The Smiley Smile Message Board

Figure this would be an interesting discussion. Obviously, Pet Sounds and Smile are the mountains of the Beach Boy catalog for various reasons and are the LPs most synonymous with this band to people. But what album should be considered the third branch of their legacy?

I mean, there's two ways to look at this. We could all be subjective and just pick our third favorite (or favorite that isn't named Pet Sounds or Smile) or we could try and reasonably come up with an objective choice. I mean, the possibilities are pretty endless for the latter. Today? Wild Honey? Friends? Surf's Up?

Just thought I'd get the ball rolling. I'll have to ponder this one a bit myself. It's kind of like when a U2 fan tries to figure out what is on the step right below Joshua Tree and Achtung Baby.

U2 matters not...


the answer is Love You.

I think they have several pillars, including Love You, Friends, Holland, Surfer Girl and Today.

I second both of those!
Many will perhaps argue Sunflower. But Love You is certainly the final pillar.

"Brian Wilson is The Beach Boys" - Dennis

Pet Sounds - The greatest emotional album
Smile - The greatest concept album
Love You - The greatest personality album featuring Brian (It's Brian in a nutshell)

 :hat

I think 'Sunflower' because it gives the listener an idea about what the band could do together, as a whole.

I'd go with:
Today - Best pre-66 album
Sunflower - Best of their 2nd era albums
Love You - Best late era album

Definately NOT Love You! It's appeal to those not fascinated/sympathetic re Brian's personal history (i.e. non-Beach Boys fanatics) is, i think, considerably more limited than that of many other of their albums. I've played friends Sunflower, Surf's Up, Wild Honey, etc, all of which have met with enthusiastic responses, whereas Love You generally tends to leave 'em slightly baffled ('They sound weird' being at least one remark).

Today! is an absolutely tremendous album, but I'd pick Holland, as it brilliantly demonstrates the talents of every band member, not just Brian, and is therefore make for a more valid and demonstrative choice than picking another entirely Brian-fronted album.

My vote is for Sunflower and definitely NOT Love You.  :P

Endless Summer definitely. In terms of impact on their overall career it is unmatched.
If we're only counting original albums then I think it would be Sunflower, even though I personally prefer Today!

Tough to use this as criteria for Love You. Limiting is pigeonholing them. Same with sounding different. This was an album that changed direction a bit. A little edgier, and a more original piece of work. In many ways this was Brian's version of New Wave or more like pre-New Wave. It would have been interesting had The Boys followed that direction instead of going backward with MIU.

Pet Sounds and Smile are by far the two most artistically progressive Beach Boys albums. The third most progressive? Pacific Ocean Blue.

Friends.

I know that a lot of people like Sunflower, I find it beautiful too, but it lacks a certain charm that SMiLE, Pet Sounds, and Friends have. To me Pet Sounds has a deeply depressing and beautiful personality. SMiLE has a quirky baroque personality. Friends has a mature, quirky, beautiful personality.

Sunflower to me is just a mash up of incredible songs. The album has no personality to me. Production-wise it never flowed well to my ears...I love every song on that album, but as a whole it just doesn't flow well, imo.

I hear what you're saying but in terms of The Beach Boys my vote has to go for Sunflower.

My favorite album that isn't ps or smile is today.  But if we're talking progressive, then definitely sunflower.  Though I would suggest POB at the same time

I don't like Love You out of "sympathy", I like it because... y'know, I genuinely like it.

Also, does Smile really count considering it never saw any kind of official release until 2011 and isn't even a proper studio album?

Also, I've never heard of this "album pillars" thing. Can't say I care much, nor would I find it psychologically satisfying or something to "complete" it.

I don't think I can honestly come up with a studio album that would be considered the third pillar. And I don't know if I would even consider SMiLE and Pet Sounds to be two separate pillars. The way I see it is that The Beach Boys can be divided into 3.5 distinct sections. The first is from Surfin' Safari to Party!. This is their most recognizable era of music to the public, and it is what they have always and will probably always be best know for. Pet Sounds and SMiLE create the second pillar. This is where The Boys, and especially Brian, were at their most creative and imaginative. Some of my favorite, and many would argue some of the  greatest, music ever recorded. The third pillar to me would be from Smiley Smile to Love You. This is where the other members really stepped up their game and helped flesh out The Beach Boys catalog and avoided the curse of using filler like the earliest albums did. The last half-pillar is the post Love You is the phase where The Beach Boys became a caricature of themselves and released some pretty poor albums, in my opinion. I am hoping a new pillar is created this year with the new album and reunion tour, and hopefully they can put something together that is exciting to listen to even years from now just like most of their catalog.

So I know this is probably not at all what you were looking for, but it's just immediately what I thought of when I saw this thread.    ;D

Agreed. Brian was/is a genius, but he wasn't the whole band. Holland shows what the other guys could do when Brian wasn't around. Now if I wanna scare the s*** out of a new/recent fan of the group....I'll put on Love You, and watch the expression on their face change to "WTF?"

"Surfer Girl"

My third pillar is Sunflower, but the first one isn't PS at all -- it's Wild Honey!

well if its fair to put consecutive albums on a pillar:

pet sounds/smile
all summer long/today/summer days
friends/sunflower
love you
smiley smile/wild honey/surfs up
abbey road/rubber soul/20/20
surfer girl/shut down
little deuce coupe/surfin usa/surfin safari




everything else

the way they are listed really is how i connect with them. its hard for me to think of today without all summer long. its almost as if those three are one huge album. and yes listing the beatles albums was a joke  :)

I'd hate to see Love You as the third pillar..it's so goofy/corny(excluding The Night Was So Young)..definitely Today because it's something most people would enjoy not just beach boys fanatics.

Easy:
1. Beach Boys Today
2. Summer Days (And Summer Nights)
3. Pet Sounds
Bim, bam, boom: the height of Brian.

MIU
KTSA
SIP
 :p

It's hard for me to consider SMILE a pillar....it never came out until 2011? A pillar holds something for support. Artistically progressive....absolutely! 
I'd go with All Summer Long,  (this has always been my favorite BB album) either Today Or Summer Days, and Pet Sounds.

I would say Sunflower. It's the best evidence that contrary to popular belief, The Beach Boys hadn't "lost it" ever since the Smile fiasco. And for that reason I would say it's their third most important album.

Tier 1 - Pet Sounds, Smile

Tier 2 - Sunflower, Surf's Up

Tier 3 - Smiley Smile, Wild Honey, Friends, 20/20

Tier 4 - Today, Summer Days

Tier 5 - Love You, Holland

I think that's the general consensus.

For a big picture consensus guess, I'd say either SUNFLOWER or TODAY.  SUNFLOWER is probably the most universally regarded BBs album outside of the other two, and unlike a lot of the other albums bandied about on this thread, is a very consistent album from a songwriting point of view.  TODAY I would argue be the other choice for its highly praised second "ballad" side, and being a pretty good consolidation of the Boys' classic sound going into PET SOUNDS.

Every other album (with the possible exception of POB if you count that) runs into, in my opinion, issues of consistency that kind of rule them out.  SURF'S UP and HOLLAND have a lot of charm but they're wildly uneven.  I suppose you could argue FRIENDS, but the album is so low key it's sort of anti-statement.  It's got a definite constituency, but not as much as the two albums above.  LOVE YOU has a similar quality...you love it, or hate it.

I always look at the groups career as being in four distinct sections:

Surfin Sarafi - All Summer Long/Christmas Album: THE EARLY YEARS

Today! - Smiley Smile/Wild Honey: THE BRIAN GENIUS YEARS

Friends - Holland/In Concert: THE GROUP YEARS

15 Big Ones - onwards: THE LATER YEARS (aka THE DECLINE)

The concept here is to count TSS as a finished LP? If so it would rank with Pet Sounds and Sunflower to me. I also rank Wild Honey, Today, and All Summer Long as being exceptional.  I like all the 1963-73 albums really. Xmas is only half great but anything after 1973 except POB isn't near what came before. Certain tracks are very good after In Concert but I never loved Love You or came close.

Aren't you the person who likes the White Album so much? Don't get me wrong, i do too. but that's just as goofy and corny as Love You. In fact, love you might have been my choice, except i don't really think i've listened to it as religiously as Sunflower and Friends. Love You is great :)

That's exactly how I view it. Only real argument for me is whether or not Wild Honey fits into the latter category. It's hard to say, but I kind of see that album as given us a better glimpse into the individual personalities of the group for the first time and also that Smile was kind of the end of an era for the group. Otherwise, I think you've pretty much nailed it.

Sunflower - chock full of a wide variety of incredibly great music and vocal performances

I'm inclined to agree with this, and really if one includes All Summer Long and SMiLE at the beginning and the end of that list, there is a very clear progression. Parts of Summer Days were a bit of a step back, but they are more than made up for by California Girls.

Friends and Sunflower are two my favorite Beach Boys albums, but they don't capture Brian at his then-peak. All Summer Long is when they really started putting together cohesive albums that were strong from start to finish. So if we begin there and continue through SMiLE (excluding Beach Boys Party and parts of the Christmas album), we see Brian continually topping himself, as each consecutive album was better than the last.

If we're only talking three pillars, then I'd have to put Today! as the third one -- I've always considered it as sort of a little brother to Pet Sounds.

Love You is very interesting, however, so I can see why some people like to put that in their Big Three.

Shucks, I'm new here and didn't realize there was already someone named LittleBird. My apologies! I'll see what I can do about changing mine.

I'm going to try to make the U2 comparision

A combination of War and the unforgettable fire - Today

Joshua Tree - Summer days

Achtung Baby - Pet Sounds

A combination of all the experimental stuff U2 has tried through Zooropa, Pop, Dismantle an atomic bomb and No line - Smile

Is this choosing the top 3?  Then I'm with GroganB

BBs Today
Summer Days and Summer Nights
Pet Sounds

And to think those 3 discs composed The Beach Boys Deluxe Set -- making it the best release by the band in its career (including best cover photo), to my mind.

and I just wish The Little Girl I Once Knew was in there somewhere.

Boy-War - Surfin' Safari - All Summer Long
Unforgettable Fire - Today
Joshua Tree - Pet Sounds
Achtung - Zooropa = SMiLE

Joshua Tree is U2's defining album - thus its Pet Sounds status.

Achtung Baby was U2 really pushing the bounds of what a mainstream rock band could get away with...thus its SMiLE status.

I didn't mean in this particular order. Pet Sounds is No.1 in any list of mine. The other two are like the musical cornerstones on which it rests.

The three pillars are Still Cruisin', Summer in Paradise, and Salute to Nascar! :lol

Can I just quickly use this opportunity to say that U2 are crap? Thanks.

We have a small disagreement here. Pet sounds is not BB's defining album in terms of sound and hit songs.

 U2 are famous for the sound they developed on Unforgetable fire and Joshua tree. The same can be said for the sound on All summer long, Today and Summer nights. Pet sounds is an experimental and critically acclaimed album, to me it's just like Achtung Baby (AB was definitely more successful for its time though). U2 don't have a Smile in their discography. The closest thing to me would be a collection of songs spanning from Zooropa through pop, atomic bomb and Vertical Horizon OR just Vertical Horizon alone. But nothing from U2's catalog has the same reputation as Smile so...

Bono is a pretentious asshat, but don't be knocking the Edge.

Can we use another example besides U2?

Radiohead?

The Bends - Today (The beginning of their sound.)
Ok Computer - Pet Sounds (Their peak)
Kid A - Smile (Most creative album they released.)

The Kinks?

Something Else - Today
The Village Green Preservation Society - Pet Sounds
Arthur - Smile (Hit or Miss)

Michael Jackson?

Off The Wall - Today
Thriller - Pet Sounds
Bad - Smile (Hit or Miss)

Pink Floyd?

The Piper at the Gates of Dawn - Today
The Dark Side of the Moon - Pet  Sounds
The Wall - Smile

The Who?

Tommy - Today
Who's Next - Pet Sounds
Quadrophenia - Smile


WOW! Those were amazing examples :)

Definitely see what you mean. But to me U2s latest albums play it safe in regards to experimental stuff.

Good points on Joshua Tree/Achtung Baby.
______

And U2 isn't crap.

To throw in a comparison to Prefab Sprout:

Many consider "Steve McQueen" to be their "Pet Sounds" and "Jordan: The Comeback" their "Smile", but I prefer this analysis (any Sproutheads feel free to disagree):

Steve McQueen (1985) - Today!
Jordan: The Comeback (1991) - Pet Sounds
Let's Change the World with Music (1993/released 2009) - Smile (debatable)

With that in mind you could call "From Langley Park..." their "Summer Days...". Mmmaybe even stretch to calling "Andromeda Heights" their "Friends". Ok I'm done.

Those are terrible examples. especially the Floyd one.

 ::) Newguy, I have agree with Aegir. Hardly any of those make any sense. If anything, Kid A is Radiohead's Pet Sounds, and they haven't had a "Smile" yet. The Kinks I'll agree with.. Michael Jackson... shouldn't even be compared. Pink Floyd really shouldn't be either. And as for The Who, I think you're an album behind on each. It should be 'Sell Out' matched up with 'Today', 'Tommy' matched up with Pet Sounds (tho this is of course a loose interpretation), and Who's Next/Lifehouse matched up with Smiley Smile/Smile

Yes they is.

Explain.

why?

how is kid a pet sounds? lol...why shouldnt mj be compared?..why not pink floyd?...and i do agree with you for the who :)

Is quite simple - Kid A could be considered Radiohead's Pet Sounds as it sounded radically different to what they had done before...like Pet Sounds.

Exactly Paulos. And OK Computer was still the warm up in my opinion, just like Today is now considered the warm up for Pet Sounds. As for MJ and Pink Floyd, the albums that you compared are way too different. Piper at the Gates of Dawn and Today? Dark Side and Pet Sounds, i'll give you that, because of their acclaim, but the Wall and Smile are nothing alike. I can't even make up a reason to try to compare those. I'll stop being hard on you though haha we pretty much love the same music i think, so and it was at least an interesting sidenote  :-D

Personal tastes aside I think fans and critics easily rate Today!, Pet Sounds, and Sunflower has the three best Beach Boys albums.  Any fan of any band depending mood or day could a have a favorite at that point in time which could change regularly.  Like as of today the Beach Boys albums I have in heavy rotation are All Summer Long, Holland, 15 Big Ones, Pacific Ocean Blue/Bambu (I Know its a Denny album) Keepin the Summer Alive, and BB85.   None of those are probably better than their "3 Pillar albums"

And looking back it is probably their 3 best albums w/ no filler or turds on the tracklisting.  Dodging these filler/turd "songs"  seems to be almost a Beach Boys fan art form especially younger fans like myself who have the leisure of going back to the discography and deleting the turds/filler (Bless You iTunes).

this give me an idea for a thread..................

off the wall was building up his style and hype just like today
thriller is the magnum opus just like pet sounds
bad is a brand new sound that makes you wanna dance and moonwalk and so is smile  :lol

:) hey good music is good music its great to see people on here that listen to the same music as myself.

...

Explain why U2 are crap?

Generally speaking that's probably so. But Surf's Up and Holland do get quite a few mentions too.

I think that the critics in the U.K. and U.S. seem to have slightly opinions though (could be wrong here).

I've seen career retrospectives in the U.K. which state that the albums from Pet Sounds through to Holland are all worth listening to and Today but none of the others. Some American critics seem to look on the early albums with more kindness.

It seriously bugs me when the early albums get written off. Yes, Surfin' Safari is far from great (although they were basically kids when they made it don't forget...) and Surfin' USA has too many instrumentals (although the non-instrumentals are all great), aside from that i'd say they're all terrific albums.

Surfer Girl - aside from the throwaway Surfers Stomp, from start to finish a great album, with a solid 3 or 4 outright classics

Little Deuce Coupe - all of the new material is at the very least pleasant, and often fantastic (Custom Machine, Spirit of America)

Shut Down Vol 2 - aside from some occasional obvious filler, an album most bands would kill for: Fun Fun Fun, Dont Worry Baby, In The Parkin Lot, The Warmth Of The Sun, Why Do Fools..., Keep An Eye On Summer. And Carl's songwriting debut rocks!

All Summer Long - John Stebbins is right: one of their best!

The problem for the BB's is that their very best material is SO good that everything else gets overlooked!

Apologises, I meant JON Stebbins. And i've got your (fantastic) book directly in front of me on my bookshelf as i type as well... Poor show

I think one issue that many people have is that when the band made filler it was so blatantly obviously filler. All of those albums suffer from it.

Another problem is that many of the best songs have been heard so many times on the greatest hits compilations meaning that some people (unfairly perhaps) wouldn't be particularly bowled over by them on the studio albums.

Nicko I agree with your assesment from the UK US perspective bc from 67-74 the Beach Boys sales was mediocore to poor in the US.  While during that time the BBoys sales in the UK remained quite strong.  So UK retrospective might lean more towards these years than a US one.

Dont get me wrong I love Surfs Up and Holland its just the musical depth and the strength of the track are better on Today! Pet Sounds and Sunflower.  Take away Bull Sessions w/ Big Daddy and a medicore 'At My Window' you have three perfect albums that are orginal, groundbreaking, and influential in their own ways. 

I think Surfs Up and Holland fall a bit short.  'Take a Load off Your Feet' and 'Student Demonstration Time' are pretty below average tracks.  Though the last half of Surfs Up is down right amazing and sandwich in a decent 'Lookin At Tommorow' song (Man I wish they woulda let Dennis throw in a couple tracks like '4th of July' and 'Carry me Home' and Surfs Up possibly surpasses Sunflower and Today!)  Holland is pretty solid throughout not really a bad track on it eventhough 'Beaks of Eagles' comes close.  It is just Hollands highs never reach the highs of the '3pillar albums' or consistenly stay there.  I have to stop now or I am going to type I novel...haha

Dennis should have let himself throw in a couple of songs. Foolish and childish to cut them.

He also should have stuck around to finish the vocal to Sail On Sailor. The song would have been better with him (or Carl) on lead vocals and would have stood a much better chance of becoming a hit. It could have been something for him to sing in concert for years to come.

It wasn't Dennis' decision to cut himself out of the Surf's Up album, it was Carl's - they had an argument about sequencing, and Carl responded by axing his songs from the album.

Wouldn't It Be Nice to Live Again and 4th Of July were his two offerings, I believe, although apparently WIBNTLA isn't finished, so I may be talking out of my ass.  ;D

While you are correct about the argument, I believe Dennis made the decision to pull his songs off of Surf's Up. He wanted his songs to end the album.

I think the average music fan dismisses their early work as throwaway surf and car songs.  Which some of it was, but that was only a small percentage of their catalog.  The Beach Boys were working against a record company who wanted to constantly to throw 2 or 3 LP's out a year, so most of their early LP's suffer from being rushed.  Like I mentioned in a previous thread the best way to look at the early LP's is to throw away the "turd" and filler songs then combine the LPs that dropped that year.

But as we all know a lot of their early work was brillant, the LPs just werent consistant from front to back.  I rank the pre Today! albums like so:

All Summer Long
Summer Days (and Summer Nights!!)
[Easily their 2 best early work LPs, Brian slowly crafting a full LP worth of brillant material]

Surfer Girl
Surfin USA
Shut Down Vol 2
[Above average LP's that contain some absolutely brillant songs but suffer considerably from filler tracks such as half assed instrumentals and uninspired covers or poor surfer/car songs]

Surfin Safari
Little Duece Coupe
[For me easily the worst LP's from their early years.  Surfin Safari sounds like a group of overwelmed kids w/ a few good ideas trying to make a quick buck off the surfing craze.  Little Duece Coupe just a collection of their worst and in my opinon format for their songs, about cars!  and cmon for those who like it you cant defend the fact that two songs that appeared on the previous Surfer Girl LP now appear on Little Duece Coupe.  That just epitomizes the laziness and lack of orginality into this "concept" album (Sorry Disney Boy)

Ah ok, thanks for refreshing my memory  ;D

Summer Days... is not a pre-Today album. It was the next album after Today.

Damn your right thanks for the correction, I also mix that up because Today! the feels like the natural transition into Pet Sounds. 

In reguards to my previous post just scratch Summer Days off, though I do rank it right up their w/ All Summer Long

I think that's doing Surfer Girl a disservice. It only contains probably 3 filler songs. Surfin USA and Shut Down Vol 2 have far more imo.

Definetly rate Surfer Girl higher than Surfin USA and Shut Down, so maybe since I flubbed by putting Summer Days...on there I could elevate Surfer Girl w/ All Summer Long.  Now theres a debate which pre Today! album is best All Summer Long or Surfer Girl?  I couldnt even decide right now

Um, what copy of Surfer Girl do you have?

I agree..Friends for the mood it conveys, the contribution made by the others makes it a real band effort (something Sunflower gets alot of credit for) and for the bravery of putting out an album that went so against the prevailing trends of the day

I was going to pretend i had a special limited edition must-have edition worth hundreds, but no - i meant South Bay Surfer, not Surfer's Stomp.

My personal 3 pillars would be Smile, Pet Sounds and Friends.

In terms of the general musical listening universe? Let's be honest here. It's probably All Summer Long, Today! and Pet Sounds. Smile is a great "what if" that didn't become an official, tangible release for the majority of the general public until 44 years after the fact.

Or, we could do it this way. Don't limit me to studio albums, and let's look way into the future, post 2011. Make it Endless Summer (or a better, all intensive early years comp that covers the same bases), Pet Sounds and Smile.

I'd say for the general listeners, the "pillars" are Pet Sounds and a decent hits compilation like Sounds of Summer. The Beach Boys are considered a "one (good) album wonder" by most people, it seems.

My three favorites would have to be:
Pet Sounds
Smile (2004)
Smiley Smile

I tend to agree. It is so out there... it's their punk/garage/minimalist album, and one of  the few albums ever made where the flaws actually make it greater than the sum of its parts.

Can't think of a similar trick pulled off by any other one of the biggest bands.

Beatles? Stones? Byrds? Nope.

their satanic majesties request :)..