The Smiley Smile Message Board

It's pretty much a given that Mike "Don't F*ck With The Formula" Love was opposed to the SMiLE project from the get go but does anyone know specifically which other Beach Boys didn't like the SMiLE songs? Any specific quotes by band members? What did Murray think of SMiLE? I'm certain that at least Dennis supported Brian's bold new musical direction.

It is ?  News to me, and I suspect many other folk here. Based on this statement, I gather you've not listened to any of the Smile sessions where Mike not only sings something you claim he was bitterly oppose to, but sings it outstanding well.

Oh, and many have tried to track down the origin of the "DFWTF" quote, and who said it, with a complete lack of success to date.

Yeah, I've had some bitter arguments with ardent Mike Love supporters on this board, and I have trouble buying this. Just from listening to the sessions, it seems fairly clear that all the guys are into the project. I think the turn against it comes in December when Brian starts losing focus. With that in mind, I'm equally unsatisfied with the position that you can't say Mike wasn't into the project since he sang so well on the material. How many songs that John Lennon later said he felt were sh*t at the time did he sing on? Maxwell Silver Hammer, Eight Days A Week, etc. Moreover, the most significant (read: not the only) element missing from Smile are vocals - and I think it's ultimately telling that there are no lead vocals from the lead singer of the band.

I don't think that anyone who cares about Brian Wilson's and/or his music can possibly hate 'SMiLE'. No doubt there were people in and around the band at the time who had the opinion that it wasn't exactly the right type of music for The Beach Boys, but I'm sure that in any case "hate" is a much too strong word.

From all the information i've gathered, I'm pretty sure Mike was pretty much just opposed to the lyrics. I don't think the music was what bothered him. I mean he didn't seem to have a problem with Smiley Smile. The music on the SMiLE tapes is way more accessible than on that of Smiley Smile. So I don't think it was the music people had trouble with, whoever it was. It was the lyrics. And a lot of the actual reason Brian quit it was because of other things than opposition.

Thanks gentlemen, you're all correct. I think "hate" is too strong a word, I should've used the words "unsure" or "concerned" about the SMiLE material. Andrew you're quite right about Mike's vocal work on SMiLE, it was well executed and I recall Mike recently praising SMiLE and even stated Wonderful as his favorite.

It should be noted that John Lennon co-wrote "Eight Days A Week" and appears nowhere on the released recording of "Maxwell's Silver Hammer."

Sorry - forgot about Maxwell Silver though we do know that he played on the song in sessions despite criticism that it was "the corny one". As for Eight Days, it was mostly a Paul song and John still called it "lousy" despite being the predominant vocalist on it.

This is true, John was not a fan of Paul's song which he called "Granny Music", in fact there's a YouTube video of John goofing around during the Let It Be sessions singing Maxwell's Silver Hammer in a mocking
manner, it's quite funny.  :lol

That was actually in reference to Ob-la-di Ob-la-da, another one that John hated. He's all over that one vocally and musically.

In I Just Wasn't Made For These Times, both Brian and Carl say that Mike didn't like Smile.

As did Brian in Beautiful Dreamer, Marilyn, Van Dyke Parks, and others. But, of course, they're all infected with the "I hate Mike Love for no good reason" chromosome...Right?  ::)

Brian wasn't crazy about SMiLE until he finished BWPS, and then this year listened to the box set, reminding him that the original sessions weren't all bad for him.

Oh come on. Smile was Brian's baby but he was in a fragile state and the criticism made him re-think everything he had been doing.

I meant Brian's viewpoint in the 1970s- 1990s where he looked at the SMiLE era as the beginning of  the dark period in his life where he couldn't write hits like the old days and the mental illness started coming on strong.

Did he, though? In the mid-70s he was calling Friends his favourite Beach Boys album. Not a hit, certainly, but he certainly felt at that point, that his creative peak was post-Smile. I think his negative feelings about Smile were mostly about how The Beach Boys may have missed a golden opportunity and, sure, it could have been viewed in retrospect as a moment in time that could have changed a whole course of action.

References to Hammer as "the corny one" come from bad editing in the Let It Be film. In actuality, that comment is made referring to a scrapped backing vocal part in Don't Let Me Down.

Friends was one of his favorites, but his hard work on the album combined with its flopping in in the hell of 1968 had to hurt. SMiLE's non-event was a huge letdown.

You're kidding! How was that discovered? Bootlegs?

Agreed.

I discovered it when I heard the unedited tape of the session on the Purple Chick A/B Road set, and was quite astounded, as I had also always assumed the comment referred to Hammer. There are many other howlingly bad editing choices in the film as well. It is almost as if Michael Lindsay-Hogg was attempting to make the sessions look much worse than they actually were.

So are we concluding or confirming that Brian's perception that Mike hated SMiLE is incorrect? 

As mentioned above, he clearly says that Mike is one of the reasons he shelved the project in the Beautiful Dreamer documentary.  Mike may have participated in the recording sessions, but what about the spats with VDP?  Those didn't happen, then?  I don't see it as that black and white myself.  It wasn't just Mike...or just Brian as the issue..it was an clusterball of crap that Brian got from many directions (including himself).  But to now rule out Mike Love completely...I don't know about all that.

My mate Dave hates SMiLE!

As mentioned before, I don't think that Mike was opposed to SMiLE either, not only did he sing those parts pretty damn well, but on the box set he contributed quite a lengthy essay about the project, now I remember from High School, writing essays about things you hate is not something that you tend to do.

IF Mike did say the DFWTF thing, I think it's possible that he was taken out of context over the course of time, not talking about how Brian was writing the songs, but how he was recording them, it must be frustrating for anyone to go into a studio, record vocals for a 30 second segment and then go, only to watch the man putting it together slowly begin to lose focus.

Just my opinions of course :)

I did some further searching on the topic and there was some dialogue in the movie An American Family where they're working on the SMiLE sessions and Bruce says something like "Gee, Brian I'm not sure I even know what were singing about." and Carl something along the lines of "It's just all bits and pieces." not sure how accurate this would be but perhaps it's further insight into how the band felt about the song's subject matter.

Boy, it sounds like you had a much more happy high school experience than I had.


It should be noted too that the DFWTF quote (which seems to be never actually spoken by Mike) is historically attributed to his reactions to Pet Sounds not Smile.

It was interesting, just not in an educational sense, I learned how to swear and how to roll the perfect cigarette...

And RE the DFWTF quote, I do vaugley recall someone saying it was from PS and not SMiLE, truth is, when it comes to Beach Boys history, I never know quite what to believe anymore!  :lol

very true. It is no wonder that they didnt re-record Surf's Up or Cabinessence for Smiley Smile. The ones that remained were mostly by Brian alone, and wind chimes and vega-tables were not really too psychedelic, vegetables was after all inspired by Brians period of fit-living thinking when he opened the Radient Radish and all. Mike liked all that. They all (apart from Bruce) did quite some drugs in those days, as is evident from the Our Prayer sessions and many other vocal takes from TSS and Smiley Smile.

Perhaps this is why Bruce hardly appears on Smile??????

As a reliable source of historically accurate dialog, An American Family is pretty much on a par with Brian's pseudobiography.  ;D

I do believe it was Tony Asher that said he heard Mike say the DFWTF quote.

Who knows if it's true, but I don't know why Asher would lie about it.

Was Mike really against psychedelic? If so, what did he think of Smiley Smile which is an extremely weird sounding album (maybe our definitions of psychedelic are different). While it is clear that Mike opposed the lyrics, I also think he didn't quite get what the production race was really all about. He knew what sounded like a hit, and Smile lyrics or no lyrics didn't sound like one. I think it was more than just the words he had a problem with. Mike probably liked songs like Heroes and Villains and Wonderful because they sound, at least superficially, like they are bit more mainstream oriented and not filled with odd production tricks.

Mike disliked SMiLE but not as much as Lennon despised Silver Hammer  ;D

Where did he say that?

He did say that he heard the guys saying, "Why do we have to sing these stupid lyrics" or words to that effect.

The "just pieces" argument (which is ridiculous in my opinion) may have also been uttered by Carl (I don't know) but was certainly said by both Mike and Bruce whose historical perpsective is greatly reflected in that ridiculous docucomedy.

Don' knock dat documenslurry – without it, we wouldn't have known that Brian spent seven years asleep in his sandbox eating a birthday cake made of hash and writing Do It Again, which incidentally was Number One in the UK, don'cha know.

I remember watching this mini series back in 2000 and although interesting to watch (especially Kevin Dunn who I thought played Murry very well) I agree that it lacks credibility not unlike The Wouldn't It Be Nice biography. It was kind of fun to watch, the guy that played Brian reminded me of Jeff Daniels in Dumb and Dumber.  :lol

Tom Nolan's RS article relays David Anderle felt Mike was responsible for "the collapse" (of the initial Brother records initative and David A's involvement) because Mike wanted David A's help to go in one direction while David Anderle was taking things in a different direction (the one that allowed Brian the freedom to create music ala Smile; "Brian played the Beach Boys his new (Smile) music and it scared the sh*t out of them").  

David really holds Mike Love responsible for the collapse.  Mike wanted the bread, "and don't f*** with the formula".

According to Tom Nolan's article.

I could definitely be wrong, but for some reason I think it was on the 'Songwriter' DVD. Though since he is not on the DVD someone must have been speaking for him. If I watch it again soon I'll definitely look out for it.

Though I do believe that's why it's assumed, above, that the quote came from the Pet Sounds era...

What about the spats between Brian and Van Dyke. Which one hated SMiLE?

I also thought the DFWTF was from Pet Sounds.

Now if Mike did say it, I think I can actually sympathise with him. If you look at the albums leading up to Pet Sounds, Mike has more and more credits as a lyricist. I think that Mike took it personally that Brian was using other lyricists. The lyrics on Today are every bit as good as Pet Sounds IMO. Good Vibrations was poetic, yet commercial at the same time. Wild Honey was very good lyrically (mostly Mike) but by then it was too late (in the US).

Who's to say that if Brian told Mike what he was trying to do with SMiLE lyrics that Mike couldn't have come up with an Americana theme that was very creative, yet commercial too? It's possible that after Today, Mike didn't want to write those kinds of lyrics anymore. But then explain GV.

I think it's entirely possible Mike may not have wanted to continue with the usual girls, cars and surfing themes. Mike did write the lyrics to I'm Waiting For The Day which I think are as good as any of Tony Asher's lyrics and the lyrics on Good Vibrations are quintessential Mike with the whole boy/girl perspective. Having said that I actually believe Mike was very capable of progressing as a lyricist and could've plunged into surreal Americana type stuff though probably no where near as good as Mr. Parks but he did after all go on to write Big Sur.

I recall reading years ago and just recently that Myke had made another comment to Brian about PS-something along the lines of "...who's gonna hear this sh*t, the ears of a dog?" Lyrics aside, was he also paranoid about Brian's utilization of outside musicians as well? He had an ego the size of which dwarfs the universe but it appears to have been fragile. Was his face gotten into about riding Brian about PS and S? Did Brian ever have the opportunity to go to him and tell him his lyrics sucked? Would enjoy hearing that Brian had the opportunity to use what he said  on Party just before "Devoted To You"-"If you don't like it then shut up and go home".

What if Brian didn't particularly want historic lyrics for SMiLE but only wanted high brow lyrics he could contrast and undercut with his comic touchs musically? A contrast sort of like argument as comedy. What if the high brow lyrics weren't working for him, just like he said at the time, and he dumped almost all of the high brow lyrics but stuck with comedic musical touchs? Just an observation.

Hardly. It's been reported that the lyrical difference between the originally copyrighted version (in 1964) credited only to Brian and the Pet Sounds track is less than ten words.

Why the obsession with spelling it SMiLE? Never understood that one I know it's the art but...........anyhow I loved it

e.e.cummings' poetry and orthography were a huge influence in that time, and, I had always suspected that he influenced the SMiLE lyrics.  We covered a lot of his work in high school, and I was a sophomore when Smiley came out, so the stream-of-consciousness and unconventionally put together orthography and graphics, amidst the Warhol and Peter Max stuff did not strike people as out of synch.  Not your typical BB stuff, which got them off the ground, but, the influence was definitely there.  It is likely, that Brian and some of the other BB's may have even read his poetry in English Composition in college. 

There is an interview on a website called "splicetoday" with Van Dyke Parks, which enumerates some of his influences, and e.e.cummings is among them.  ;)

I meant he didn't want to write Today style lyrics and convinced Brian to let him write lyrics like before, thus we get Summer Days/Nights. Later we get Do It Again. At the same time, Mike did well on GV and WH lp.

First off, Mike said that in a joking way that Brian must have the ears of a dog because he hears everything. Secondly, why would Mike care if there are studio musicians? He didn't play anything anyway!

This argument will likely go on forever.

How about judging people by what they DO instead of SAY, or in this case may have said. Clear the bias and look at history. Mike worked hard and sang on all of the early sixties hit songs and albums. He worked hard on Pet Sounds and Smile. Then he worked hard on the late sixties songs and albums.  He sang about all kinds of crazy things and subjects that had nothing to do with FORMULA or surfing. Songs like Do it Again or It's OK came after years of albums that Mike worked hard on with the other Beach Boys, but that flopped in sales.

I've been annoyed by Mike plenty over my lifetime as a fan, but this blaming him for Smile's collapse or making him the ONLY reason the Beach Boys became a traveling jukebox should stop.

Mike had such a problem with Parks' lyrics that the whole project collapsed and then Brian was never the same and......... but wait, there was Mike in Brian's house recording more formula lyrics like those on Smiley.

Tony Asher said that during the recording of Pet Sounds, as soon as BW was in another room, the entire band would bash the songs saying things like "why are we even singing these stupid songs".

I imagine that the same thing happened during the smile sessions. It was probably worse at that point. Seems like they were all full of themselves

Is it possible that the copyrighted version left off Mike's name, ala the songs that he had to fight and win credit for later on?

It isn't just about being capable though - using new lyrical collaborators allowed Brian to feel more free and creative, like he could push himself into doing new things musically and thematically.  Working with Mike as he had done for the last few years may have felt constricting to him.  His music really benefitted from the fact that he used collaborators from different backgrounds, who brought different things to the table.  It's not as simple as saying "Mike could have written the lyrics for Pet Sounds and Smile" because the musical approaches on those projects would not have been the same without Tony Asher and Van Dyke, respectively.  

Probably.

Tony has said he felt like the Boys were dissing him and/or his lyrics at the session he attended. I don't know if I'll be able to find it [or remember to look] but Tony has also said that he is not really positive he was being criticised, he allows it may have been a ribbing. Grain of salt time-out until I do or don't find that.

Play some unsurpassed masters. They couldn't even take Girls on The Beach seriously  ::)

I think I'll go with the recollections of Brian, Carl, Van Dyke, Marilyn, and David Anderle that Mike didn't like Smile - rather than all the experts on this board that weren't there butlove to insist Mike was nothing but supportive of Brian's second "ego music" album.

Ahhh, somebody finally opened the window and let the fresh air in-May this  reside in the top ten best ever posts on this board. Thank you.

I think I'll go with what was actually said and done at the time instead of 60 year old second hand opinions.

Aren't you actually making a good argument toward Mike not exactly being satan here? It's OK for John Lennon to call something the corny one, or lousy, or sh*te, but Mike can't ask what a lyric means?

Uh, bands have disagreements all the freaking time. Lots of bands are nothing but disagreement and strife! Trick is, will any or all of them show up for work when needed and get on with it? Mike showed up and sang when asked to and sang well.... Get over it!

On the subject of Lennon, he is also someone who was extremely critical of himself. He called "Yes it is" a failed "This Boy." That man's failure is better than most bands hits! So I wouldn't take his word.

Yeah, he did also call "Cry Baby Cry" "just another piece of shite" and that's one of my all-time faves!

I'm not sure you know the definition of "second hand."  All those people listed were there when everything went down.  You can't just dismiss what they've said over the years by arguing that since Mike sang what he was asked (as far as we know, anyways), he was supportive of the project.

I guess my point is: The Beach Boys were Mike's band too and he didn't like the people hanging around Brian, didn't like the drugs (a fact alone that likely created ill will and spawned a host of Beautiful Dreamer quotes) and thought they were influencing the lyrics and probably had an attitude. We all may not feel the same as he might have (we have no way of really knowing this because we weren't there and Brian is not our bandmate/cousin) but the guy had the right to feel that way and to say something about it. However, Smile did not collapse because Mike refused to come in and sing when Brian asked him to. I'm sure Mike's attitude and vibe didn't help Brian, but trying to pin the entire collapse of Smile on Mike just seems petty and like an easy shot at the uncool bald guy.

I understand "second hand". Mike's account of whether he did or did not like SMiLE would be a first hand account. Brian's, Marilyn's, David's, Carl's would be their opinion as a "second hand" account.

Since I never called Mike "satan" nor did I say it was "OK for John Lennon to call something the corny one" (because neither of those statements would have had anything to do with what I was talking about) then, no, I'm not making that argument.


But again, the point is that just because he "showed up and and sand when asked to and sang well", that's no reason to conclude that he liked the project.

In other words, you don't actually understand what "first hand" or "second hand" account means and you will only accept Mike Love's word on the issue.  ::)

"But again, the point is that just because he "showed up and and sand when asked to and sang well", that's no reason to conclude that he liked the project."

But he didn't HAVE to like it!

That's not how it works!

Roger Daltry BEGGED Townsend to abandon the Lifehouse project! (which he did) .....

I'm just saying every member of a band in rock history liking/loving/being 100 percent behind each and every project/new direction is hideously rare.

Are you a lawyer???? Seriously!!!

And if so, do you give free consultations?  ;D

I never said he had to like it and I never said that's how it works. Someone said that Mike didn't dislike the project and the proof was that he sang on it. My response was strictly to that and nothing else. This thread's title is not "Did Mike Love HAVE to like Smile?"

Then what's all the fuss about and what's the point?

I'm not the one who started the thread!

But one could extrapolate many things from Mike not liking the album, none of which I'll get into right now because I'm going to sleep. Gotta big case in the morning...no not really.

i don't see how Mike singing on it had anything to do with him liking it or not.  or if there was nothing on the tapes.  It's not like the tapes were everything, i'm sure they all had sense not to discuss these things while recording, and brian probably wouldn't want to keep it if it was recorded.

But once again, where are we getting? Where does any of this get us? Brian's people/friends say Mike hated Smile, Mike says he did/does not. What can possible be done in this situation other than to admit the situation is too shaded with gray and shrouded in time to come to some useless conclusion.

Who hated Smile the most ?

Brian, patently, as he decided to abandon it. One thing everyone concurs on is that it was his call and his alone.

+1

And refused to talk about it for years, as well.

I guess it makes me stupid that I listened to what Tony Asher said and took him seriously. After all he was just there in the studio when it happened.  :'(

bashing from a bandmate could not stop 1966 BW from finishing his album. I mean, the guy edited Mike's lyrics for Good Vibrations, wrote with whom ever he wanted, released a solo single that also appears on a a BB album. He quit the road, just to write and record, dammit! He was king of the Beach Boys, no one argues or agued that. And he did as he pleased up until he more or less abdicated. 

It always seemed to me that blaming Mike for Smile's non-release, like Anderle and others did, came from personal spite, and that Brian's opinions on Beautiful Dreamer are informed by that faction.

In the end, it cannot be argued that the Beach Boys went along for the ride, up until Brian shelved the project.

That doesn't mean he hated it either, though. Someone who believes in euthanasia doesn't believe in it because they hate the person. And really, I think that euthanasia is the best metaphor for what ended up happening with Smile. Although in this case, the patient donated his parts to science (Smiley Smile).

+1

People did what Brian wanted, not the other way around.

A lot of petty comments or finger pointing from those that may or may not have been there all of those years ago have been blown out of proportion.

I blame it on Phil Spector and Murray Wilson for bugging Brian's house!  :afro  :old 

Exactly.  This is similar (but obviously not identical to!) only believing the murderer who says he's innocent, and discounting the eyewitnesses who saw him do the crime.  And may I remind you I am NOT calling Mike a murderer, it's an analogy!

There's no reason for this thread to degenerate into the "Mike killed Smile" or for a Mike hate-fest.  The thread is who hated Smile, or at least actively disliked it.  It wouldn't surprise me if at some point all of the other Beach Boys didn't lose all enthusiasm for the project as the sessions wore on and Brian seemed no closer to completion.  And ultimately Brian's love-hate relationship with the material is what killed it - on this we can all agree with Andrew.

To an extent. But it didn't take much to change Brian's mind about his own music - such was the fragile state of his confidence. While, say, John Lennon could criticize a McCartney song endlessly, McCartney would only be hurt insofar as it would hurt him that John couldn't understand that his was song was, in fact, brilliant. In Brian's case, though, he could be told by his father that he sounded old on Caroline, No, and that would actually compel Brian to change the speed of the song. Now, like it or not, in that case, Murry is a key agent in making the change to the record, since it more than likely would have not have been changed without his comments. Murry plays a decisive role in the song being changed even though Brian himself does the actual changing.

OK, I got an idea!!!!!

Let's hire F. Lee Baily and take this thing to trial!

rockandroll, you can be the prosecutor, I'll be the defense, and Mike will be forced to take the stand! (oldsurferdude will be the bailiff)

Once we've reached a jury verdict, we can put this thing to rest and Mike's contributions, writing credits, and royalty $ for anything Beach Boys related will cease if he's found guilty of being a merdahole and hating Smile and his bad vibes highhandedly forcing poor Brian to abandon his life's work.

Then could we finally be over this silly argument???

It's remarkable how much this burns you up.

He still controled pretty much every aspect of the group, including the drastic (if short-lived) change of their live sound and performance style, no earlier than August 1967. He called the shots, even if the role of the BBs was not that of mere "messengers".

Bottomline: Mike did not hate Smile, nor hates it.

It doesn't burn me up. It just gets silly is all.

Perhaps but one can't ignore the factors that may have led him to call some shots over others and that those factors share responsibility, in some cases share even more responsibility for those shots than the "caller" himself.

I also wouldn't consider someone (me) trying to plead the case of: let's just all be friends and admit we can't blame Mike completely for Brian abandoning Smile as an example of someone getting all burned up over something.

However insisting no matter what the evidence that Mike alone caused Smile to collapse ..... THAT feels like someone getting all burned up over something!

At what point does someone in the position to call the shots take responsibility for calling the shots?

No matter what the factors, if this person has the power to veto them ALL: and still decides to abandon ship: isn't he basically solely responsible?

The fact that you frequently resort to this strawman in which someone blames Mike "completely" or that someone is calling Mike "Satan", and so on, and so on, suggests precisely that you are burned up about it. The slightest criticism against Mike (and note, my first post on this thread is for the most part, sticking up for Mike) seems to bother you so much that you tend to represent that small criticism as a much larger, more hurtful, and more ridiculous criticism.


This isn't about anybody taking responsibility. Brian, in many ways, did take responsibility over the years.


No. To ignore the factors that lead people to make the decisions they do is dangerous and rests on an incorrect assumption about the way the world works and how individual actions in the world work. Nevertheless, this incorrect assumption is a popular way of looking at things, like for instance, when people argue that the homeless and the poor are responsible for their position in the economic hierarchy. You hear stuff like this all the time. But it's always bullsh*t.

What I don't get is admitting blame to those who deny it and denying blame to those who admit it. Mike says he didn't hate SMiLE, he didn't like some of the lyrics.

Brian didn't like the lyrics either and he scrapped SMiLE not because of the band's wishes but in spite of and against the band's wishes. That is from Brian himself within a year of the events. Not what somebody thought Brian thought 10 or 60 years after the fact, but what Brian thought. Let's get over it, we don't agree with Brian's choices but there they are. He's the genius, not us.

"No. To ignore the factors that lead people to make the decisions they do is dangerous and rests on an incorrect assumption about the way the world works and how individual actions in the world work. Nevertheless, this incorrect assumption is a popular way of looking at things, like for instance, when people argue that the homeless and the poor are responsible for their position in the economic hierarchy. You hear stuff like this all the time. But it's always bullsh*"




OK, then in your lawyerspeak:

As evidence against Mike, what do we have?

We have VDP's account of Mike asking him what a certain lyric meant.

We have Brian saying Mike hated Smile.

We have Brian's friends saying Mike wasn't going for it.

Evidence for Mike, what do we have?

We have actual recorded evidence of Mike singing Smile parts as Brian dictated and singing well.

We have Mike saying he didn't care for the lyrics but liked the music. He gushes over Wonderful in particular.

I'm going to go with the recorded evidence.

Until someone comes forward saying Mike refused to come to the studio and sing, or that he begged Brian to abandon Smile, I'll go with the likely reality that life is complicated and steeped in shades of grey and that Brian made the decision to abandon Smile.

Why don't we liken this to the Manson murders?

Sure, there were complicated reasons for the murders and Manson certainly couldn't have pulled it off on his own, but he sits in prison (on an original death sentence) because HE made the decision to carry out the murders.


Sure, he didn't actually commit the murders, but he's guilty all the same and even more so because it was his decision and his baby!

No one seems to be completely guilty or completely innocent in the Smile sage. Can we leave it at that?

 ;D

And Brian and van Dyke and others say he hated it.  You prefer to believe Mike, fine but you should recognize that those that choose to believe the greater number of eye witnesses have an equally valid (and probably with greater numbers more valid) point of view.  What, you think Brian and van and David and Marilyn aren't remembering correctly, are lying, or have an axe to grind?  The same can be said of Mike.

And I'm a genius too!  Murray told me!

Manson killed Smile?

NO! I was making an analogy!

Manson sits in prison because HE made the decision to commit the Manson murders.

Brian killed Smile because he made that decision.

I don't think anyone's trying to argue that Mike loved Smile (pun intended), but he did not kill it!

Did he kill 20/20 though???

No, I assume they are giving their impression. What Mike thought trumps their impression. Anderle also said arguments and dislike between Brian and Van Dyke of their respective lyrics and music is what killed SMiLE and that was within a year of the time, is this true because he said it? It too seems like it is his impression [although he is more specific about this than Mike], probably partly true and partly mistaken. Would we take Van Dyke's and Brian's word on this over Anderle's?

Whether Miked Smile or hated it with a passion: he still showed up and sang and provided Brian with whatever he needed of him to make the project work. Who cares really if he hated it with a passion or didn't? The guy showed up and did as Brian told him to. What's the big deal? What's with the burning need to paint Mike as the boogeyman?

No, Bruce did by sticking on "Bluebirds Over The Mountain".

So, Bruce is the Tex Watson of 20/20?

:lol priceless!!

"What Mike thought trumps their impression."

Nope. There is no objective way to know what anyone thinks. All we have are impressions. If everyone at the time believed Mike hated it, and behaved as if he did so, what does it matter what he felt? Didn't he then have some responsibility to make his actual views known? Or was he content to play both sides of the fence?


Because if Brian was a sensitive at the time as many say, the outspoken criticism of the band's live frontman would count for a lot. It would eat away at confidence. It would make BW think twice about his artistic course. It could end up being one of many things that droves Brian to abandon the project.

Your argument is kind of like a husband telling his wife: "I work hard and pay for the house. I even wash the dishes every night. So what if I curse at you all the time and say you're worthless? Who cares?"

I think the wife would care quite a lot, actually.

I think Mike's opinion certainly didn't help, but was Mike's opinion REALLY all that important to Brian? Think about it!

And once again, Mike not liking Smile is one thing. but he showed up and sang and did as he was told. This demonstrates that Mike's feelings, no mater what they were, were surmountable and should not have meant that Brian had to abandon the project.

A couple of really ordinary threads at the moment...

Well, there is an objective way to know what someone thinks: when someone tells you they didn't hate something, it is their objective thought and not someone else's subjective impression. The impression is wrong at that point. How would Mike be responsible for someone's wrong impression?   The one who formed the wrong impression is responsible for finding out the actual views before spouting their opinion. Mike has corrected this wrong impression repeatedly. How many times does it take?

It's all beside the point, it puts everything backwards. Brian didn't like SMiLE and he scrapped it. We keep trying to blame someone besides Brian or invent reasons why Brian isn't responsible for his likes and wishes and actions but Brian himself says the Boys fought him to save SMiLE. That's Brian saying he was against SMiLE, Boys were for SMiLE. The Boys likes and wants didn't matter and Brian ignored their wishes to keep SMiLE and scrapped it against their wishes because he wanted to. So much for the myth of Brian being sensitive to the Boys wishes in this regard I guess.

Your entire argument is based on the false premise that people (in this instance, Mike) always tell the truth.  Just because Mike says he liked the music and only had a small problem with the lyrics doesn't make it an objective impression.  He has more incentive to say he liked Smile than the observers do to say that he didn't.  I trust the recollections of people like Marilyn, Anderle and Vosse more than I do Mike's statements decades after the fact.

To be clear, I'm not at all in the "Mike killed Smile" camp - as we all know, the whole thing is nowhere near that black and white.  I just don't think the evidence is there to say that he was as supportive as he says he was.

Well said, and I, to no avail, keep trying to steer this convo into asking why exactly does it really matter what Mike thought? Brian does whatever he wants, and is the master commander and steamrolls ahead doing as he pleases and the Beach Boys are just his messengers and suddenly he scraps the culmination of his musical life just because Mike asks about a lyric or expresses something other than fawning approval? Even if Mike got in Brian's face and screamed that he freaking hated it and wished Brian would kill Smile: that would be awful, but as I keep pointing out, he showed up for work and did as Brian told him. And that certainly says something!

Bill Wyman didn't like the atmosphere at the house were the Stones were recording Exile On Main Street. He didn't like the drugs, the druggies, the insane hours, and he made his opinion known to the point of being absent for a lot of the sessions (which is why he appears on very few tracks on the album) He also was hurt that Keith or Mick Taylor would play bass on tracks that were recorded at the wee hours without bothering to ask anyone else to contribute. (see, these things are complicated and shaded) .... Alas, the Stones finished the album. If they hadn't, I suppose Bill would be the bad guy. But I don't think so! For one thing, he had a full head of well groomed rock star hair, and for some reason, no matter what bad stories get out about the Stones, they're all cool and none of it matters, but Mike on the other hand........ the guy can't win.

I bring up the Stones to illustrate, once again that bands freaking disagree! ALL THE TIME! In fact, MOST OF THE TIME. How come it's only an issue with The Beach Boys/Mike? ..... Well, that's an easy one: people like to hate Mike! Need to hate Mike! Want to hate Mike!

I think this issue can be looked at as a fair draw!

Yes, Mike had issues with Smile. And this was his right! Like it or not, he had/has the right to his opinion.

I think that's about as clear as it can ever be made. Mike has been very careful about praising Smile but not to the point of where he's sitting there trying to say he loved it dearly and was 100 per cent supportive. So, OK, Mike had issues with it. And, once again, that was has right as a member of the band.

Another thing we can agree on is that Brian made the decision to scrap Smile. The reasons were complicated, and Mike's feelings were a contributing factor. That's life! People are human and complicated. But decisions are decisions. Brian's decision to scrap Smile is a fact. Simple as that.

It's history, but at least now we have an official (and awesome) product!

OK Chris, we'll just disagree.

However to be supposedly non-supportive in the way described of Mike was actually to be supportive of Brian's view because Brian [and Anderle actually] gave the lyrics as one of his reasons for his desire to scrap SMiLE. However, Brian said the Boys were not supportive of his desire to scrap SMiLE. Yet Brian says he scrapped SMiLE over the Boys' objections.

Me, I don't want to paint either one of them as a boogeyman.

But I do want to point out that Mike singing the parts, and singing them well, doesn't mean he wasn't clearly negative on the whole thing.

Years ago, when my wife and I were writing for the Doctor Who novel line...  we were handed a new regular character by the editor, which one of the other authors had created.  And we thought she was absolutely a terrible idea.  But we didn't beg out of using her, or do half-hearted work with her -- in fact we sweated bullets to try to make the character work (and got credit in reviews for making the best of a bad idea).  You do that, because your own credibility as a writer (not to mention part of your livelihood) is dependent on being seen to do a good job.

So of course Mike sang the best damn cornfield-crying-crow he could manage.  And nailed it.  But that in no way contradicts him having the clearly vocalized attitude when he *wasn't* at the mic -- attested to by Van Dyke, Marilyn, Brian, et cetera -- of "WTF is this crap".

And anyone who thinks that persistent negativity wouldn't have an effect on a guy who'd already had at least one nervous breakdown, who was also running into doubts about his own abilities at the time, has to do some pretty determined ignoring.

Brian may well still have pulled the plug on Smile even without the pushback from Mike (and arguably others in the band as well).  But in the universe where he got that pushback...  well, it was a sure thing, wasn't it.

Cheers,
Jon Blum

One question: just how persistent was this presumed negativity from Mike?

Did he make a stink about VDP's lyric and maybe have a couple other things to say or was he in the studio nonstop complaining while Brian was trying to work?

Persistent enough that he's *still* saying he had problems with the lyrics.

Regards,
Jon Blum

And once again, so what?

Really!

Ever hear that boot where The Beach Boys are working on Slip On Through and after a vocal take by Dennis, Carl hems and haws and says "I dunno, man! I just ain't feelin' it" and then Dennis says "F*$ck you" (and then farts)?

So, if Dennis had decided to scrap the song, it would be all Carl's fault?

I just wanna say what an amazing treat this Board is!!! Not only do I get to celebrate the exploits of an amazing group of guys, I also get exposed to an extraordinary range of people who've made their passions their life and are happy to share; Mr Stephen Desper; the Messrs Ruem and Stebbins; a cricket history nut who knows a thing or two about our band; John Manning and his extraordinary outdoor adventures, and now a Doctor Who novel writer!!!  Let alone all you other cool posters, nice guys, straight shooters and field experts who add and add to the experience.

:bow Thanks all for your continued inspiration  :bow - now, if only Bruce Campbell would reveal himself as a BB nut and long time poster, that would make my day!

The $64,000 question.


Mike is choosing his words more carefully these days. It's much more along the lines of constructive criticism, not just "WTF is this sh*t?"

If I agreed, I would condescend that Brian was not responsible for his own failure. Enough of blaming the rest of the world for the demise of Smile.

I'm glad that people are off blaming Mike for SMiLE bandwagon, but I do feel things have started to push too far in the other direction.

Look, I can tell you as a bandleader...if guys in the band are dragging their feet on a project, if they're not into it, you can be the most hardcore, get things done dictator in the world (and I have been accused of this in my time)...IT MATTERS.  It makes a difference.  I have to agree that just because Mike did a great job in the studio, doesn't mean he wasn't putting the knife into the project when he was off-mic.  I have to believe, based on the weight of the evidence of those who were there and those I've talked to since, that he was.  I mean, it wasn't the guy's nature to keep his mouth shut when he was unhappy about something.

The real point to me is that Mike may have had perfectly valid reasons.  The Bill Wyman comparison is apt.  Love may not have "got" SMiLE in the way you and I might, but he was a guy whose whole livelihood depended on a certain thing happening, and not only was something different happening than what made the guy his living, but it was taking forever and the person in charge of thing was starting to act really weird and the people he was listening to were people he could no longer relate to.

I think you can be fair to Mike and say SMiLE not happening was not solely his fault.  It wasn't.  I do think it's a stretch to imply that he was mostly fine with it all.  I think there's plenty of evidence that he had deep reservations about the project and they were a factor in it being shelved.  BUT...I don't particularly BLAME the guy.  Standing in his shoes, I can see why that's how he might have felt.

Did I mention that Brian himself said the Boys did not want him to scrap SMiLE?  ;) This was less than a year after the event and not a decade or six after the fact. According to Brian they so much did not want Brian to scrape SMiLE that Brian nearly broke up the band by scrapping it anyway. Brian had such personal issue with SMiLE that he was ready to break up the band to scrap SMiLE. Not only did the band work their tales off to make SMiLE happen but according to Brian the Boys went to the brink of breaking up the band to save SMiLE.  Some how we are thinking the problems were with what the band thought about SMiLE and not the problems Brian had with SMiLE?

PS. Again, Mike's having issues with the lyrics was supportive of Brian because Brian had issues with the lyrics as well. We keep claiming this as some sort of oppositional thing between Mike and Brian when they were on the same page on the lyrics, maybe for different reasons, but the same page.  Still the Boys wanted SMiLE to come out, Brian didn't. Brian wasn't the kowtower, he was the kowtowee. We've got to stop trying to make Brian out as a victim and denying what he felt and did. Well, we don't have to but I wish we would.

At least the box goes some way to clarifying this. With the caveat that any "WTF is this" moments would most likely be edited out (and the fabled Cabin Essence session is apparently missing), Mike seems relatively calm and sings his parts without question. He even sounds like he's having fun on most of them! Not MYke Luv!

Listening to the box/sessions in chronological order the other day really drove home that Brian really sounds like he's unravelling towards the end of '66. I could easily believe, although there is of course no evidence this happened, that even questions from the group about the music could rattle him and cause him to doubt the record.

A lot of the brief episodes that are called up in such discussions (Mike and the CabinEssence lyrics, Brian saying this, saying that)...have such an anecdotal sense.  And maybe not much more.  I go to the music and to what Brian was doing at the time--and can't help but believe that he simply felt it wasn't working. And was perhaps correct.

I can list a bunch of parts in the sessions Smile (of the 19 tracks) that seem to come up short.  Especially as regards a larger conceptual/narrative structure that flows and makes sense.  (Look?  bleh)

Compare Pet Sounds...where every song transports.

Although on the other hand, VegaTables...marvelous.

Yeah, you keep saying this but that doesn't make it true.  Put the quotes down on the board and we can all chime in as to how to interpret what Brian said- he NEVER said the Beach Boys did not want him to scrap smile and that he did over the Beach Boys objections.  that's your interpretation of the quote.  And by the way, Brian was referring to the nonrelease of one song, Surf's Up, not the entire Smile album in the quote.

Regardless, we all know your opinions on Mike and Brian and why Smile was scrapped - there's no reason to rehash it.  I don't think you're convincing anyone that Mike loved it and was a huge supporter of it that doesn't think so already.

Good call Adam! Let's really be careful not to push too far in the other direction! But I don't think we really are yet. What this has basically come down to is..... everyone's point of view is essentially correct!

Mike had issues with Smile which certainly contributed to Brian's state. Some issues might have been perfectly valid. Regardless, he probably could have handled it better.

Brian made the decision to scrap Smile based upon a host of factors. No one factor seems to be THE reason. In fact, if there had been merely one main reason, Brian probably could have overcome it.

So, this being the situation: persisting that it was Mike Mike Mike Myke makes no real sense and the motivation for insisting so is puzzling.

Perhaps not.  But oh heavens, Cam, what makes you think what Brian said in an interview a year after the fact is likely to be MORE accurate, other than being closer to the event?  Yes, that's relevant, but more so is the fact that he's speaking for public consumption while the wounds are still fresh.  There's no way in that circumstance Brian would start blaming the rest of the group.  When you're speaking publicly, you choose your words carefully knowing people -- including the people you're talking about -- are going to be reading them and be affected by them.  He may not have the best PR sense in the world but he knew better than that, at least in the '60s.  It's an interview, for Chrissakes.  

Yes, Brian's is the ultimate responsibility.  Yes, Mike is not the "villain."  But to take what we hear on the session tapes and a few interview data points as having more evidentiary value than the blanket recollections of X number of people doesn't fly for me.  It's taking certain facts in isolation to suit a narrative, and I just have a basic problem with that.  I've been in the studio enough times with enough bands to know that people don't usually vent frustrations when tape is running.  It happens, but I would expect the bulk of the tape to show the band on the best behavior.  The dissatisfaction and venting gets put in different places.  It is illuminating that Mike is participating and seems to be having fun, and it's one more piece of the puzzle, one more part of the picture.  But heavens, it ain't the whole pic.  Mike no es el villain...absolutely.  But completely irrelevant to the collapse of SMiLE?  I think that's just as silly as pinning it all on him.  Not the only reason, probably not the main reason, but it almost certainly was a factor.

Erik -- thought your post was spot-on.

Van Dyke left the first time because of resistance to his lyrics. HOWEVER...he has gone on record as saying the reason he left the second time was because of Brian's behavior. I would venture to say that Parks leaving the second time probably was what finally killed Smile.

Just my two cents...

An interesting view point, perhaps one that may largely acquit Mike Love of charges he "hated" SMiLE or that he played a major role in it's demise.

Actually, the Brian Wilson genius has been misunderstood. His intention all along was to allow it to come out on bootlegs and let fans decide how it goes. Sort of a do it yourself album. He tried the same thing with Sweet Insanity, but it didn't have the same effect.  :lol

:lol

OK, here it is from KHJ's History of Rock and Roll:

BRIAN: A record producer is the one person who is responsible for the end product... the sound that you hear on the record that’s played on the radio. Like, uh, if there is any one person you would attribute the sound of the record to, you’d attribute it to the record producer. So that he is responsible for what you hear on that record.

ANNOUNCER: Brian Wilson of the Beach Boys, talking about the role of a producer.

Brian has been the chief writer, producer, and arranger, leading the Beach Boys from the shaky crest of a fad--”surfing”--to the calm of consistently good music. After the release of “Good Vibrations,” it appeared that the Beach Boys might join The Beatles and Bob Dylan at the peak of rock music. Brian was working on an album called Smile, and according to everyone involved, it was a collection of magnificent tunes that would ensure their supremacy. But the album never came out, and there was a year of silence from the Beach Boys. Brian Wilson discussed it for “The History of Rock & Roll”:

BRIAN: Early 1967, I had planned to make an album, and entitle it Smile. I was working with a guy named Van Dyke Parks, who was collaborating with me on the tunes, and, uh, in the process we came up with a song called ”Surf’s Up,” and I performed that with just a piano on a documentary show made on rock music. The song “Surf’s Up” that I sang for that documentary never came out on an album, and it was supposed to come out on the Smile album, and that and a couple of other songs were junked, uh, because, I didn’t feel that they... well, I don’t know why, I just... didn’t... for some reason... didn’t want to put them in the album. And the group nearly broke up, actually split up for good, over that, uh, that one, uh... that decision of mine not to put a lot of the things that we had cut for the album Smiley Smile in the album. And, uh, so for like almost a year... we’re just now kind of getting back together. 

Because I didn’t think that the songs were... were... were right for the public at the time. And, uh, I didn’t have a feeling... a commercial feeling, about some of these songs that were never released. And, uh, maybe I, uh, sometimes you hang on to certain things, just as your own little songs, that are almost written for themselves. A lot of times, you know, a person will write, and they’ll realize later... that it’s not commercial, that what they’ve written is nice for them, but a lot of people just don’t like it.

TRACK PLAYED: "Good Vibrations"

ANNOUNCER: Brian named his favorite Beach Boys records for the “History of Rock & Roll”:

BRIAN: Some of my complete favorites are:

Darlin’
Caroline, No
Sloop John B
Don’t Worry Baby
In My Room
Good Vibrations
Little Honda
California Girls
Darlin’
and Vegetables

TRACK PLAYED: "Vegetables" (from “Smiley Smile”)



I don't remember trying to convince anyone of that.

Eric, as the purveyor and general analyst of all things pertaining to and or about the general behavior of Myke Luhv(sic)that you are, I find an all too expected absence of severe and repeated negative disussion aimed at any other band member other than his baldness. Would it ever occur to you that there may be  definitive reasons for this phenomenon or out of six original members, there just has to be a bad actor who seems willing to accept the role he took on many years ago and revels in the attention(good or evil) he garners because of it? To basically attempt to cover his tracks after all the years of  questionable behavior towards the major creative entity of this group is not only feeble but but ranks of a certain lack of authenticity. You have to adhere to what you believe about this man and that is admirable, but they all are what they are-Myke will along with the others in the band carry their legacy well beyond their final days.

Well put, but it seems the general regard that the other Beach Boys have been held in is rather negative all-around. Just read Carlin's book! He's a great writer, and it's an awesome book, but throughout it seems to paint the other Beach Boys as merdaholes for merely wanting to be Beach Boys and to carry on, and any amount of expecting/wanting/wishing Brian to do anything at all is tantamount to abuse. Heroes And Villains (the book) painted a bad picture of everyone (Brian was spared nothing): but that's not the point either. Only Stebbins, as an author, seems to get it and know where it's at.

I'll go dig up some examples of this to back up this post (from Carlin's book and elsewhere).

Carlin's book is a biography of Brian. Not of the Beach Boys. He interviewed every one of them still living, and did extensive research and interviews with other people close to Brian and the rest of the group.

If that is his conclusion, then he based it on the evidence he gained as a writer and reporter. And it's not as if he paints Brian in an incredibly flattering way, either.

It's not the information that he reports that I take (light) issue with, rather it's HOW he reports it, says it, communicates it.

Agreed with Wirestone.

Mike Love is an ass....he even admits it. And from what I remember Carlin painted a fair picture of the guys....the Boys weren't perfect, but Carlin always showed their bright areas.

But I'll have to read the book again, it's been a couple years.

See, it always comes back to something like this! No one cares to be informed or enlightened. They have an opinion that they enjoy having and that's it.

Nevermind.

Ya know, maybe Mike Love is an ass.

Problem is, so what?

Maybe I'd just love to be able to be a Beach Boys fan without someone having to constantly feel the need to remind me, convince me, ram down my throat a constant blabber of "but, but, but Mike Love's an ass"!

It's just annoying.

You're harping on Carlin for being negative about the guys: Carlin is just saying it how it is. He doesn't have a personal vendetta against Mike. He has no personal gain in this. Mike said in a recent interview that he IS an ass....it's just his sense of humor. I didn't bring it up to piss you off, I'm just defending Carlin's point of view.

I think Mike Love is one of the most important people in Rock n Roll history....and when people say HE was the reason for SMiLE's demise I laugh at the ignorance. I do have an opinion, and I could care less if anyone agrees with me. Mike is an ass. He's also a brilliant artist. Nuff said.

...Also worth pointing out that because of the roll-back-and-overdub nature of the vocal work, a big chunk of what went on in the sessions with the actual band is lost to us.  For example, Al said he got honked off about doing the "Swedish Frog" grunting and moaning, but that's pretty much unrecorded.  If that survived, people would be treating it as an iconic moment of something-or-other, no doubt...

Cheers,
Jon Blum

Yeah! Hours and hours of Mike and the other Beach Boys brow-beating Brian and begging/commanding him to scrap Smile just MUST not be there unrecorded somewhere proving us all right no matter what the actual recorded evidence shows (namely that we have gorgeous Beach Boys Smile vocals issued by Capitol in a beautiful Smile Sessions package)!

I get the point, but let's not get carried away with assumptions in order to prove...... assumptions.

I love Carlin's book and even get a bit teary-eyed when I bust it out every 6 months or so (one of those books I read over again). The part about his "interview" with Mike and the e-mail he received from Bruce are the bits that make me laugh out loud. La la la ooh yeah baby gettin' down funky chicken. I apologize for that last sentence as it wasn't actually a real sentence and may have seemed irrelevant or inappropriate or even perhaps off-topic. But in the long run, Mike will probably always have a poor reputation in the history of things and former Mayor McCheeze does the Charleston on my hamster while I smoke the wrong end of a canon. Arr!

Hey, I love Carlin's book and bust it out frequently, but still stand behind my opinion. But the last two posts (not including my own) are spot on and my head of steam has turned to honey (dark Belgian beer actually) and I shall put on side B of MIU and hopefully be fast asleep before it gets to Winds Of Change!

I don't think anyone (apart from oldsurferdude, bless him) is going 'Mike killed my puppy and he must be stopped'. Like Rab says, Mike Love IS an ass, but that doesn't ruin his stellar contributions to the band throughout. Although his stage banter does come close at points  :lol

I also wasn't insinuating that all the horrible and debilitating arguments were happening on the sessions where they were overdubbing. But cheers, Jon Blum.

Dude, I wish i had some dark Belgian beer right now. *Sips coffee forlornly*

A few years ago Brian, rather bizarrely, claimed in a Q magazine question and answer feature that 'Mike and Dennis hated Smile. They hated it'. I remember at the time being baffled by such a statement, particuarly in light of Dennis' famous 'Smile makes Pet Sounds stink' quote. But it just goes to show how easy it is to get muddled re who said/liked what etc, particuarly when Brian himself often doesn't seem too sure.
Regarding Mike not liking Smile: watch the Endless Harmony documentary, in which Mike states 'I just didn't resonate with the music'. So while he might not have HATED Smile per se, he wasn't - by his own admission - it's greatest fan. I like Mike, but he does have a habit of rewriting history depending on whichever way the winds blowing at whichever particular time.

 It's important to know that Mike and Brian had a deal before recording Pet Sounds. Brian would get full control over one album and then they would record a more commercial album next. I guess Good Vibrations happened and then Brian wasn't willing to stand by his word (maybe rightfully so).

I think Mike had his reasons to "hate" Smile.

Brian, bless him and his wonderful music, is hardly a reliable source of info: his memory is not only suspect but also seriously compromised, and his recent announcements re: any reunion (prior to the announcement of same) are ample evidence of his messing with people's heads: loved the comment that he was glad it was finally out as he was running out of things to say* !  :-D

[* - or as my parents would have said, lying...]

Although my opinion might mean little, I'd like to say that I agree with every one of your points.