Specifics on Brian's extraction from Landy

[Andrew G. Doe]

The indisputably Landy penned original lyrics are, without exception, utterly dire.

Going back, someone asked what the "Landy" mix of Brian Wilson sounded like. Hopefully Ray will pitch in here with the true gen, but I was told back in the day that it was, oddly, not dissimilar to how Murry mixed his solo album. 

[Please delete my account]

In the interest of " historical accuracy ". On the BW 88 album, my original copy, Love and Mercy is credited to Brian Wilson and Eugene E Landy. I asked Brian last week for a very specific reason , what exactly did Landy write on Love and Mercy. Answer: " I wrote every note and every word. He wrote nothing , just put his name on it. ".  I'm going to ask him more next week when I see him about Landy's contributions to specific songs.

Signing off

Thanks very much for this.

[Emdeeh]

Yes -- thank you for checking on that, Ray.

[Rentatris]

May I just say. This whole debate is really interesting, I've enjoyed reading it (a bit like a soap opera at times, wait, I hate soap operas)

 I guess I would say that a lot of shitty people make music, if we judged everyone by moral standards as far as credits go then some albums wouldn't have been written by anyone. I agree that Landy's estate shouldn't make any money off royalties etc. but I do feel historically IF Landy contributed (a big IF in some cases) then his name should be there, for better or worse. As for people unaware of the stories thinking he was a great writer then that doesn't overally wash with me these days. With current technology anyone interested enough in a song or to form an opinion on someone would turn to Google and Wikipedia to find out more, it wouldn't take long for the penny to drop....

[Emily]

May I just say. This whole debate is really interesting, I've enjoyed reading it (a bit like a soap opera at times, wait, I hate soap operas)

 I guess I would say that a lot of shitty people make music, if we judged everyone by moral standards as far as credits go then some albums wouldn't have been written by anyone. I agree that Landy's estate shouldn't make any money off royalties etc. but I do feel historically IF Landy contributed (a big IF in some cases) then his name should be there, for better or worse. As for people unaware of the stories thinking he was a great writer then that doesn't overally wash with me these days. With current technology anyone interested enough in a song or to form an opinion on someone would turn to Google and Wikipedia to find out more, it wouldn't take long for the penny to drop....

For me, being a shitty person is not a reason to lose credit; using illegal coercion to gain the credit in the first place is a reason to lose credit.

[Rentatris]

May I just say. This whole debate is really interesting, I've enjoyed reading it (a bit like a soap opera at times, wait, I hate soap operas)

 I guess I would say that a lot of shitty people make music, if we judged everyone by moral standards as far as credits go then some albums wouldn't have been written by anyone. I agree that Landy's estate shouldn't make any money off royalties etc. but I do feel historically IF Landy contributed (a big IF in some cases) then his name should be there, for better or worse. As for people unaware of the stories thinking he was a great writer then that doesn't overally wash with me these days. With current technology anyone interested enough in a song or to form an opinion on someone would turn to Google and Wikipedia to find out more, it wouldn't take long for the penny to drop....

For me, being a shitty person is not a reason to lose credit; using illegal coercion to gain the credit in the first place is a reason to lose credit.

 I agree that in some cases that is the situation but we must also concede that Landy/Morgan did write *some* of the lyrics and/or music that Brian produced in those years. Where they wrote there should be credit; where the name was just 'tagged on' for royalties etc. then there should not.

[HeyJude]

May I just say. This whole debate is really interesting, I've enjoyed reading it (a bit like a soap opera at times, wait, I hate soap operas)

 I guess I would say that a lot of shitty people make music, if we judged everyone by moral standards as far as credits go then some albums wouldn't have been written by anyone. I agree that Landy's estate shouldn't make any money off royalties etc. but I do feel historically IF Landy contributed (a big IF in some cases) then his name should be there, for better or worse. As for people unaware of the stories thinking he was a great writer then that doesn't overally wash with me these days. With current technology anyone interested enough in a song or to form an opinion on someone would turn to Google and Wikipedia to find out more, it wouldn't take long for the penny to drop....

For me, being a shitty person is not a reason to lose credit; using illegal coercion to gain the credit in the first place is a reason to lose credit.

Exactly. There are tons of bands/songwriting partnerships where some aspect of the relationship has gone sour where one or the other of the writers probably would love to take the other person's name off of it. It doesn't happen.

And again, even if Landy hadn't engaged in massive heinous criminal activity, it appears he *willingly* agreed to remove his name from these songs as part of a settlement. If someone willingly agrees to have their name removed (for whatever reason, which *could* include the person in question believing their name doesn't belong there), there's really nothing left to argue.

Further, multiple research sources (not to mention thousands of copies of the album floating around) document how the songs had Landy's name, which was then removed. History has recorded that Landy's name was on the songs, and that it was removed legally and by agreement of all parties. History also records how Landy came about being in the position in the first place.

[HeyJude]

I agree that in some cases that is the situation but we must also concede that Landy/Morgan did write *some* of the lyrics and/or music that Brian produced in those years. Where they wrote there should be credit; where the name was just 'tagged on' for royalties etc. then there should not.

Is there any indication that Landy or Morgan wrote any substantial amount of the music (not words) to any songs?

Also, what if Landy and Morgan actually *didn't* write anything on some or most of the songs they received credit for? I have to be honest, I'm a bit surprised that Ray mentioned that Brian says Landy had *zero* to do with "Love and Mercy." It never sounded like one with especially clunky potential Landy lyrics ("I'm master of my fate, when I accelerate", etc.), but if there's a precedent for Landy sticking his name on something where he didn't write *anything* (which is surprising considering he didn't stick his name on every Brian composition during those years), then that casts extra doubt on the validity of his credit even when we dismiss the unethical and illegal practices that put him in the position in the first place.

There are also legal concepts that could negate Landy's credits as well. If Landy knowingly drugged and incapacitated Brian to the point where Brian was led to believe Landy helped when he didn't, or to the point where Brian couldn't remember, etc., then they could have actually taken the issue to trial to try to remove his name. It wouldn't have been the most far-fetched case.

[Rentatris]

When reading 'The Wilson Project', Usher talks about Landys tinkering and the lyric sheets that Brian would come in with, Usher says that he could tell Landys work a mile off from Brians. So I think it's fair to say that Landy *tried* to write with Brian. With the control he had at this time I find it hard to believe that he allowed *none* of his ideas or lyrics to be recorded and released. So, I'm pretty sure he's responsible for some of Brian's output at that time. **

 Legally, you're right and I hadn't really thought of that. I think the truth is that the only person who know how much Landy contributed is Landy himself (and maybe Brian at times....if he can remember) and so that is lost forever. As you say, Landy agreed to have his name removed (possibly under duress though) so maybe it is right that that's how it stays

** I may be wrong on this, it's a while since I read it but I think it goes along those lines

[HeyJude]

Also worth mentioning is that, given what Landy did to Brian, if they actually had to pay Landy and Morgan anything to get their names off those songs, it’s frankly a little extra kick in the nuts to Brian and his family that Landy made a little extra money later in the 90s off that. Granted, it may well have been Brian and his lawyers that initiated that process. But in the big picture, it’s just another extra heinous aspect of Landy’s legacy.

I can only hope maybe Brian’s lawyers were able to low-ball them by letting them know they could litigate the issue to get their names off of those songs based on all of that criminal, fraudulent activity.

[Debbie KL]

Also worth mentioning is that, given what Landy did to Brian, if they actually had to pay Landy and Morgan anything to get their names off those songs, it’s frankly a little extra kick in the nuts to Brian and his family that Landy made a little extra money later in the 90s off that. Granted, it may well have been Brian and his lawyers that initiated that process. But in the big picture, it’s just another extra heinous aspect of Landy’s legacy.

I can only hope maybe Brian’s lawyers were able to low-ball them by letting them know they could litigate the issue to get their names off of those songs based on all of that criminal, fraudulent activity.

Or maybe all they had to do is say they'd drop filing criminal charges against Landy if he took his name off of some bogus claims for credit?  No one knows what happened - here anyway, obviously - but I don't think Landy/Morgan were in a great negotiating position at that point. The Attorney General of CA was obviously not impressed with him. 

Anyone who has ever had a conversation with Brian may well find something from that conversation in one of his songs.  Not everyone is inclined to monetize every word of an interaction with a successful artist.  Some people value friendship over greed.  What do you think the odds are that Landy was one of those so inclined to claim credit for anything and everything? Does that mean he deserves credit in some of your minds?

Again, I keep wondering why this is such an issue.  No one here knows what happened.  Why the wringing of hands over this?  Brian's bio is coming out soon, so let's consider all this after he has his say.

[Custom Machine]

This thread has me concerned that Morgan and Landy's writer's credits have most likely been removed from Smart Girls. When looking at the writer's credits I'd hate to see that piece of garbage blamed 100% on Brian.

[Mike's Beard]

This thread has me concerned that Morgan and Landy's writer's credits have most likely been removed from Smart Girls. When looking at the writer's credits I'd hate to see that piece of garbage blamed 100% on Brian.

I'd already brought that up - oddly enough the room suddenly went quiet.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

It's NEVER going to be released, so it's a moot point.

[SMiLE Brian]

Exactly Billy! Funny how Mike's rap opus was not only released but a single and on baywatch. Way to waste a BW appearance Mike.

[Rentatris]

This thread has me concerned that Morgan and Landy's writer's credits have most likely been removed from Smart Girls. When looking at the writer's credits I'd hate to see that piece of garbage blamed 100% on Brian.

 


 I know you're semi-joking but am I right in thinking the song has never actually been released?

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Exactly Billy! Funny how Mike's rap opus was not only released but a single and on baywatch. Way to waste a BW appearance Mike.

True confession...

I actually don't mind Summer of Love. It's dumb, true, but kind of a guilty pleasure.

*runs*

[SMiLE Brian]

  Have your band cover it!

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Actually....hmmm....

[SMiLE Brian]

*runs*

[CenturyDeprived]

It's NEVER going to be released, so it's a moot point.

Hate to say it, but Smart Girls sorta was almost released on that promo tape sent out to a number of people... it's almost (though not quite) as "released" as Holland's "We Got Love" was for 40+ years. It slipped out and was actually on a product that actually physically duplicated copies were made of in a factory. That's about as close to an actual release as you could get without it actually being a proper release. Certainly more "released" than Lazy Lizzie or something like that.

I wish there was a CONTROL + Z command for that having happened though!

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Yeesh.

[SurfRiderHawaii]

This thread has me concerned that Morgan and Landy's writer's credits have most likely been removed from Smart Girls. When looking at the writer's credits I'd hate to see that piece of garbage blamed 100% on Brian.

I'd already brought that up - oddly enough the room suddenly went quiet.

I was just rummaging through my overly vast 45 collection and came across Brian's Sire Records "Melt Away" and "Love and Mercy" singles.

"EXECUTIVE PRODUCER: DR.EUGENE E. LANDY"  all in bold caps credited on both sides of the 45 label. "Melt Away" songwriting credits: Brian Wislon/ Eugene E. Landy. On the flip side, "Being with the One You Love" writer credits:  Brian, Eugene E. Landy and Alexandra Morgan.

On my "Love and Mercy" 45 rpm picture sleeve the label again credits: "EXECUTIVE PRODUCER: DR.EUGENE E. LANDY"  all in bold caps credited on both sides of the 45. (though he is not credited as EP on the picture sleeve for the L&M song, just the B side "He Couldn't Get His Poor Body to Move". Landy credited with Brian as co-writer of both songs.

[Andrew G. Doe]

I have to be honest, I'm a bit surprised that Ray mentioned that Brian says Landy had *zero* to do with "Love and Mercy." It never sounded like one with especially clunky potential Landy lyrics ("I'm master of my fate, when I accelerate", etc.), but if there's a precedent for Landy sticking his name on something where he didn't write *anything* (which is surprising considering he didn't stick his name on every Brian composition during those years), then that casts extra doubt on the validity of his credit even when we dismiss the unethical and illegal practices that put him in the position in the first place.

According to a couple of folk I corresponded with at the time, Landy did write two lines/one verse of "L&M", but the Sire suits demanded that this -

"I was prayin' to a God who just doesn't seem to hear
Oh the blessings that we want most are what we all fear"

- be edited out before they'd release it as a single. And it was, and by God they were ab-so-lute-ly right. Clunk, clunk, clunk.

And Brian's still right - Landy had nothing to do with the released version.

[Lonely Summer]

I have to be honest, I'm a bit surprised that Ray mentioned that Brian says Landy had *zero* to do with "Love and Mercy." It never sounded like one with especially clunky potential Landy lyrics ("I'm master of my fate, when I accelerate", etc.), but if there's a precedent for Landy sticking his name on something where he didn't write *anything* (which is surprising considering he didn't stick his name on every Brian composition during those years), then that casts extra doubt on the validity of his credit even when we dismiss the unethical and illegal practices that put him in the position in the first place.

According to a couple of folk I corresponded with at the time, Landy did write two lines/one verse of "L&M", but the Sire suits demanded that this -

"I was prayin' to a God who just doesn't seem to hear
Oh the blessings that we want most are what we all fear"

- be edited out before they'd release it as a single. And it was, and by God they were ab-so-lute-ly right. Clunk, clunk, clunk.

And Brian's still right - Landy had nothing to do with the released version.

But Brian did sing that verse on at least one tv appearance. Personally, I like that verse. It's not any worse than "I was sitting at a crummy movie...."