Speculating about 'Run James, Run'

[rab2591]

So after listening to 'Pet Sounds' (the song) yesterday, I was wondering: had 'Run James, Run' been accepted to play on James Bond, would Brian Wilson have kept it on the album or would he have put another song in its place? and if so on the latter, what song would he have chosen (finishing up Trombone Dixie, perhaps?)?

[Chris Brown]

Interesting question...just speculation, of course, but I don't think Brian would have kept it on the album in that case.  I can't imagine he would want people talking about James Bond every time they talked about the album.  Finishing "Trombone Dixie" would have been the most logical thing to do, or he could have just kept the album at 12 tracks with just the one instrumental.

[rab2591]

straying far from the initial post:

I remember hearing on the "40th anniversary podcast of 'Pet Sounds'", one of the band members was talking about how had 'Good Vibrations' been on 'Pet Sounds', Brian would have a FAR greater mythological status than he does today.

Not that this would ever happen, but since I heard that I'd always wondered how differently Pet Sounds would have been accepted had 'GV' been on it. It doesn't sound like it would fit the album at all, but it doesn't really fit SMiLE too well either (in my very humble opinion).
______

Anywho, back on topic....It's a tough thing to speculate: it would seem logical to leave it at 12 tracks, but he had obviously put a lot of thought into 'Trombone Dixie' (enough for a fabulous final instrumental cut).....so both options seem logical.

I'd love to hear what 'Trombone Dixie' would've sounded like had he finished it back in '66.

[drbeachboy]

I agree with you that GV would not have fit well on Pet Sounds, but I don't see how you think that "... it doesn't really fit SMiLE too well either"? The GV theme is all over the second movement.

[rab2591]

I agree with you that GV would not have fit well on Pet Sounds, but I don't see how you think that "... it doesn't really fit SMiLE too well either"? The GV theme is all over the second movement.

I agree that instrumentally the theme of GV is in the second movement, but lyrically, they are on totally separate planets. The second movement seems FAR too spiritual to me to be involved in Good Vibrations....besides GV isn't even included in the second movement....but tagged on to the end of BWPS.

The second movement is about our connectedness as humans (from sex ('wonderful') to 'Child is the Father', to our place in this world as humans ('Surf's Up')) but there is no real emphasis on teenage love (as is sung about in GV)....it just seems out of place to me.

[runnersdialzero]

The second movement is about our connectedness as humans (from sex ('wonderful') to 'Child is the Father', to our place in this world as humans ('Surf's Up')) but there is no real emphasis on teenage love (as is sung about in GV)....it just seems out of place to me.

lolwut

[drbeachboy]

Lyrically, Smile is all over the place. I was talking musically. Had Smile been released in 1966, I think it would have been odd to have the GV theme running in movement 2 (which I think would have stayed intact just like the 2004 version), and not have the song itself included, even as an ending like on the 2004 rendition. I can hear people saying, "Oh, I hear Good Vibrations in this section and that section, yet the song isn't on the album. Wow, that's strange!" Considering it's completion some 38 years later, and Brian still including it, I have to assume that GV was to be originally included. Or did someone twist Brian's arm to include it on the 2004 version? As that seems to be a running theme with each solo album that he releases. ;-)

Also, Sloop John B doesn't fit the lyrical theme of Pet Sounds, yet Brian contends that it was always meant to be included.

[rab2591]

Lyrically, Smile is all over the place. I was talking musically. Had Smile been released in 1966, I think it would have been odd to have the GV theme running in movement 2 (which I think would have stayed intact just like the 2004 version), and not have the song itself included, even as an ending like on the 2004 rendition. I can hear people saying, "Oh, I hear Good Vibrations in this section and that section, yet the song isn't on the album. Wow, that's strange!" Considering it's completion some 38 years later, and Brian still including it, I have to assume that GV was to be originally included. Or did someone twist Brian's arm to include it on the 2004 version? As that seems to be a running theme with each solo album that he releases. ;-)

I totally see what you're saying, and I can't see a version of SMiLE without Good Vibrations, but it still seems out of place to me. SMiLE has an Americana theme, a Cycle of Life theme, and an Elements theme....Good Vibrations fits none of these - no matter how similar the instrumentals are. That is my only point. I do agree that GV was always intended for SMiLE, but to me it seems a little out of place.

[buddhahat]

I agree with you that GV would not have fit well on Pet Sounds, but I don't see how you think that "... it doesn't really fit SMiLE too well either"? The GV theme is all over the second movement.

Have to agree, I think GV, musically, fits with the rest of Smile perfectly. Lyrically it's not too much of a stretch if you think of Wonderful as being a song about a girl, and cabinessence (according to Dennis) as a boy girl song, then GV fits fine. Personally I have GV at the start of my smile mix, right after Our Prayer. I think it works well as the lead track and can imagine it have being sequenced this way - a sort of commercial trojan horse that eases people into the more far out material to follow!

Also I can imagine GV working well enough within the boy girl songs of Pet Sounds. Just like WIBN it works as the ideal fantasy of romantic love, right at the start before things turn sour. If it had been included it could've only improved upon Pet Sounds' status of one of the greatest pop albums imo.

[rab2591]

I agree with you that GV would not have fit well on Pet Sounds, but I don't see how you think that "... it doesn't really fit SMiLE too well either"? The GV theme is all over the second movement.

Have to agree, I think GV, musically, fits with the rest of Smile perfectly. Lyrically it's not too much of a stretch if you think of Wonderful as being a song about a girl, and cabinessence (according to Dennis) as a boy girl song, then GV fits fine. Personally I have GV at the start of my smile mix, right after Our Prayer. I think it works well as the lead track and can imagine it have being sequenced this way - a sort of commercial trojan horse that eases people into the more far out material to follow!

Also I can imagine GV working well enough within the boy girl songs of Pet Sounds. Just like WIBN it works as the ideal fantasy of romantic love, right at the start before things turn sour. If it had been included it could've only improved upon Pet Sounds' status of one of the greatest pop albums imo.

I think Wonderful is about a girl but I find it far too 'spiritual' to fit in well with GV. Like you said, GV works as an ideal fantasy of romantic love, whereas Wonderful is, barebones, about a girl, love, and God. Cabinessence has almost the exact same vibe (pardon the pun) instrumentally as GV.....and lyrically it most likely is a love song, so it does fit I suppose.

Actually, I'd love to hear what 'Look' would have sounded like finished - I think Brian or VDPs said (in Priore's book) that 'Look' was meant to be more of a commercial pop song but was never finished.....had 'look' been completed I'd venture to guess that GV would've fit into the mix perfectly.

I too have 'Our Prayer' and 'Good Vibrations' at the beginning of my mix - followed by 'Blue Hawaii' then into 'Heroes and Villains' - I agree, GV is a perfect lead in. I suppose it's the way I've always heard it (with Good Vibrations tagged at the end of every album/boot I've heard of SMiLE) that's got me irked about it.

[buddhahat]

I agree with you that GV would not have fit well on Pet Sounds, but I don't see how you think that "... it doesn't really fit SMiLE too well either"? The GV theme is all over the second movement.

Have to agree, I think GV, musically, fits with the rest of Smile perfectly. Lyrically it's not too much of a stretch if you think of Wonderful as being a song about a girl, and cabinessence (according to Dennis) as a boy girl song, then GV fits fine. Personally I have GV at the start of my smile mix, right after Our Prayer. I think it works well as the lead track and can imagine it have being sequenced this way - a sort of commercial trojan horse that eases people into the more far out material to follow!

Also I can imagine GV working well enough within the boy girl songs of Pet Sounds. Just like WIBN it works as the ideal fantasy of romantic love, right at the start before things turn sour. If it had been included it could've only improved upon Pet Sounds' status of one of the greatest pop albums imo.

Actually, I'd love to hear what 'Look' would have sounded like finished - I think Brian or VDPs said (in Priore's book) that 'Look' was meant to be more of a commercial pop song but was never finished.....had 'look' been completed I'd venture to guess that GV would've fit into the mix perfectly.

The clarinet melody in the BWPS version of Look, is vintage by all accounts and certainly sounds it. It gives us a glimpse of what a great song Look could've been. Reminds me in melody a bit of the verse from 'Happy Together' by the Turtles.

[Bill Ed]

I think Good Vibrations is best enjoyed in splendid isolation. It's not a part of anything else.  Didn't Brian Wilson characterize it as a  "pocket symphony"? And I think I recall that he didn't want it on the album.

[drbeachboy]

Then how do you explain it's theme being used in Smile? Why did Brian use it to close the 2004 version if it was never intended to be included in the first place? There were no surprises for me regarding song selection when first performed in London. I was fascinated by song placement, though.

[the captain]

Then how do you explain it's theme being used in Smile?

While I agree that it probably was going to be on Smile in '67, the fact that its themes appear isn't necessarily evidence of that. After all, TLOS and Rio Grande use Dennis' themes. Brian has reused his own themes again and again, too (See: Shortenin' Bread)

[rab2591]

I agree with you that GV would not have fit well on Pet Sounds, but I don't see how you think that "... it doesn't really fit SMiLE too well either"? The GV theme is all over the second movement.

Have to agree, I think GV, musically, fits with the rest of Smile perfectly. Lyrically it's not too much of a stretch if you think of Wonderful as being a song about a girl, and cabinessence (according to Dennis) as a boy girl song, then GV fits fine. Personally I have GV at the start of my smile mix, right after Our Prayer. I think it works well as the lead track and can imagine it have being sequenced this way - a sort of commercial trojan horse that eases people into the more far out material to follow!

Also I can imagine GV working well enough within the boy girl songs of Pet Sounds. Just like WIBN it works as the ideal fantasy of romantic love, right at the start before things turn sour. If it had been included it could've only improved upon Pet Sounds' status of one of the greatest pop albums imo.

Actually, I'd love to hear what 'Look' would have sounded like finished - I think Brian or VDPs said (in Priore's book) that 'Look' was meant to be more of a commercial pop song but was never finished.....had 'look' been completed I'd venture to guess that GV would've fit into the mix perfectly.

The clarinet melody in the BWPS version of Look, is vintage by all accounts and certainly sounds it. It gives us a glimpse of what a great song Look could've been. Reminds me in melody a bit of the verse from 'Happy Together' by the Turtles.

Wow, I've never noticed the similarity between those two songs...but the similarity is definitely there. There's so much potential for that melody of Look (vocally) but the BWPS version seemed rather bland to me..

[drbeachboy]

In these times, yes I agree that it might not be the case, but in 1967, I think that is a lot of evidence. Brian reused themes yes, but a new album with a theme from their most recent #1 hit? I'm completely convinced that GV was part of Smile.

[rab2591]

In these times, yes I agree that it might not be the case, but in 1967, I think that is a lot of evidence. Brian reused themes yes, but a new album with a theme from their most recent #1 hit? I'm completely convinced that GV was part of Smile.

Of course GV was always meant to be on SMiLE, my only point is that it doesn't really fit.

When Brian first started work on GV I don't think he fully knew what the 'final' 'concept' would be....ie, nothing like the romanticism of Pet Sounds (which is fully found in GV). Dumb Angel was meant to be a teenage symphony to God, and look what it turned into: a trip full of spirituality and elements across early America....not a lot to do with teenage love.

Then again, as I said before, had all the songs been finished to Brian's full liking, GV would most likely have fit perfectly.

[Bill Ed]

Then how do you explain it's theme being used in Smile? Why did Brian use it to close the 2004 version if it was never intended to be included in the first place? There were no surprises for me regarding song selection when first performed in London. I was fascinated by song placement, though.

I believe that Brian started recording Good Vibrations during the recording of Pet Sounds. So the "first place" would be during this period. Do you think that at this early stage he had a vision of what Smile would be? I think that he wanted to follow up the best album ever with the best single ever.  Heroes and Villains was to have been the centerpiece of Smile.  At any rate, I really doubt that the intention was to close Smile with Good Vibrations. It just doesn't work.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Then how do you explain it's theme being used in Smile? Why did Brian use it to close the 2004 version if it was never intended to be included in the first place? There were no surprises for me regarding song selection when first performed in London. I was fascinated by song placement, though.

I believe that Brian started recording Good Vibrations during the recording of Pet Sounds. So the "first place" would be during this period. Do you think that at this early stage he had a vision of what Smile would be? I think that he wanted to follow up the best album ever with the best single ever.  Heroes and Villains was to have been the centerpiece of Smile. Maybe when it failed to duplicate the success of Good Vibrations it was decided that the latter must be included on the album. At any rate, I really doubt that the intention was to close Smile with Good Vibrations. It just doesn't work.

The inclusion of "GV" on Smile (and Smiley Smile) was Capitol's idea. Hit single, an' all that.

[XY]

"Good Vibrations" was for SMiLE what "The Little Girl I Once Knew" was for PET SOUNDS.
And I think TLGIOK would be on Pet Sounds if "Run James Run" wasn't.
But I don't think it was ever seriously intended for a James Bond movie.
Wouldn't be surprised if Jan & Dean's BATMAN inspired Brian to write his James Bond tribute.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Wouldn't be surprised if Jan & Dean's BATMAN inspired Brian to write his James Bond tribute.

Highly unlikely. The J&D album was recorded late 1965/early 1966, session for "Run James, Run" was 11/17/65.

[buddhahat]

Then how do you explain it's theme being used in Smile? Why did Brian use it to close the 2004 version if it was never intended to be included in the first place? There were no surprises for me regarding song selection when first performed in London. I was fascinated by song placement, though.

I believe that Brian started recording Good Vibrations during the recording of Pet Sounds. So the "first place" would be during this period. Do you think that at this early stage he had a vision of what Smile would be? I think that he wanted to follow up the best album ever with the best single ever.  Heroes and Villains was to have been the centerpiece of Smile. Maybe when it failed to duplicate the success of Good Vibrations it was decided that the latter must be included on the album. At any rate, I really doubt that the intention was to close Smile with Good Vibrations. It just doesn't work.

The inclusion of "GV" on Smile (and Smiley Smile) was Capitol's idea. Hit single, an' all that.

AGD, was there a specific date when Capitol requested GV's inclusion on Smile or would it have been from the outset of the project? Also is there any evidence that Brian was unenthusiastic about its inclusion? Thanks.

[drbeachboy]

If GV was written and recorded before Smile and the GV theme runs through parts of Smile, then to me that equals intent for inclusion on Smile whether Capitol insisted on it or not. Now with Smiley Smile, Im sure Capitol insisted that GV be included on that album.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Then how do you explain it's theme being used in Smile? Why did Brian use it to close the 2004 version if it was never intended to be included in the first place? There were no surprises for me regarding song selection when first performed in London. I was fascinated by song placement, though.

I believe that Brian started recording Good Vibrations during the recording of Pet Sounds. So the "first place" would be during this period. Do you think that at this early stage he had a vision of what Smile would be? I think that he wanted to follow up the best album ever with the best single ever.  Heroes and Villains was to have been the centerpiece of Smile. Maybe when it failed to duplicate the success of Good Vibrations it was decided that the latter must be included on the album. At any rate, I really doubt that the intention was to close Smile with Good Vibrations. It just doesn't work.

The inclusion of "GV" on Smile (and Smiley Smile) was Capitol's idea. Hit single, an' all that.

AGD, was there a specific date when Capitol requested GV's inclusion on Smile or would it have been from the outset of the project? Also is there any evidence that Brian was unenthusiastic about its inclusion? Thanks.

The original cover art didn't have the "Good Vibrations Good Vibrations Good Vibrations" strap across it, but the famous handwritten (but not by Brian) track listing does, so probably November 1966, when it had been a huge hit worldwide.

[Andrew G. Doe]

If GV was written and recorded before Smile and the GV theme runs through parts of Smile, then to me that equals intent for inclusion on Smile whether Capitol insisted on it or not. Now with Smiley Smile, Im sure Capitol insisted that GV be included on that album.

"Heroes And Villains" lifts a riff from "River Deep, Mountain High", but to me that doesn't equal intent for the inclusion of "RD, MH" in Smile.