20/20 through Holland

[Chocolate Shake Man]

how can you say that "nobody else sounded like" The Beach Boys before 1968?

^
I said, nobody else sounded like the Beach Boys before 1968.

Huh???

[SMiLE-addict]

I don't think there's any song that sounds like This Whole World. What is bluesy about that song beyond the first few seconds. Irregardless, it stands apart from all that early 70s rock stuff. It packs so much punch into less than two minutes, and changes key more times than I can count (hyperbole, but still)! I suggest you do a little background reading of this stuff, and that may help you gain a better appreciation for this period of their music. There is more than what's on the surface.

Disagree. The key changes might be a bit different, but otherwise it could pass for something by, say, Three Dog Night.

I think you mentioned Friends as one of the albums you don't get. Go out on a summer's day when you have half an hour of free time and take a walk in suburbia. You'll get it.

Words, to me, are secondary.

[Sheriff John Stone]

You make some fair points, SMiLE-addict. I think you're going get more support or agreement from the average music fan (<99% of the listeners) than the Beach Boys' diehards on this board (>1% of the listeners). If you look at the more successful singles during that period - "Darlin", "Do It Again", "I Can Hear Music", and "Sail On Sailor" - what do they have in common? They were the most Beach Boyish songs on the albums. A lot of the other stuff could be considered, as you put it, generic soft/medium rock. And, that's probably why The Beach Boys didn't have the big, hit albums of 5-6 years earlier. The general public didn't care for the "I Went To Sleep"s of the world.

You gotta admit, though, there were a few excellent tracks sprinkled in there, the type of quality song that could only come from inside The Beach boys. Unfortunately, there weren't enough of them. I mean, if you/me/we are honest, the competition during that period was fierce. You wanna compare The Beach Boys albums in that time frame with The Doors first (or second or third or fourth) album, or Abbey Road/solo Beatles, or as you mentioned the Jefferson Airplane, and Hendrix and The Rolling Stones and the Velvet Underground/early Lou Reed and Tapestry and (Paul) Simon & Garfunkel and later Motown stuff and on and on. Did the Beach Boys' albums - not just a couple of songs, but complete albums - in the late 60's/early 70's rank up there with their contemporaries? It's a fair debate.

[SMiLE-addict]

how can you say that "nobody else sounded like" The Beach Boys before 1968?

^
I said, nobody else sounded like the Beach Boys before 1968.

Huh???

I think you had edited your post in the meantime.

Anyway, if you believe the BB's kept their unique sound after 1968 or thereabouts, I'll just have to disagree.

[SMiLE-addict]

You gotta admit, though, there were a few excellent tracks sprinkled in there, the type of quality song that could only come from inside The Beach boys. Unfortunately, there weren't enough of them. I mean, if you/me/we are honest, the competition during that period was fierce. You wanna compare The Beach Boys albums in that time frame with The Doors first (or second or third or fourth) album, or Abbey Road/solo Beatles, or as you mentioned the Jefferson Airplane, and Hendrix and The Rolling Stones and the Velvet Underground/early Lou Reed and Tapestry and (Paul) Simon & Garfunkel and later Motown stuff and on and on. Did the Beach Boys' albums - not just a couple of songs, but complete albums - in the late 60's/early 70's rank up there with their contemporaries? It's a fair debate.

Yeah, don't get me wrong, there were still some good songs during that period. But IMO the best song on, say, Sunflower, was about as good as an average song on Pet Sounds or Summer Days or Smile.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

how can you say that "nobody else sounded like" The Beach Boys before 1968?

^
I said, nobody else sounded like the Beach Boys before 1968.

Huh???

I think you had edited your post in the meantime.

Anyway, if you believe the BB's kept their unique sound after 1968 or thereabouts, I'll just have to disagree.

No, the only reason I edited my post was because everything looked like a quote. The wording stayed exactly the same.

I'm not suggesting that "the BB's kept their unique sound after 1968". I'm suggesting that what you call their unique sound was never unique (as you would have it) in the first place.

[SMiLE-addict]

No, the only reason I edited my post was because everything looked like a quote. The wording stayed exactly the same.

Sorry. Must have mis-read it, then.

I'm not suggesting that "the BB's kept their unique sound after 1968". I'm suggesting that what you call their unique sound was never unique (as you would have it) in the first place.

I disagree. Who else, besides a few surf-n-sun bands who were imitating them, sounded like them?

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Why do you think I brought up Phil Spector the first time?

[SMiLE-addict]

The general public didn't care for the "I Went To Sleep"s of the world.

BTW, "I Went To Sleep" is one of my favorite songs of that entire period. It's one of the reasons why I think 20/20 was the best album of that era (and thus is sort-of an exception to my gripe in this thread). It's pretty much a filler song, but it's quite a sublime and interesting piece for a filler song!

[SMiLE-addict]

I figured you brought up Phil Spector because other bands were doing Phil Spector-esque stuff as well, but I already responded to that.

[...]

They might have done Phil Spector-esque production techniques during that time, but that doesn't mean they sounded like the other bands who were doing the same. A variety of bands were doing that sort of thing.

The Mama's and the Papas, for example, might have tried to get some of that Phil Spector sound along with the Beach Boys, but that doesn't mean the Beach Boys sounded like the Mamas and the Papas.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

IMHO, they did keep their unique sound. If anything, some of their songs -released AND unreleased- were even more unique. NOBODY came out with anything that sounded like Til I Die, Cool Cool Water, My Solution, Steamboat, A Day in the life of a Tree, Feel Flows, the entire California Saga, Funky Pretty, ect. There were elements that other groups had, but none married those elements with the Beach Boys' harmonies, because NOBODY could harmonize like the Beach Boys.

For me, Smiley Smile through MIU was my favorite group of albums by anyone, anywhere. Yes, I'm stretching it to go that far. I happen to love those albums, each and every one, including MIU. This was how I got into the band. I listened to each and every one of these albums all the way through long before I heard anything pre-Pet Sounds all the way through, as when i was getting into the band I did not want to hear anything that ever played on the oldies station.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I figured you brought up Phil Spector because other bands were doing Phil Spector-esque stuff as well, but I already responded to that.

[...]

They might have done Phil Spector-esque production techniques during that time, but that doesn't mean they sounded like the other bands who were doing the same. A variety of bands were doing that sort of thing.

The Mama's and the Papas, for example, might have tried to get some of that Phil Spector sound along with the Beach Boys, but that doesn't mean the Beach Boys sounded like the Mamas and the Papas.

They didn't just use his techniques. Many of the songs directly emulate the style of Spector's songs. You can here the All Summer Long/Don't Worry Baby style deriving from The Ronettes and Crystals songs from that time. Pet Sounds comes from the Righteous Brothers. Heroes and Villains is directly copying River Deep, Mountain High.

[Sheriff John Stone]

The general public didn't care for the "I Went To Sleep"s of the world.

BTW, "I Went To Sleep" is one of my favorite songs of that entire period. It's one of the reasons why I think 20/20 was the best album of that era (and thus is sort-of an exception to my gripe in this thread). It's pretty much a filler song, but it's quite a sublime and interesting piece for a filler song!

C'mon, man. I'm trying to support your case!

No, really, I think you raised a real good topic, one that could bring some good discussion if cool heads prevail. I know that there are a lot of people on this board who prefer 1967-1973 to 1962-1966. But like I posted above, there's gotta be a reason why Friends didn't sell, 20/20 went to around #70, Sunflower bombed, as did Carl & The Passions. I guess marketing did play a part, as did the groups image, but....Hey, it's worth discussing. And, the board's slow anyway. I was praising "Santa's Goin' To Kokomo" earlier tonight for chrissakes.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

For myself: The Beach Boys could almost begin and end with Holland and I'd probably love them just about the same

It's my favorite album ever by anyone....

[SMiLE-addict]

They didn't just use his techniques. Many of the songs directly emulate the style of Spector's songs. You can here the All Summer Long/Don't Worry Baby style deriving from The Ronettes and Crystals songs from that time. Pet Sounds comes from the Righteous Brothers. Heroes and Villains is directly copying River Deep, Mountain High.

Well, I'm just going to have to disagree. Just because both the BB's and the Ronettes used Phil Spector techniques, does not mean the two bands sounded the same.

And the Beach Boys do NOT sound like Tina Turner! 

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Well, I'm just going to have to disagree. Just because both the BB's and the Ronettes used Phil Spector techniques, does not mean the two bands sounded the same.

Again, this has nothing to do with techniques. The songs sound the same, not just because Brian used some of Spector's techniques (he did) but because he designed the songs to sound like Spector's (which he's admitted).

And the Beach Boys do NOT sound like Tina Turner! 

Nor do they sound like Three Dog Night nor Bread. But Heroes and Villains sounds just like River Deep Mountain High.

[SMiLE-addict]

Again, this has nothing to do with techniques. The songs sound the same, not just because Brian used some of Spector's techniques (he did) but because he designed the songs to sound like Spector's (which he's admitted).

My original point which brought this up was:

The great thing about the pre-1968-ish BB was that pretty much nobody else sounded like them, aside from a handful of other bands who were imitating them (such as Jan and Dean).

I agree this isn't about production techniques, so I'm not sure why it was brought up. But just because some songs here and there were copied from other bands, doesn't mean the Beach Boys sounded like those other bands, in general. I mean, "Girl Don't Tell Me" was copied from "Ticket to Ride," but that doesn't mean the BB's sounded like the Beatles. All bands copy stuff from each other, but that doesn't mean all bands sound the same.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Again, this has nothing to do with techniques. The songs sound the same, not just because Brian used some of Spector's techniques (he did) but because he designed the songs to sound like Spector's (which he's admitted).

My original point which brought this up was:

The great thing about the pre-1968-ish BB was that pretty much nobody else sounded like them, aside from a handful of other bands who were imitating them (such as Jan and Dean).

I agree this isn't about production techniques, so I'm not sure why it was brought up. But just because some songs here and there were copied from other bands, doesn't mean the Beach Boys sounded like those other bands, in general. I mean, "Girl Don't Tell Me" was copied from "Ticket to Ride," but that doesn't mean the BB's sounded like the Beatles. All bands copy stuff from each other, but that doesn't mean all bands sound the same.

I'm not sure why it was brought up either. Since you were the one to bring it up, you are the only one that can shed light on that.

So your point is that The Beach Boys and Bread were interchangeable in 1971? I mean, a much more persuasive argument can be given that The Beach Boys far more consistently sounded like Phil Spector's songs than The Beach Boys sounded like Bread's songs or that The Beach Boys sounded like Three Dog Night's songs. I mean, I'd go so far as to say that All Summer Long through to Smile could be seen as all Phil Spector tribute albums, if we were to use your particular evaluative techniques.

[SMiLE-addict]

I'm not sure why it was brought up either. Since you were the one to bring it up, you are the only one that can shed light on that.

I didn't bring up the Phil Spector/production techniques thing, somebody else did.

So your point is that The Beach Boys and Bread were interchangeable in 1971? I mean, a much more persuasive argument can be given that The Beach Boys far more consistently sounded like Phil Spector's songs than The Beach Boys sounded like Bread's songs or that The Beach Boys sounded like Three Dog Night's songs.

I simply disagree. The Beach Boys and Bread were more interchangeable in 1971 than the Beach Boys and [insert non-BB Phil Spector song] were in 1965. Especially since Phil Spector wasn't a band! Since we both agree this isn't about production techniques, I'm not sure of the point of bringing someone into this debate who was only a producer.

[SMiLE-addict]

Actually, now that I look back on pg. 1, it was *you* who first brought up Phil Spector!

Have you heard much Phil Spector?

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I'm not sure why it was brought up either. Since you were the one to bring it up, you are the only one that can shed light on that.

I didn't bring up the Phil Spector/production techniques thing, somebody else did.

This was the first mention of them on this thread:

They might have done Phil Spector-esque production techniques during that time, but that doesn't mean they sounded like the other bands who were doing the same

I simply disagree. The Beach Boys and Bread were more interchangeable in 1971 than the Beach Boys and [insert non-BB Phil Spector song] were in 1965. Especially since Phil Spector wasn't a band! Since we both agree this isn't about production techniques, I'm not sure of the point of bringing someone into this debate who was only a producer.

In that case, I have to assume that you really haven't heard much Phil Spector music. Furthermore, why should it matter whether or not Phil Spector "was a band"? Your point was that "nobody else sounded like the Beach Boys before 1968." Are you now so hell bent on being right that you are going to qualify your claim every time I bring up proof that counters it? Do you expect me to believe now that you think The Beach Boys lose more credibility when sounding like a band than sounding like several bands under the guidance of one particular producer? This is insane.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Actually, now that I look back on pg. 1, it was *you* who first brought up Phil Spector!

Have you heard much Phil Spector?

OK, I think you're trolling now. Good bye.

[Sheriff John Stone]

So your point is that The Beach Boys and Bread were interchangeable in 1971?

In some ways, yes.

This is just my opinion. I think that audiences "use" certain groups; they use them for a particular sound or type of music. In the early/mid 1960's, people wanted to hear the surf & turf music that The Beach Boys offered, and The Beach Boys did it better than anybody. Then they (audiences) move on. Maybe the audience wants guitar rock, and they migrate toward Hendrix, or space rock and go to Pink Floyd, or folk rock with The Byrds/Dylan, etc. You get my point.

Well, once times changed and the Beach Boys moved on to other styles, call it soft rock/pop or whatever, they weren't in demand anymore. People didn't need or want the Beach Boys for that particular type of music. There were other groups out there doing it (arguably) as well if not better. All of a sudden, the Beach Boys - and Brian Wilson - weren't leaders of the pack. They were now in the pack, with the likes of Bread.

I believe that's why Endless Summer was such a success. In 1974, surf music certainly wasn't a popular genre of music. But, for some reason, people again wanted to use The Beach Boys for that particular sound (energetic surf & turf), not for "Time To Get Alone", as beautiful as that song is. I think the Beach Boys quickly realized that, too, which is why they asked Brian to come back.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

So your point is that The Beach Boys and Bread were interchangeable in 1971?

In some ways, yes.

This is just my opinion. I think that audiences "use" certain groups; they use them for a particular sound or type of music. In the early/mid 1960's, people wanted to hear the surf & turf music that The Beach Boys offered, and The Beach Boys did it better than anybody. Then they (audiences) move on. maybe the audience wants guitar rock, and they migrate toward Hendrix, or space rock and go to Pink Floyd, or folk rock with The Byrds/Dylan, etc. You get my point.

Well, once times changed and the Beach Boys moved on to other styles, call it soft rock/pop or whatever, they weren't in demand anymore. People didn't need or want the Beach Boys for that particular type of music. There were other groups out there doing it (arguably) as well if not better. All of a sudden, the Beach Boys and Brian Wilson - weren't leaders of the pack. They were now in the pack, with the likes of Bread.

I believe that's why Endless Summer was such a success. In 1974, surf music certainly wasn't a popular genre of music. But, for some reason, people again wanted to use The Beach Boys for that particular sound (energetic surf & turf), not for "Time To Get Alone", as beautiful as that song is. I think the Beach Boys quickly realized that, too, which is why they asked Brian to come back.

That's fair enough, but that's not how I meant it.

[Sheriff John Stone]

So your point is that The Beach Boys and Bread were interchangeable in 1971?

In some ways, yes.

This is just my opinion. I think that audiences "use" certain groups; they use them for a particular sound or type of music. In the early/mid 1960's, people wanted to hear the surf & turf music that The Beach Boys offered, and The Beach Boys did it better than anybody. Then they (audiences) move on. maybe the audience wants guitar rock, and they migrate toward Hendrix, or space rock and go to Pink Floyd, or folk rock with The Byrds/Dylan, etc. You get my point.

Well, once times changed and the Beach Boys moved on to other styles, call it soft rock/pop or whatever, they weren't in demand anymore. People didn't need or want the Beach Boys for that particular type of music. There were other groups out there doing it (arguably) as well if not better. All of a sudden, the Beach Boys and Brian Wilson - weren't leaders of the pack. They were now in the pack, with the likes of Bread.

I believe that's why Endless Summer was such a success. In 1974, surf music certainly wasn't a popular genre of music. But, for some reason, people again wanted to use The Beach Boys for that particular sound (energetic surf & turf), not for "Time To Get Alone", as beautiful as that song is. I think the Beach Boys quickly realized that, too, which is why they asked Brian to come back.

That's fair enough, but that's not how I meant it.

As I wrote, that's my take. I am interested in yours. What you did mean with the Bread comparison, or non-comparison?