The Smiley Smile Message Board

You usually hear Brian gushing over Phil Spector, whereas I've only seen very few comments from Spector himself on Brian or the Beach Boys. But tonight I came across an example I hadn't seen before when reading an old interview with the 'Tycoon of Teen'. It's from Roy Carr's multi-part Spector piece in New Musical Express , 1976, the final part. Here's the excerpt...

No doubt about it, Spector was a great source of inspiration for Brian, the Wilson Boy Wonder.
"So I've heard."
To the point where Wilson's idolisation went through so many changes that it was transformed into acute paranoia.
"You don't want me to pay his medical bills as well, do you?"
Despite such quips, Spector is deeply flattered by the way Brian Wilson utilised his innovative recording techniques to enhance his 'Pet Sounds' project.
"That's what I'm here for", he says joyously. "Listen man, if I help anyone, if I encourage anyone, if anyone emulates me, it's OK with me man - just so long as they admit it. Most of them don't.

This is of course in stark contrast to what he had to say about Brian three decades down the line when interviewed by British journalist Mick Brown; the guy who later wrote a very interesting biography of Spector, which I highly recommend. Very interesting read.

The reason for me posting this is to ask people here if they know of any other instances where Spector is quoted specifically on Brian & the Beach Boys? I'm quite fascinated by the relationship between these two musical giants - or perhaps I should say, the LACK of a relationship considering how they both frequented the same studios, used the same musicans and worked within the same style and industry back in the day. Imagine being a fly on the wall during the tracking of the Spector backing track for Don't Hurt my Little Sister / Thing's are Changing! Rodney Bingenheimer has also mentioned that he and Brian attended the fabled 'River Deep, Mountain High' sessions and were awe-struck by what they heard & saw.

Which makes me wonder - does anyone know what the story is behind this cover photo?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/images/B0000C3HHW/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=229816&s=music
I recognise Brian, Spector, Jack Nietzche (with shades in the background), Mike and Bobby Hatfield of the Righteous Brothers.

By BROOKS BARNES

LOS ANGELES — It’s not quite a monster movie, but it has some of the same elements: an outsize character, a mysterious death, plenty of metaphor for mankind’s destruction. And lots and lots of excessively teased hair.

HBO Films has decided to tackle Phil Spector, the bewigged record producer who created the “wall of sound” in the 1960s but is now serving a prison sentence of 19 years to life for murder. Starring will be Al Pacino. (Think about it.)

David Mamet will write and direct the film, which HBO cautioned is in the very early stages of development (it’s still untitled). Barry Levinson, who won an Oscar for directing “Rain Man,” will serve as executive producer.

Mr. Spector, 70, was convicted of second-degree murder last year; prosecutors successfully argued that the record producer shot Lana Clarkson, a struggling actress, in the foyer of his mansion in 2003. Mr. Spector’s lawyers as recently as March were still arguing in court for his release.
It was an ugly end to a celebrated career. Starting in the late 1950s, Mr. Spector produced a stream of pop megahits, including “Be My Baby,” “Da Doo Ron Ron” and “You’ve Lost That Lovin’ Feeling.” He completed and mixed the unfinished tapes for the final Beatles album, “Let It Be.”

Mr. Pacino, also 70, has an imposing stare that bears more than a passing similarity to Mr. Spector’s favorite facial expression. But what exactly interested the Oscar-winning actor in the role?

“He just saw a very interesting character to play, and he likes the sensibility of David and Barry,” said John L. Burnham, an agent at International Creative Management who represents Mr. Pacino, Mr. Mamet and Mr. Levinson.


http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/10/08/al-pacino-to-take-on-phil-spector-in-hbo-movie/

From what i understand Phil Spector was always pretty dismissive of Brian Wilson i think he said something along the lines of i didn't think he was that talented to begin with and he once through brian out of a recording session because his piano playing wasn't good enough apparently. If you ask me Spector was bitten by the green-eyed monster.

To Mike's right is Ron Swallow and to Brian's left always struck me as Bob Hope! Corrections welcome.

To a degree I can understand why Spector would be angry at someone like Brian Wilson: although Brian said time and time again that he was inspired by Phil Spector and that he [Spector] is a genius, no one -- ostensibly for Spector this meant mainly 'critics' or 'industry people' -- paid any attention to him. Instead, it was Wilson who became the popular one labelled as a genus and lauded by virtually everyone. Despite the fact that Spector did it all first and did it best to boot!

So, yeah, I can see that if I were Spector and I thought that, I'd be pretty angry too. On the other hand, I think Brian moved beyond merely imitating Spector and did something entirely different with the basic Wall-of-Sound template. I think that is why people tend to laud Brian, because he was not just imitating Spector -- he had the formula down, and he was moving beyond it (not to mention the rest of the pop music world too). Maybe Phil was a little jealous of Brian's own talent too and he actually felt a little threatened, even!

Okay, I'm done my amateur psychoanalysis.

I think Spector admires Brian more than he is ready to admit, since he obviously faced some stiff competition there. Personally, I think Spector is the greatest producer, but Brian is a better songwriter and vocal arranger, and he was the leader of the world's greatest band.

You make a lot of excellent points.  As great as he was, Phil never really diversified his sound - he was the master at what he did, but he never seemed to have that ambition like Brian had to progress and keep growing.  Yes, Brian learned an awful lot from Phil, and without Phil, virtually every Beach Boys record Brian ever made would have been different in some way.  But Brian had essentially mastered the "Wall of Sound" by 1964.  He could have continued making those kinds of records, but instead he took what Spector had taught him and added other elements to it, most importantly his own creativity and desire to make each album better than the last in every aspect.  Spector could have never pulled off anything like Pet Sounds or Smile.

Keep in mind too that Brian's "genius" label isn't only based on his skills as a producer/arranger.  Unlike Spector, Brian is one of the most accomplished songwriters of the rock era, and would have been even if he hadn't been the one producing and arranging the records.  It would be a bit unreasonable for Spector to really think that his achievements (while certainly great and underappreciated to a degree) deserve to be held in the same esteem as those of Brian.  As you point out, I think jealously is a big part of Spector's feelings towards Brian - Phil graciously took Brian in as his student/protege, Brian learned the lessons well and proceeded to school his teacher.  Even though Brian has readily acknowledged how much he learned from Spector (and has, in my opinion, always been a little too deferential to Spector's work vs. his own), it makes perfect sense that it would leave Phil with some animosity towards Brian

But Spector DID diversify his sound - the Beatles and solo albums, the Dion album, Ramones, quite different from the wall of sound he pioneered. And he did cut a few great albums, too, it wasn't all about singles, try "Love is all we have to Give", by Sonny Charles & the Checkmates from '69, an overlooked masterpiece.

Yeah, the part about Brian not being all that talented is from Mick Browns interview with Spector just before the Lana Clarkson killing. It's featured in Brown's great Spector-bio 'Tearing Down the Wall of Sound.' But Spector overall comes across as pretty cocky during those interviews so I'm not so sure if that's how he really feels or if he's just putting on a performance as the big genius dismissing everybody else like he's done with other industry people (George Martin, David Geffen, Elvis etc.)

I do remember reading somewhere that Spector was quite impressed by Brian during the 60s and that he symphasised with the pressure he was under from both the Beach Boys, Murrey and Capitol. It may have been in Mick Brown's book as well....

Who's Ron Swallow?

I'm with Chris though - Spector's main problem seems that he didn't venture too much outside his Wall of Sound approach. The Beatles and solo albums I reckon was more a case of others keeping Spector on a tight leash so he couldn't pour a gazillion instruments onto the songs. There's a story about him remixing Instant Karma for the US single and adding echo and other things in order to make it sound bigger and more bombastic.  :)

Also, even though the mid to late 70s work he did with Cher, Dion, John Lennon (Rock'n'Roll), Jerri Bo Keno etc. is more a dirge of sound than a wall it's basically still the same approach he used in the 60s, albeit slowed down. It's funny though - as much as I love his 60s recordings, I love these 70s productions even more. I really wish he had followed this path much more. For those who haven't heard this stuff, check out these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8utX6amsOhE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0dlPgCjzzU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2W_SyUu4vQ0

Gee the drums sound similar in al of those...

What made the Wall of Sound click for me was when I read He's A Rebel by Mark Ribowski, published in 1988. The extensive descriptions of what Phil was trying to accomplish illuminated the process, and listening to "Why Don't They Let Us Fall In Love?" drove it home in practice. The way the drums, percussion, and bells overwhelm you in that song and join with the sung lyrics to unleash unbridled teenage angst is magnificent! (I know, I know -- it's sacrilege that this didn't occur to me until recently and that it wasn't with "Be My Baby" or whatever other popularly-lauded song!)


I think this is correct too, that Spector basically never stopped doing what he did in the 1960s, he just was more constrained because by the 1970s he wasn't working with performers he could control absolutely and so had less wiggle room. As jejune as I find The Beatles, I have always liked the comparative simplicity of John Lennon/Plastic Ono Band and it surprised me to learn Spector produced it! He could hunker down and turn out some claustrophobic jams if he wanted, and that is the sort of style he should have followed more, I think.

I like Terry Melcher's observation on the difference between the two (from the Endless Harmony vid), it seems pretty spot on to me. 

The compressed piano sound on "Instant Karma" and "Imagine"  was Spector's greatest accomplishment.

He was a roadie, I think, and relative of Brian's (i think).

Roadie yes, relative, no.

Which is?

Not an exact quote (don't have the doc around me right now): "Phil had these layered sounds... But it sounded angry. Phil's thing was anger. Brian's was love."

I always found Phil's sound to be much more of a true "Wall of Sound" where as Brian was a little more nuanced. I think its also worthwhile to consider the differing instrumentation: compare Today to Phil's best records. Today is still very much a guitar album.
Brian's non-Beach Boy's productions are very similar to Phil's though.

Yes, essentially what SloopJohn stated.  He made the observation that Phil's thing was all about anger (which I took to mean that wall of sound bludgeoning the listner), where as Brian's approached was more tender, his thing was love, "Brian was always looking for love."

Well... yeah, that's a really obvious and superficial thing to say. I mean, at least the Ribowski book went into how precisely Phil did what he did to create that sense of "anger" hovering over all of his 1960s output. That is what made it interesting to me and why I more closely listened to Spector's stuff the next time after reading it. Without it, it's still obvious that he's trying to assault you with sound so if you were to go "hey, Spector tries to overwhelm you with sounds!" I would think a correct response would be "yes, I know". To make it a little more interesting I would think it'd be worthwhile to explain how he did this -- and in the case of Melcher, how this differed from Brian's production techniques. I mean, it doesn't need to get overly technical but it'd surely be a lot more interesting than something so soporific. Beach Boys fans are capable of higher-order music discussion too, and sometimes I wonder how well people in and around the Beach Boys realise this!

I AM NEEDLESSLY ANNOYED AT THAT QUOTE

I don't think it has really anything to do with anger, though some of the material Phil was working with was a little more caustic. I think its more of a sense of grandeur that made Phil's music so 'huge'.

Brian and Phil are kind of like an ornate samurai sword and a sledgehammer. Brian has more intricacy and craft, but when Spector hits you, he bloody well hits you.

I mean, the difference between Be My Baby and Wouldn't It Nice, musically, speaks for itself. Spector never got really sophisticated like Brian did. But he just got THAT SOUND out of a studio. 

He got dumber during the 70's as well - The Nilsson/Cher track is especially telling when put against his own version from '66, done with Ike and Tina. So much less finesse, just plodding drums and saxophones. I think that the Cohen, Dion and mid 70's Lennon sessions just sound drunk and half assed. I love them, but they aren't comparable to his heyday. He lost it somewhere after Sometime In New York City.... The Ramones record was really different for him (probably because they were so opposed to his usual tricks), and then he just.... stopped.

That's a good way to put it.

I often wonder if Phil lost his touch or if it was the change in recording that made his 70's recordings so bland. His sound is so much about the room and that mono, lofish ambience.

Wow, I really disagree. To my ears the 70s material radiates a lot of emotion with that slowed down approach. Heck, I even prefer the Cher/Nilsson 'A Love like Yours' to Tina (and Ike, though he was only billed for contractual reasons) But you're right that he didn't exactly break any new ground as compared to the 60s so from that approach, yes, he didn't really evolve...

By the way, people tend to forget that the Ramones wasn't his final project. He produced two songs for Startsailor's 'Silence is Easy' album just prior to the Clarkson case. Some Spector affectionados dismiss the 'Silence is Easy' single but I think it's really, really cool. Could easily haven been even more Spectoresque though - according to interviews back then the group members told how they had to keep Spector from putting to much echo, glockenspiels, chimes and what have you not on the final recordings.  :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EImPJ2CM7xg

I think Phil did a top notch top with "All Things Must Pass". Of course it didn't hurt that he had first rate material to work with.

I don't think Spector's music was really about anger.  More a sense of desperation.  Also, "Do I Love You," in my opinion, is one of the most love-filled records I've ever heard.  The overall sound just seems infused with love.  And some of his ballads, like When I Saw You, are really very gentle.

I see what Melcher means. Those records are aggressively huge, although this obviously doesn't apply to his ballads - very tender, especially 'Love How You Love Me'. Ever heard this version? Nino was a sideman of Spectors.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbhbc1zt31E But yeah, the energy of his 'rock' songs is overpowering. But it's not metal, for christs sake.

I think the anger thing is slightly reductive, though. Be My Baby or River Deep aren't angry records, they're thrilling. They capture the sheer rush of joy love gives you. I can only speak for myself, but i tend to listen to Spector records the most when I have a crush or something, as opposed to Brian records which i can listen to any time.

The 70's records are good, but they're just sloppy. Of course, this sloppiness results in ridiculously botched experiments in sound like 'He's Got The Whole World' by Dion, which sounds like Phil passed out on the mixing desk and phased the entire damn thing  ;D See what I mean? In a way, Spector in that condition would have produced an utterly huge punk record, but by the time he got The Ramones he was too drunk or crazy, i guess.

As an aside, I am amazed how much John Lennon picked up from Phil in terms of production. Listening to his Nilsson production, p*ssy Cats, or Mind Games, for instance, and it's bizarre how little of George Martins production style he used....

In an alternate life, I would have been one of those awkward go-go dancers on these 1960s teen music variety shows that dance the same way to every song no matter how ill-fitting...

Reviving this thread for a question.

While looking through some old threads I came across this post from board member Forget Marie:


This is very interesting. I've never ever heard about Spector sitting in on a BB session before - or for that matter about Brian visiting him in the mansion as part of any Landy therapy. Does anyone here know more about this? I certainly don't recall reading about it in the books on BB or Spector I've read.

Phil was never a kind person by any chance - He let his feelings show, and he let them show hard. It's possible he might've been a bit more than jealous of Brian, as well. Considering Brian is considered to be one of the biggest geniuses of the time, and Pet Sounds to be one of the greatest achievements of the era. And what's Phil most remembered for in the public eye, nowadays? Let it Be and, now, killing a lady. While the Beach Boys' reputation has gone through the mud over the years, people still LISTEN to them. Part of the blame is Phil's inability to adapt to the times - kinda reminds me of Roy Orbison in a way. After 1967, the world didn't need, nor want, the boy-girl romance that Phil offered. He became a recluse, and shut off the public eye. And when he came back, he never had nearly the input he had over the previous records he produced. Let it Be was still mostly recorded by the Beatles, after all, and all Phil could do was some overdubs here and there - and people still debate over the merit of even THOSE. The same, really, with All Things Must Past. He managed to get away with some overdub work, but nothing comparable to his old hits. Not to mention, he had to work in stereo, and he hated stereo. And John's work with Spector further reduced his role. Plastic Ono Band was an underproduced marvel, completely incomparable to the early stuff. Imagine was a little closer to the mark, but I think John was effectively handcuffing Spector. He never really had a chance to shine anymore, in essence.

Brian, on the other hand, COULD adapt to the times. If he hadn't mastered Spector's own playing field by All Summer Long, he definitely did by Today. And he just grew, and grew, and grew, peaking in Pet Sounds. And he changed his formula so much after that, too. SMiLE is vastly different than the Wall of Sound, and after that, he completely abandoned the approach, turning toward underproduction, with a few exceptions. He shined, and shines still, on whatever he does, mainly because he still has the majority of the input.

Both are wonderful producers, and both revolutionized the playing field of the sixties. It's just, Brian managed to grow past the sixties, while Phil couldn't really do much OUTSIDE of it.

Just look at how Brian towers over Phil, yet Phil just brushes him aside...Brian coulda squashed Phil like a little insect!   >:D

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/images/B0000C3HHW/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=229816&s=music

I certainly never heard about the visit with Landy, but I do remember in Brian's "autobiography" a quick story about Phil poking his head in the door during a Beach Boys session, telling Brian "I hear everything," then leaving.  I've never seen that anywhere else though, so who knows how true it actually is.

Gosh, that's right! I had completely forgotten about that little bit in there. And yeah, it could easily just have been thought up for dramatic purpose considering the overall nature of the book...

No, this part is true. There is even an interview on Youtube with Brian and the rest of the BBs on a TV show from the 80s where Brian talks about having met Spector recently. It's really awkward how it comes up. The interviewer asks the BBs about groupies, and Mike says, "I'll toss this hand grenade to Brian."

"Well, groupies are a lot like listening to a Phil Spector record... I met Phil a couple of days ago and we talked about some things..."

And he goes on from there. It's not an exact quote, but that's basically what he said. I wish I knew how to find it again on Youtube.

Funny, I just saw that for the first time the other day!  It's from their 1984 Tonight Show appearance, with hostess Joan Rivers. 

if that was indeed said during that interview... here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKg46eth5UU

Hey, I agree with your assessment of Spector, but what's with the Orbison remark? Ol' Roy had a fantastic two or three years at the end. Had he lived, I think he would have continued having hits. As it is, his widow has managed his catalog very well over the past twenty years.

OK, so my quotes were of just a little, but Brian confirms the meeting.

I always find groupies to be more like a Brian Wilson record myself...but anyway...

I think Melcher's quote is spot-on if you're a music producer, because part of the art of production is getting past the technical aspects of making the music and figuring out what drives the people who make it.  Put another way, let's say you need Joe Guitar to play a certain part, but he keeps overplaying or blowing the take.  As a producer, you can deduce from the person's playing that JG has ego issues, or he's distracted and depressed, and it comes out in his playing.  You can move than on a macro level to how other producers operate and what drives the making of the music.  When thought of that way, Melcher's quote is extremely perceptive and right on the mark...you just kind of have to understand that mindset of understanding what underlies creativity to appreciate why he'd put it just that way.

One thing I'll say about Phil is that he was in a really bad car accident in the mid-70s and almost died. It's possible that he suffered some form of brain damage from that, which can lead to drastic alterations in a someone's personality.  Sure, he was a crazy control freak before the accident, but after it, you get the Ramones recording sessions and stuff like that...

I'm not saying he was bad, I'm saying that he couldn't adapt to the times. In fact, I love Roy Orbison, love his voice, love his songwriting. Unfortunately, he couldn't manage to integrate with the Summer of Love, the psychedelic age, and etc, etc. His soul just wasn't with it. He did have a great comeback, though

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41MQJXTP0TL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Fair enough...and, oh yeah, LAMINAR FLOW...hmmm...of course there were a lot of years where Orbison could not adapt (wasn't this mostly true for the majority of rock artists who started in the 50s?), but his comeback, and subsequent profile, was/is way beyond what Spector has been able to achieve.

This and the cover for "Looking Back With Love" are neck and neck in the race for most hideous record sleeve of all time.

That is actually a really unfortunate cover. I don't know how anyone could be okay with that actually being mass produced...

I don't believe Spector was in the studio during the recording of "Let It Be" but was handed the unmixed tapes the band gave him.

I love how he just has phil spector on the mind 24/7.

Yerp. And that Checkmates record is bloody class

You're right - he was only called in after the sessions to see if he could inject some energy & enthusiasm into the songs. By the way, in the famous NME interview that I mentioned in my first post in this thread he claimed in a not too subtle way that he had produced the fab four all along during the 60s.  ;D Oh, the megalomaniac!

He was actually on the plane when the Beatles came to the US. You can see him just behind the guys when they leave the plane on some of the footage from back then.