding Brian's artistic decisions. There are multiple reasons for this. Firstly, they aren't in an equal position of power that Mike was in. But also, I feel pretty certain that Melinda knows well the ins and outs of Brian's condition, and I'd be surprised if people who collaborate with Brian (like Joe Thomas) haven't been briefed by her on how to effectively and healthily communicate with Brian, even if artistic bumps in the road come about. Some may brush this off as simply a bunch of yes men, but ultimately, the few people close to Brian are still more educated on Brian's condition than Mike or the Boys ever were in the 60s.

On one hand, this naturally lends itself to a degree of understanding and empathy for Brian's 60s bandmates not fully grasping the do's and don'ts of how to deal with Brian properly. But this doesn't simply excuse everything, nor does it imply that some of their actions and outbursts - particularly when laced with cockiness and hurtfulness- aren't regrettable in hindsight. Because they should be. Why some people find that impossible to admit is something I truly don't understand.

Admitting there's some truth to that doesn't mean anyone has to be pegged as a villain, either.

I think there`s very few people who would say that it isn`t regrettable if Mike (and the other band members) hurt Brian at times.

I would also say that most could probably see that a negative response to songs like OMR and others could have had a cumulative effect on Brian and, along with commercial failure and of course his mental problems, could have contributed to him losing confidence.

But there is a massive chasm between that and the belief that OMR marked the `end of an era`. That seems a huge exaggeration to me and is something I would never have contemplated before this thread. OMR may be adored by some people, which is fair enough, but I don`t think anyone could objectively say that there is a gulf in the work that he did on this track and the work he did on originals like This Whole World, All I Wanna Do, Til I Die, Add Some Music etc.

To me, if Warner Bros had hypothetically insisted on an album of 12 Brian Wilson originals to follow 20/20 then it could still have been a very impressive album. Something like the track listing below would have had the potential to be better than many of the other Beach Boys albums imo (and even this omits many of the Brian co-written songs of the era).

Side One

Soulful Old Man Sunshine
Add Some Music
This Whole World
Games Two Can Play
Good Time
Cool Cool Water

Side Two

Loop De Loop
Our Sweet Love
Where is She
When Girls Get Together
All I Wanna Do
Til I Die

[Nicko1234]

20/20 is definitely more of a solid album than any post-Holland BBs, except Love You. Right?

Definitely and I would say it is far more solid than Love You as well.

[Moon Dawg]

20/20 is definitely more of a solid album than any post-Holland BBs, except Love You. Right?

  Yes.

[Cam Mott]

Cam, is there anything that the non-Brian members of the group did that you will not defend?

Put another way: Did Mike, Carl, Dennis, Al or Bruce make a single mistake in the band's history? Ever?

Wrinkles.

And in your estimation, people who suffer mental illness should be treated/talked to exactly the same way by those around them as the way emotionally well-adjusted people who do not suffer mental illness should be treated/talked to?

Imo mental illness would have nothing to do with it, if Brian thought Mike was too cocky then Mike should apologize. If the band was fed up with OMR then Brian should apologize. I'm going to guess that neither expected the other to apologize and thought of it as the normal back and forth of family and friends in a band together.

[sockittome]

Personally I can't nail down why 20/20 doesn't hang together like the next few albums (or previous albums).  It has some very solid songs such as Do It Again, I Can Hear Music, and Time to Get Alone.  It also has a few clunkers (*ahem* All I Want to Do), and a few tunes that are, well....just there (I'll decline examples because I don't want to jack this thread).  

Point is, it might just be these "peaks and valleys" that give 20/20 a rather thrown-together vibe.  Don't get me wrong; I love the album, but I do tend to skip tracks, depending on my mood.  I never skip tracks on Sunflower.

But that's just me....

[CenturyDeprived]

Cam, is there anything that the non-Brian members of the group did that you will not defend?

Put another way: Did Mike, Carl, Dennis, Al or Bruce make a single mistake in the band's history? Ever?

Wrinkles.

And in your estimation, people who suffer mental illness should be treated/talked to exactly the same way by those around them as the way emotionally well-adjusted people who do not suffer mental illness should be treated/talked to?

Imo mental illness would have nothing to do with it, if Brian thought Mike was too cocky then Mike should apologize. If the band was fed up with OMR then Brian should apologize. I'm going to guess that neither expected the other to apologize and thought of it as the normal back and forth of family and friends in a band together.

Even if you think this was totally normal back and forth stuff, you didnt answer my question. As a general rule of thumb, not just necessarily about this OMR incident, how would you answer my question I posed to you above, Cam?

[Mike's Beard]

Nobody really considered Brian mentally ill in 1968, did they? Burnt out from 7 years of working too hard, messing with substances he shouldn't have been, yes but a far cry from the wreck he would become. So forgive Mike for not exactly putting on the kids gloves when telling Brian that the band didn't want to work on Ol' Man River any longer.

[Cam Mott]

Cam, is there anything that the non-Brian members of the group did that you will not defend?

Put another way: Did Mike, Carl, Dennis, Al or Bruce make a single mistake in the band's history? Ever?

Wrinkles.

And in your estimation, people who suffer mental illness should be treated/talked to exactly the same way by those around them as the way emotionally well-adjusted people who do not suffer mental illness should be treated/talked to?

Imo mental illness would have nothing to do with it, if Brian thought Mike was too cocky then Mike should apologize. If the band was fed up with OMR then Brian should apologize. I'm going to guess that neither expected the other to apologize and thought of it as the normal back and forth of family and friends in a band together.

Even if you think this was totally normal back and forth stuff, you didnt answer my question. As a general rule of thumb, not just necessarily about this OMR incident, how would you answer my question I posed to you above, Cam?

My answer was mental illness had nothing to do with it imo.

[startBBtoday]

The BIG difference was by 20/20 the whole band was writing/producing material. In '66 they had no choice but to wait for Brian to deliver the goods no matter how long/many takes it took.

  Moreover, Brian was still perceived by the others as artistically infallible in 1966. That had changed, forever, by the time of OMR and 20/20.

  I like 20/20 well enough, but in no way is it on the same level as SUNFLOWER or SURF'S UP. 20/20, while generally good, has no context as an album. Kind of like the 1965 Presley LP ELVIS FOR EVERYONE - just a collection of cuts.

every album after holland was just a collection of cuts- 15 big ones being old outtakes and covers, MIU outtakes and rewrites, Light album and KTSA old cuts, outtakes and aborted solo cuts..that's wht holland was the bookend of their progressive era. The cohesiveness of album making within the group went to primary focus on touring cuz thats what brought in the $.

20/20 is definitely a collection, same with Light album and Keepin the summer alive, only dif is that 20/20 is a great comp.

When ya really break it down Holland really was the last legitimate BBs album til the self-titled over a decade later; 15 big ones being covers and outtakes from prior yrs, Love You being Brian's solo, MIU being older outtakes and rewrites, and same w LA and KTSA with once again older outtakes and solo tracks from aborted solo sessions (dennis, carl & mike).

(I apologize for this being typed in paragraph format, I dont have a functioning computer so I use the phone). Ive tried explaining it before but its gotten misconstrued so I went thru the albums, did the research on several perspectives and this is what I compiled: #1 / 15 big ones- after acknowledging the covers outta the originals, Its ok from the 74 caribou sessions, had to phone ya remade from what brian made for spring in 72, everyones in love with you a mike love solo cut, susie cincinnati from the sunflower sessions, that same song and back home brian wrote in 63,4...#2 love you- brian wilson solo album w the BB name tacked on contractually. #3 m.I.u. album: tomboy and my diane outtakes from 76 adult.child, kona coast, bells of paris etc from the aborted xmas album, peggy sue and come go w me from the 15big ones sessions, and the remainder quickly thrown together wilson\love cuts...#4 light album- good timin from 74 caribou sessions, love surrounds me and baby blue outtakes from dennis' nixed second lp, sumahama a solo mike love cut, here comes the night from wild honey transformed into a horrid disco number, full sail-angel come home-goin south early carl solo cuts...#5 keepin the summer alive- the title track and heartache more early carl solo, when girls get together from the sunflower sessions, endless harmony bruce wrote prior to holland as ten yrs of harmony, goin on adapted from all dressed up for school from 64..

Ive seen ALOT of misconceptions of the beach boys solid work vs the mediocrity following Holland w the exception of Love You. With 15 big ones being a mix of covers and old rehashed outtakes and Love You being BW solo w the BB name slapped on it... MIU, light album and keepin the summer alive werent just poor albums, they had no hit singles, hardly anything regarded as rockNroll and to sum it up those albums have no substantial historical value whatsoever...yet Surfer Girl-All Summer Long-Summer Days-Pet Sounds-Smiley Smile-Sunflower were/are the greatest and most substantial output by any band in history...and fifty yrs after their debut they put out a brand new lp that almost tops the chart..milestone to say the least.

Jus like 20/20, and MIU the Light album is a collection of odds&ends, outtakes etc.

Too much 'iffy' stuff ahead of Holland.  Lists are just that.  Lists.  Unless you're going grocery shopping...they're pretty much useless.

true. I say its more than evident that Holland was their last group effort...15 big ones being a mix of covers and either older tracks and/or previously recorded songs,, Love You was Brians album w the groups name contractually placed on it, and MIU, Light album and KTSA were hodgepodges of older songs, aborted solo leftovers etc.

I'm confused Kook, which album do you consider to be the last true Beach Boys album? And which ones are just a collection of cuts?

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Nobody really considered Brian mentally ill in 1968, did they? Burnt out from 7 years of working too hard, messing with substances he shouldn't have been, yes but a far cry from the wreck he would become. So forgive Mike for not exactly putting on the kids gloves when telling Brian that the band didn't want to work on Ol' Man River any longer.

I thought Brian was briefly institutionalized right at this time, no?

[SenorPotatoHead]

I hereby officially unofficially nominate 20/20 to be re-titled Hodgepodge: A nifty collection of random tracks that hang together in a most un-together way, yet which are together a much better overall album/listening experience than anything released post 1973.   

[Mike's Beard]

Nobody really considered Brian mentally ill in 1968, did they? Burnt out from 7 years of working too hard, messing with substances he shouldn't have been, yes but a far cry from the wreck he would become. So forgive Mike for not exactly putting on the kids gloves when telling Brian that the band didn't want to work on Ol' Man River any longer.

I thought Brian was briefly institutionalized right at this time, no?

That was in 1969 - OMR sessions were in summer '68.

[Rocket]

I hereby officially unofficially nominate 20/20 to be re-titled Hodgepodge: A nifty collection of random tracks that hang together in a most un-together way, yet which are together a much better overall album/listening experience than anything released post 1973.   

Not bad at all 

[wantsomecorn]

I hereby officially unofficially nominate 20/20 to be re-titled Hodgepodge: A nifty collection of random tracks that hang together in a most un-together way, yet which are together a much better overall album/listening experience than anything released post 1973.   

With liner notes by kookadams!

[CenturyDeprived]

Cam, is there anything that the non-Brian members of the group did that you will not defend?

Put another way: Did Mike, Carl, Dennis, Al or Bruce make a single mistake in the band's history? Ever?

Wrinkles.

And in your estimation, people who suffer mental illness should be treated/talked to exactly the same way by those around them as the way emotionally well-adjusted people who do not suffer mental illness should be treated/talked to?

Imo mental illness would have nothing to do with it, if Brian thought Mike was too cocky then Mike should apologize. If the band was fed up with OMR then Brian should apologize. I'm going to guess that neither expected the other to apologize and thought of it as the normal back and forth of family and friends in a band together.

Even if you think this was totally normal back and forth stuff, you didnt answer my question. As a general rule of thumb, not just necessarily about this OMR incident, how would you answer my question I posed to you above, Cam?

My answer was mental illness had nothing to do with it imo.

Understood, Cam - I get that you feel that mental illness in no way played any role in the OMR incident.

But to be clear, the question I am asking you is: outside of the OMR incident, having nothing to do with the OMR incident... do you feel that people who suffer mental illness should be treated/talked to exactly the same way by those around them as the way emotionally well-adjusted people who do not suffer mental illness should be treated/talked to? Yes, no, maybe?