The Smiley Smile Message Board

I hope this thread gets some action, one of my alltime favorite topics. Sadly there is no way
to actually resolve the discussion, because it's something that didin't happen.

Your thoughts, opinions, how could it have been done? should it have been.
Here is my view, (after an enormous amount of study and thought)

Beatles fans were on a cloud in 1994/95, Two new Beatles songs were coming, a tv mini series
documentary, with all three living Beatles, and 20 previously unreleased songs from the sixties
plus numerous, demos, alternate versions of famous songs, live recordings and dialogue, all on
six shiny new cds! As we all know it was a huge commercial success, got younger folks interested
in the beatles, made the old fans happy, and unlocked the vaults, there were also two maxi singles
for the new songs, featuring additional 60's B sides not included on the three double albums. There was
also footage of part of a day long jam featuring the three of them, busking through early fifties songs
from their Hamburg, Liverpool repetoire, and some very early Beatle songs, (sadly the Beatle originals
were cut from the film)


In addition to all of that, the Threetles considered doing an entire new album. Sadly after only four new
songs were recorded, Harrison pulled the plug. His reason was without John Lennon being there, however
nice it might be, the Beatles were the four of them, and without John, there was only three of them. So opinion
jhas always been split with people who agree with that, and peope who wish they had gone ahead and done
the album.

Now I personally believe, Harrison still harbored some resentment against Paul McCartney and that was a part of
his decision making, (i;m not gonna play second fiddle to P
They did consider this album, they did cut four tracks, Three Lennon demos, and one new McCartney/.Harrison song.
so how would it, or should it have gone down, here is my view.

Lennon certainly needed to be involved, and he was, they cut three Lennon songs, the best of what Yoko had given them
and certainly, they weren't the Best Lennon songs ever, and his vocal sound wasn;t so hot, but damm! they did it!

OK the three Lennon songs were all gonna be on this album, this is how Lennon would be represented, so thats three
tracks, now what of the rest? NO way was Harrison going to agree to five new Paul songs, one Harrison song, and one
Ringo song, no way, clearly Harrison would never agree. So there are two choices, Songwriting parity, or McCartney and
Harrison were gonna have to write together as a team. Well thats more intimate, takes more of a bond and commitment, and
Harrison and McCartney had issues with each other. In fact while working on the song they cowrote, thats when they had an
argument and stopped recording new stuff, supposedly according to the engineers or other witness'es they argued about the
structure or arrangement of the song itself, McCartney believing the song should be recorded a certain way, and Harrison disagreeing.



So as I see it, this is what they could have done, the three Lennon songs, including some new composing for Lennons
third song Now and then, which needed some major editing and writing of lyrics for the verse, so Lennon sings lead on the chorus
and bridge, and McCartney Harrison sing the verses, then they finish the one co-write All for Love thats four songs. McCartney
and Harrison write one song each, and the three of them write one song for Ringo, that gives them seven songs.  and Lennon
is inlcuded on at least three. Harrison and McCartney have songwriting parity, which Harrison would have insisted on I believe.
And then maybe they do either one or two covers from their early repetoire,   songs they never got around to recordingg and
that gives them either eight or nine songs, and I say they stop there. They want to be mindful Lennon is included as much as possible
and they need songwriting parity, and Harrison is reluctant to write with Macca, but they manage to write the one for Ringo, and
the other one they already had ging, one new song each, the cover song(s), maybe they fly in a Lennon guitar part, or spoken word
somewhere and build a track around one of his poems or something like that, the way the Doors did with Morrison.


So in this scenario I have laid out, which I think is practical, and fits the facts as we know them. They issue a disc four,  special
disc of new Beatles music, with all the new songs, but it's a little short for an album. so they pad the album ot with a special disc two
of three or four videos Free As A Bird and Real Love and one or two more videos they shoot, and somehow they pad the rest of the album
out with a few more outtakes, or spoken word by John Lennon, or maybe the McCartney contribution is kind of a long minisuite, (stretching
there) somehow they pad the eight or nine cuts. and release it as either the new Beatles album, or the new beatles, with additional
music by Paul George And Ringo, maybe they do an intrumental just to make it longer. Remember, in my scenario, Harrison is very touchy
about playing second fiddle or having McCartney write the bulk of the songs, and they don't want too many tracks that don't feature Lennon,
sure Harrison and McCartney could write three songs each, and they could do two Ringo tunes, Fine by me, but then you have a dozen songs
or more, and Lennon is only on three, thats why I think one new song each, the one cowrite by Paul and George, and maybe one cover version
a short album, because Lennon can only be represented so much so thats my scenario, of what could have happened, given the politics, and realities
of the circumstances.

I really really wish they had done that, or been able to get along well enough, where McCartney/Harrison could have written six or eight songs
together, along with one or two for Ringo and the three Lennon cuts, but they were too prickly for that, and so I think my scenario is more sensitive
to Harrisons point of view, and keeping it short cause Lennon is under represented...

How can you see it happening, do you wish they had done it? what other ways could they have gone about it, and remember Jeff Lynne
was producing, McCartney wanted George Martin, but on of Harrison's conditions, was that Lynne be co producer, and remember Ringo
was gonna get if not parity, a song or two also,

SO please tell me how it could have gone down, why didin't it. don't you wish you had that last album on your shelf right now?

Lets chat about it.

I know for me personally, I am still very unhappy they chose not to do it, because of Harrison's objections, I am glad they
recorded the four songs, and I would at least like them to release those last two songs, particularly the  third Lennon song
Now an Then, because according to two Beatle engineers, and others, McCartney finished that song about two or three years
ago, with all the editing, and overdubs, and its' been sitting on his shelf, for a couple years, for no reason, that I can understand.
I do unerstand, that when those sessions took place, and McCartney finished the record, there was an enormous amount
of emotion, curiosity, and joy on the part of the engineers, who strongly believed it should and would be heard.

I was always sad the third song didn't come out. I felt like it made the third volume of the Anthology seem incomplete.

But a new album? Produced by Jeff Lynne? Somehow, even if they had considered it more seriously, or written together more, or gotten along better, I just can't see it.

The Beatles were one group -- one group among so many -- that managed to wrap things up exactly right. You don't get better than the second side of Abbey Road. Anything else is unnecessary.

Has this or these songs seen the light of day. free as a bird and Real love are the only ones I have heard.

"Now and Then" wasn't the only song that was worked on by the three Beatles and considered for Anthology 3. A song called "Grow Old With Me" was also worked on. Another song written by Paul and George called "All for Love", was also recorded by the three Beatles at those sessions but wasn't finished.  

Macca says he wants to complete "Now and Then" with Ringo and it'll probably come out one of these days.

I've never heard about them wanting to do a whole album. I think Paul McCartney might have gone along with that. He seemed to have wanted some type of reunion. I have heard/read that the reason that there was no third song is because George and Paul couldn't get along. They allegedly tried to write a song together, but it ended in arguments. The other songs they allegedly worked on was Grow Old With Me(a Lennon demo), Now and Then(a GREAT Lennon demo)*, and an original song written by Paul and George. I think that the surviving three could have put together a pretty decent album. Personally, I think it would have been kind of morbid if they had tried to use John's voice on other songs though.

*The demo of Now and Then is in rough sound quality. There is a fair amount of hiss and distortion. There is also a rather annoying buzzing sound throughout the recording. The story goes that they tried to clean up the recording, but the technology of the time(1994-95) couldn't fix the buzzing sound, and the tape was deemed unusable.

Sorry Mikie, I didn't realise that you beat me to it.  ;D

Paul has always been gung ho Beatles, you can see it in the Anthology interviews, where he is always "up", always promoting his role in the group. George's feelings were much more mixed. After hanging out with Dylan and The Band, it was a drag to go back to the Fabs and be treated like the little kid brother. As a result, we got ATMP. Do you think this changed the way John and Paul looked at George? I doubt it. So I can't see the reunited Fabs working together for long. The way they did it was just right, with the exception of no new song for the third Anthology album. And I would've been fine if the third song was solely a creation of Macca/Harry/Starkey. Wouldn't be the first time there was a Beatles track with only 2 or 3 Beatles on it.

If the story of Now and Then being abanoned by a buzzing tape with a hum, was ever true in the first place, its not true now. for several years clean
copies with no hiss, buzz or hum have circulated on the internet. I offered to send clean copies I found on the internet to both Yoko Ono and Mark Hudson, Both
told me they were certain they already had the cleanest tapes, but gave me addresses to mail to their engineers just in case. which I did.

Now and Then,  was supposedly finished about 2-3 years ago, according to two of the original Beatles engineers, by McCartney at his Mill studio.
One engineer worked on some of the sessions, the other one heard the finished recording afterwards, both engineers were very excited and awed
and these were Beatles engineers! So why this finished track just sits, for 2-3 years makes no sense to me, McCartney also made many hi proifile


public remarks about releasing Carnival of Light in 2008. Saying he had a master copy of this beatles 67 session at home,

Yep, "Now & Then" is out there....... 

The 22-27 minute jam of Healter Skelter could have been released on Anthology but George Martin deemed it "boring".

Some people who've heard Carnival of Light say it isn't as great as it's been hyped up to be.

There is also the Jackie Lomax Sour Milk Sea, with a Harrison guide vocal on the multitracks they could use to get
a great lost white album beatles song, (except for Lennon) or if they have too, they can pull Harrisons demo vocal
from Esher, and adapt it with protools to fit the Lomax backing track with Ringo and McCartney and Clapton


A mix of Christmas time is here again, with just the song, and not all the talking would be great, and  maybe the All For Love
song, (after all 3 days is a lot of time) has enough on their to use.    Maybe Carnival of Light isin't that great, just think of a
McCartney version of Revolution nine,,,, besides the original mix, maybe a five minute mix of the most interesting bits would
cool,

I dont think there is enough money in just expanding the Anthology   "now with added bonus tracks"    My thought is,  if they have
maybe four new tracks of quality, say Now and Then, All For Love, Carnival Of Light and Sour Milk Sea, they pair those along with
Free AS A Bird, and Real Love, (remixed with the higher fidelity demo that surfaced, cleaner sound on Lennons voice) and the so
called Sessions songs, all remixed in the best possible fidelity,, most of the sessions songs wefre used on Anthology, but a revived
sessions album with the inclusion of Free AS a Bird, Real Love, and four or five of the last unknown songs, that could really sell


An album like that would give you two things, one it would have a few new tracks, the last new tracks,  and it would fix the botched

job of bad mixes on the ANthology, and second it would collect on one album all the remaining studio tracks, that arent found on
either the regular albums, or the past masters, it would allow you to have every song, if you had the regular canon, the past masters
and  this new album. Then any remaining alternate takes like Helter Skelter 27 min, could be offered as the bonus tracks for Anthology
one day, that would become more the alternate takes album, and the new album would become more the sessions unreleased songs
album. If that convoluted explanation makes sense to anyone.

If they were to release Now and Then, I'd rather it be the work in progress 1994-95 version. Having Paul and Ringo go into the studio with some isolated guitar and vocals from George is even more extreme than what they did with Lennon's demo's.

RINGO 1973 is about the closest we will ever get to a true Beatles reunion; and what a great reunion it was. I love that album.

Well that's true and yet it isin't. True six of the ten tracks feature a second beatle. They all appear on the (1973 Ringo LP)
one track, the opening number "I'm The Greatest features Ringo, Lennon on harmony vocal and piano, and Harrison on guitar
along with Klaus Voorman on Bass, and Billy Preston on Organ, Richard Perry's production is somewhat Beatlesque.

However, Free As A Bird, Real Love, Now and Then and All For Love, are the actual reunion, featuring all four Beatles on tape
and three in the flesh, they also recorded, Blue Moon Of Kentucky, Baby What You Want Me To Do, Raunchy, Aint She sweet
and Thinking of Linking, all live at Harrisons house, and in the film.

I would say, that was the reunion......

As for Now and Then, I personally prefer to reserve judgement until I hear it, apparently the Beatle engineers who worked on
and or heard it, were quite impressed, and emotionally moved. So who are we to dispute that before hearing it.

Also there was the song, All Those Years ago, which features, Harrison, Starr and McCartney on the recording, and also George
Martin and Geoff Emerick were in attendence, possibly Martin had something to do with refining that Beatley string line.

An interesting caveat to that "All Those Years ago" session, in recent years we have learned, and MCCartney has admitted on the
record, that, originally Harrison was supposed to play on McCartney's song "wanderlust" from the Tug Of War sessions, which would
in fact have made the Tug Of War album a Threetles reunion of sorts, and George Martin and Geoff Emerick, but Harrison demurred
and declined to play on Wanderlust, after McCartney sang his parts on "all Those Years Ago" which of course was a song about
John Lennon, recorded shortly after Lennon's death in tribute. The track had been cut earlier with Ringo, but the lyrics were
written after Lennon's death.

Please note I said "closest thing to a true reunion"... I understand what you are saying. But there is a difference between an album which all four LIVING members had a hand in making as opposed to 2 songs recorded by a man who had been dead and overdubbed decades later by his mates. You can't use the argument that a b and C play tracks w,x, and y; where as c and d only played on track z therefore it was not really a reunion - simply because that's how many actual Beatles albums were made. So....?

Of all The Beatles holy grails (The 27 minute "Helter Skelter", "Carnival Of Light", scores of alternate versions of familiar tracks), it is the music that was recorded during the 1994/1995 reunion sessions which I believe should hold the most interest to fans.  While Mark Lewisohn's groundbreaking book "The Complete Beatles Recording Sessions" detail every session at EMI Studios during the sixties, it's amazing to think there are another cache of Beatles sessions (and yes I said Beatles as I've never been a fan of the term Threetles) from the mid nineties of which comparatively speaking we know little about.

What we do know about them is very intriguing to say the least.  First off given the historical importance of these sessions, they were painstaking recorded in detail.  In addition to the work that obviously exists on the multi-track tapes, the sessions were also obviously videotaped to some degree and I wouldn't be at all surprised if there was some type of "diary tape" running at all times to capture the sessions for posterity.  The bottom line is that a wealth of material has to exist from these sessions and the importance of this material historically speaking cannot be understated.  

In regards to "Now And Then":  There is confirmation via Jeff Lynne in regards to "Now And Then" that there is a rough backing track in existence from at least one of these sessions.  One of the things that is most frustrating about the reunion sessions is there is almost no viable timetable for what was recorded and when outside of ascribing song titles to dates most of which come from contemporary press articles which at many times can be inaccurate.  For example it wasn't until 2008 when we got first hand confirmation from Peter Hodgson that the existence of a Harrison-McCartney song entitled "All For Love" that the existence of that song made the transition from being rumor to fact.

Outside of the confirmation from Jeff Lynne regarding the existence of a rough "Now And Then" backing track I've found it hard to pin down any other airtight statements regarding exactly how much work was done on the song in 94/95.  I've never been able to find any evidence that any of the sessions included vocal work on the song which is astounding given that according to the aforementioned contemporary reports "Now And Then" was basically worked on during every reunion session, including sessions up until late March of 1995 leaving Beatles fans to wonder what exactly was the band doing with their time in the studio?

There are also conflicting reports as to why "Now And Then" was scrapped.  The two most popular reports center around "the infamous hum" on John's original demo tape and the poor chart performance of the other reunion singles which allegedly soured George Harrison on working on anymore Lennon demos.  Vintage Music has already made comment on the infamous hum so I'll focus on the second report regarding Harrison's aversion to continuing on with any further Beatles sessions.  If it was indeed the poor chart performance that motivated the scrapping of any further sessions, it would lead one to speculate that further sessions were at least being considered well after the release of the first and possibly second volumes of the "Anthology" project.  It would also torpedo the theory that the sessions broke down due to a rift between George and Paul during the sessions themselves.  

One final footnote on a possible mid nineties fallout between George and Paul before I move on: There was a report out several years ago ostensibly based on an interview given by Paul McCartney where he mentioned that after the reunion sessions he made several attempts to reach out to work with both Ringo Starr and George Harrison.  Ringo was receptive (the cuts on "Flaming Pie" for example) and George wasn't.  I've never been able to find confirmation of this alleged comment from Paul McCartney so I'm not sure if it's accurate or not but if it's true it would lend credence to the fall out theory.

In regards to "All For Love": As little information as there is available on "Now And Then" there is almost nothing available on "All For Love"  Again if not for the confirmation of Peter Hodgson in 2008, even the existence of such a track would have to be called into question as nobody within the reunion sessions loop has ever commented publicly on the existence of "All For Love".  The track is often ascribed to the final reunion sessions from May of 1995 which saw the completion of "Real Love".  Contemporary press articles somewhat predictably conflict with one another in regards to this track with "Beatles Monthly" calling the track "complete" whereas Keith Badman terms the sessions for the track as being "aborted".  Now somewhere between completion and abortion lies the truth but exactly where is unknown.  

The closest thing we have to confirmation as to some type of accurate timeline in regards to the song comes once again from Hodgson who visited Paul in late March of 1995 where McCartney confirmed the recent penning of a song with George Harrison entitled "All For Love".  This was date the song's creation to March of 1995 (perhaps during the sessions of March 20th & 21st) which would tie into the song's alleged recording date two months later in May.  One could speculate being that nothing has ever been said of the song publicly by anyone within Camp Beatles means that the song probably doesn't exist in any type of releaseable form.

In regards to Vintage Music's comments about potential "Beatles/Threetles" releases that never happened:  I personally chalk any discussion about any potential post-Anthology work by Harrison, Starr and McCartney to something that was always going to be a pipe dream.  I know Paul McCartney made mention at least one time that at least in his mind there was potential for some future work by the trio post-Anthology but I think the physical absence of John Lennon would have always prevented any substantial project from moving forward.  George Harrison once noted that it was a policy within The Beatles that if any one member was absent from the group that the group couldn't reform and call themselves "The Beatles".  But it actually goes much deeper than just some arbitrary policy as there was obviously some deep emotional issues regarding the trio performing without John.  

Something that is rarely mentioned but worth noting is that during the one reunion session at Friar Park in June of 1994  (the one that was filmed extensively for the Anthology including group interviews and jams) is that that session was ostensibly organized under the premise that Paul, George and Ringo were going to re-record "Let It Be".  

Camera crews were obviously booked for this occasion and I think there were even reports that this performance of "Let It Be" was supposed to be the finale to the "Anthology" television special itself.  However, once the trio assembled at Friar Park, these plans were quickly abandoned due large in part to the fact that the absence of John Lennon was too overwhelming for the band to attempt a new recording without him.  Is it beyond the stretch of the imagination that similar issues may have torpedoed "All For Love" as well?


Finally in regards to Vintage Music's comments regarding further work being done on "Now And Then" by Paul McCartney after the passing of George Harrison in 2001:  I would be most interested if you can find a source that either names the engineers who worked on the song or at least ascribes the comments you made mention of to engineers who worked on the song.  The reason being is that while Paul McCartney has been quoted in the press several times about his appreciation for "Now And Then" and his desire to complete it there has been no confirmation as to any further post mid nineties work being done on the song outside of anonymous sources which detail events much like the ones you reported in your post (the song is now completed, McCartney added new parts, George Harrison is both musically/vocally evident on the recording).  However, being anonymous sources, the very nature of their statements are open to all sorts of interpretation.  Therefore if you have similar reports of post mid-nineties work done on "Now And Then" with those reports being ascribed to something other than anonymous sources, well that would be very interesting to say the least.

Good post, John Mill!

Vintage and John, concerning the leak of "Revolution 1 (Take 20)", which combines "Revolution 1" and "a version of "Revolution 9" into a long drawn out extended psychedelic nightmarish song. According to Lewisohn’s book, only two copies of the take were made when recording the song was completed in June, 1968. One copy left the studio with Lennon that day, and the other remained behind.

Do you guys think it should remain in bootleg form for the fans or formally released with the aforementioned songs at some point?

I love that take - I don't think it's a mix of the two songs, is it? I mean, the legend goes that the master take of Revolution got a bit silly and they chopped off the jam to make #9, which that take supports.

That's the sort of thing the Anthology should have released as opposed to a sodding alternate take of Blackbird or identical mixes of Glass Onion. I'd love to have it as an official release.

John Mill great post, I've sent you some information privately, that may be interesting to you, feel free to message me.

Mikie, in a way it's moot, because the bootleg is such high quality, I personally don't care about Revolution take 20, but there
are lots of people who do. So yes I think in some fashion it should come out, as to whether it's with the other songs/material
we have been speaking of, that depends how they would do it. A totally new compilation album of some kind ? or simply bonus
tracks to the three existing Anthology albums?

The problem is, neither the Beatles, the Beatle widows, the record company, Mark Lewishon, or anybody else (Jeff Lynne, Giles Martin)
no one will even give a straight answer as to what exactly exists or what their plans might be.

Over time we learn things accidentally, but it's like pulling teeth, obviously a lot of people want to know exactly what remains in the
vaults, a lot of people want to hear what we know is there for sure, and we can't get a straight answer.

People had high hopes when Jeff Jones was appointed at Apple, why? because Jones had a long history of compiling archival
releases of previously unknown material, he has been enthroned at Apple for years now, and hasn't done anything in that regard
zip nada. Of Course it's not really his choice, the choice belongs to McCartney, Starr, Ono and the Harrisons.

We know McCartney is in favor of releasing this stuff, heck he went through all the trouble of numerous sessions to finish
Now and Then, it's kind of obvious he wants it out, and he said publicly he wanted Carnival of Light out in 2008. So why would
he object to Revolution 20?

Either there is a plan to release this stuff and we don't know about it, or someone else is preventing it.

Mark Lewishon could fill in most of the blanks, he had carte blanche access to the recorded archives when he wrote the book
and he was in the loop during the Anthology period.

As John Mill stated, obviously the most coveted stuff, would be additional reunion songs, and Carnival of light, and a few things
like that., By the way, hen john Mill explained how we accidentally finally found out about the song by McCartney/Harrison called
"ALL FOR LOVE" that wiped page has disappeared! we had photos, eyewitness testimony in some great detail, poof gone.

Somebody is trying hard to suppress all this stuff, there are only two reasons to suppress it, one because anytime now, maybe
for the 50th anniversary, the Beatle people are gonna lay this great new thing on us, or second just the opposite, they have
no intention or concern what the fans may want, and they are trying to shut all information and talk about it down..

Yes it should come out, if there isn't room on a new compilation album because it's so long and unconventional, then it should
be a bonus track or B side or something like that.

By the way, there is a new story, unconfirmed, at Wogblog, that people at Apple are hustling really hard, trying to come up
with some kind of release to celebrate fifty years of the Beatles, later this year, as the first single "Love Me Do" turns fifty.

It makes me wonder what those people do over there all day, it's just dawning on them now, that Love me Do the first Beatle
record is about to turn fifty? wouldn't that be their job to know things like that over there?

If the people over there are that disconnected from the history and the landmark dates, I wouldn't give out much hope they
are gonna do much of anything.

One time their big release was a $300 writing pen to celebrate the White album. I can't tell you how disappointing that was
now $300 for the pen, the White Demos, and A studio version of Sour Milk Sea might have been okay, but just pen?

Okay before I begin, a little forewarning: This post is going to be quite scattered as I'm going to touch on a lot of different things.  A lot of what I write is also going to be boiled down to speculation because quite frankly there really aren't hard answers available to a lot of the questions raised in these issues.  I hope that at least some Beatlemaniacs will find some of the following interesting or useful:

Yoko Ono & Olivia Harrison on the prospect of releasing "Now And Then": First off I think it's fair to assume that the two surviving Beatles (The Twotles ugh!) aren't necessarily opposed to the future release of unreleased Beatles music specifically in regards to the track "Now And Then".  McCartney as detailed has come out in the press several times in favor of releasing the track and I personally have a hard time seeing Ringo Starr voicing a major opposition to the release of any further Beatles archival material.

That being said, it brings us to the two other people in Camp Beatle who have veto power as far as any potential future releases by the band: Yoko Ono & Olivia Harrison.  To both women's credit they have both gone on the record with their feelings about a potential future release on "Now And Then" with Yoko's quotes being the more interesting of the two.  Yoko went on record in 2005 speaking about The Beatles reunion tracks and specifically "Now And Then":


Ironically it is Yoko Ono herself who perhaps makes the most cogent argument for the eventual release of "Now And Then".  Something that always struck me about the two tracks that The Beatles chose to release in the mid nineties as reunion singles is that both of them were essentially upbeat and happy tracks.  "Now And Then" evidently isn't and Yoko Ono describes it's tone perfectly in the above quote.  I agree with her 100% that it would offer something different from a emotional perspective to Beatles fans regarding not only the loss of John but George Harrison as well.  The Beatles I believe mean so much to so many different people and "Now And Then" is one of those beautiful haunting songs that I believe could both mean a great deal and be a fitting epilogue to arguably the greatest rock group in history.

As to any possible aversion Yoko Ono might have towards a potential future release of "Now And Then".  My feeling is that Ono will always desire proprietary say in anything involving her late husband.  While I know that Yoko Ono has been extremely invested in the promotion of the legacy of John Lennon, I've never been able to get an accurate read as to exactly what Yoko's feelings are regarding the legacy of The Beatles.  Is she in favor of future releases of music featuring John Lennon from the "Beatle era" or not?  If I had to cast my vote in one direction I would say it would be something she would be in favor of.  I base this assumption given that she provided George, Paul and Ringo with the rough demos on which to base the reunion recordings to begin with coupled with another assumption that if McCartney has indeed been working on "Now And Then" over the past several years he would have not done so without Ono's permission.  There would after all be little point in recording something like this if he knew in advance it would never have the chance of finding release.  I actually would not be at all surprised that if the rumors are true regarding McCartney finishing "Now And Then" if Ono doesn't already have a copy in her possession.  

Also of note is a careful perusal of Ono's quote reveals that the only time she voices reservations about a potential future release for "Now And Then" is where/when it pertains to George Harrison not John Lennon.  Am I alone in taking this comment as reading that she herself is not necessarily opposed to the release of the track but is unsure herself whether or not the others with veto power feel the same?

That being said Olivia Harrison also made comment about the potential release of "Now And Then":


Quite frankly I don't know exactly what to take from all that.  She claims not to know much about the situation surrounding the recording of the track which is evident in her unfamiliarity with the details surrounding it's recording.  She does however make what seems to me to be a very odd statement about it "not being good enough" but in saying that she opens up the door to another question which is even if the track as left in 1995 wasn't good enough, does it necessarily mean that it can never be good enough especially if McCartney has finished it?  Perhaps it wasn't good enough in 1995 simply because of the fact it wasn't finished?  

Is something rotten in Camp Beatle?:  Moving onto another matter (somewhat anyhow), there seems to be an issue surrounding Camp Beatle which has denied Beatles fans any true further archival releases since the release of the "Anthology" series in the mid nineties.  While it would be foolish to deny that there something amiss, defining what that issue may be is actually quite complicated.

When it comes to The Beatles there seems to be a "branding issue" in that there is a belief among Beatles fans that Camp Beatle (or certain parties within Camp Beatle) believes that any future release bearing the name of the group has to be some type of landmark issue which will be met with great fanfare from all corners of the globe.  If this is true, it would essentially explain why there hasn't been any archival releases from The Beatles since "Anthology" as quite frankly there isn't anything left in The Beatles archives that would be met with that amount of widespread fanfare.  

Most of what is left in The Beatles' archives is along the lines of what was found on the "Anthology" albums specifically a large cache of studio work pertaining to the recording of every Beatles song in the catalog.  The problem is The Beatles were never a band whose rough drafts deviated much from their final product.  Additionally the selection of roughs which did deviate from the final product are for the most part already on the "Anthology".  So in that context one can understand why Paul McCartney once termed any post-Anthology archival releases as being "scraping the bottom of the barrel" although it should be noted he was in no way himself opposed to potential future releases.

The problem is there obviously haven't been any future releases and equally frustrating is outside of the "brand issue" there really has been no explanation as to why.  There have even been reports that there has been internal work done by Camp Beatle on a number of interesting projects none of which have found release which essentially brings us back to square one as to what or whom is blocking these releases from getting to the fans?

In my opinion right now The Beatles are sitting on four potential future issues that would be met with warm reception from both general and hardcore fans.  These four releases would be: The Beatles Live At The Hollywood Bowl (1977 Capitol Album)/Let It Be DVD & Blu-Ray/Kinfauns demos/Xmas Flexis.  All of these releases could be released tomorrow and be easily marketed to the public as a live Beatles album, the acoustic white album, The Beatles Christmas Records and the first release of the "Let It Be" film in digital format.

In addition should they ever chose to market a series of releases specifically to the hardcore fanbase that would open up literally a world of possibilities from an on-demand subscription website where fans could download Beatles sessions at will to a series such as Dylan's Bootleg Series.  

The problem is that right now all of this is merely a pipe dream and what is equally disturbing is they are the only major act of their era that has stonewalled their hardcore fanbase in this manner which has lead more than one Beatle fan to wonder just what is going on behind the scenes that we don't know about that may be preventing the releases we crave from getting to us?

I wonder if Dhani Harrison, or Olivia Harrison, is making the decisions now. with their vote
on the Apple Board.

John Mill, I remember that Quote of Olivia Harrison's very well with the "sometimes time just runs out"
what a totally uncool answer on her part.

I suspect, or my educated guess on Now And Then would be, that quite possibly, McCartney
would have needed to write some verse or bridge lyrics, at least in places to flesh out a
finished record. While listening to a finished record, although Lennon would perhaps be the
primary lead vocalist, perhaps McCartney by necessity would be a co-lead vocalist, because of
holes in the demo, I wonder, I hate to even say this, could Olivia Harrison, be the sort of person
petty enough, to deny millions of fans the right to hear the song, because McCartney wrote four
lines of lyrics and Harrison didn't?

I don't want to go there, I prefer to think the song is just around the corner as part of some new
compilation album, to celebrate the upcoming Beatles 50Th anniversary.


I disagree with John Mill on one point, while I agree the Beatles Christmas album, a refurbished Let it Be DVD
the White album demo's could all be nice releases, I don't think they would have any edge on , hypothetically now
The Beatles sessions album with new mixes on the fifteen unreleased songs that appeared on Anthology, plus
Free As A Bird, Real Love and four or five new songs, Now and Then, Carnival of Light, Sour Milk Sea, All For Love
and maybe a bonus disc of videos for some of those songs,

That's another release by the way that would be nice, all the Beatles Promo Films on one DVD. Officially there are only
about a dozen of the Beatles promo films, Hey Jude, Revolution, Strawberry Fields etc etc. But there are another
fifty really, some were made for Anthology, plus all the song videos in the films, plus some of the early black and white
ones like Day Tripper and We Can Work it out, and some other newer ones, like Two Of Us from Let it Be Naked, it would
be great to have all those in high resolution in one set. But the last new Beatles song in history trumps the Christmas album
or Live at Shea in my opinion.

Agreed. 'Let It Be' needs to be given the same treatment as the 'Hard Day's Night' and 'Help!' DVD's. I can't figure out why they haven't formally released this yet after all these years. Is Macca holding it up? A cleaned up formal release of the Shea Stadium concert would be nice on DVD. Beatles Ed Sullivan Shows would be nice. Excellent versions of 'The Beatles Live At The Hollywood Bowl' and 'Beatles Christmas Album' were issued on CD by Dr. Ebbetts, but a formal release would be nice for the completist. Same with 'Get Back Sessions' and the 'Rooftop concert'. The acoustic 'White' has been booted but I dunno about a formal release. Same with the Escher demos. Best of the Get Back and Abbey Rd. Sessions would be nice. Lots of material there!

One last point on "Now And Then":  Does anyone else find it weird that given all the opportunities that Yoko Ono has had since the reunion sessions to release the original Lennon demo of "Now And Then" officially that it still remains unheard by the general public?  I mean think about it: "Lennon Anthology", the 2001-2005 reissues, "Lennon Signature" all contained several unreleased Lennon demos yet none of these packages included "Now And Then".

Ono did sanction use of the song in 2005 musicial "Lennon" (along with another at that time unreleased Lennon demo "India India").  "India India" was subsequently released on "Lennon Signature" in 2010, "Now And Then" was not.  

I guess I'm wondering if there is a reason why "Now And Then" has yet to appear on any John Lennon archival package?  It's obvious that Yoko Ono has affection for the song given the fact she donated it to the reunion sessions project as well as sanctioning it for use in the 2005 musical.  I wonder if it is being held back because Ono knows there are bigger plans in the works for this particular song and doesn't want to damage it's potential commercial appeal by officially issuing the demo beforehand?

Already out.

I have the 4 Complete Sullivan shows on DVD that came out a couple of years ago, but you gotta wade through the other crap to get to the good stuff. I need to make a new DVD and edit the commercials and other stuff out. I'm not interested in the non-Beatles stuff.

There has been a reissue of the Ed Sullivan episodes that The Beatles did, and it gives you the option of watching the complete original episodes as they aired(complete with commercials), or you can just watch the portions with The Beatles.

Yes that is interesting John. Yoko certainly could have issued the demo, as she has so many other Lennon demo's

Another interesting thing John, there have been many major stories in the press, regarding Now And Then over
the last several years, about it being finished, or it's planned release. Stories which recieved a lot of worldwide
attention.

Neither Apple, EMI, Yoko, the Beatles, have ever contradicted or denied any of those stories. However when other
stories were false and were garnering press and attention, the Beatles and or their record companies were quick
to debunk the stories. Not with Now And Then, not once. They have not disputed one word in the press about plans
for the song, additional recording, or anything else pertaining to it.


Lewishon could probably offer some information, oddly he seems to be part of the whitewash, or perhaps he wants to wait until
2020 when the third volume of his Beatles biography comes out.

Well my feeling is Mark Lewisohn is going to error on the side of caution when it comes to matters like this in the future.  I believe he actually got his hand slapped pretty hard around a decade ago for allegedly allowing fellow author Mark Hertsgaard to listen to some Beatles multi-track tapes as Hertsgaard was preparing a book of his own on The Beatles.  This apparently didn't go down well with Camp Beatle and Lewisohn was booted off the "Lennon Anthology" project which he was originally supposed to head up instead of Rob Stevens because of this alleged indiscretion. 

So as I said I think he's going to error on the side of caution.

Thanks for the info, Jay. Around 2004 I picked up a DVD (boot) that has all of the Ed Sullivan shows accessed by one graphic menu. I haven't even played the 2010 release yet, which I forgot I even had!

Something seems to be happening in camp Beatle.

All kinds of Youtube stuff, has been deleted by EMI. In the last 48 hours. Also
WOGBLOG, a well known respected Beatle blogger and researcher, said that
EMI is frantic trying to come up with something new for the Beatles 50Th Anniversary
later this year, as the first single "Love Me Do" turns fifty.

Sadly I can't connect any of these swift, stealthy, movements in camp Beatle with any
of this unreleased material. It could simply be The refurbished Mystery Tour movie release
or some new greatest hits album. Or who knows.

But whenever the Beatles are preparing a new release, there is always the chance that finally
Carnival of Light, Now and Then, and the highly coveted remaining unreleased tracks are coming
out.

Sure I am excited (somewhat) about the prospect of A cleaned up Mystery Tour Movie, or Let it Be (unlikely)
or any number of possible projects. But something including these last songs we have never heard is
more exciting than any of the rest of it, at least to me. I've seen Magical Mystery Tour about 30 times
I have a copy already. A cleaner copy is nice but I view that as simply a technical upgrade, something
that should take place as a  matter of routine. Something I have never been able to hear before, now
that's exciting.

Anyway something seems to be afoot, and suddenly and recently. Anyone with some info, please chime in.

I can't think of anything more dramatic as the Beatles recordings and fame turn fifty, than to finally release
the last remaining unknown "new" Beatles songs. In some way. Anything else pales by comparison, because
whatever it is, we have already seen and heard it, and probably have some type of copy in our collections already.

A few years back an author by the name of Richie Unterberger authored a book entitled "The Unreleased Beatles".  In my opinion it is easily one of the best books ever written on the band and in the last few pages or so he gives his opinion on whether or not there could be any forthcoming archival releases from The Beatles.  He basically has the same viewpoint that I do about this which is pretty pessimistic although optimistic that in the distant future all of this stuff will be available via the internet.  To clarify what I mean by distant future, I mean after Paul, Ringo, Yoko Ono and Olivia Harrison pass and "the brand" is handed down to the next generation.

That being said it's worth pointing out as far as releases pertaining to the music, The Beatles have basically hit the bottom of the well if they don't intend to issue archival material.  Unterberger's book was written prior to the 2009 remasters and the subsequent reissue of the "Red", "Blue" and "1" albums using the remasters.  Honestly with the exception of DVD and Blu-Ray releases of "Magical Mystery Tour" and "Let It Be", there is really nothing left to be reissued by Camp Beatle that isn't already out there on the market.

So in my opinion they are kind of in a "where do we go from here" type scenario.  They have their rarities compilations ("Anthology 1-3"), remastered catalog from 2009, remastered hits catalog and they even went through a period around a decade ago where they actually tried to improve arguably the two weakest albums in their catalog by reissuing them in different formats ("Yellow Submarine" & "Let It Be").  Heck they've even issued a couple of outside the box projects such as "Love" and "Rock Band".  I guess they could consider a complete remixing of the entire catalog similar to what Yoko Ono did to Lennon's catalog around a decade ago but I'm not sure that is even something that would even be considered for The Beatles.  It's probably also too close to the issue of the remasters to flood the market with a remixed version of the catalog anytime soon.

Again there are a myriad of issues that might be blocking any further archival releases by The Beatles, most of which we covered here.  From the "brand issue", diminishing sales of all the archival issues after "Anthology 1" and a viable commercial format to get this music to the fans.  That being said I think if anything speaks in favor of The Beatles opening up their archives once again is the fact that aside from those two DVDs there is really nothing left for them to remaster/reissue.  It's really all out there now.

Edit: Oops I forgot they also reissued "The Capitol Records" a few years back as well even though that particular series was never completed.  The reason being allegedly again was the diminishing sales issue.

I don't know about all that John. McCartney presumably went through the effort and expense to
record onto and finish Now And Then, McCartney stated publicly in 2008 he wanted the song to
come out, and that it would come out. Carnival of Light I am talking about. He worked on Now and
then, but has only spoken in general terms about its release, Carnival, he specifically talked about
releasing it soon,

Some guy writes a book and contradicts what McCartney himself said about Carnival of Light.
So who would know better, the former Beatle making the public statement or this author?

Also the beatles remasters were a miniority view online also, "oh they are never coming" and
all that, of course they did come.

In a huge coincidence, Universal (which now owns EMI) is selling a "NEW" George Harrison collection
of rarities or unknown songs, demos, whatever it is, listed on Amazon right now, for a release date of
May first.

I'd actually go with the author personally because McCartney's vote isn't the only one that matters.  I have little doubt that McCartney is in favor of future archival releases (heck he even tried to get "Carnival Of Light" on "Anthology 2") but he needs to secure votes from the three other parties in order to get any Beatles archival material on the market.  That is why I remain pessimistic about the prospect of any archival releases in the short term.

Also the fact that EMI is trying to shop a reissue of "Love Me Do" again to me speaks of the direction where they are headed and it's not the direction that will lead to them opening up their archives anytime soon.  I can see reissues similar to what came out for Record Store Day last year with the reissues of Ticket To Ride/Yes It Is, Eleanor Rigby/Yellow Submarine, Hey Jude/Revolution & Something/Come Together 45s continuing to appear over the next several years but I guess we'll see.

For what it's worth that Harrison rarities set is already out in the UK and has been for quite sometime now.  It was bundled with the deluxe blu-tray edition of the Scorsese documentary but is going to be a separate issue once the documentary hits US shelves in May.

Interesting stuff.  Thanks for posting, guys.  For those of you who would like to hear a little of "Now And Then", look no further to YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yYRWnzKow8

Yeah,, thanks for that link, you might all take note of the fact, there is no BUZZING SOUND, ruining the track, making it impossible
to work with, one of the fake stories perpetrated by the Beatles, Jeff Lynne etc etc. Who knows maybe at one time it was true.
But for years now, obviously, the persisitent "Buzz on the track story" clearly holds no water.

Now possibly, that guy Fred Seaman, Lennon's personal assistant, who went to jail for stealing a bunch of Lennon's tapes
and diaries., some of that stuff wasn't recovered for years, so  who knows maybe in 1994 when Yoko handed over a cassette
down about three or four generations, maybe it was true then. But anyway, Now and Then sounds clean and workable now.

And as we know, McCartney has finished the track, with all four Beatles on it, according to at least two eye witness's who
were involved in the recording.


There is also several Fake Now and Then's where people overdubbed a big arrangement with drums, bass., keyboards guitars
etc etc, sadly, the people who made the "outfakes" didin't have the Beatles talent, and sound pretty bad to my ears, from an
arrangement and playing point of view.

The actual real Beatles version, probably has some new lyrics written and sung by McCartney, and some heavy editing of
the songs structure to keep the good bits. and get rid of some of the bad parts, make the structure more coherent, and add
some verses against those Lennon chorus parts, there are several bits, that I guess could be called a Bridge, and probably
that was edited and dropped in the right spot.  


Anyway I really hope we get to hear that, other people have, why not us, and Carnival Of Light, I just think in my mind of a
McCartney version of Revolution 9, its probably not something you want to hear all the time, there are probably no hooks
proper lyrics, or even consistent melody, its a avante gard thing, but so what, we have Revolution #9 and Whats the New Mary Jane
we should have Carnival of Light too. As well as several other choice cuts that remain in the vault


By the way, on youtube, a large number of Beatle documentary type things have disappeared over the last 48-72 hours
at the insistence of EMI/ Universal record company.   SOmething is clearly afoot here.

Whether it has anything to do with some of these previously unreleased tracks who knows, but something is up..


Bear in mind one possible reason for not releasing archival tracks, was the demise of EMI records, and whether the Beatles might
get ownership back if it went belly up, but with the sale to Universal music, which is solvent, it seems they have ownership
as EMI used to, EMI only exists now as wholly owned subsidiary of Universal, maybe the beatles got a slightly better deal when
that ownership change took place, and certainly the Beatles hate EMI for the way they were treated and cheated, now that EMI
has bitten the dust, and ceased to exist as one of the major remaining record companies, maybe that shook something loose.
Certainly Universal  wants to get some of their money back after laying out all that money for EMI

Something is clearly afoot.

You have a strange thought process, vintagemusic.

"Why, it must be Dhani Harrison blocking these archival releases that the record label aren't planning because no-one bought his EP.....'

yeah I shouldn't have said that. I get very heated on this subject. I don't even know if Dhani Harrison gets a vote on the Apple
Board, technically there are four voting members, any one of the four can excersise a veto., The four votes are held by the two
surviving Beatles, and the two widows, Yoko and Olivia.

However, certain other people although they don't technically have a vote, they can lobby there position, Jeff Jones, Dhani Harrison
Other spouses or adult children, I don't know. I think Olivia Harrison, kind of a griefstricken ageing widow, has worked in partnership
with Dhani on the Harrison archives for some time. Dhani Harrison got the four Beatle votes to proceed with the whole Beatles
Rockband thing, instead of getting Bonus tracks as we might have, Dhani Harrison talked them into releasing a childrens game with
the remasters instead of the bonus tracks. Apparently they lost money, and don't want any more beatle rockband games, although
once collectors ripped through the security features, fans now have remixes on the entire Pepper, Rubber Soul and ABBey Road album
New mixes were prepared for the game, and if you know where to look, there are three entire albums remixed fresh, sounding very clean

So you know it could be true, McCartney isin't   blocking the archive tracks, doesn't seem to be Yoko., Hell she is the one who gave Now and Then
to them in the first place, she already gave it to them, she cant stop them, she already voted  yes. I doubt if it its Ringo holding it up the most logical
explanation, is an ageing Olivia Harrison, influenced byher son who is her partner in the Harrison archivess, maybe they are blocking the whole
thing. EMI rejected a Harrison box set of rarities some time ago, and Dhani Harrison was unhappy about it. Or so Harrison says.

No investigative journalist touches or gets near this subject, this was part of John Mills point.   We have a huge series of beatles recording sessions
in the 90's almost nothing is known about it, we found out about an addition song by accident, through that guy Hodgson, and now his comments
have disappeared from the web, like the Beatle secret police have excised it from the public.

Its all very James Bond and unsavory.. and we still don't know the facts. Somebody is trying awfully hard to keep us from talking about these Beatle rariteis
and it certainly isin't Paul McCartney, he is the one on our side trying to get it out, who is blocking it? It's not Yoko,. it's probably not Ringo, who does
that leave in your opinion?


the

I think you're overestimating the efforts of Apple to release these things. From what we know, there isn't much to fill out a compilation after the Anthology in the same way that there is with The Beach Boys. We would have....

1. Helter Skelter (28 minute mix)
2. Revolution (Long booted take)
3. Carnival Of Light
4. Now & Then (if it actually is in anything approaching a releasable condition)
5. er...
6. See what I mean?

In terms of releasing the 90's sessions, I could find it very easy to believe that the surviving Beatles are not fussed or feel a major, pressing need to get them out - If George didn't feel the third track was good enough to work up to a finished standard, well I can respect his decision and I'm sure that Olivia (who has his stake, not Dhani) is respecting his decision. As do Paul, Yoko and Ringo.

In terms of Beatles Rock Band, I find it very hard to believe that could actually have lost them any money, although it did not sell as well as other Rock Band games. In terms of what it means for the legacy, I don't think it's harmful at all. It's their music packaged for a new audience and given a respectable cartoon treatment (which isn't a bad thing - Yellow Submarine, right?) and is ultimately not very significant. If you want to specifically blame Dhani for it, go ahead.

We fans have the awful feeling that we're entitled to everything, is all. If Paul, Yoko, Olivia and Ringo don't feel like releasing what they consider to be substandard material, that's ok with me.

Purple Chick already did exactly that.  It's in their expanded White Album set that came out 6 or 7 years ago.  It sounds great, actually.

Purple Chick did extended versions of ALL of the Beatle albums, including 'Get Back' and more.  They're really good.

They really are. I just acquired them as well and I am currently LOVING the expanded Sgt. Pepper.

I don't think you read what I wrote friend, What I said was, Paul McCartney has been working hard  "to release" the archival material, not prevent it.
I said someone else must be trying to block the release over McCartney's objections.

As for you short list of what's available to release, there is a lot more than your brief list to choose from.

1- The white album demo's virtually an entire acoustic demo unplugged version of the album recorded at Harrison's house
prior to the sessions proper

2- The Christmas album, this may be one of the most entertaining parts of the entire unreleased archive

3- Christmas Time is here again, a music and singing mix only, not marred by spoken word dialogue.

4- All For Love a 1995 recording by Paul George and Ringo written by     McCartney Harrison

5- The live Henley on Thames Jam, several hours worth of live jamming playing dozens of songs recorded by Jeff Lynne on 2 inch 24 track tape
as briefly seen in the Beatle anthology film

6- Sour Milk Sea new mix using the multitracks and HArrisons guide vocal or outfake mix using the beatles demo and the Lomax backing track

7- An alternate version of Love You Too on acoustic guitar with melodic vocals by George And Paul, commonly referred to as "granny smith"

8- A recording by george, paul and ringo at the final I me Mine session in early 1970, where the band recorded a version of Peggy Sue Got Married on
multitrack tape with Harrison singing lead


9- a composite take of the Beatles version of All Things Must Pass

10 a take of Lennon singing McCartney's early song " I Lost My Little Girl" at the Twickenham sessions

11 Early dick james demos such as Bad To Me,  I'm In Love, and the reported 66 McCartney demo of "Woman" given to Peter and Gordon, as well
as another early Acetate in Peter Asher's possesion.

12 A totally different and unrelated recording of Fixing a Hole

13  Now and Then, (finished Beatles version)

14 Carnival of Light

15 Revolution take 20

16 Beatles long version of Dig It


That's not even a complete list, but that's my favorite stuff I want to hear, and clearly, its a little more lengthy that you indicate with
your'e short list Hypehat, I just listed several hours worth of recordings, that could certainly be edited down to one disc.
there is plenty there, I didin't even get into..

Several of the White Album Esher demos form Anthology 3, correct? If there was enough in The Beatles vault to justify bootleg series style releases, that'd be a great period to focus on. I'd love the christmas releases in an official release, too. Those crack me up, especially the 1967 one.

IDK, in my opinion, if a Beatles archival release came out with that sort of tracklisting, I reckon a lot of people would be miffed. We are also not sure of the quality of several of the things you mention, like the River Jam or several alternate versions - a lot of this would have come up in the process for the Anthology series and found wanting, with good reason or otherwise. And given the paucity of 'unique' material on the Anthology, that says something. Us hardcore lot also seem to get miffed at a lot of the things you suggest - touching up or composite takes constructed after the fact, such as And Your Bird Can Sing from Anthology 2?

Has Paul been trying so hard? I mean, he talks about Carnival of Light whenever he has the occasional ambient Fireman project coming up, but I haven't heard him going on about it all the time. And his efforts are trained elsewhere. It's a lot of speculation on our part, we can't possibly know what the hell goes on in Apple HQ nowadays.


Also, don't leave the board, man  :)

Agreed. Don't. You think you know everything about your favorite band and then you read a thread like this. I've been on a Beatle kick for days now. I just put together a make-shift version of the "Love Songs" compilation album from the 70s on my iPod. Keep up the good work!

With all due respect this isn't a matter of entitlement.  For most hardcore Beatles fans anyhow.  Most of us are resigned to the fact that there is a vast chasm between where we think the brand should be heading and where it actually is right now.  That being said we also recognize that there seems to be a great deal of negativity espoused by several people in Camp Beatle in regards to any future archival releases and this attitude has existed even before the release of the "Anthology" albums.  Here for your perusal are some selected quotations followed by my own brief analysis:


- 1990 - When asked about interest in releasing Beatles archival material: "Well the difficult question is like, every bit of what?  You mean all the takes we didn't like?  That's what people seem to want.  It doesn't make much sense to me.  I mean I think you should say for the rabid collector, okay maybe you've got to have it all.  But personally I wouldn't be interested in it" ~ Paul McCartney

- 1990 - "If you start making the alternate takes available, in ten years people may not know which was the finished take and which wasn't.  I rather avoid the confusion" ~ Paul McCartney

- 1990 - "We always felt that what came out is what we wanted out.  That was the musician in us.  We weren't really interested in the avid fan who wants anything.  I think we're moving more along those lines now, because some of the "Take 2s" would be really interesting" ~ Ringo Starr to "Musician" magazine.

- 3/93 - When asked about the prospects about unreleased material that still lay inside the vaults at Abbey Road Studios: "I've listened to all the tapes.  There are one or two interesting variations, but otherwise it's all junk.  Couldn't possibly release it." ~ George Martin

- 11/93 - Regarding potentially releasing Beatles archival material as part of the upcoming "Anthology" project: "Everything like that would be available.  We are going to put everything that I consider to be valid from every source, including The Beatles' own private collections, demos they made..." ~ George Martin

- 1996: "After I had joked that after "Volume 3" (Anthology), anything else should be called "Scraping The Barrel", George Martin said, 'Yeah we'd have to put a government health warning on it!'" ~ George Harrison to "Billboard" magazine

- 3/06 - Regarding the prospect of future archival releases: "(I can't) think of anything that was of any value that wasn't put out" ~ Geoff Emerick to Richie Unterberger in "Record Collector"
=========================
I don't think it's entitlement at all on the part of the collector to find any (or all) of these statements to be highly inaccurate and at times insulting.  Also called into question is the capability and qualifications of those involved in assessing the value of what remains in the archives as at times they don't seem to have a complete grasp as to the vast trove of material that still exists.

To make things simple aside from the lack of knowledge on the part of the individuals that I quoted above to what remains in the vault, what this really comes down to is the intrinsic value of the archival material versus it's commercial appeal.  If we assume that all that Camp Beatle is concerned about is the commercial appeal of what is left in the vault then we can begin to understand their negative comments more easily as even I would agree that what is left in the vault would hold little value to anyone outside of the hardcore collector.

That being said it is absolutely absurd for anyone (including those I quoted above) to make the assumption that everything that remains in the vault is of low standard or of low quality.  To suggest that merely plays upon the ignorance of those who don't know any better.

So being that we have established that this is a matter of preference on the part of those who hold the keys to the archives rather than anything particularly toxic about the material itself, it basically takes us back to what I've been referencing since the start of this debate.  Camp Beatle is out of touch with how artists are marketing their archives to collectors these days.  They have an extremely myopic and negative view about what remains in their archives which is why I believe any future archival releases will have to wait until the aforementioned are no longer in control.  

Again this is not a matter of entitlement but merely something that The Beatles collector's circuit apparently has to deal with everyday.

The Beatles just did not leave their great stuff on the cutting room floor.  People really are just getting worked up over the few remaining dribs and drabs at this point.  I'd love to hear that stuff, but unlike, say, the Beach Boys, it's not as though there are entire, unheard, finished, great original songs in the vault.  We're talking a noise collage, some unfinished demos, some stuff that could possibly have been patched up separately at a later date...

They seem to have handled their back catalog and archival material really well, and for the rest of it they have the most efficient, well-trained army of bootleggers in the world.

John Mill as always, you are so knowledgeable, reasonable and articulate.

Besides getting enjoyment out of talking about Beatle "rarities" I hope to
learn something, and even more to sway the public opinion, hopefully so some
of this stuff is released. That's my goal, I'd like to hear it.

As a legal matter, certainly the unreleased material is private property, I or the
public have no right to force the Beatles to release it, but people can change their
minds! As the Beatles did when they finally released the anthology.

Honestly when I learned there were a couple more reunion tracks, and when I realized
there were a couple more vintage sixties tracks like Carnival of Light, and Sour Milk Sea
I have been on a mission to get that stuff released through public awareness.

There is as you said, the purist camp, that hates Free As A Bird and Real Love, the purists that
hate editing pieces together to create a whole take, such as was done with One After 909 on
anthology.

There are the people who just want to hear endless alternate takes of well known Beatle songs.
There are the people who want to hear the Live stuff, incredibly, there is no defining Beatles live
album, incredible as that seems. Granted they weren't a jam band, but I agree there should be one
definitive CD of the Beatles live, Shea Stadium or Hollywood Bowl or whatever.

There are literally hundreds of   badly recorded live songs from the Let it Be?twickenham sessions, but
sadly most of them have bad fidelity and bad performance. With a few exceptions.

I like a few of the alternate takes, some of the Anthology and Love alternate Strawberry Fields stuff
is great, but generally I don't care much about 11 extra takes of Day Tripper or Taxman or whatever.

I am very interested in the handful of remaining unreleased songs we never heard, namely Now and then
Carnival Of Light and Sour Milk Sea, as well as All For Love, if it exists in releasable condition.

If I was kind for a day, I would issue the following as different albums, or projects. A compilation of all
the Beatles Promotional rock videos. as a stand alone video.

I would issue probably Shea Stadium as a BLu Ray and as a live album.

I would issue a double or triple album of all the Beatles alternate takes to well known songs..

I would issue the best of the Let it Be jams... tidied up with modern technology and creating whole performances
by editing pieces of different takes together. There must be fifteen takes of All Things Must Pass, I would use every
technical gizmo in the world to create on nice performance with good fidelity, and do the same for hopefully a dozen
other songs. or two dozen from the Twickenham sessions.

I would issue the Beatles Christmas album, maybe with additional outtakes or skits, like some of Lennon's and Ringo's
Lucy from Littletown kind of stuff.

I would be interested in a new Beatle animated film, along the lines of Yellow Submarine but totally different, using
actors for the dialogue or hopefully, using the Beatles actual dialogue from the Christmas skits, other skits, interviews
Lennon's poetry readings and so on,

Most important, I would create an album including Now and Then, Free As A Bird, Carnival Of light, all unreleased songs
that were never on Past Masters or a proper Beatles album, and revive the Beatles "Sessions" album, it would be perhaps
somewere around 20-25 songs, if you had the Beatles regular albums, and the past masters, and this new album, you
would have all the Beatles songs from the studio.

Also I would issue the white album demos,  as an unplugged album, and I would see if there were enough early Demos like
Bad To me to issue as an album of early demos.


If all that stuff wasn't feasible. I would then say, release all that stuff as bonus tracks on the corresponding albums
when they remix them. Now and Then would go on Anthology, Carnival of Light would go on Sgt Pepper. Sour Milk Sea
and Not Guilty would go on the White album, etc etc.


For some reason I can't fathom, most Beatle collectors like us, disagree with me, and want alternate takes, live stuff and
new mixes, more than they want Carnival of Light and Now and then.

I think the biggest surefire triple platinum album, would be a revived, remixed sessions,  with Now and Then, Carnival of Light
Sour Milk Sea, All For Love,  Free As A Bird, Real Love added to the original fifteen songs, plus a new video for one or two of
the new songs, I think that would go big... Ladies And Gentleman, the last new Beatles songs in history, in pristine studio
quality......

 John as far as McCartney and the other Beatle people making contradictory statements that's true, but McCartney has spoken in favor
of both Carnival of Light and Now and then, and spoken of "two" new Beatles songs that might rear their ugly head,


I Love to talk shop on this, so far as my staying on this board, I was insulted by several people today, and I feel kind of unwelcome,
so I don't know if I'll be around here, but if not, I'm sure we'll talk again on some of the other websites.

The Beatles are free to change their minds, I hope we see all this stuff real soon, I am certain we will see some of it.


We haven't even talked about what might be in the archives of McCartney and Harrison, I suspect there might be an impromptu
George Paul and Ringo recording from Friar Park, near the end of George Harrisons life. The evidence is thin, and we may never
know, but hopefully McCartney and the Harrisons will open those solo archives also.


Sometimes I wonder if all this unreleased stuff, is because McCartney was a little rude and thoughtless to Harrison
in the sixties, and the resentment of that carries over to this very day with his heirs. Lord I hope not.

OK keep posting, The Beatles can release all that stuff anytime they want, certainly they don't need the money,
maybe there are opinionated mandarins working at Apple, who feel it is their duty to control the Beatles recorded
archives, and those employees, hold the view that this stuff shouldn't come out and maybe the Beatles themselves
don't even know their employees hold that viewpoint. Mandarins in the Apple!!  It's good karma to hear the rest of
the Beatles music, look how positive the Beach Boys Smile Sessions has been with the critics and the public and for
making money! Fifty years! for the Beatles this November, I say it's high time we hear the archives!

Your'e a sharp guy, you're right, even so, it's the Beatles, there is no lost great album like Smile, it's just like you said, except there is
more stuff, than you seem to be aware of, but yes its all hodge podge, a possible live album, the White album demo;s which is pretty
comprehensive, two more reunion songs, McCartneys version of revolution nine, Sour Milk Sea, which is actually very cool, maybe as good
as Glass Onion or Savoy Truffle, something along those lines, Several hours of live recording between, Paul Ringo and George, as seen very
briefly in the film,. ( there is several hours of that jam)   Some of the Let it Be stuff could be patched up.


It;s worth a little more than fifty bucks in a neighborhood  pawn shop y friend,! Two more reunion songs OH MY GOD< two more songs
comparable to Free As A bird and Real Love,

But you are right, there is no Sgt Pepper album or  six White album songs, or half a Hard Day's night sitting there.

Still enough to be concerned about though. Some people love those alternate takes, don't know why, who cares about say six different
renditions of Happiness is a Warm Gun, but people do.

There's that studio chatter on the Think For Yourself vocal sessions that has been circulating for a while. I love that - especially unedited. Does much stuff like that circulate or was it rare that they kept the tape rolling like that?

Well not everyone can be lucky enough to have a "SMiLE" locked up in the vaults  :P  ;)

Alright here we go.  Two pages worth of discussion and nobody yet has come up with a proposed release for a Beatles rarities set containing the most interesting stuff that is left in the vault.  I should state before I begin that I'm against this type of formatting and would much rather if The Beatles did open their archives it would be in the fashion of deluxe editions of their albums or multi-cd packages devoted to the session work for each album.  However given the way archival releases such as The Beach Boys' "Hawthorne, California" and some of Dylan's bootleg series are formatted (not to mention the Anthology series) perhaps a two disc compilation would be in order.  Most of my track selections have been gleaned from either Lewisohn's/Unterberger's notes or notes on the compiling of the "Anthology" albums.

Disc 1

Now And Then (Completed version that according to VM Paul McCartney has been working on over the past several years)
Love Of The Loved (Decca Auditions 1/1/62)
To Know Her Is To Love Her (Decca Auditions 1/1/62)
Do You Want To Know A Secret (alternate take with full ending from 2/11/63)
From Me To You (alternate take with basic harmonica introduction from 3/5/63)
I Should Have Known Better (alternate take with alternate harmonica solo from John and alternate ending from George from 2/25/64)
And I Love Her (2nd remake from 2/26/64)
If I Fell (early take without guitar intro from 2/27/64)
I'm A Loser (take 2 from 8/14/64)
Every Little Thing (take 4 from 9/29/64 or take 7 from 9/30/64 which apparently contains similar hysterics as the "And Your Bird Can Sing" outtake)
What You're Doing (take 11 from 9/30/64)
She's A Woman (take 5 from 10/8/64)
I Feel Fine (take 5 from 10/18/64)
I Need You (acoustic version from 2/15/65)
Dizzy Miss Lizzy (take 2 from 5/10/65)
She's A Woman (live from Shea Stadium 8/15/65)
Norwegian Wood (acoustic take 3 w/o sitar from 10/21/65)
In My Life (with alternate solo from 10/22/65)
I'm Looking Through You (1st remake from 11/6/65)
Think For Yourself (session extracts from 11/8/65)

Disc 2

Love You To (acoustic take 1 with backing vocals from McCartney from 4/11/66)
Paperback Writer (Stack O' Vocals)
Yellow Submarine (complete with full intro and ending w/o overdubs from 5/26/66)
Nowhere Man (live from Tokyo 7/1/66)
Strawberry Fields Forever (take 4 from 11/28/66 or RM9 from 12/15/66)
Carnival Of Light (Sound Collage excerpts from 1/5/67)
A Day In The Life (take 1 from 1/19/67)
Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band (w/o overdubs from 2/2/67)
Fixing A Hole (take 2 from 2/9/67)
Getting Better (alternate take from 3/9/67)
With A Little Help From My Friends (alternate take w/ McCartney guide vocal from 3/29/67)
Magical Mystery Tour (alternate take from 4/25/67)
Medley: All Together Now/Hey La Le Lu (from 5/12/67)
It's All Too Much (Unedited from 5/26/67)
All You Need Is Love (take 10 from 6/14/67)
Lady Madonna (take 3 from 2/3/68)
Good Night (w/ spoken intro from 6/28/68)
Ob-La-Di-Ob-La-Da (1st remake from 7/8/68)
Sexy Sadie (1st remake from 7/24/68)
Hey Jude (alternate take from 7/30/68)
Yer Blues (take 6 from 8/13/68)
Etcetera (aka "Thingamybob" an unreleased McCartney composition from 8/20/68)
While My Guitar Gently Weeps (first version from 8/16/68 or second version from 9/3/68)
Kansas City/Miss Ann/Lawdy Miss Clawdy (from 1/26/69)
I've Got A Feeling (w/ John Lennon solo vocal featuring Billy Preston on BV from 1/28/69)
I Want You (She's So Heavy) (John Lennon duet with Billy Preston from 1/28/69)
Let It Down (from 1/29/69)
The Ballad Of John & Yoko (session excerpts/alternate version from 4/14/69)
Oh! Darling (take 26 with alternate vocal from 4/26/69)
You Never Give Me Your Money (take 30 from 7/1/69)
Golden Slumbers/Carry That Weight (take 1 from 7/2/69)
Maxwell's Silver Hammer (with complete intro from 7/10/69)
Something (take 37 with alternate vocal from 7/11/69)
Here Comes The Sun (alternate take from 7/7/69 or final take with alternate guitar solo from 7/16/69)
Who Slapped John?/Be-Bop A Lula (from 7/24/69)
Medley: Hey Majesty (take 3 with final chord) & Goodbye (McCartney demo from spring 1969)

Very little does unfortunately.  In the sixties it was custom for record companies to preserve tape whenever possible so according to George Martin while he often recorded The Beatles' rehearsals, he almost always wiped over those rehearsals with proper takes of the song in question.  The few rehearsals that do survive for the most part would be products of chance when the proper takes of a song did not manage to wipe all of the rehearsals present on the tape.

Yeah, but I've already got a great deal of the stuff you mention.  I was focusing on stuff that hasn't even been heard or bootlegged, of which there really isn't much.  

The reason the Smile release was so significant, even though it too had mostly been "heard", is because it stood to really reframe or even rehabilitate the Beach Boys legacy in the public eye, which generally tends to be somewhat fragmented (arty vs. fun & sun, etc.).  None of the Beatles material is really significant enough to do that, leaving aside the fact that the Beatles legacy is not really in any need of rehabilitation!  It means something for a long-suppressed work of great ambition to finally be given a place in the "official" catalog, but it really doesn't "mean" that much whether the Esher demos or every scrap of the Threetles sessions gets officially released, does it?  

I mean, yeah, I'd like to have or hear "everything" someday too but ultimately all those bandmember quotes JohnMill posted seem really right on to me.  This is all about extremely niche fan-interest stuff, not vital missing pieces of the Beatles legacy.  The Beatles catalog is the most untainted, undiluted one of any rock band for a reason, and I'm in favor of that.  

No offense but I put this argument right alongside those who argued for years that "The Beach Boys should never reunite because at their current age, they are only capable of creating music that will taint their legacy".  People need to realize once and for all that nothing that The Beatles or The Beach Boys or many of those legendary groups do now until forever will taint the legacy they established for themselves in the sixties.  The people who have a genuine interest in outtakes and alternate versions will continue to pursue them until probably the ends of time as a matter of extreme passion for the groups that they enjoy.  The people who are not interested those sorts of things won't and quite frankly both groups can continue to coexist quite nicely.  As for the bands themselves, I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that their music will continue to sell regardless of what they release (or don't release) in the future.  

So don't worry so much about tainting the brand as it's never going to happen.

On that particular occasion, George Martin made a point to keep the tape rolling constantly, hoping that any studio banter could be used for a Beatles Christmas fan club EP.

I'm sorry, but phrasing as if it's some hardship that the 'collectors circuit' has to 'deal with' and then saying that these releases aren't things you feel entitled to does not compute, honestly. I can understand wanting to hear it, but it's ultimately their decision and if they honestly feel this stuff is not good enough for public consumption, well, we aren't the ones to tell them otherwise. They might come around to it, like BW did with Smile. Hell, it's entirely likely they'll die at some point and it'll come out then. But it boils down to 'I don't have it. I want it.'

In terms of your two-cd tracklisting (which I respect you admit isn't a viable option for release), it really does show the paucity of stuff left in The Beatles' vault - we are talking four unreleased compositions here and alternate takes which may not differ wildly at all from either the released versions or Anthology takes. As Beatles obsessive as I can get, the words 'alternate guitar solo' or 'basic harmonica take' don't really make my heart soar with joy or encourage me to throw my wallet at Apple Corp. Therein lies the rub.

Also, like Smile, we don't know how much of this stuff exists anymore.

While I agree that we aren't the ones to tell Camp Beatle what to or what not to release, without voices of dissent we would be a society boiled down to what one of my old college professors referred to as the "least common denominator in terms of group think" which I personally believe is something that may heavily dominate the thinking within Camp Beatle.  Perhaps they do need a fresh set of eyes in there who knows?  But then again I'll just as readily admit that opinion is based on several brief quotations made by members of that fraternity in articles where there were asked by journalists about future prospects of releasing more archival material.  If Camp Beatle is truly uncomfortable with the prospects of releasing this stuff (at least in the present tense) they aren't going to rave about what is left in the vaults or even saying anything positive about it as it would do nothing but cast them in a negative light ("We have all this great stuff but we aren't ever releasing it") so instead they tend to downplay any questions regarding their archives.

So to me that isn't at all entitlement at least on my part.  It's just a difference of opinion based on the knowledge of the facts at hand.  For The Beatles to come out in the press and basically deem what is left in the archives to be rubbish is the hardship that the collector's circuit deals with everyday.  The fact that there is a disconnect between the band and those who follow them that doesn't seem to exist with any other band of their ilk in music.  Now personally (as you could probably tell) I already have such a low opinion of Camp Beatle when it comes to matters such as these that I don't get my knickers all in a twist about it anymore.  I'm still interested and hopeful that one day I get to hear this stuff but quite frankly I'm pretty much resigned to the fact that it isn't going to happen until "many years from now" due to the circumstances I've already outlined.  

As far as the paucity of stuff left in The Beatles vault, as I admitted unless they start aiming a series of discs at the collector's circuit (or including a track here or there as bonus tracks on various releases) there really isn't a commercial market for this stuff.  But don't confuse the commercial aspect of the subject matter with the value of these recordings themselves to the collector.  While I respect your claim about being "Beatle obsessive" there are Beatles fans that would literally give up several months wages to hear some of the "alternate guitar solo" takes I outlined so maybe you aren't "Beatle obsessive" as you tend to think you are?  I don't know only you can answer that one.

The one question I can answer is all of this stuff does still exist in the archives.  Lewisohn reported on virtually all of this stuff back in 1988 in "The Complete Beatles Recording Sessions" so it was certainly available for his perusal and analysis then.  Also in 1988 engineer Alan Rouse actually copied the entire archive over into digital format ostensibly as a safety measure to guard against things going missing in the future.  So the entire archive is certainly available now in digital format.  I remember reading a few years back that this process may have been repeated one further time in recent years prior to the "Love" project but I'm not sure on that.

Also in contrast to material being lost forever, the exact opposite seems to be the trend with The Beatles.  The alternate versions of "Love Me Do" and "Please Please Me" that are on "Anthology 1" were found during the compiling of the "Anthology" albums (Martin found "Love Me Do" in his broom closet!) and prior to that many archival recordings from the year 1962 were thought lost for years.  Likewise "Etcetera" which was also thought lost to time (as it was taken out of EMI Studios by Macca back 1968) was allegedly located during a recent trove of McCartney's archives while searching for rare solo material for a proposed Wings box set a few years back.  

Edit: Also while I readily admit that the compilation I suggested has little commercial value in terms of marketing to the general record buying public, if aimed towards the collector's circuit it easily has as much value as one of the recent installments (Volume 7?) of the Dylan Bootleg Series I picked up which is mainly a hodge-podge of Bob Dylan alternate takes which probably only hold value to the Dylan collector.

I'm enjoying this discussion immensely, I however disagree, with John Mill's hypothetical release, I think there are a good half
dozen releases that could do stunning business, or be used as bonus material on remixed albums. Allow me to demonstrate
two stand alone albums I think would do very very well.



THE BEATLES SESSIONS (revamped from the original 1985 idea)
note, 13 of these did appear on Anthology, but with bad mixes, a remix
would make them sound much better. FAAB & RL also appeared on Antholgy
the rest has not appeared



THE BEATLES SESSIONS ALBUM (studio recordings not found on any proper album or single)

1- Free As A Bird
2- Now and Then
3-All For Love
4- Real Love
5- Blue Moon Of Kentucky
6-Baby What you want me to do
7-Carnival Of Light
8-SOur Milk Sea (new mix from Lomax multitrack, lead vocal by Harrison)
9- I lost My LIttle Girl   (lennon vocal, let it be sessions)
10 All Things Must Pass  (composite mix from assorted Let it Be takes)
11 Etcetera  (McCartney white album ditty on acoustic ala Blackbird or Junk)
12  Who Slapped John  (abbey road outtake, Gene Vincent cover)
13  Peggy Sue Got Married   ( I me Mine outtake, Harrison on vocal)
14   Dig It Long Version    (from let it be, five minutes instead of fifty seconds)
15 Come And Get it
16 Leave My Kitten alone
17 Not Guilty
18 I'm Looking Through You (alternate version)
19 What's The New Mary Jane
20 How Do You Do It
21 Besame Mucho
22 One After 909 (1963 version)
23  If You've Got Trouble
24  That Mean's A Lot
25 While My Guitar Gently Weeps  (love version with George Martin strings)
26  Mailman Bring me No More Blues
27 Christmas Time is Here Again (new mix featuring only music and vocals, no spoken word overlay)


That particular album would have about half on Anthology in inferior mixes, and about half would be totally new songs


The BEatles Christmas album
1 1963
2 1964
3 1965
4 1966
5 1967
6 1968
7 1969

Plus additional outtake footage from these sessions, and additional studio banter like the
THink For Yourself vocal session, the Lennon Lucy From Littletown, and McCartney also has a couple
of comedy things, it would probably be ok, to add You Know My Name Look up the number as it probably
fits the wacky theme.


Ok so there is two albums I would like to see, I';; leave you with one more I think would be great

The Beatles White Demos, recorded at Kinfauns Esher George Harrisons house, 1968 before the proper
studio sessions got underway

1-Back In The USSR
2 Dear Prudence
3-Ob La Di Obla Da
4-Bungalow Bill
5-While My Guitar Gently Weeps
6-I'm So Tired
7- Blackbird
8-Piggies
9 Rocky Raccoon
10-Not Guilty
11-Singalong Junk
12-Julia
13- Yer Blues
14-Mother Natures Son
15-Every BOdy's Got Something To Hide except for me & my
16-Sexy Sadie
17- Sour Milk Sea
18-Revolution
19-Honey Pie
20- Cry Baby Cry
21-What's The New Mary Jane
22- Circles (colliding circles)
23-Child Of Nature
24-Julia Instrumental
25- Mean Mr Mustard
26-Polythene Pam
27 Happiness is a Warm gun


There may be a couple more of these white demos. but that gives you the idea, high quality unplugged home\
recordings of essentially the entire White album, with just a couple songs that weren't demoed.


To me all three of these are not niche albums, but big sellers, maybe now JOhn Could compile the ultimate Alternate
take guide, maybe a book should come with each album explaining each tracks history.

Maybe I am so out of touch, with the world and music business, I don't think so, I didint even touch on live albums
or alternate takes, because that's not my area, but this is not scraping the bottom of the barrel, this is some good stuff
granted, it's not as good as Abbey Road, Sgt Pepper or The White album., but there is tons of good stuff here, I Just
listed three albums that made sense to me, staying away from live and alternate takes, (with two exceptions)

now an album of the best alternate takes would be what? are there more John?


Or again, all this could be bonus material on the accompanying remixed album. It's more fun this way though

Two points:

First archival releases are rarely big sellers.  Bruce Springsteen might be the exception in that category I don't know but I believe his "Live 75-85" and "Tracks" boxset were the few of it's kind devoted entirely to archival material that sold well comparatively speaking.  The Beatles "Anthology" actually reported diminishing returns as that series went along and you have to remember that was back when The Beatles had their entire archives at their disposal.  For any future archival releases you would likely have to discount the material that has already been previously issued on "Anthology" which is why I don't consider your "Sessions" compilation to be feasible.  

The "Sessions" LP would have actually been a great idea in the eighties (especially coming off the back of the "Rarities" LP from 1980 I believe) and I'll even go so far as to guessing that it would have been a big seller given both it's compact nature and the fact that at that time most of the music contained on that album was generally unheard by the public.  That opportunity however has now long since passed on.  Even back in 1985 EMI knew what was the best of the lot as far as unreleased songs went in their archives and basically dried up that well with the material they proposed for "Sessions" and later released on "Anthology".  As far as outtakes go, even I have to admit that what is left in the vault is clearly a step below what is already featured on "Anthology".

The bottom line is archival releases by and large are aimed at collectors not the general public and therefore report back far smaller sales figures than projects marketed towards the general public.  Again maybe I'm just ignorant to the facts, but outside of Springsteen I don't think there have been any archival box sets that have done monumental business.

Secondly in regards to your alternate takes question: I took around a half hour last night going through Lewisohn once again to compile that listing of alternate takes noting each alternate version that Lewisohn mentioned as being different from it's released counterpart.  I ignored minor differences (such as the difference between take 1 of a given song and take 4) and instead concentrated on deviating versions where the arrangement of the song was different or in some cases represents an occasion where a song was remade entirely.  In other cases I made note of alternate takes that were once marked "best" by The Beatles on the various tape boxes meaning at one point they were considered to be the master take until they went back later and remade the song.  So the alternate versions I listed for the most part are the best of the rest according to Lewisohn and in some cases those who compiled the "Anthology" series.

Those are points well taken John, but I disagree. Beatles Anthology sold somewhere between ten and twenty million copies, no wonder it started to
tail off, if the third installment had, had one or even two new songs, I'm sure sales would have gone up again.

The revamped Sessions album I proposed, I think would do very well, the tracklisting I had, included about a dozen Beatles songs, not released
anywhere!

Another thing I think would do very well. Is a new animated film in the tradition of Yellow Submarine. In fact there is a guy on the internet
who did some cartoon animation, and uses actual Beatle dialogue, from the Christmas records, various press conferences, Lennon's readings
of some of his poems, from In His Own Write and Spaniard in the Works. The only problem, is the guy's animation, is not up to standard. If it
looked as good as the graphics for the Beatles Rock Band game, it would be a winner. Write a little plot and story, add a couple characters, and
use the actual Beatle dialogue as much as possible. And inject some of the better unreleased songs, along with a few Beatle hits never seen in
a movie, and voila! Big smash.


Or really John I don't care, we know the Beatles catalogue will receive new mixes as the Yellow Submarine and Let it Be Naked proved.
and the Love album. When they remix the albums, add all this stuff as bonus material on disc two or three, I don't care how they do it
just so long, as some of that stuff becomes available. Every single big act from the classic rock era offers these bonus tracks, previously
unreleased, rarties, unknown songs, alternate takes, when they release a repackage. Witness, The recent Pink Floyd or the recent Quadrophenia
with about a dozen of Townsend's demo's, as well as half the album being mixed in 5.1, Pink Floyd went further with immersion boxes, videos
where live concerts corresponding with the particular album were included. As well as rare or unreleased tracks.

The Kinks have been issuing a ton of rare songs on their reissues. Queen made an entire new album with Freddie Mercury fragments
after his death. These projects made big money.

I could care less what the best marketing strategy is, just get it out to the public. Please. This begs one question, if the Beatles aren't going
to do this kind of thing, and the remasters was basically the end of the line, except for reissuing Magical Mystery Tour the film, and perhaps
Let it Be, then why have a large permanent staff, and an expensive executive like Jeff Jones (known for archival releases) why have this
overhead and staff if you aren't really going to be doing anything? It seems like an office with three or four people would be plenty for a company
with no big plans. They just issued all the "other" Apple artists, Billy preston, Badfinger, James Taylor etc. I believe a singles box for all those
Apple groups. You mean to tell me, they would go through the trouble of doing that. But they won't bother to release Now and Then or Carnival
Of Light.


I give up whatever John. Millions of people would love to hear that stuff, most people aren't even aware of it, but would be interested if they knew.

Yoko released the most God awful album of Lennon home demo's about five or six years ago, I forget the name. Just awful quality. This Beatle stuff
should come out. Like any other company, if customers want a product they should write the company in question, and tell Jeff Jones, Hey we would
like to hear this stuff, or at the very least, have the company issue a statement about any plans or lack of plans and why.


I don't know what the salary of a respected high level record executive is, for a guy like Jeff Jones, but he was known for mining gold out of the
archives, he doesn't come cheap. If you aren't gonna let the guy mine the archives (his specialty) why would he want to stay, and why would you
want to pay a high profile guy like that? for what reason?


Just the absence of information on the whole Beatles reunion period, and what was recorded, creates suspicion. When Bootleggers, started making
a killing marketing all that stuff, that's when the Anthology came out. Just afterwards. The only problem, no bootlegger is gonna get close to those
recordings now. But They must be protecting something. Do you realize how much it costs to maintain a climate controlled environment with security
for all those recordings,  Of course they are all transferred to digital safety copies by now. But still the cost of permanent security, That must be quite
a bit of money for something, where there is nothing there worth issuing. Of course there is more there in the archives, than any of us have a clue about
and now that EMI has gone kaput, and Universal owns the show, I would think they would be anxious to get some of their investment back.

You have a lot of good points in there VM.

Re: Anthology #3, I wonder if "buyer fatigue" was starting to set in anyway; after vols. 1 and 2 did so FABULOUSLY well, there was bound to be some let down.

I personally am hoping for archival releases of Shea, The Hollywood Bowl, the complete Sweden, etc.  There are several concerts that have terrific commercial potential.  Nor sure if the big wigs at Apple/EMI agree.

I haven't gone through every post in this thread(some are rather long lol) so forgive me if this has been brought up already. The full version of Dig It is about 15 minutes long, not 5 minutes. The 5 minutes version was just an edit for the movie. I've heard the full 15 minute version, but I very highly doubt that it would be releaseable. The 15 minute version that I have heard features Linda Eastman's daughter on "vocals". She basically just yells and moans, much like Yoko Ono. The 15 minute version has this "vocal" very high up in the mix. It actually kind of hurts to try to get through the whole thing.  ;D

From the top of my head, there are two unreleased recordings of The Beatles that are very interesting and would probably be the highlights of any archival release. One of them is an alternate version of What You're Doing that is in a different key, and as a result sounds quite different than the officially released version. The other is an alternate take of I'm So Tired with alternate guitar and organ overdubs. In this version there is a very unique "call and response" between John's vocal and George's(?) guitar. Other than a brief very off key note from John, it is infinitely superior to the album version, and should have at the very least been included on the Anthology set. Here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAtJKqpohvE

This is a fake recording the guitar in the background is a joke.. Yeah??

Where did you hear that? I've heard and read about it for a number of years, and this is the only time I've ever read about it being a fake.

A lot of the comments on the video are questioning its legitimacy too. If it is George, it's pretty lousy guitar work at the end.

That guitar doesn't sound like Harrison at all to me. It's pretty unimaginative too. Obviously fake.

Could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure it's legit.

I first heard it on a CD called "Control Room Monitor Mixes" which had earlier takes of stuff like "I Am The Walrus" and "For No One". Whoever made the tape (which sounds like a tape recorder capturing the sound of the master tapes being played on control room monitors.. hence the title) was isolating the different tracks as the tapes played. Vocals, guitars, drums etc. One cool thing was hearing the drum track on For No One which isn't audible on the final version.  All of the quality is the same, and they were definitely isolating stuff that can't just be OOPS'd. So I THINK it probably is a real guitar part that they mixed out of the final version.

Has the Original Poster set sail for other ports?  hope not!

I dunno. Did anybody show him where the delete button was?  >:D

j/k I liked reading his posts and he usually provokes good discussions.  ;)

I have no idea if that White album stuff is real, I suspect it is, and in those days, as you young guys may not know.
Multitrack recording machines, used to have a sync button, sometimes you had to overdub out of sync, and only later
when they patched in the mix, would you hear everything in sync. Maybe that board mix or rough mix, just wasn't in sync.


Anyway here is an interesting story to ponder. I am trying to keep better notes than I used to, because I think Beatle
employees delete these stories on the internet sometimes, when people try and go back and find them for research.

Anyway after George Harrison was stabbed by that lunatic, he did recover for awhile before getting sick again, and when
he was feeling vulnerable and out of sorts from the attack, he told someone, I forget who, a friend or reporter, he said
I really need to get Paul McCartney over here, and do some playing and recording with him. Meaning over to George's
home studio at Friar Park....

There is no further record in the public archives, about whether that ever happened or not.

Here is another interesting aside, that will tie all this together in a moment. In the 79 Rolling Stone interview
with George Harrison about his first new album in three years, (George Harrison 1979) the reporter tells us
Harrison just got back for the interview, because he (Harrison) had spent the day in the recording studio with Paul
McCartney. NO further details were ever given, what Harrison just spent the day in the studio with McCartney!

Then as I stated in an earlier post, in 1981 shortly after Lennon's death, McCartney, went over to Harrison's to sing
on the Beatle reunion track, "All Those Years Ago" a Harrison song about Lennon, with harmony vocals by McCartney,
Ringo on drums, and Harrison on Lead vocals and guitar, I think Herbie Flowers played bass, and George Martin adapted
or wrote the string line, played I believe by Al Kooper. I think.. Anyway just in the last couple years, McCartney talking
about that session, says that He went over to Harrisons, to get George To play guitar on Wanderlust from the Tug of War
album released in 1982. Ringo Plays on that album, and clearly McCartney wanted Tug Of War, to be some kind of Beatle
reunion, with George Martin producing. But crafty Harrison outfoxed him, got him on All Those Years ago, and begged off
never playing on the Tug of War tracks.

After the Beatle reunion in 94-95 McCartney releases the very very Beatley "flaming pie" album in 97, no doubt in my
mind again, McCartney would have like Harrison involved, Ringo plays drums and sings on two tracks, George Martin does
some Beatley string arrangements, and Harrison Pal Jeff Lynne co-produces, the song Flaming Pie, by the way, is about
a remark Lennon made to the press, when they asked him where the name Beatles came from. Lennon replied (around 1963)
" A man on a flaming pie came to me in a dream, and he said to me, you shall be Beatles with an A!!!!!"" That quote used
to be easily found on line with Lennon saying that. But the links to that seem to have disappeared, so if anybody has that?


OK so these are some nice obscure stories, what's my point?

Well Let me answer that. First a couple more examples, then I'll tie it together for you, if you haven't already come to
a conclusion. OK?

Sometime around pre Cloud Nine, lets say around 84 or so, And forgive my lack of citing sources, but this is all well known
stuff to Beatles freaks and scholars, sometime in the early eighties,  there was a big public story, McCartney wants to write
songs with George Harrison! The world press trumpets! All our little Beatle hearts skipped a beat I can tell you!

So Harrison goes on TV Maybe for Gone Troppo or Shanghai surprise, I forget what, and Harrison answers that question
he says, Paraphrasing now "Well I've been around for 25 years, Paul could have asked me anytime to do that, maybe
it's a little late now" then Harrison adds "maybe its a good idea I don't know, I'll have to think about it"

OK, Lets flashback to around 1977-79, McCartney drops by the Dakota in New York several times over the years to
hang out with Lennon,  They hang out a few times, Lennon finally says (Lennon talks about this to Rolling Stone in 1980)
Lennon says, hey it's not 1958 anymore, you cant just drop by I have the baby (Sean) etc etc. They also do the "they almost
went and played live on Saturday Night Live" for a hundred bucks one nights.

Also actually Lennon and McCartney actually had one songwriting session, nobody knows what the name of the song is,
and there was a second writing session, but Yoko and her staff intervened, and told Paul Lennon was not home, and they
told Lennon McCartney never showed up that day.

OK, finally recently Jack Douglas,   Lennon record producer on Double Fantasy, let slip, that Lennon and McCartney had
agreed, to record and write together, for Ringo's new album, which later became "Stop and Smell The Roses" 1981, both
McCartney and Harrison contribute heavily to the album, but Lennon's contributions were never used,because of his death.
Although we know two songs, Nobody Told Me There's be Days Like These, and Life Begins at 40 were slated for the album
Maybe One of those is the one McCartney co wrote with Lennon who knows.


There was also testimony by May Pang about 1974-5 Lennon was gonna go to New Orleans and record on McCartney's
Venus and Mars album, but he went back to Yoko instead, so he didn't, in fact McCartney acted as a go between and talked
to Yoko on John's behalf, and John went home to her instead. He didn't record in the studio again until Double Fantasy.


So what is the point of all those stories, well two points, One McCartney made strong overtures to write and record with
a Beatles reunion on several occasions, actually going t John's, going to George's, writing songs in a Beatley style, hooking
up with George Martin,   Ringo always went along and played with Paul, Lennon intended to, but died, and Harrison always
played hard to get, perhaps feeling some resentment, or stress, he loved Paul, but not until 94-95 did a reunion take place.

OK one more clue, this will put it in place for you,   in around 2008, or 2009, someone asked Dhani Harrison at a rock concert in
Coachella California, about a box set of Harrison rarities, Dhani Harrison, got upset, said he had a set ready for several years, but
EMI had given him grief about releasing the material he had chosen for the set.

Then Dhani Harrison said "you have no idea what's in my dad's archives, you have no freaking idea"

What does that mean? we know there are Beatle Demos, unreleased albums and songs, demos, all kinds of stuff, live
stuff from the Dark Horse tour, we know all that  already, what did Dhani Harrison mean? we already know Clapton, Ringo
Ray Cooper, The guys from Deep Purple, Neil Innes, Jools Holland from the Squeeze, Joe Brown, we know those guys went over
and recorded dozens or hundreds of songs, regular songs, ukulele songs from the thirties, we know all that...



OK so we know two things, one Paul McCartney tried very hard on numerous occasions to interest Lennon and Later
Harrison in recording.   We know Harrison recorded zillions of unrecorded songs, privately for his own amusement, this
is where the "Brainwashed tracks were culled from in part"


Are there secret Harrison, McCartney, Starr recordings in Harrison's archives, I tend to bet there a few, they did write and
record "ALL FOR LOVE" Together  in 1995 for the Anthology reunion, they argued, Harrison pulled the plug, then later
Harrison and McCartney got very close again, towards the end, are there more secret Harrison/McCartney   recordings,
Threetles recordings, done just for their own pleasure. I Think there are , do I have proof.

All I have is the circumstantial case I just laid out for you. There is a lot going on in Denmark (beatle world) Ladies and Gentleman
that we don't have a foggy clue about. Not only will the Beatles, so far, refuse to release Now and Then and All For Love, or even
talk about it, but I think the Harrison and McCartney archives have stuff that has never been discussed openly ever.
purely a circumstantial case, but after over a decade of study, that's what I think

The desire to not reignite Beatlemania,, the desire to stay low profile, Lennon was murdered, another nutcase tried to kill
Harrison, I saw Ringo at the studio, sure enough he travels with security, but I digress.

What was Harrison doing with McCartney in the studio in 1979? as he says in the Rolling Stone interview, what happened
to the song, Lennon McCartney wrote at the Dakota? where's the tape? Keith Badman says in his book, Lennon made a studio
recording of "Life Begins at 40 for Ringo" The Bootleg demo we have heard is clearly not the studio recording.


There is a lot more unreleased Beatles, and Beatle reunion stuff, that we have no idea about, that's my view. I have no interest
in intruding on the privacy of the Beatles, but I sure as hell want to hear the recordings, and read about the sessions as we did in
Lewishons. book. Guess who knows abut this,  Mark Lewishon, Guess when his book covering all this stuff is due to come out, in about
10-15 years. I"ll be dead by then probably, I'd like to read about, and hear that stuff, while I am still breathing

Anybody got something to add..

There was also the time where Mccartney, Harrison and Starr reunited for an impromptu jam when they all attended Eric Clapton's wedding in 1979. Supposedly John later said that he would have gone too had he been invited.

My feeling about archive releases from the Fabs is this: they are known as the #1 group of all time, and they don't like to put anything out unless it is a guaranteed #1. Yellow Submarine Songtrack and Let it Be Naked were exceptions. The Anthology albums were all chart toppers, although each sold less than the one before it. It was gonna be hard to top that network premiere of the Anthology series and Free As a Bird. You can only have the first new Beatles song in 25 years once. The 1 CD was a no brainer, fans had been clamoring for a single disc hits collection for years - still seems silly that the Red Album has to be spread out over 2 cd's, it could easily fit on one with room to spare. If they had any intention of putting out further rarities, they would have done so by now. The Beatles at the Hollywood Bowl should have been on cd years ago; Shea Stadium footage was cleaned up for use in the Anthology, ditto for Let it Be. Paul doesn't like LIB because parts of it show the Fabs being less than fab; Shea? Who knows. In a better world, they would have something similar to Dylan's Bootleg Series, or the FTD (Follow That Dream) label that releases rare Elvis stuff. Not gonna happen.

Well friend, your views are the prevailing views, of deep Beatles and classic rock fans who post on these type of forums.
I certainly hope you are wrong in spades.


Remember no one ever thought the anthology with several new songs being recorded would ever happen. It was unthinkable.
Now with only two Beatles left, and pushing 70 years old no new or additional Beatle recordings are possible. However there
are two more reunion songs in the can, and it was fair game for McCartney to finish off Now And Then, after all it was intended for
this purpose when Yoko gave them the tape. All For Love was created for the same reasons, except it gave Paul and George a chance
to write and sing, which any Beatle reunion needs, a writing/singing contribution from McCartney and Harrison. Sour Milk Sea can easily
be outfaked into a legit White Album type record, Carnival of light, though noncommercial, is a historic important piece. Plus all the other
songs and recordings we have talked about in the thread.

The Beatles are people like anybody else, who can change their mind anytime, and they have, and hopefully will again, McCartney
has wanted this stuff out, although this isn't a big issue to these Busy, wealthy ex Beatles and their widows, from time to time
they have an awareness of this issue, and I personally don't accept the idea it is taboo, or out of bounds, or some group of Apple
records lawyers or employees, have decreed it's out of bounds. Hell no. I believe the Beatles would be moved to reconsider if the
case was brought to their attention. We have an army of self serving employees, who believe it won't make money or it will damage
the legacy or whatever views they hold. I remind you again, Jeff Jones  was brought on board at Apple to take over for Neil Aspinall
and Jones is an archival specialist, whose greatest accomplishment in the professional world of music executives, was his oversight
and compilation of terrific sets of Archival music from name artists. This is the man's specialty. He doesn't come cheap.

The question in my mind becomes, how to best package this remaining material in a profitable and tasteful way. Simply an anthology
four or download bonus tracks, misses the boat on something, if done right could be very very big, true they shot their wad on the anthology
but in retrospect, as John Mill so clearly pointed out, there is a helluva lot of good stuff remaining in the archives.

very quiet whispers deep inside Apple, indicate two competing plans, one a new stand alone compilation album of some kind featuring
both well known and unreleased material, or two, some sort of remixed Beatle catalogue on the later albums, including bonus discs of
extra tracks, alternate mixes and so forth.


Maybe Olivia or Dhani Harrison, or someone else has temporarily put a deep six on it. Dhani Harrison wanted to pursue his own
career for a few years before diving back into his fathers archives. Maybe the demise of EMI has had an effect on plans, If you
noticed the ITUNES exclusive was ended the other day, A digital juke box company with fifty thousand machines was given the right
to play Beatles songs in 50,000 locations, that was a first. With the fiftieth anniversary fast approaching, and the Itunes exclusive ending,
with the demise of EMI whom the Beatles hated, for being treated and cheated so badly, there are signs something may be happening.
We are pretty certain a revamped Magical Mystery Tour is coming soon, the film that is. That is not a big release, although it will contain
new audio mixes and bonus footage.

I think in the next two years, many serious analysts expect possibly to see these songs begin to surface. But that is not a sure
thing by any means. But to say the archives is off the table is untrue. There is too much value and history there. Also look at McCartney's
new cloud service, they may be looking at that as a model, for future archival releases. We'll know  more as time goes on.

I certainly hope your views are wrong friend, that would be like the end of summer and no more Apple pie! There are some good
Beatle tracks, and we need to keep reminding them we want to hear it. What would you rather have another greatest hits album?
The archival material and new mixes is all they have left. Paul McCartney is a smart guy, he didn't go in an finish Now And Then not
to use it. I wonder if the engineers cried when they heard the playback, I think they might of.

FYI

This is an interview with Michael Lindsay-Hogg, who speculates that Let It Be "may" see the light of day on DVD/Blu Ray in the year 2012.

Wouldn't it be nice!  (Won't hold my breath though.)

http://www.masslive.com/entertainment/index.ssf/2011/10/the_beatles_let_it_be_and_magi.html

I do hope they change their minds about this stuff. Would love to have a cleaned up Shea disc in my collection, complete Hollywood Bowl concerts, Let it Be on dvd with bonus footage, and whatever is left of the Threetles reunion. But, yeah, not holding my breath.

Well we know for certain that the Mystery Tour footage and Soundtrack was being cleaned up around three years ago by Giles Martin
and the remaster team. Big rumblings about a refurbished Mystery Tour film coming soon, unlike Help and Hard Day's Night, Mystery Tour
had tons of outtake film footage, even a couple of incidental music pieces like "Jessie's Dream" that didn't get used much in the original
film...

I think Mystery Tour (the film) coming out soon is almost a given. It does show the slow timetable used by the Apple gang.. Which bodes
well for things like Now and Then, for some unexplainable reason, it takes them years to bring these projects to completion and release.

When John Lennon was alive, he would write a song Thursday, record it Friday, and have it in the shops and on radio within ten days, things
like Instant Karma for example.

I have another post with more information on hidden reunion tracks, and all that reunion cloak and dagger stuff coming soon.. After that I may
feel that's it, I'm finished, some things were said to me in another thread, I didn't care for. But I did want to see this thread through, first.

As for Let It be coming this year, I just don't know. I do have one untapped source, very close to the top, I have never used the source, and
I think I want to ask about Now and Then and Carnival of Light, rather than Let It Be.

One last thought. With the newer clean copies of Free As A Bird and Real Love that have come to light it would be possible to do a huge sonic
upgrade on both songs, by simply remixing, dropping the cleaner Lennon vocals into the backing track. There was a particular problem with Real
Love it was down a generation or two more even, than Free As A Bird, this would be an easy thing to do, as those mixes were stored on computer
for an automated console I am sure. Sadly when Anthology came out on Itunes recently, it was remastered, but none of the bad mixes or edits had
been fixed.

Major news on this entire subject may be developing. But it may be awhile longer.

The Early 1971 classic Paul McCartney solo album "RAM" with orchestrations by George Martin,
will be re-released in deluxe expanded form with never before released tracks, and other bonus
material, as well as a deluxe book on May 22ND. Pre Order is available now.

Can the remaining unreleased Beatles tracks be far behind?

I've always thought it was odd that George Martin was not credited with doing the orchestrations on Ram, in the liner notes.

They are terrific orchestrations, and really make the album.

Actually the fact that the solo Beatle catalogs are being expanded at the moment probably doesn't bode well for any Beatles projects in the near future.  There seems to be a loose framework when it comes to The Beatles where they don't release new Beatles projects (the recent remasters for instance) at the same time the individual members of the group are releasing solo material.  I would guess the general feeling is any Beatles related release would negatively affect the sales of any solo Beatles release as people are far more likely to buy Beatles releases than releases by John Lennon, George Harrison, Paul McCartney or Ringo Starr.

With Ringo and Paul having recently released new solo projects, this archive series from Paul and the recent Scorsese's documentary on George Harrison hitting the US Market this spring, I don't think any new Beatles releases are going to reach shelves this year perhaps with the exception of a reissue of the "Yellow Submarine" DVD.

Next year however might be a different story.  Who knows?

PS: I read some rumors that there seems to be some conjecture as to just how far McCartney plans to go with this archival series.  The ones that he's already released have not sold all that well and while Macca's solo catalog has it's fair share of great albums, he also has released his fair share of misses which probably would be better off remaining relegated to the bargain bin rather than revisited.

I did not know GM was involved in the album - and I vaguely recall some review of Ram years ago stating that Paul as a producer or arranger was no match for Mr. Martin.  ???

He arranged a lot of the stuff.  I believe Uncle Albert/Admiral Halsey was his handiwork.  Phil Ramone was also heavily involved but may have went uncredited as well?  I've lost since parted with my CD copy of "RAM" and nowhere near my vinyl collection to dig the LP out.  But yeah George Martin to my recollection worked on some of the arrangements on "RAM"

That may be partially true John, but often Beatle releases overlap with solo releases, several examples come to mind off the top of my head.
You yourself just said, Yellow Submarine is coming out yet again, and Ringo and Paul both just launched new studio albums, and the Ram archival
release, and we are just getting more marketing for the Harrison soundtrack bonus disc from the documentary, so that's four solo and one Beatle
thing, more or less happening all at once.

We also just got a second Beatle release of sorts, where the Itunes exclusive on digital content was partially broken allowing this jukebox company
to offer jukebox Beatles in 50,000 locations, I guess this is a substitute for the old fashioned juke box with the actual 45's inside.

Also we know of a plan developing to celebrate the Beatlels 50th anniversary of "Love Me Do" later this year. No word yet on what that might be
a new compilation album, previously unseen or remastered tv appearances, who know's. Possibly the (Hopefully) unreleased songs we have talked about..


In 1973 there was (at that time) the Biggest Beatles albums ever, the red and blue compilation albums. Along with solo releases by John, Paul,George and Ringo.
In fact McCartney released two solo albums in 73 as well as the Live and Let die single on the film soundtrack

In 99 there was Yellow Submarine Songtrack, and McCartney's Run Devil Run.

The Beatles Love, Chaos and Creation   nearly overlapped I think? and two Ringo albums, a live one and a studio one Choose Love, sometimes these albums
are just weeks or months apart.

But yes to some degree, they seem to alternate. At least sometimes.

Ram reissue was supposed to be paired with Venus and Mars reissue at the same time, maybe they just aren't selling, or they  are leaving room
for something special late this year. I don't think EMI/Universal can release anything without the Beatles agreement. At least for group albums.
There is a lot of belief that The Mystery Tour movie will be coming later this year. I don't think thats enough of a bang for fifty years, look what the Beach Boys
are doing, world tour, new studio album, the Smile Box Set and further archival releases, and the new Smile Book...

Again its been several years now, the remasters are long since peaked, the digital downloads are old news, fifty years is coming in just over six months I
hope against all hopes that to celebrate fifty years since the first record with Ringo, that they will release something special, namely the unreleased tracks,
if that isin't a great built in promotional tool then I don't know what to say.

We know many of the Beatles albums have been totally remixed, some of it was issued on the Rockband game. Unreleased tracks, remixed albums with
Bonus tracks, and a couple more films. I don't see what other cards they have to play, what's the point of the big staff then and Jeff Jones? hell they even
released all the other groups that were signed to Apple. all the singles and albums. Remixed albums, Mystery Tour Let it Be (the films) and the unreleased songs.
They could also get a hell of a release by compiling all the promotional song films on one or two cd's in remastered sound and restored video..


Next year is fine, with me, but the fiftieth anniversary is this year. They have to see the millions starting to be raked in by the Beach Boys for their fiftieth


I can see the promotional headline now John   something along these lines

" And now the greatest show on earth, The Beatles return to celebrate fifty years, with seven new tracks,& their greatest hits, remixed in modern digital sound
with a bonus disc of all the Beatles groundbreaking aheadof their time promotional song videos

Seven new songs! Never before heard,   Twenty five restored videos, and their 25 greatest hits all remixed, with new liner notes from Paul McCartney
& Ringo Starr and George and Giles Martin.. Also a new coffee table book written by Mark Lewishon, the beatles post 1970
New songs include, Now and Then, Carnival Of Light, Sour Milk Sea, All For Love and more!
Pre order now from Amazon, music only 59.95 or deluxe version with book, two discs of promotional videos, and four extra bonus tracks $199


I am all over that John, just as a hypothetical release, and if you pay for the ultra deluxe $319 five disc version, you get the complete Shea concert in HD
and  remixed versions of Free As A Bird, and Real Love, and the new Bonus video of Now and Then, included audio only on versions one and two, version
three super deluxe, also has the Now and Then Video, directed by Bob Smeaton.


So you tell me John, would you rather have that or  Magical Mystery tour with 11 minutes of new footage. and a deluxe writing pen for an additional
$179 USD


I think I'd rather have the hypothetical one I described.

Points well taken VM although I was specifically speaking of Beatles releases that actually had a chance of competing with solo Beatles releases.  With all due respect to the "Yellow Submarine" DVD or the "Love Me Do" reissue neither release falls into that category. 

As far as the other releases you cited, as I'm sure you can appreciate the seventies were a completely different market than the one that exists today.  I mean for godsakes we still had all four Beatles still roaming the earth and releasing new material.  Their music was also a lot closer to being viewed as contemporary than it is today where even Paul McCartney's legacy is mainly tied to his work with The Beatles.  So different environment, different era, different philosophy.  All you need to know is as far as the current market goes, The Beatles don't issue major releases in the years when they are trying to move their individual solo catalogs.  There seems to be a philosophy of group first, individual members second going back to what I initially noted which is the notion that given the current market people are far more likely to purchase a Beatles release than a solo Beatles release when they have the option of buying either/or.

As far as what releases I'd like to see: I'm actually pretty stoked for the Harrison rarities disc being released stateside along with the "RAM" deluxe edition.  I haven't picked up any of Macca's deluxe edition packages yet but I might make an exception for RAM being that it's both a quality record and apparently also a record with some interesting outtakes and demos attached to it.

John we don't know what the Love Me Do release is going to consist of, It's not that they  are trying to re-release the song Love Me Do necessarily, it's
that the song is the fiftieth anniversary of the Beatles first record, there are earlier pre Ringo demos, so one could argue, that the Beatles formed in 1958.
But 1962 is the fiftieth of John, Paul, George and Ringo, and rumblings are coming out of EMI, that something, (we don't know what) is in the works.
Heavy scuttlebutt about the Mystery Tour movie, but would that really be a big bang for such a significant date, There has to be more. So Ram is in May
by November maybe we will get a Christmas surprise. I Hope so, giving McCartney's and Ringo's albums six months, and Ram and Yellow Sub and Harrison's
bonus disc, six months seems like plenty of time. None of them are big projects really. So I hope for a big big release near the end of the year. Who know's
like you say maybe pie in the sky, But Jeff Jones has had literally years, to assemble something good, let's hope now is the time.That is late 2012. it would be
easy as heck to tack Carnival of Light onto the new Mystery Tour movie, in some fashion...

Yes, a CD release along these lines would be very exciting imo. Personally, I would place the four main 'reunion' tracks later in the album and perhaps include bits of the Friar Park reunion jam in there if the sound quality's up to it.

A shame that, due to the Beatles group vote thing, we can't have, say, Paul and Ringo take one or two Lennon and/or Harrison demos and 'develop' them into full tracks, ideally  produced by Youth, the other half of McCartney's Fireman project. It appears that there now have to be all four Fabs present on a track to call it a Beatles track, when in their own time, with three, two or even one Beatle present on some tracks, it was still a 'Beatles' track. Strange, as not many people argue that Yesterday or Within You and Without You shouldn't be called Beatles tracks and they both have only one Fab present.  ???  Interesting grey area that. This has been one of the most interesting threads on here for a long time, good stuff  :)

I did include two of the Friar Park jams, in that tracklist.

That wasn't supposed to be a running order, just a basic idea
of what tracks should go on there. I probably forgot a couple.

I didn't get into legendary alternate takes at all "27 minute Helter Skelter"
"alternate Hold me Tight"

I didn't get into that.

For my money something along the lines I proposed sells, several million. With a couple new
videos, lots of promotion, and of course the new songs, no one ever heard before.

If you had a copy of that album I proposed, Along with Past Masters, and the regular
canon of 13 studio albums, you would then have, every decent studio track recorded
by the Beatles, as far as we know. Of course there are numerous, live, alternate take
and demos not included. Which could be used for other releases such as the Beatles
Christmas album, or white album demos.


It would be too simple, make the fans too happy, it won't happen that way. It's almost as if
the people in charge, hate the fans, and see them as less than human, and just feed them dog
crap and tell the to like it. I picture a bunch of Apple employees flitting through the halls in slippers
and bathrobes at midnight, blowing soap bubbles and making jokes about the stupid fans.

I notice the new McCartney Ram reissue, basically uses the paradigm started by Purple Chik several
years ago. I expect that's when we'll finally see the rare songs Like Carnival of Light and Now and Then
on the remixed albums, several years hence. God I hope not I hope not.

The revived sessions albums with Carnival and Now and then and Sour Milk sea, and some new videos
would see a freaking ton, several million easy,

Ladies and Gentleman, The last new Beatles songs in History. one two three four!


There is also about enough to compile an early 68 album, of the Lady Madonna, Across the Universe stuff
that would be like a brand new album, using all the unused 67 early 68 non album tracks.


Oh well, remember, they are flitting the halls in Apple, wearing slippers blowing soap bubbles and laughing
about the idiot fans, while they charge new expensive watches and lunches on their company accounts, I don't
think they are paying much attention to what we want to hear

God please let me be wrong.

Good point, but if we go that difection, they could compile all the tracks post-Fab when the various members helped each other out. Ringo played drums on the John Lennon/Plastic Ono Band album: also played on All Things Must Pass. George and Ringo were both at the Bangadesh concert; all four members appear on various Ringo albums through the years; Ringo played on 3 Paul albums in the 80's; George has Paul and Ringo on "All Those Years Ago"; etc. Actually, the best tracks from those occasional moments together would make for very nice listening.

Here is the Link of Peter Hodgson, seen in numerous photos in 1995 with Paul McCartney.
Several of the photos are taken with McCartney at his "Mill recording studio" on his property.

Hodgson explains in some detail, about the fourth Beatles reunion song "ALL FOR LOVE"

Hodgson's remarks, are directed to Journalist Rip Rense, who first broke the story on the
Beatles third reunion song called "Now And Then" and was elaborating for journalist Rense
and the remarks about the stunning fact, there was a fourth Beatles reunion song!, this time
not one of the Lennon demo's but a new song written apparently by McCartney/Harrison, and
recorded by Paul, George and Ringo, for two days in March 1995.

Oddly Wikipedia made this story disappear, however certain people archived the story, because
of it's importance,and for those of you interested, you can see the photos and read the text
yourself.

http://abbeyrd.best.vwh.net/news/411allforlove.html


Notice, that Hodgson also mentions "Hiroshima Sky is Blue" and of course that Paul/Yoko song
did indeed get released  in Japan, later.

Keith Badman the Beatles author of some good and decent reputation, also verified the story..

Hodgson made other public remarks, that he intended to speak with Paul McCartney and get more
information on ALL FOR LOVE, to clarify any confusion, a few years ago, Hodgson expected to do
that soon. Oddly we never heard another peep out of Hodgson, the story disappeared from Wikipedia
Hodgson who apparently knows McCartney pretty well, either never saw him again, or was somehow
silenced from ever speaking publicly on the matter again.

More info on the Beatles reunion recordings as it becomes available. If anyone knows anything, please
speak up, the Iron curtin of Beatle silence has really been keeping all this quiet, since McCartney spoke
so freely about all this in the mid and late nineties..