The Smiley Smile Message Board

How exactly did the extraction go about? After the court ruling, did Landy just say goodbye and then move out one day in early 1992, with some of the surf nazis still lingering around?

And as I recall reading, there was some additional attempt of Landy contacting Brian at some point about a year after no longer being around (in violation of legal agreement) - was this a phone call?

I wonder what would have happened if Landy had dared show his face at a Brian solo show. Besides getting in legal trouble, that is. Would people have hassled him? I have a strong hunch he followed Brian's career from afar after rightfully getting the boot.

The conservator trial was avoided at the last minute cause the lawyers came to an agreement, which Landy said he'd obey. He showed up at Brian's house on his birthday in '92. Got fined a $1000 or so.

After all their legal problems were thru, Landy, Alexandre Morgan, Kevin Leslie, etc. were broke and moved to Hawaii.

''Brian Wilson has entered into a settlement agreement which will allow Brian to receive guidance and assistance while at the same time allowing him the freedom to lead his own life as he chooses,'' said a statement released by both sides.

The name and duties of the conservator weren't disclosed as part of the agreement.

Landy was technically not a part of the legal case brought by the family but ''he has voluntarily agreed to be a part of the settlement,'' said a source close to the matter who spoke on condition of anonymity. http://www.apnewsarchive.com/1991/Conservator-Appointed-for-Beach-Boy-Brian-Wilson/id-23a448d6482eed7d92833b708d0d1d88

Kevin Leslie lived w/ Brian in 1992. Idk when he was extracted. Maybe when Brian reconnected w/ Melinda in '92. I've read that Brian ran into her one day when he took a smoke broke while doing some recording at West Pico Blvd, which is where the Brains and Genius studio was.

A source close to the conservatorship case said the settlement will mean a final parting between Wilson and Landy, adding that a conservator will be named to handle Wilson`s business interests. ``The deal being discussed will take Landy out of Brian`s life within two years,`` the source said. Part of the conservator`s job, the source added, will be to ensure that Landy doesn`t have an alter ego in Wilson`s life who would act as a go-between for Landy and Wilson. Critics have raised concerns about the constant presence of Kevin Leslie, Wilson`s personal assistant originally hired by Landy, at the Beach Boy`s side for the past six years, charging that Leslie is a conduit for Landy.

But Leslie denies the charge-``I`m an employee of Brian Wilson``-and the source said that Leslie is not beholden to Landy and will cooperate with the Wilson-Landy separation. ``I think (Kevin) will do a good job,`` a source said. ``I don`t think Kevin will jeopardize his position.` http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1991-11-17/entertainment/9104140084_1_eugene-landy-stan-love-separate-ways

Kevin Leslie actually commented on a post Brian made on facebook. Christmas 2012: Kevin S. Leslie: Mele Kalikimaka Brian. December 21, 2012 at 7:47pm

Thanks for the info. I wonder how awkward that 1992 meeting was. Or perhaps not, who knows. I wonder: did Landy actually think he might be able to worm his way back again into Brian's life somehow at that point? 

Worth mentioning that Kevin S. Leslie, to use the name he goes by professionally, has a LinkedIn profile - which, per the rules of this board, I am not linking to. But if you're on LinkedIn it makes interesting reading.  Brian is not mentioned in it - nor is Gene.

The earliest date in it is 1999, when he was working as a drug counselor in Hawaii.  Since then, he has gotten a doctorate in psychology, from the for-profit school Argosy University. Apart from one year in Florida, he's been based in Texas since 2008. Until last June he was working in various agencies of the Texas state government, but is now with a private outfit in a town on the edge of the Dallas-Fort Worth area.

He lists a professional publication in there - which is about the treatment of methheads, so I have the feeling he's built up the kind of experience that could get him a technical advisorship on a Breaking Bad knockoff if he ever wound up in the LA area again. (Though since his alma mater doesn't seem to have accreditation in California, that seems unlikely.)

I still wonder if anyone involved with L&M was in touch with him about portrayal rights.  Doesn't Cusack say something about "Kevin there," looking over at the surf Nazi on the boat before he jumps off of it?

What rule is that?

guitarfool2002 in 2014, in the GOTD concerning Leslie: "Posting personal contact info is not appropriate for the board and will not be allowed going forward. There is a line which cannot be crossed between posting public or business links to Facebook pages or Twitter feeds from public figures (like following various musicians, artists, etc), and those which are personal, including email addresses, personal and non-public Facebook pages, direct links to "LinkedIn" pages and other similar accounts. They can be searched elsewhere, but linking to any contact info beyond a public page is off-limits, and it should not be a part of a fan forum like this."

It is Evan that he refers to on the boat.  I think Kevin is the guy that is on the date with Brian and Melinda, but I don't think they ever use his name.

You're right, he does say Evan. And I guess the guy on the date's supposed to be Kevin, but he looks a bit taller.

I find this hard to believe.  Broke?   How did they move to Hawaii then?  Did they float over on a raft?   I would guess the Lawsuit
did cost Landy quite a bit of $$$, but I would also speculate that he clearly put some of the $$$ away for a rainy day.  I've been told
he lived quite comfortably in Hawaii with Alexandre for many years before he died.  It is also my understanding that with others Landy
treated, or so has been said, he had plenty of $$$ put away as well.   If he had to liquidate his assets to be removed from Brian's life
and move to Hawaii....I'm sure he was more than well off.   Doubt he was "broke".   Hell, I'm broke, but I can't afford to live in Hawaii,
much less have a house on the coast which Brian lived in with Kevin Leslie.   

I also tend to believe that the true basis of the settlement to remove Landy from Brian, or Brian from Landy will never be known.  I speculate
that there were so many legal twists and turns involved, that even to this day, some things aren't very clear at all.  For instance, the REVAMPED
version of BRIAN WILSON, when it was re-released with Bonus tracks, etc....There's no sign of Dr. Eugene Landy's name on ANY of the tracks,
as a co-writer.  Brian told me himself that Landy and Alexandre had written their fair share of the words for many of the tracks.  The settlement
removed their names, but I still wonder if they receive any royalties or received any compensation when the album we reissued.   

I'd be interested to hear what anyone might have to say about this.   I've always wondered.

Dogbone

The removal of Landy's & Morgan's names from song credits - including the 1985 BB album - was compensated by a financial settlement. No idea how much.

I don't mean to hijack this thread, but I just thought of an interesting moral dilemma question that I'm curios to get everybody's opinion of. If Landy actually did contribute any kind of lyrics or melody ideas for Brian/The Beach Boys, does he deserve a credit? Does he deserve to have his name removed simply because of who he is and what he represents to Brian and the group?

Thanks for the info AGD.  Can I ask what your source is?   I figured there was some financial settlement, but was this in the terms of the agreement reached?
Or was this something which was worked out with all of the parties involved.  I figure who ever took over for Brian, and the Lawyers for the Beach Boys may have
had some sort of hand in it.   Can you elaborate at all? 

Thanks,

Dogbone

A valid question, the same could be said about Manson.  The guys being complete skuzballs has nothing to do with the fact that they did make some contributions to released songs, whether that's an inconvenient truth or not.

It is odd that credits can be changed after the fact,  contrary to actual historically documented facts of authorship, but I guess that's just the way goes. It doesn't make me mad to see these jerks not have credit on album pressings, but at the same time it isn't exactly truthful.

Is Metal Beach the only song on which Landy is audibly present either vocally or instrumentally? It would be weird to see if a person could be removed from performance credits when it comes to actually being present on the track.

I was told that when writing the liners for the KTSA/BB 2fer reissue in 2000.

I am not a Landy apologist by any means and still I feel he should be properly credited for the work he did on BW88, in the interest of historical accuracy if you will. He played a big role in Brian's life around the time and I find it wrong to pretend he had nothing to do with the creative process around the time. Also, much like Love You, BW88 is an album mostly appreciated by hardcore fans and among these everyone's familiar with the full story anyway, all the more since the recent biopic.

Although I don't have it with me, I believe the original Brian Wilson album gave him a vocal credit on Rio Grande.  Please correct me if I am wrong.

You're right - Landy, Paley, and Brian were originally credited on backing vocals.

 I agree with this. Even if the people are struck off financial benefits from royalties etc. The name of the actual writers should be accredited to songs they worked on in my opinion....

Perhaps if you start a petition drive, Landy's estate will give back the $$ they received in the settlement, so Landy and  gang can get their names back on the songs

The more things change, the more they stay the same...

Landy did not co-write or work on songs in any traditional sense whatsoever. He wormed his way into the process by drugging the hell out of Brian and sucking the very air Brian was breathing. He had no business ever being around a piano or a recording studio or what have you with Brian anywhere in sight. He deserves jack.

Exactly, the movie makes it clear Landy was a slimeball and nearly killed BW with his "treatment"

Brian had done a pretty good job of nearly killing himself before Landy came along

Based on the original "lyrics" he wrote for "Black Widow", I heartily agree. Not to mention his mix of the 1988 album which was literally laughed out of the room when the suits heard it.

Not this sh*t again!

Exactly! 8)

Landy and Morgan cowrote the lyrics to many of Brian's songs throughout the 80s. Just because he had no business being in the studio with Brian doesn't change the fact that he was there.
After all the money Landy bled from Brian it was only right that he never recieved another penny from these recordings, but to rewrite history and pretend that Landy never contributed creatively during this era is just daft.

Landy was a leech in all area of BW's life. Total control meant having his name on everything BW did.

Given the circumstances, it's nearly impossible to know what the doctor's true contribution was to any individual song. Given his exploitation of Brian in other areas, it's not a stretch to imagine that he contributed little to nothing of value. Even if he ended up writing a verse or two, the particulars of his exploitation make the removal of his credits a basic moral necessity.

Hey, if Landy feels slighted, maybe it's about time he spoke up.

He's too busy chilling* with this dude


(http://mysticinvestigations.com/paranormal/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/satan-the-devil1.jpg)

* pun intended.

I really think you should make it your mission to ensure history is recorded properly, fight this terrible injustice wherever it occurs and make sure the good name of Eugene Landy isn't besmirched. All of his creativity can't be forgotten by history. His contributions were so critical, so worthy of fighting the good fight. Brian Wilson has stolen credit from Eugene Landy for long enough, right? This revisionism must not stand! Maybe team up with Evan and pursue legal action, I'm sure Mike Love would find it "interesting."

There's still time! Don't let "them" win!

I agree that Landy and Morgan should be listed on the sleeves as writers if (for good or ill) they wrote some of the lyrics. Not to entitle them to any money - certainly not that - but just for the historical record. (If they were credited spuriously, that's another matter). Or is it legally impossible to "credit" someone on a song without paying them royalties?

Even if you strip the moral/ethical issue away and just look at the relative normality or lack thereof of the whole Landy situation, the fact that Landy and Morgan's name were taken off of songs that they probably did technically write *something* for at some point, is really not a big issue.

If all else were normal, then it would be an issue worth debating. But this occurred in a universe where *all that stuff* happened to and around Brian. He was the victim in a criminal long-term series of events that are pretty unique and heinous. The whole series of events leading to Landy even being there and "writing" anything are so bizarre and criminal that, to fixate on the historical accuracy/morals/ethics is, for lack of a less clichéd way to put it, like arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

If this had just been a case of Brian having a personal business manager or something where the relationship turned sour after the manager writing some lyrics, I'd say it would be uncalled for in most circumstances to remove their name. But that's not what was going on with Brian. The whole thing was predicated on a truly bizarre, unconventional relationship where the opportunity to "write" anything with Brian shouldn't have been there, and a situation where Brian didn't have the capacity to enter into a songwriting partnership/agreement.

Additionally, even if nothing was out of the ordinary at all, if a writer on a song wants to sign an agreement where they are compensated in some way and they both sign away their royalties *and* agree to remove their name from a song, that person is entitled to do so. Just as names can be added to songs via lawsuits or settlements, so too can names be removed.

Who knows, it's unlikely, but theoretically Landy could have actually thought "You know, the circumstances around writing those songs was so inappropriate and sketchy, the right thing to do is to remove my name and wash my hands of the whole thing."

Can we get Charles Manson's name in the liner note credits for 20/20 for the sake of historical accuracy? Oh wait, maybe the Beach Boys would rather not have a notorious murderer being credited on one of their albums. Likewise, given the psychotic nature of Landy and the circumstances around that '88 album (didn't Brian and some friends have to sneak into the studio to record non-Landy-lyrics for a song?) it doesn't seem unreasonable to not have his name on the credits of the album.

If one is searching for a historically accurate account of the process of recording BW '88, there are plenty of credible sources in print and on the web that can shed light on this era...no need to hijack the album liner notes with the name of a thug.

Really, if this were pursued to the legal limit,  Landy should have been subject to asset forfeiture for any profits gained beyond legitimate therapeutic activities. He should have received no money or credit for his "song writing" as it was a consequence of criminal activity.

No one is rewriting history. You are assuming Landy contributed creatively because why exactly? Because he said so at the time? Because he made sure Brian sang a line or two he may have come up with? The circumstances of WHY Landy was around Brian 24/7 and WHAT he was doing all those years yield any such claimed credit on any songs by Landy laughable. He did not have a creative bone in his body. His name was justifiably removed from those album credits.

Is Landy's "Brian" autobiography truthful literature? At the time Landy claimed it was. 

Well, it did list "George Fell" as a track recorded during Smile. And it had a picture of Brian from the August 1967 Hawaii dates playing bass captioned as "laying down tracks for Pet Sounds." And it shows a picture of Brian holding a dog that's certainly not a beagle and saying it was Banana. And that "Rio Grande" was orginally going to be a song called "Child, Adult, Parent."

Sounds truthful to me.

You really are an idiot.

Very unlikely I'd say.

Landy's book may have been full of crap but I've yet to see any insider dispute that he and his girlfriend were writing with Brian at the time. Or is Brian to take the full blame for SMaRT GiRLS now?

I've said before and I'll say it again; I still can't believe that Never Learn Not to Love was not quietly removed from subsequent repressings of 20/20.

If Manson's name had been initially credited on the first pressing, it seems certain either the name would have been removed, or the song entirely. Sad, because the finished product turned out to a great song and production, regardless of its origins.

I've posed this question before, but nobody seemed to know, so I'll try again: when did fans and the public become aware of NLNTL having a Manson connection? Was it right away, or not for a number of years after its release?

If (and I must stress, IF) Landy's contributions actually made it to any of the released songs, then I think yes, he DOES deserve label credit (and only that, nothing financial)....but only after the same happens for Gary Usher on 'Walk the Line', and not before.

Well I'm glad it's still on there 'cos
(a) it was by far the best thing Dennis had done up 'till that point
(b) it turned me on to the LIE album which is actually a great record.

I know by the time of the Tate/LaBianca trial it was common knowledge that The Beach Boys had covered a Manson tune.

That's out of line.

As was his snarky response to my original post.

It's out of line to provoke by calling another board member an idiot or any similar name no matter how the debate/discussion/argument is going. Consider it a warning.

Sorry, I'm with Mike's Beard on this. Okay, maybe the use of the word "idiot" might have been inappropriate and knee-jerk but there was a high degree of provocation – Ontor Pertawst's response seems far from polite and may well have had an element of goading.

Billy's suggestion – – strikes me as a route that might have been much more acceptable to all parties, including those keen on historical accuracy.

In a perfect world? ( But then, in that world, Landy would never have been able to get close enough to be writing songs)

 Dear ASCAP/BMI -- 
Please allow eugene to have his name on the songs but don't send him any $$...   
 IS Ludicrous

EL sold /relinquished any rights he might have had. There's no need to revisit on his behalf, and only riles tempers

Please let it go

I take this with a grain of salt, John, considering you've been challenging and questioning me personally in recent weeks if not months up to the absurd discussions a few weeks ago where you tried to twist my words and intent into something it was not, then joined in a victory dance for which there was nothing to celebrate a victory in the first place. So, maybe half a grain of salt or less would be more fitting. If it's personal, that's your problem to deal with. Don't use that to defend a clear breaking of the rules of the board based on your issues with the moderators.

Stating again, it's fine to give and take and have debates and arguments, but it crosses the line when someone starts with the name calling routine directed at fellow board members and posters. That isn't welcome, it's not allowed as per the board rules, and it will not be tolerated. Period, end of story. No matter how much you want to second guess it, a board member called another board member an idiot, and that will not be tolerated, thus the warning being issued. That's the final word.

Besides, I'm a jerk... not an idiot.

I have documents proving this. Keep up the miserable work, Mike's Beard! Maybe you can be special friends with Evan and he'll sell you his dad's old leisure suit in exchange for all the help fighting the vicious tide of historical revisionism. Calling people idiots is a great first step in this long process. Best of luck!

Almost touching to see Manning being so petty, I suppose he'd be all for people calling him names as well. Grudge-a-go-go! Hopefully if someone called him a blithering moron he'd be equally understanding, right?

You guys seriously want to roll around in the mud over... Eugene Landy? That's what it's come to? By all means, go salvage his songwriting legacy... I'm sure that's a noble cause that will attract a groundswell of support.

I'll leave you to it, then. This is pretty tedious stuff and not worth annoying the mods.

Um, yes. This a thousand times over.

In most circumstances, I'm in favor of crediting as many writers as possible (which means, for instance, that Ringo should have credits on a bunch of Beatles songs). But Landy's association with Brian was not normal or usual. He was essentially a hostage-taker, a terrorist-therapist. Removal of his name from those songs is not only defensible, but as I said earlier, a moral necessity.

Exactly wirestone!

A great choice of words with a "terrorist- therapist" because that who Landy was. Its a miracle BW survived and is doing great things even in 2015.

But again, Landy being a scumbag who forced himself on Brian creatively doesn't alter the fact that he had a hand in many of the songs Brian wrote during this period. It's part of Beach Boys history, like it or not.

Landy is not dead enough.... ::)

Last I heard he was still slug bait.

Speaking of taking things with a grain of salt, let's those of us who wish to, do the same with this example of moderating.

You obviously have some personal axe to grind with John - pls grind away via pm rather than try to disguise your grievances as appropriate crowd control.

This. I deplore Landy's actions as much as the next smileysmiler. What motivates humans to behave like he did to fellow humans is completely beyond me, especially as I tend to naively assume the best in people from the outset before starting to form an opinion based on experience. But rewriting history? Isn't that what Stalin did?

Accurately and fairly record the terrible things Landy did, for all to learn from. Accurately and fairly record the credits for songs for future Beach Boys historians to learn from. Spin his royalties into a charity account for victims of similar abuse to benefit from.

I agree with you guys (am also intrigued about that mix). Wirestone is perfectly on point above: "He was essentially a hostage-taker, a terrorist-therapist. Removal of his name from those songs is not only defensible, but as I said earlier, a moral necessity."

Again I'll say, there are plenty of credible sources one can cull from, both in print and on the web, to find out who did what on the album...these sources will not go away. But giving a criminal thug who terrorized and abused Brian official recognition for his "work" on the album is morally reprehensible.

I don't get it. It's well established in the U.S. that one has no right to profit from fruits of criminal activity. Why an exception for Landy?

You can hear the Landy mixes on "Come Back, Brian," I believe. They're pretty bad.

Many thanks for that. Been an age since I've played that but I'll dig it out tomorrow.

Just devil's advocate senseless bantering, seems to me, from those who usually don't stoop that low

Okay. Thanks for clarifying. I was baffled.

Just so it's on the record, I know what's going on and it won't work. Pass it on to other interested parties.

With that out of the way, why didn't you take this to PM, Alan, instead of once again trying to call me out as the asshole moderator of the board in a public post?

Moving forward, perhaps you should consider taking your own advice about taking things to PM's, but in case you forgot I sent YOU one back in June (June 18th if you want to check) in reply to one of your posts directed at me, and you have yet to reply to it. Rather, you chose to throw numerous challenges and underhanded digs at me in your public posts for everyone to read. So that's the result of trying to keep things like this off the board, and not broadcast it for all to see. And I get called the hypocrite? Sure.

Another "perhaps" to consider. Perhaps what you're being told isn't the whole story, or beyond that isn't totally accurate. Wherever that applies, consider applying it.


Was that too long-winded of a post?

This is all getting to be a mighty personal storm for a supposed Beach Boys message board. And it's a shame.

The MO that the  Beach Boys collectively and individually with respect to songs they wanted to record written by people outside of the group  was to buy the individual's  copyright interest out and to credit the group member that was interested in the song. They  did that with Manson and Landy, and with Ersel Hickey,they bought the Bluebirds copyright, but couldn't realistically credit a group member with writing it because it was enough of a hit in the 1950s that it would have been  ridiculous to say a group member  wrote it or co-wrote it. Part of the group's approach was to pay generously a song's writer,then publish it through Sea of Tunes and later Brother.

Many thanks for that insight Peter. I find it an odd approach; understandable that the bought-out writer will appreciate the payment, but a clear shame that someone else gets he Actual credo for their work. Not just in this case but any works by anyone, anywhere, in any field.

Art and creativity as a commodity? I'm not terribly comfortable with that.

Other than "Never Learn Not To Love", which songs did The Beach Boys do this with?

The deal with Landy as a "treating provider" (and I include his whole crew) is that the minute Landy wanted to "change careers" he needed to relinquish his "treatment duties" and another treatment provider brought in.  The conflict of interest is just too great.  His prime duty is to his patient. 

Once he engaged in the business aspect, he (and his agents) should  likely have withdrawn from his care.  But, somehow he got away with this out in the open. It seemed to be an open secret.  He was photographed at the board with Brian.  He developed a company with Brian.  And, hindsight is 20/20 but somehow he evaded prosecution.

The idea of "buying out" a writer seems rather weird both in terms of needing to "own" the copyright, and certainly to just stick their names on the song. The BB's had covered many songs, some more popular than others. Why all of a sudden would they need to hide a cover version? Especially when they were doing less covers on later albums compared to their early stuff.

And why buy the copyright, even if they kept the author's name? Sure, if the song ended up being a huge hit, it might end up being a good investment.

How often did they actually do this? I know there is evidence they had this frame of mind (apparently this may have been why Ed Carter's "Surfer Suzie" or whatever it's called didn't make the cut for the KTSA album; Carter wouldn't sign it all over), but other than a few things like Manson's song, how much evidence is there that songs on BB albums credited to actual BB's were actually songs written by outsiders and then bought out and credits changed?

The Landy (or Gary Usher) situation doesn't even seem to fall under this category. In the case of Landy, nobody denies he co-wrote some stuff; they just took his name off with a settlement to further remove him from the picture. In the case of Usher, it appears he was just forgotten or purposely left off (or maybe they felt they had "bought out" Usher when they parted ways with him in 1987; I'd have to go back and read the Usher book again to recall).

For that matter, is even the Manson thing a case of Manson being "bought out?" Or did Dennis just take the song and put his name on it?

But how many songs presently credited solely to BB band members are known to have actually been written *completely* by an outsider, only to have their name removed by a financial agreement?

It just doesn't make a ton of sense to me; especially considering they surely could have found a song with true hit potential in the 80s or 90s if they were willing to shot around to outside writers and buy them off. Or I dunno, maybe that's precisely why they couldn't do it, because many if not most writers would not be willing to both sign over their copyright *and* remove their name from the credits. If you actually had any hit-writing potential, that would be the dumbest thing to do.

I'm guessing the songs on the '85 album that had Landy in the credits.

And IINM, "It's About Time," as well. There was a post about it on this board not too long ago...man, talk about finding out there's no Santa Claus...

Landy always claimed that working with Brian was part of his 'treatment', which seems to be how he managed to get away with having duel careers. Plus you got to imagine that those close to Brian were just so relieved to see him still alive that they daren't risk rocking the boat by questioning Landy's tactics.

I have to check, but I'm pretty sure my copy of the 2000 remastered KTSA/85 2-fer still has the Landy credits. 

The ghost of Gary Usher must be heartbroken by Landy not getting writing credit.

It does not. ... I think. (Need to get out the actual liners to check.)

The change seems to have happened between 1995 (Landy is still credited on L&M and Melt Away in the IJWMFTT soundtrack notes) and 2000, when the twofer and the BW88 reissue came out. Landy's name was absent from writing credits in both (although he retained his executive producer credit for the latter).

Thanks, FdP...Given that the Landy/Morgan credits were there and then were removed during the litigation/settlement period in the process of Landy's removal, it seems fairly obvious that this has already been settled in a legitimate court of law, and the court of SS doesn't have much jurisdiction in this argument.  I guess the great mystery is that a group of posters here seem to want to "re-value" Landy both as a therapist and as a composer/producer.  It's a subject that's been revived, over and over, from every angle.  One might suppose that there's a reason.  I feel fairly certain that I don't want to know what it is.

As my posts have indicated, I don’t think Landy’s name being removed is an issue at all. But for the sake of historical accuracy, as Wirestone mentioned, it appears the settlement agreement removing Landy’s name from the song credits took place *after* Brian was separated from Landy. The 1995 “IJWMFTT” CD still had Landy’s name.

Also, I don’t think there has been any disagreement on *how* Landy’s name was removed. On either the ’88 BW CD or the ’85 album two-fer CD, there is a little note explaining the removal of Landy’s name. Even those advocating for Landy’s name to be kept on don’t seem to be disagreeing with the mechanism by which his name was removed, or the legal legitimacy of it.  

the Beach Boys song with the weightiest Landy songwriting credit (IMO) MALE EGO seems to've been lost over the years, perhaps as a result of these legal proceedings

Clearly, you weren't someone arguing the legal issue.  There are some here who don't seem to be able to let the "Landy contribution" issue drop, from any perspective - that is what I find puzzling.  What's the investment there?  Why?  

Considering the large number of BB songs (both as a group and individually) credited to other writers, with or without one or more group members also receiving credit, I'm baffled by this statement.

In the case of Manson, I don't think any official copyright interest was purchased by the Dennis or the BBs. Instead Dennis stated that he felt he had provided enough financial recompense to Manson and clan, and so he went ahead, without Manson's knowledge, and claimed full writer's credit, with the publishing assigned to Brother Publishing company.

As far as Landy is concerned, it sounds like you are saying that Landy was involved in writing some BW and/or BB songs for which he did not initially receive writer's credit, instead being bought out. But what I'm assuming you intended to say is that the songs for which Landy and Morgan initially received a writer's credit had their copyrights bought out and their names removed. In the case of the 1988 Brian Wilson album, six differenent co-writers, including Landy and Morgan, were listed on the initial release. After the settlement with Landy, only his and Morgan's names were removed, with the four other co-wiriters still receiving credit. I really have no idea what the terms of the settlement with Landy were, but are you saying that Landy and Morgan actually received significant financial consideration for giving up their co-writer's credits? I've always assumed the loss of the co-writer's credits was some sort of penalty for Landy's mistreatment of his patient, but am certainly open to additional info on the subject.

Are there any other instances you are aware of where the BBs, either collectively or individually, bought out a writer's credit and claimed full writing credit for themselves?

I have a vague memory of a case being alluded to on this board some time ago; I think it was Andrew (GD) but I might be putting him on the spot in bringing it up. Can you shed light Andrew?

Btw I don't think, as one of two folk are maybe suggesting, that anyone's trying to stand up for Landy's creativity or any such in suggesting that his name ought to be on the credits. It's nothing more than a matter of historical accuracy. Just like getting the ingredients list right on food packaging. Folks here in the UK got quite upset several months ago when "horse meat" was omitted from the ingredients of several meat pies and similar products. Speaking personally, I just like to know what went into the stuff I'm consuming, be it steak and kidney pie or The Beach Boys 1985.

Landy's credit was removed from "Crack At Your Love" but remains on "I'm So Lonely" & "It's Just A Matter of Time" on the 1985 album reissue.

Anyone got the new vinyl 1985 reissue? How are the credits there?

Landy's credit is removed from all three songs on the BB 85 vinyl reissue from earlier this year, but the statement "Special thanks to Dr. Eugene E. Landy and Carlos Booker" remains.

So who is Carlos Booker?

One of Brian's "minders" during the second (and I think first too) Landy era.

I kind of felt the same when I read that story.  I believe it was in the thread for "Sweet and Bitter" and "Out in the Country" round abut the time the MIC boxset came out.

Nobody is but trying to explain that to certain posters would be a waste of oxygen.

:lol

On a side note, I seem to recall my first ever Pet Sounds cd crediting "Dr. Eugene Landy as Excecutive Producer" or something along those lines. How on earth does one take credit for something recorded a decade before they even met the person who made it?

I agree with the above posts. What this "credit changing" story says is that if one party has enough money, and the other party doesn't, you can basically rewrite history. So, David Sandler, Scott Bennett, and others (I'd add Joe Thomas but he already got his ass sued by Melinda and probably signed "papers" going forward), if for some reason you find yourself unemployed, desperate, or in need of some quick cash, I've got a phone number for you.

God, you hate Brian Wilson.

More like Landy put his name on Brian's songs the way Mike Love put his name on "Under the Boardwalk." Once this operation to restore Landy's credits is complete, maybe we need to take a hard look at Kokomo next. In the interests of historical accuracy of course. All of us are above petty feuds with our perceived enemies. The sincerity shines through... you can tell by the smiley faces.

Seriously, what a rabbit hole you guys are going down here. Historical accuracy? C'mon. You might as well wear t-shirts that say TRANSPARENT BULLSHIT. All of this isn't occuring in a vacuum, astute readers definitely can work out the context and axes being grinded.  Just look at SJS's post up there... gee, what could possibly be the underlying motivation there?

Yes, that rings a bell.

I thought you promised to stay out of this thread. You lack follow through.

I'm not gonna swap kindergarten insults with you, Beard. Or make this personal and bug the mods, that's what I was talking about.

But doubling down on this charade is preposterous. You lack conviction and bgas called it. Pure devil's advocate nonsense from people who should know better. You'd holler like stuck pigs if any of Mike's lyrical contributions were challenged... but wow, invoke the specter of the diabolical Melinda Wilson in defense of EUGENE FUCKING LANDY. Not transparent at all.

What a twisted version of "historical accuracy." A new low, fellas. Enjoy the view.

There seems to be some kind of theory that there's a conspiracy goin' on…

Jeez, how many more times are you going to modify the same post? Got it all off your chest yet?
Nobody is defending "FUCKING LANDY", but the fact remains that he collaborated many times with Brian Wilson. Many would even argue hinder. You can't change the past so why whitewash it?

He didn't you dolt, Landy slapped his name on there as yet another way to steal money from BW.

I think the preferred term is 'agenda'.

By a certain online PR manager for Mike Love....

Huh? Now you've completely lost me… be bold, name names and spell it out.

I agree that this is probably the case with a number of the songs. However, if he actually added some part of any actual substance to a song, whether we like it or not, regardless of whether or not he was a sick, despicable f*ck (as he was), that contribution is done and can't be undone without time travel and removing the contributed part(s), if any legitimately are present within any songs.

I can understand and get the concept of removing a person from credits (for moral, ethical reasons) in a very unique circumstance such as this, and believe me I am in no way trying to stick up for Landy's ilk... but simply as a matter of historical accuracy, it's a subject I find interesting discussing, even though I know it's touchy and can trigger nerves for some people.

For example, I really dig the tune In My Car. While the album Still Cruisin' has yet to see a reissue that would remove Landy/Morgan's name from it, if the lyrics were in fact written (or partially written) by either of them, I personally find that an interesting factoid to know when listening to the song. I don't *want* to think that some people with despicable intentions wrote lyrics that I'm bopping my head to, but at the same time I don't want to put my head in the sand like an ostrich and pretend that they didn't in fact write them (if they in fact did).

In the interest of " historical accuracy ". On the BW 88 album, my original copy, Love and Mercy is credited to Brian Wilson and Eugene E Landy. I asked Brian last week for a very specific reason , what exactly did Landy write on Love and Mercy. Answer: " I wrote every note and every word. He wrote nothing , just put his name on it. ".  I'm going to ask him more next week when I see him about Landy's contributions to specific songs.

Signing off

Many thanks Ray, I've been hoping you'd add to this thread as possibly the best source of definitive facts. That's all I'm keen to know: facts.

That's my stance on the whole matter in a nutshell.

Yup, the whole of CenturyDeprived's post (which I missed initially; some flub with browser refreshing I think) nails the issue nicely.

It is of course, troubling and despicable to know that Landy added exactly zero to Love and Mercy and tried to take credit for it. Maybe on another song he added slightly more than zero, and on another one, slightly more than that. I certainly don't know specifics. However, I should add that if a contribution was in fact made that was so incredibly minimal as to barely merit a credit whatsoever, it's perfectly fair to think that it doesn't deserve to be there (and I say that aside from the relationship the two of them had)... much like the oft-debated credit of Mike on Wouldn't It Be Nice, which I think is pretty ridiculous, even if the  contribution is in fact slightly more than zero.

I can certainly understand that a blanket approach to just wanting remove Landy from credits makes the most moral sense, but ultimately the concept remains just a bit odd to me - and I say that with the utmost respect to Brian (and I think Landy is an absolute piece of sh*t), because I look at crediting as something unrelated to Brian's admittedly horrible and unique situation; I'd feel the same way if this were about a movie script, a rap group, or any artistic project which a very, very sh*tty person added something to the song. If Murry, for example, had actually produced or cowritten a BB song, and during the writing he did all sorts of despicable, unethical, physically and emotionally abusive stuff, I'd still reluctantly say that it would be a bit odd if his name were removed if his hypothetical contributions actually were present on the song.

I think Phil Spector's a giant jerk who took advantage of people and emotionally abused his employees, but I can't deny that he was an inextricable part of many great songs. Of course, that's a way different example, since Landy and Morgan may have (at best) contributed a little here and a little there.

But for the record I am NOT saying that I think Landy's credits need to be reinstated or anything. I'm not advocating for Landy in any way shape or form, just having a discussion about historical accuracy out of my own curiosity, that's all.

I think Landy's writing credits on the '88 album are mostly superfluous.  Brian worked with hired writing collaborators like Jeff Lynne and Andy Paley and I highly doubt Landy was sitting in on those writing sessions.  Plus, from what I've read, Russ Titelman was very adamant about keeping Landy out as much as he could.  It's possible of course that he and Morgan suggested a line here and there and sometimes that line may have even made it in but that's not the same as sitting down and composing a song together, it doesn't really warrant a co-writing credit.

Well put again, CD.

Very true and it would be interesting to hear just what pinch of salt contributions Landy and Morgan added to the songs they received credit on. I always thought that the general consensus was that by the time of the Sweet Insanity era, Landy was imposing his 'talents' on Brian every step of the way.

Spector also slapped his name on songs he didn't write.  Any song credited as Greenwich/Barry/Spector or Weil/Mann/Spector could easily have the Spector credit removed and it wouldn't make a difference (for the most part at least, I know Mann has said he at least made a small contribution to "You Lost That Loving Feeling").

Fair enough. That may in fact be completely accurate.

True - but that despicable (and apparently successful?) attempt to add his name to songs he didn't write doesn't mean that other songs that he did in fact cowrite should have his name removed... which is where the confusion lies with the concept, in my eyes at least.

I reiterate that I'm just playing the devil's advocate for the concept of credit removal, as it's a subject I don't know a ton about from a legal standpoint. Please know I don't want to come off like I'm defending scumbags, of which Landy is certainly one! I think that Landy is/was an assclown who from an ethical standpoint deserves less than nothing.  It would be interesting for me to read up more about the concept of other cases where this has been done, in various forms of media.

Remember Glenn Frey's motto, "Write a word, take a third".  8)

Um, I think that's also the Lovester's motto.

No, his is "Write a hook, make out like a crook".

Either that or "Pretend the existing bass line to Good Vibrations is a hook he contributed," but that's not quite as catchy.

Claiming that he wrote the melody to that part is as laughable as any of Landy's claims that have been refuted, like Brian just noted to Ray. Yes, the chorus words (minus the words GV themselves) could be considered hooky, but to claim contributions to the melody is obviously excessive as proven by the tracking sessions.

Technical question: if one has credit, on the sleeve or disc, does one inevitably have the right to claim royalties or can the two be separated?
Aside from that, while I'm all for historical accuracy, it can be gained without rewarding criminal action. Everyone here knows and anyone with internet access can learn easily enough that Landy to some degree was involved in the writing of some of those songs. Not many people know, or have the resources to learn, to what degree. Does credit on a sleeve change that? If someone has no information and they pick up an album that says Eugene Landy cowrote half the songs, would that give that person a historically accurate picture? The situation was complex enough that any understanding of the "cowriting" by Landy must come with a reasonable amount of contextual reading. I think credits on a sleeve actually would inspire a lesser understanding of the true history. Maybe an asterix (edited to add: or an Obelix. How embarrassing is that mistake?) on the sleeve with a note that Eugene Landy had a sinister and illegal involvement with the creation and creator of those songs with a pointer to some reference material would best serve history.
 

You make a good point there Emily that someone in theory could pick up a copy of BW88, scan the credits and think "Wow, that Gene Landy was a pretty good songwriter".

Back in the day, Beach Boys Australia published a sheet with Landy'a original lyrics for Meet me in my Dreams. Some of it was the same and parts were different -and worse- than the releaaed version ("oh we're gonna have a love attack"). I supposed that the parts that remained unchanged were Brian's.

By the way, during the "Wilson Project" time with Gary Usher, did Usher witness Landy contributing lyrics? Did Gary collabrate with him specifically on lyrics? He believes that some of Brian's lyrics that he dislikes ("I'm broke", "Baby let your hair" and others) are Landy's, but that's his guess. I don't recall any episode of Landy writing lyrics during that time as told by Usher, which is remarkable considering how active Landy seems if one reads the orig. BW 88 sleeve. This may point to at least some of his co-writes being a questionable.

The indisputably Landy penned original lyrics are, without exception, utterly dire.

Going back, someone asked what the "Landy" mix of Brian Wilson sounded like. Hopefully Ray will pitch in here with the true gen, but I was told back in the day that it was, oddly, not dissimilar to how Murry mixed his solo album.  :o

Thanks very much for this.

Yes -- thank you for checking on that, Ray.

May I just say. This whole debate is really interesting, I've enjoyed reading it (a bit like a soap opera at times, wait, I hate soap operas)

 I guess I would say that a lot of shitty people make music, if we judged everyone by moral standards as far as credits go then some albums wouldn't have been written by anyone. I agree that Landy's estate shouldn't make any money off royalties etc. but I do feel historically IF Landy contributed (a big IF in some cases) then his name should be there, for better or worse. As for people unaware of the stories thinking he was a great writer then that doesn't overally wash with me these days. With current technology anyone interested enough in a song or to form an opinion on someone would turn to Google and Wikipedia to find out more, it wouldn't take long for the penny to drop....

For me, being a shitty person is not a reason to lose credit; using illegal coercion to gain the credit in the first place is a reason to lose credit.

 I agree that in some cases that is the situation but we must also concede that Landy/Morgan did write *some* of the lyrics and/or music that Brian produced in those years. Where they wrote there should be credit; where the name was just 'tagged on' for royalties etc. then there should not.

Exactly. There are tons of bands/songwriting partnerships where some aspect of the relationship has gone sour where one or the other of the writers probably would love to take the other person's name off of it. It doesn't happen.

And again, even if Landy hadn't engaged in massive heinous criminal activity, it appears he *willingly* agreed to remove his name from these songs as part of a settlement. If someone willingly agrees to have their name removed (for whatever reason, which *could* include the person in question believing their name doesn't belong there), there's really nothing left to argue.

Further, multiple research sources (not to mention thousands of copies of the album floating around) document how the songs had Landy's name, which was then removed. History has recorded that Landy's name was on the songs, and that it was removed legally and by agreement of all parties. History also records how Landy came about being in the position in the first place.

Is there any indication that Landy or Morgan wrote any substantial amount of the music (not words) to any songs?

Also, what if Landy and Morgan actually *didn't* write anything on some or most of the songs they received credit for? I have to be honest, I'm a bit surprised that Ray mentioned that Brian says Landy had *zero* to do with "Love and Mercy." It never sounded like one with especially clunky potential Landy lyrics ("I'm master of my fate, when I accelerate", etc.), but if there's a precedent for Landy sticking his name on something where he didn't write *anything* (which is surprising considering he didn't stick his name on every Brian composition during those years), then that casts extra doubt on the validity of his credit even when we dismiss the unethical and illegal practices that put him in the position in the first place.

There are also legal concepts that could negate Landy's credits as well. If Landy knowingly drugged and incapacitated Brian to the point where Brian was led to believe Landy helped when he didn't, or to the point where Brian couldn't remember, etc., then they could have actually taken the issue to trial to try to remove his name. It wouldn't have been the most far-fetched case.

When reading 'The Wilson Project', Usher talks about Landys tinkering and the lyric sheets that Brian would come in with, Usher says that he could tell Landys work a mile off from Brians. So I think it's fair to say that Landy *tried* to write with Brian. With the control he had at this time I find it hard to believe that he allowed *none* of his ideas or lyrics to be recorded and released. So, I'm pretty sure he's responsible for some of Brian's output at that time. **

 Legally, you're right and I hadn't really thought of that. I think the truth is that the only person who know how much Landy contributed is Landy himself (and maybe Brian at times....if he can remember) and so that is lost forever. As you say, Landy agreed to have his name removed (possibly under duress though) so maybe it is right that that's how it stays

** I may be wrong on this, it's a while since I read it but I think it goes along those lines

Also worth mentioning is that, given what Landy did to Brian, if they actually had to pay Landy and Morgan anything to get their names off those songs, it’s frankly a little extra kick in the nuts to Brian and his family that Landy made a little extra money later in the 90s off that. Granted, it may well have been Brian and his lawyers that initiated that process. But in the big picture, it’s just another extra heinous aspect of Landy’s legacy.

I can only hope maybe Brian’s lawyers were able to low-ball them by letting them know they could litigate the issue to get their names off of those songs based on all of that criminal, fraudulent activity.

Or maybe all they had to do is say they'd drop filing criminal charges against Landy if he took his name off of some bogus claims for credit?  No one knows what happened - here anyway, obviously - but I don't think Landy/Morgan were in a great negotiating position at that point. The Attorney General of CA was obviously not impressed with him. 

Anyone who has ever had a conversation with Brian may well find something from that conversation in one of his songs.  Not everyone is inclined to monetize every word of an interaction with a successful artist.  Some people value friendship over greed.  What do you think the odds are that Landy was one of those so inclined to claim credit for anything and everything? Does that mean he deserves credit in some of your minds?

Again, I keep wondering why this is such an issue.  No one here knows what happened.  Why the wringing of hands over this?  Brian's bio is coming out soon, so let's consider all this after he has his say.

This thread has me concerned that Morgan and Landy's writer's credits have most likely been removed from Smart Girls. When looking at the writer's credits I'd hate to see that piece of garbage blamed 100% on Brian.

I'd already brought that up - oddly enough the room suddenly went quiet.

It's NEVER going to be released, so it's a moot point.

Exactly Billy! Funny how Mike's rap opus was not only released but a single and on baywatch. Way to waste a BW appearance Mike. ::)

 :lol :lol :lol


 I know you're semi-joking but am I right in thinking the song has never actually been released?

True confession...

I actually don't mind Summer of Love. It's dumb, true, but kind of a guilty pleasure.

*runs*

 :lol Have your band cover it!

:lol

Actually....hmmm....

*runs* ;D

Hate to say it, but Smart Girls sorta was almost released on that promo tape sent out to a number of people... it's almost (though not quite) as "released" as Holland's "We Got Love" was for 40+ years. It slipped out and was actually on a product that actually physically duplicated copies were made of in a factory. That's about as close to an actual release as you could get without it actually being a proper release. Certainly more "released" than Lazy Lizzie or something like that.

I wish there was a CONTROL + Z command for that having happened though!

Yeesh.

:lol

I was just rummaging through my overly vast 45 collection and came across Brian's Sire Records "Melt Away" and "Love and Mercy" singles.

"EXECUTIVE PRODUCER: DR.EUGENE E. LANDY"  all in bold caps credited on both sides of the 45 label. "Melt Away" songwriting credits: Brian Wislon/ Eugene E. Landy. On the flip side, "Being with the One You Love" writer credits:  Brian, Eugene E. Landy and Alexandra Morgan.

On my "Love and Mercy" 45 rpm picture sleeve the label again credits: "EXECUTIVE PRODUCER: DR.EUGENE E. LANDY"  all in bold caps credited on both sides of the 45. (though he is not credited as EP on the picture sleeve for the L&M song, just the B side "He Couldn't Get His Poor Body to Move". Landy credited with Brian as co-writer of both songs.

According to a couple of folk I corresponded with at the time, Landy did write two lines/one verse of "L&M", but the Sire suits demanded that this -

"I was prayin' to a God who just doesn't seem to hear
Oh the blessings that we want most are what we all fear"

- be edited out before they'd release it as a single. And it was, and by God they were ab-so-lute-ly right. Clunk, clunk, clunk.

And Brian's still right - Landy had nothing to do with the released version.

But Brian did sing that verse on at least one tv appearance. Personally, I like that verse. It's not any worse than "I was sitting at a crummy movie...."

Personally, I think Landy's lines stink. On the other hand, "I was sitting in a crummy movie...." does a great job of setting the scene for why we need Love and Mercy.

Exactly. It's super charming, too.

Dear oh dear - well, just so it's on the record, I have no idea what you are talking about re "what's going on and what won't work"
Good for you tho'. Nor am I aware of other interested parties whoever they may be.

Next, I don't recall calling you an asshole moderator: they're your words, GF.

I get the occasional PM, including the one from you, and I send the occasional PM - I hold no-one to any obligation to answer mine (and some have been unanswered) and I reserve the right to respond only to those that may be of an agreeable tone and intent.

What's your definition of numerous? Mine's "a lot" or +20 (happy to negotiate): again, I don't recall throwing numerous challenges or underhanded digs.

Thanks for the "perhaps" advice, but again, you've lost me there; not sure where you're going with that unless you can provide further detail/illumination.

I don't enjoy having to post stuff like this, and I generally prefer to stay out of the skirmish zone.  I come here mainly for information - you've provided some of said info generously and expertly - and to celebrate/enjoy the contributions of those who help keep The Beach Boys currency and legacy alive, accessible and balanced.

But, if the actions & characters of reasonable posters are bought into question at the cost of addressing offensive behaviour, I'll be sticking my nose in. Where's that salt pig?

-A

Appalling.

What, that he wouldn't take the bait and prolong this goofy nonsense? Take it to PMs, otherwise put away the smelling salts.

I think it's appalling that Alan was made to feel obliged to stand in front of class and explain himself, then gets such a dismissive response.

But I'll leave it at that. Done here for a while.

If only that were true, Manning. We can't resist!

See? Can't resist. It's adorable!

Firstly John, that "asshole" comment was explained and wasn't at all directed at anyone...so why bring it up? Secondly, I found the supposedly appalling reply of "snore" a funny way of showing just how much crap has been slung at GF from you guys. Click on that "snore" post and see how useless and dismissive Alan Smith's response was to Guitarfool in that previous thread. It was totally pointless, yet not surprising given the nature of the posts here lately.

Way back when I first arrived here there was a handful of posters who I came to respect...they most always steered clear of the BS and drama. This tit for tat stuff is (I'll take some words from bgas earlier in the thread) coming from people who normally wouldn't stoop this low. Give it a flippin rest. Got a problem with a mod? Think he's not up to snuff? Do the adult thing and PM THE OTHER MODS with examples and complaints. But stop clogging up the board with this stuff.

Alan and John are two of the good guys IMHO.  I think it's a sad day when it's being implied that they have agendas.  I know how that feels because the same thing happened to me a while back.  A lot of nonsense of course.  This place has gone downhill.  I used to think we were all like minded, in that we were fans of the Beach Boys.  End of.

It's all about the music, man. That's why we argue and snipe at each other and whine how things have gone downhill instead of actually talking about the music.

Then again, this was a thread about dear dead Landy. Not exactly a subject that brings out the positivity. Although I am positive he's dead.

I agree Ontor, we should discuss the music more often!

Discuss what you want. You can have a perfectly civil discussion about even as sordid a character as Landy as long as people leave out the hysterics.

crummy is correctly spelled crumby

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/crummy?s=t

crumbiest online dictionary fer sure

Off topic, but similar...

I just read the saddest story about Mickey Rooney's last years, being mentally/physically abused and financially raped by his wife and stepson. Some of their despicable actions sound almost exactly like classic Landy. How lucky we are that Brian escaped.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/features/mickey-rooneys-final-years-833325

And looks like Rooney's evil stepson had a mullet just like Landy too...

I am not aware of any other psychologist compromising the  psychologist/client professional relationship like Landy did with Brian. Imagine another art form, such as fine arts...Leonard Bernstein or Georgia O'Keeffe, as an example
Would Bernstein have let his psychologist alter his West Side Story compositions or Ms. O'Keeffe allow her shrink to paint over her landscapes or flower paintings? The answer is a firm no, and that is why Landy's interference with Brian's songs is the ultimate disrespect of his art. This is why Landy's name was removed from Brian's compositions.  Artistic rape is still rape.

"...Mark says he learned Rooney had a breakdown while in Australia filming 1998's Babe: Pig in the City, after which his stepfather was prescribed strong medication. He says, "They put him on these brain psych meds and things, and my mom was administering them — and she didn't know what she was doing." Adds Charlene, "[Jan] said, 'I have to keep him high to be onstage, and I have to keep him quiet and subdued when he's at home.' " (Jan denies this.)..." 

Gee, that sounds familiar.

And yet people here keep defending Landy...

It's all so odd...well, if these people are really fans of Brian Wilson...;-)

That can't be right.

Crumby looks like the name of a really ugly and grumpy claymation character.

Brief mention of the Landy era in Jeff Lynne interview in the new Mojo; apols if this has been posted elsewhere; also this seems the best thread even though it's not strictly 100% on topic. If you got out of bed on the wrong side, well tough! ;)

Mojo: do you recall your sessions working with Brian Wilson on his self-titled "comeback" album?

Lynne: I hadn't known him at all, but Brian asked me if I wanted to write a song and produce it wih him. "Yes, please – I'd love to." I went to his house in Malibu and wrote it with him right by the seashore; his place was only a couple steps from the sea. Him playing piano and me strumming guitar and we came up with the song, Let It Shine.

Mojo: The song is co-credited to Dr Eugene Landy – Brian was still in his grips at the time.

Lynne: Yeah, that was pretty grim, actually. [Landy] got struck off didn't he? There were all the minders around and stuff. But Brian's great now and he's got that lovely wife. Anyway, we got to the session and I played lots of the instruments: bass and rhythm guitar and keyboard, and he did some keyboard, and we co-produced. Despite our production backgrounds, here wasn't a lot on it actually. It's a nice tight-sounding record.

Interesting sort of non-reply to the implied question of Landy's so-called collaboration.

Yeah, I was curious if Jeff Lynne chipped in any money to remove Landy and Morgan's names from the credits.

I didn't think Landy was on the credits for "Let It Shine."

He's not on my original copy....and my cassette tape is from 1988.

Landy's name indeed was never on "Let It Shine":

(http://img1.iwascoding.com/4/paid/2013/08/15/CC/42C63CA115FA41F99E8046597BD0D984.jpg)

That might explain why Lynne treats as an irrelevant sidebar.

I highly doubt if Jeff paid any attention or ever looked at the label credits. In any event, the interviewer was confusing certain certain Landy writing credits with Landy's E Producer credit on the song/album.

(http://www.beachboys45.nl/pic/RSA/07%20solo/WEAPRO281_B%20Brian%20Wilson%20Let%20It%20Shine%20EDIT.jpg)

Mike Love defends Landy. Don't know how I missed this 'gem' interview. Sorry about the repost:

http://bedfordandbowery.com/2015/06/mike-love-of-beach-boys-on-love-mercy-poor-brian-hes-had-a-rough-rough-time/

This was definitely discussed at length here back at the time the interview was published. Not one of Mike's finer moments. I think the context of his comments made it especially offensive, already being defensive about the contents of a movie he hadn't seen, and the patronizing "poor Brian" commentary.

I think there is room to weigh and consider Evan Landy's comments, once they were made in an article. Ultimately, Even Landy's comments were kind of sad and forced and pretty lame, to be kind. But once his commentary was out there, it certainly didn't hurt to consider them and think again about Eugene Landy's place in Brian's life. But really, Mike Love is not the guy that's probably best to make such a nuanced, anything-approaching-objective analysis.

From my point of view as a reader, Mike's comments, whether he intended them to or not, came across as having an agenda (not wanting to endorse or say anything positive about the "Love & Mercy" film), and using something, *anything* (in this case Evan Landy's comments) to try to offer something to contradict the L&M film.

But again, objectively not one of Mike's good moments. It's the sort of stuff that, rightly or wrongly, will continue to lead to him being portrayed, as one noted person on this board put it, a hun.

Yeah, I remember the "Poor Brian" discussion.  The comments defending Landy? Disgusting! The whole interview is a prime example of why Mike is so disliked. I just googled "why people dislike Mike Love". Holy smokes!

Saturday I hung with a musician friend who's girlfriend was Mike's housekeeper at one time. OMG, the stories. Not a pretty picture.

Hey Jude - Who is around who could comment on what happened? Carl is gone.  

Let's not forget we have "Landy ! and Landy !! - I saw Brian in 1987 for a cameo and in 1990.  After waiting 20 years as a BB fan. Landy was in the wings.

Elizabeth Banks has spoken about certain "selective benefits" that Landy worked with Brian on - specifically his weight.  Brian has said a "few positive things" happened.  Are you calling both Elizabeth Banks and Brian liars? And, Brian is forgiving.  Banks is a good observer.  It is why she is an Oscar contender.  She internalized a lot of information and was able to be very credible, showing the stages of Melinda's relationship and quickly growing skepticism of Landy.

Now, in 1987, The BB's had been established for about 25+ years.  Do you actually believe that a cousin (for 40+ years) who was onstage would not have first hand knowledge of some outward appearances at that point, and how Brian was able to "mesh'' onstage.  Or, get back into the swing of things during sound-checks, and traveling.  Now, if you were onstage with Brian, or had seen him then maybe you have an informed opinion.  But to make an utterly uninformed comment is ridiculous in my opinion.  Were you onstage with them?  Were you in the band?  Are you a family member?  

If someone asks me a question and my physical reaction might be say...instead of rolling my eyes...I might make the comment that something was "interesting." And, I might leave it at that.  Or Mike might have looked at Landy's kid as just another pawn of his father.  Maybe he takes pity on him being saddled with an old man who was not what he thought.  And, just said something like "interesting."  It takes on that "probably" concept on this board.  Spin.

Why on earth do you think that Mike does not have an informed opinion? Just about anything Mike says or does is negatively spun or twisted.  

L & M is such a profound movie, that some people might be more comfortable to keep their reflections to themselves.  Maybe Mike would rather not have anything to say.  And not "share" in this "Facebook" world.   Why do you feel entitled to know how another person feels?  Do you have a problem with that ?  

Do I think Landy should have gone to jail?  You bet your butt, I do.  And he could have been Manson's therapist.  They would have been great cell-mates and Landy could have managed Manson's career and been his co-songwriter (see how Manson would "therapeutically" respond to him!)  But, we don't get to judge or say.  Someone else gets that job.  

Had the band not seen some "outward" indications that there was some progress, any progress, Landy would never have been rehired and given pretty much free reign by a court of law.  Landy was an great actor, but harbored a devious, and malicious, scheming personality.  Who knew?  The judge?  No, apparently Landy had fooled a judge.  So, whatever Melinda was able to glean from Landy, knowing something was "rotten in Denmark, she had a judicial order to overturn.  That she saved his live is indisputable.

Certainly the band, was likely unaware of much of what was going on.  When there is a court order, you back off and let the person in charge (by the court) run the show.  Otherwise you could be in contempt of the court order for such interference. This was a highly delicate situation.  Do you actually think that anyone was stupid enough to question a court ordered guardian?  Or the kid who was helping his old man?  It is "interesting" all right.  And that kid will take to his grave that he feels his old man actually helped Brian.  Because the "child is the extension of the parent."

And, yes, is a comment such as "Poor Brian, he had a tough time"...appropriate? It sounds like a compassionate statement. - Or, make a comment such as "interesting" about Landy's kid, who acting as a designee of the court ordered guardian, maybe had more control than any of the band.  What does "interesting" mean - it has many meanings.   Among them is one that is very "noncommittal."  That is Mike's right.  But apparently he should have no opinions and no rights.  

And for all I care, you can say I'm on "Mike's payroll." Give me a good laugh.   :lol  

  

Is anybody claiming Landy did anything else good for Brian other than saving his life? At the time it probably took a kidnapper like Landy to save Brian from himself, because people who sincerely loved Brian probably wouldn't have been tough enough. And it took people who sincerely loved Brian to save Brian from Landy. That happened, as we all know, years too late.

Guess there really isn't any irony in the fact that an upcoming episode of this show focuses on Brian & Landy: 

Dr. Feelgood

We trust doctors with our lives. They heal us when we’re ill and guide us on a path toward healthy living. In Hollywood being famous doesn’t make you immune to sickness so what happens when the person celebrities entrust with their well-being uses that power to seek fame, make big bucks or execute something far more sinister? REELZ original series Dr. Feelgood examines the terrible true stories of physicians whose practice led to controversy, mystery and tragedy for their notable clients. Each one-hour episode delves into one celebrity’s search for happiness through physical enhancement, weight loss or performance booster and the prolonged debate that followed. Can doctors in the immediate orbit of celebrities remain objective and clear-headed in their diagnoses and treatments? And where does the responsibility lie: with the client who wanted and took the drugs—or the expert who prescribed them?

The trailer for this that I saw showed Elvis, Michael Jackson, and Brian!

http://www.reelz.com/dr-feelgood/

Ed - I hope they do a decent job (although I'm certain you and I will both cringe, among a few others, even if the job is decent).  I imagine the series will get a boost from L&M - at least Brian's episode.

If television does a piece on Dr. Landy,  I hope they speak with the folks who saw Brian from 1985 onward, as the last several years were focused on maintaining a tie to Brian rather than anything truly therapeutic. That period appears to me to have begun shortly after Brian  and his numerous"helpers" got back from the first trip to Hawaii. It is not  surprising that this happened. Landy had his hands deep into other celebrities' wallets and lives. I wish Landy had sought outside medical advice from somewhere like UCLA Medical School. Landy's ego stopped him from doing so.

This bit from the bedfordandbowery interview made me chuckle...

"Was he [Dr. Landy] overreaching? Probably. Did he cost a lot of money? Hell yeah."

Good old Mike (who I have absolutely nothing against), Landy was "probably" overreaching, but when it comes to money it's "hell yeah".

The episode on Brian will air Saturday the 12th at 10pm

Unsure if this was the right thread, but feel it adds backstory.
http://www.examiner.com/article/examiner-exclusive-mark-linett-discusses-brian-wilson-s-1988-solo-album

Thanks for the link.

I had someone record a :30 second version of the “JAWS” theme, and I took a cassette deck with an endless loop cassette, and set that up, so that anytime we got a call from the front office saying, “Dr. Landy’s on the phone,” I could just push a button and you’d hear, “Dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun.” In addition, somewhere along the way we made a backwards tape – that if you played it forward – said something along the lines of, “Landy is the devil.” I think we were (sort of) thinking about hiding it in “Rio Grande” somewhere, but we never did.  :lol