History of Mike's reputation

[Jon Stebbins]

[/quote]

Comparisons arise because the "Mike Love is evil" assertion was the other side of the "it's Brian and four morons" coin.
[/quote]I think those two points of view generally exist on the SAME side of the coin, the other side of the coin would be Brian is a mess and can't do anything without his hand being held (preferably by Mike).

[Nicko]

Brian Wilson is a one of a kind talent but Mike at his best was no hack.

Sure, sure, but could Mike ever come up with the melody and chords of a hit song? Don't say "Kokomo", he had very little to do with the writing of that song musically. Can he arrange 5 part harmonies? Yeah, he's not talentless, but I still think people try to give him too much credit in reaction to all of the Brian favoritism that ruled the roost for years.

What's your point?

I've yet to read anywhere on these boards that Mike was just as talented as Brian or that he had the same production and vocal arranging skills. Nobody believes that and Mike himself has talked about Brian's genius for hearing all of the vocal parts in his head. Mike is primarily a lyricist so of course you wouldn't expect him to be writing hit songs on his own. How many hit songs does any lyricist write on their own? But just because Mike's talent didn't compare with Brian's, doesn't mean that he shouldn't have been given more credit (the fact that he wasn't given any credit for the likes of California Girls shows that he clearly should have been).

Now to have co-written so many great songs was a great achievement and Mike deserves some respect for it. Some people seem to think that if you praise Mike that you are somehow belittling Brian which isn't the case at all. It's not a competition and, to me, it beggars belief that people persist in the Dennis was more talented than Carl, Carl was more talented than Mike arguments.

Brian was a genius and to say that Mike wrote a lot of good hooks and good lyrics and helped the band to have hits in the early years doesn't challenge that.

[MBE]

Brian Wilson is a one of a kind talent but Mike at his best was no hack.

Sure, sure, but could Mike ever come up with the melody and chords of a hit song? Don't say "Kokomo", he had very little to do with the writing of that song musically. Can he arrange 5 part harmonies? Yeah, he's not talentless, but I still think people try to give him too much credit in reaction to all of the Brian favoritism that ruled the roost for years.

I simply think he could write a fine lyric and that vocally he was an asset in the harmonies. I'm no fan of "Kokomo", but "Big Sur" you bet.

[Dancing Bear]

Only two Beach Boys ever wrote a hit song: Brian and Bruce.

[Nicko]

Only two Beach Boys ever wrote a hit song: Brian and Bruce.

So Brian has only written 2 or 3 hits in his entire career??? Bizarre logic.

[Cam Mott]

Brian Wilson is a one of a kind talent but Mike at his best was no hack.

Sure, sure, but could Mike ever come up with the melody and chords of a hit song? Don't say "Kokomo", he had very little to do with the writing of that song musically. Can he arrange 5 part harmonies? Yeah, he's not talentless, but I still think people try to give him too much credit in reaction to all of the Brian favoritism that ruled the roost for years.

Maybe I've missed these posts but I generally see people trying to give Mike only the credit he deserves, I would say recognizing the credit he [and the other non-Brian Boys] deserves is still at the too little status but that is just me. I also agree with those that feel fully crediting one does not discredit another.

[Dancing Bear]

Only two Beach Boys ever wrote a hit song: Brian and Bruce.

So Brian has only written 2 or 3 hits in his entire career??? Bizarre logic.

I see. Rephrasing... Only Brian and Bruce, in the Beach Boys, have written most of the music for any hit songs.

[TdHabib]

Only two Beach Boys ever wrote a hit song: Brian and Bruce.

So Brian has only written 2 or 3 hits in his entire career??? Bizarre logic.

I see. Rephrasing... Only Brian and Bruce, in the Beach Boys, have written most of the music for any hit songs.

We're pretty sure that The Wood (and I do not mean Ronnie) co-wrote "You Are So Beautiful" which got to #5.

[grillo]

Only two Beach Boys ever wrote a hit song: Brian and Bruce.

So Brian has only written 2 or 3 hits in his entire career??? Bizarre logic.

I see. Rephrasing... Only Brian and Bruce, in the Beach Boys, have written most of the music for any hit songs.

We're pretty sure that The Wood (and I do not mean Ronnie) co-wrote "You Are So Beautiful" which got to #5.

Didn't Al write the incredibly lame but still a hit (in Britain) Lady Linda?

[Dancing Bear]

Only two Beach Boys ever wrote a hit song: Brian and Bruce.

So Brian has only written 2 or 3 hits in his entire career??? Bizarre logic.

I see. Rephrasing... Only Brian and Bruce, in the Beach Boys, have written most of the music for any hit songs.

We're pretty sure that The Wood (and I do not mean Ronnie) co-wrote "You Are So Beautiful" which got to #5.

We don't know the extent of his co-write, do we? Maybe he wrote the bulk of it, maybe only a section as extensive as Mike's 'round round get around' hook for I Get Around. Sure, I'd love to know what he contrinuted to YASB.

[Autotune]

I think the internet forums had a lot to do with the improvement of Mike's reputation over the last decade or so. The internet has allowed discussion among fans and nearly direct contact with BB scholars. I remember the level of hostility -in 1996 - 97-- towards anyone who praised a contribution by ML, or believed Love’s songwriting claims.

In the 80s, with Carl still alive and fully active, and Brian joining the stage occasionally, Mike was blamed for destroying the "legacy" of Brian's music with the live shows.

In the 2000s, the novelty o Brian’s live shows and the Love-Jardine feud still fresh, there were countless harsh comments on Mike’s live BBs. Those comments are not majority now. They were pretty loud for a while.

How many times have you read “he could have gathered four singers and teach them the parts… he didn’t need the BBs”? Those voices are quieter now.

Another important character in the ML bashing campaign was Van Dyke Parks, whose bitterness towards the Lovester was for a while accepted as gospel.

Let us not forget the Capitol 2-fers liner notes, the "autobiography", still bought as true by many. Oh, and the extremely aggressive tone of Beach Boys Australia around the time of the songwriting lawsuit.

Some of the brianista faction has toned down into a “clinical / analytical” mode. I.e. Mike wanted a #1 because he was greedy or afraid of losing his job, whereas Brian wanted a #1 to please his father. You can’t lose with that one. Except that you get into a mental-analysis, intention-guessing thing that you really cannot know for sure. 

[TdHabib]

Only two Beach Boys ever wrote a hit song: Brian and Bruce.

So Brian has only written 2 or 3 hits in his entire career??? Bizarre logic.

I see. Rephrasing... Only Brian and Bruce, in the Beach Boys, have written most of the music for any hit songs.

We're pretty sure that The Wood (and I do not mean Ronnie) co-wrote "You Are So Beautiful" which got to #5.

Didn't Al write the incredibly lame but still a hit (in Britain) Lady Linda?

With help from Bach.

[mtaber]

Bach is a fool for not taking Al to litigation...

[tpesky]

I believe Al listed him though in the credits.

[Surfer Joe]

So we're back to square one: the history of Mike's reputation or image is simply the history of misinformation, disinformation, lies, and a vast conspiracy against him.  But recently, the newly revealed facts have repudiated all negative responses to Mike's (falsely portrayed) words and actions, and a new age of enlightenment has come upon the land. 

Mike himself has nothing to do with any of this; it all happens completely outside of him. When I was reading that Goldmine "Bad Vibrations" interview back in '93 or so, purportedly with Mike himself, and thinking Mike was being sort of an ass, it was actually just David Leaf and Van Dyke Parks in my head like a couple of mindworms, getting me all confused.  Or maybe it was mind gangsters. 

We've all been the victims of some cunning and devious opinion-makers.  Until now, of course, when we've all been set straight. Mike is actually outtasite.

Yeah, I know- that's me doing what I complained about earlier in this same thread- oversimplifying other peoples' views.

All kidding aside, I like Mike and always have, and have always said so.  I admire and respect his contributions.  But I also think who Mike is perceived to be is pretty much who he is, and I'll go out on a limb to say that he'd probably agree.  He's a blunt, outspoken guy with his own priorities, who- given many chances-  has never really tried to spin things any other way. Others try to do that for him.  If you ask his fans why he had problems with this or that aspect of SMiLE, some of them will say "That's a lie!" Ask Mike and he'll say "Here's why..."  And I respect that.

I think Beach Boys fans are well-informed and yet- maddeningly to some- they still arrive at their own informed opinions and responses, and see things differently.  I don't think Mike's rep, for better or worse, ever really came from David Leaf or Derek Taylor or the evil "Brianistas" or anywhere else nearly as much as it came from Mike, and his own words and actions.

When Brian pops off and says his new band is better than the Beach Boys people get mad at him, and rightfully so.  When Mike pops off about something or says he didn't even give a listen to BWPS, people get mad about that. When he gives a good interview people like him more.  What's so hard to get?

[Chris Brown]

Very well said Joe.

[Dancing Bear]

No, Surfer Joe. It's like saying that we only have Leaf to blame for Mike's reputation.

[Nicko]

So we're back to square one: the history of Mike's reputation or image is simply the history of misinformation, disinformation, lies, and a vast conspiracy against him.  But recently, the newly revealed facts have repudiated all negative responses to Mike's (falsely portrayed) words and actions, and a new age of enlightenment has come upon the land. 

Mike himself has nothing to do with any of this; it all happens completely outside of him. When I was reading that Goldmine "Bad Vibrations" interview back in '93 or so, purportedly with Mike himself, and thinking Mike was being sort of an ass, it was actually just David Leaf and Van Dyke Parks in my head like a couple of mindworms, getting me all confused.  Or maybe it was mind gangsters. 

We've all been the victims of some cunning and devious opinion-makers.  Until now, of course, when we've all been set straight. Mike is actually outtasite.

Yeah, I know- that's me doing what I complained about earlier in this same thread- oversimplifying other peoples' views.

All kidding aside, I like Mike and always have, and have always said so.  I admire and respect his contributions.  But I also think who Mike is perceived to be is pretty much who he is, and I'll go out on a limb to say that he'd probably agree.  He's a blunt, outspoken guy with his own priorities, who- given many chances-  has never really tried to spin things any other way. Others try to do that for him.  If you ask his fans why he had problems with this or that aspect of SMiLE, some of them will say "That's a lie!" Ask Mike and he'll say "Here's why..."  And I respect that.

I think Beach Boys fans are well-informed and yet- maddeningly to some- they still arrive at their own informed opinions and responses, and see things differently.  I don't think Mike's rep, for better or worse, ever really came from David Leaf or Derek Taylor or the evil "Brianistas" or anywhere else nearly as much as it came from Mike, and his own words and actions.

When Brian pops off and says his new band is better than the Beach Boys people get mad at him, and rightfully so.  When Mike pops off about something or says he didn't even give a listen to BWPS, people get mad about that. When he gives a good interview people like him more.  What's so hard to get?

I think you've been reading a different thread to me. I've yet to read anyone say that Mike didn't have a problem with Smile. I've yet to read anyone say he hasn't made mistakes either.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Only two Beach Boys ever wrote a hit song: Brian and Bruce.

Are you out of your mind?

Good Vibrations (B.Wilson M.Love)
Fun Fun Fun (B.Wilson M.Love)
Kokomo (T.Melcher S.Mckenzie j.Phillips.M.Love)
California Girls (B.Wilson M. Love)
Do It Again (B.Wilson M.Love)

to name but a few....

See: we can go round and round with the "Mike/Brian/Mike: asashole?No, Mike OK discussion and we can all be reasonable and fair and make some headway, then someone comes along with a "statement" like this and we're back to square one!

Wonderful!

[adamghost]

I've been pretty critical of Mike, but I think it's perfectly possible to (a) be heavily critical of somebody while not being unfair and (b) to not be a partisan in so doing.

From my perspective, I think there's been a lot of demagoguery in how Mike chooses to spin his contribution to the group which has really undermined his own goal, which is to take credit for what he rightfully DID do.  One of the biggest problems is that Mike, from what I can tell, did play a fairly large role in adjusting Brian's music so that it would resonate with their audience.  He also had the right attitude and image for what they were doing at the time.  The problem is, his sense of the marketplace, and his ability to relate to it, got less and less after around 1965.  So adding the Mike Love touch to a Brian song in, say, 1963, may have been just what was needed at the time, but in 1978, it was perceived by many as embarassing, and a lot of Mike Love's later lyrics are very close to self-parody.  I mean, some of them are just plain bad.  And bad is not good...but Mike Love still thinks of his lyrical role and talent as being the same as it was back in the sixties, and it ain't.  His instincts as a lyricist are often horrible...he thinks he's being commercial, but he just sounds contrived.  It doesn't work on either an artistic or a marketplace level.

The other thing is the assumption, as Jon points out, that Brian needs Mike to make great (or commercial) music.  The record doesn't show that.  The record shows that Brian needs SOMEBODY to make great, commercial music, but he's written amazing songs not just with Mike, but with Van Dyke Parks, Gary Usher, Roger Christian, Carl, Tony Asher, etc.  True, he's had the most commercial success with Mike Love's cowrites, but at the same time, if you made a list of Brian songs with howlingly bad lyrics, you'd have a high proportion of Mike Love lyrics in there too.  There's also the evidence given by some of Brian's cowriters that Mike has taken outsized credit for some of the songwriting contributions he claimed in his successful 1993 lawsuit ("California Girls" notwithstanding).

Basically, Mike was the main of the hour for the band's early, and most successful period.  As a frontman and as a sometime lyricist, as well as a consummate bass singer, he was outstanding.  You cannot take that away from him.  He's also the most recognizable voice of the band.  He deserves full credit for all these things.  A lot of peoples' problems with Mike comes from the sense that Mike still wants to be acknowledged as someone with the same level of talent, achievement and sense of the marketplace as he had in the early '60s, and the record simply doesn't show that.  Yes, he cowrote "Kokomo" with four other people, but even with that leg up the Mike-led band couldn't muster any follow up hits.

I guess what I'm sayin' is you don't have to be a "Brianista" to have perfectly valid criticisms of Mike Love....the gentleman has brought some of the problems on himself with his own public spin and with his recorded songwriting output over the years.  And in the end, the guy don't care!  He's doing what he loves, playing music, performing and making bank at nearly 70.  And I've been impressed by the changes in the set list and in the band in recent years, FWIW.  Credit where credit is due, blame = same.  (And yeah, the other guys in the band have had their share of bad lyrics, too...the difference being none of them claim to be talented in that area, as Mike does.  For my money, the best lyricist in the Beach Boys was Al Jardine).

[Nicko]

I've been pretty critical of Mike, but I think it's perfectly possible to (a) be heavily critical of somebody while not being unfair and (b) to not be a partisan in so doing.

From my perspective, I think there's been a lot of demagoguery in how Mike chooses to spin his contribution to the group which has really undermined his own goal, which is to take credit for what he rightfully DID do.  One of the biggest problems is that Mike, from what I can tell, did play a fairly large role in adjusting Brian's music so that it would resonate with their audience.  He also had the right attitude and image for what they were doing at the time.  The problem is, his sense of the marketplace, and his ability to relate to it, got less and less after around 1965.  So adding the Mike Love touch to a Brian song in, say, 1963, may have been just what was needed at the time, but in 1978, it was perceived by many as embarassing, and a lot of Mike Love's later lyrics are very close to self-parody.  I mean, some of them are just plain bad.  And bad is not good...but Mike Love still thinks of his lyrical role and talent as being the same as it was back in the sixties, and it ain't.  His instincts as a lyricist are often horrible...he thinks he's being commercial, but he just sounds contrived.  It doesn't work on either an artistic or a marketplace level.

The other thing is the assumption, as Jon points out, that Brian needs Mike to make great (or commercial) music.  The record doesn't show that.  The record shows that Brian needs SOMEBODY to make great, commercial music, but he's written amazing songs not just with Mike, but with Van Dyke Parks, Gary Usher, Roger Christian, Carl, Tony Asher, etc.  True, he's had the most commercial success with Mike Love's cowrites, but at the same time, if you made a list of Brian songs with howlingly bad lyrics, you'd have a high proportion of Mike Love lyrics in there too.  There's also the evidence given by some of Brian's cowriters that Mike has taken outsized credit for some of the songwriting contributions he claimed in his successful 1993 lawsuit ("California Girls" notwithstanding).

Basically, Mike was the main of the hour for the band's early, and most successful period.  As a frontman and as a sometime lyricist, as well as a consummate bass singer, he was outstanding.  You cannot take that away from him.  He's also the most recognizable voice of the band.  He deserves full credit for all these things.  A lot of peoples' problems with Mike comes from the sense that Mike still wants to be acknowledged as someone with the same level of talent, achievement and sense of the marketplace as he had in the early '60s, and the record simply doesn't show that.  Yes, he cowrote "Kokomo" with four other people, but even with that leg up the Mike-led band couldn't muster any follow up hits.

I guess what I'm sayin' is you don't have to be a "Brianista" to have perfectly valid criticisms of Mike Love....the gentleman has brought some of the problems on himself with his own public spin and with his recorded songwriting output over the years.  And in the end, the guy don't care!  He's doing what he loves, playing music, performing and making bank at nearly 70.  And I've been impressed by the changes in the set list and in the band in recent years, FWIW.  Credit where credit is due, blame = same.  (And yeah, the other guys in the band have had their share of bad lyrics, too...the difference being none of them claim to be talented in that area, as Mike does.  For my money, the best lyricist in the Beach Boys was Al Jardine).

I agree with an awful lot of that. Mike obviously was a great collaborator for Brian in the early years and continued to write consistently good lyrics up until 1973 I would say (with some exceptions obviously). After that he certainly did try to rewrite the fun in the sun stuff far too much. That's understandable as the biggest original hits that the band (and Celebration) had through the wilderness period were all in the retro style, but it's still disappointing as the quality dipped so often. Also I would say that the stuff Mike wrote for his outside projects was generally much better than the songs he was contributing to BBs albums so he obviously still had some ability. The only thing I would question is how much Mike's belief in his own abilities attracts criticism. For most fans it doesn't seem to be that big a thing.

As for Al being the best lyricist in the band, I like a lot of songs with Al writing credits but I can't think of any with particularly good lyrics. Certainly nothing as strong as those for Warmth of the Sun or as smart as those for Fun, Fun, Fun. And the lyrics to California Calling...the less said the better.

[carl r]

To add my tuppence I will simply say that as people I am not really sure that I like the Beach Boys. Any of 'em. What I hear about them is often contradictory, but on a bad day, they can all be made to appear like a real bunch of spoilt brats. Does that make me Murry? However, this is part of the parcel of loving their music, part of the package, this discrepancy between all-too-normal people and music which often sounds ripped from the cosmos.

In terms of Mike, he carries the can for some laughably idiotic behavior, but so should all of them, even if they were off their heads. So yes, I think he has been unfairly treated, as the Beach Boys were a band that unfairly treated others and themselves.  I'd also add that Mike is possibly the one most likely to string a coherent sentence together, so him doing the talking was probably a given.  His later monologues became a pain... but then why didn't someone give him a kick up the arse? In the band of the bland (and for me, after 82, the BB were just another boring show-band) the one-eyed man is king. Long live the King of Love.

[adamghost]

"As for Al being the best lyricist in the band, I like a lot of songs with Al writing credits but I can't think of any with particularly good lyrics. Certainly nothing as strong as those for Warmth of the Sun or as smart as those for Fun, Fun, Fun. And the lyrics to California Calling...the less said the better."

Fair statement, but I'm thinking in terms of the instinct of what makes a good, interesting lyric, even if you come up short on the execution.  Mike could turn a clever phrase but he relied on the same tricks over and over again and traded heavily on cliches and moon/June types of rhymes.  If you look at songs where we know Al contributed lyrics and reason outwards, he's the one guy in the band that will reach for a different kind of imagery or a sense of a poetry, even if he's writing about something dorky.  The touches of California history or little bits of specific detail that you get in lyrics that he's involved with that widen the lyrical picture -- e.g. "The California gray whale once was there/does anybody care?" vs. "The other night/they were playing our song/hadn't heard it in oh so long".  Neither one of those lines is Keats, but there's more imagination to Al's line.  Maybe it's hard for me to quite put it into words but it's like someone said about Bernie Taupin vs. Gary Osborne (Elton John's two main lyricists) where Bernie Taupin often wrote bad lyrics, but they were always bad in an interesting way.

But then, my vote for best Beach Boys lyricist ever is neither Van Dyke Parks nor Tony Asher, it's Roger Christian.  I think he was a f**king brilliant lyricist, AND he was firmly rooted in the cars/girls/California thing.  You CAN do both.  "Shut Down"?  THAT is pure poetry.

It's a good point about Mike doing better work outside the band.  I like it when Mike writes what he really cares about -- though often that's TM, which I and a lot of other people don't really care about, so that's a problem -- but I dug "Cool Head, Warm Heart."  It wasn't an earth shattering lyric, but it expressed its sentiments simply and sincerely and that counts for a lot, and I think it resonates with more people than "Fun Fun Fun Part V" or "Kokomo Part X."  But then, who knows.  Mike also has a point in terms of trying to reach the maximum number of heads in the crowd.  It's not going to produce the kind of music I want to hear, but the obvious snarky response to that is, in this instance, also totally relevant:  he's rich and famous and I'm not.

[LostArt]

Only two Beach Boys ever wrote a hit song: Brian and Bruce.

Are you out of your mind?

Good Vibrations (B.Wilson M.Love)
Fun Fun Fun (B.Wilson M.Love)
Kokomo (T.Melcher S.Mckenzie j.Phillips.M.Love)
California Girls (B.Wilson M. Love)
Do It Again (B.Wilson M.Love)

to name but a few....

See: we can go round and round with the "Mike/Brian/Mike: asashole?No, Mike OK discussion and we can all be reasonable and fair and make some headway, then someone comes along with a "statement" like this and we're back to square one!

Wonderful!

I think Mr. Bear was responding to this:
 
 

Brian Wilson is a one of a kind talent but Mike at his best was no hack.

Sure, sure, but could Mike ever come up with the melody and chords of a hit song? Don't say "Kokomo", he had very little to do with the writing of that song musically. Can he arrange 5 part harmonies?

So, I took Mr. Bear's response to mean that only Brian and Bruce have written both the music and the lyrics to hit songs (Brian with "Surfer Girl", for example, and Bruce with "I Write The Songs").


And I agree wholeheartedly with Adam...I couldn't have said it any better.   

[TdHabib]

AGD made a point awhile back that Mike isn't really a songwriter, a darn good lyricist though, and I agree: he really has the basis to write a catchy if dumb chorus very well ("round, round get around)"("Aruba, Jamaica") but never really a good full song by himself.

And great posts, Adam, as usual batting clean-up...