Relationship between Brian and Carl

[Sheriff John Stone]

Brian has performed "Heaven" live, although not as many times as "Forever."

Brian also recorded his own version of "Heaven" recently(?) which IMO is his best lead vocal since 1970.

[Rocker]

Brian has performed "Heaven" live, although not as many times as "Forever."

Brian also recorded his own version of "Heaven" recently(?) which IMO is his best lead vocal since 1970.

Sorry, but I very much disagree with that. That vocal wasn't very good (although there are worse ones for sure). TLOS features alot of good leads by Brian

[Dr. Tim]

According to Brian, his version of "Heaven" was arranged, recorded and mixed in one day, so basically everything is a one-take wonder and not a lot of auto-tuning or sweetening.   Take that for what it's worth.

[Rocker]

According to Brian, his version of "Heaven" was arranged, recorded and mixed in one day, so basically everything is a one-take wonder and not a lot of auto-tuning or sweetening.   Take that for what it's worth.

That's new to me. Thanks for the info. But I won't change my opinion very much about it. I want to make it clear though, that I'm not trying to dis this recording or the idea behind it. I always love it, when Brian puts up recordings on his website, no matter if there are faults in there or not. It would be another thing if this was an official release. Still, from a musician's point, and that's all I'm trying to say, it's not that great.

[wallabie]

Brian´s Version of Heaven was just a little christmas greeting to his fans, wasn´t it? Therefore I don´t want to complain - and I agree with Rocker, there are really good vocals on Lucky old sun. Also the vocals on "What love can do" sound really strong to me.

[Rocker]

I remember a newspaper article from the early '90s (after the Landy era but before Brian married Melinda) about how Brian and Carl had gotten together at a hotel in the L.A. area after several years of not speaking.  The memorable thing about the article was that it said that the two brothers ended up at a piano in the hotel and were singing songs from the Wild Honey album (I remember "Aren't You Glad" being mentioned specifically).  

Thanks for writing that. I never heard about it.
It's funny, because in some way, "Wild honey" to me sounds like the last "innocent" Beach Boys album. That may sound strange but I can't come up with a better description. It just feels like they all were as excited and happy as in the years before. "Friends", although a very nice album, has that adult-feel imo. But WH is like they all had a ball just being together, making music and having no problems with each other (although that might be wrong). So, although SmileySmile and WH sound very different from the stuff that came before, to me the parting line in the classic Beach Boys-group comes after WH

[Magic Transistor Radio]

I noticed in the 90s interviews, in the other Beach Boys talking about Brian, Mike, Al and Bruce seemed eager to have Brian back. I don't remember hearing much from Carl at all about that. Then to hear that Carl didn't like the Paley sessions makes me think that he felt the Beach Boys were better off without Brian or something. Strange that Carl would sing on Summer in Paradise and not be a fan of Brian's music. Although he did sing on Soul Searchin. I wonder if Carl would've been more supportive if Brian allowed Mike to write the lyrics.

Boy the more I think about BB relationships the more I get tired head. Most BB writers over simplify Love/Jardine vs Wilsons or later Love/Johnston vs Carl/Jardine. But it seems much more complex then that.

[Wirestone]

At the same time, Carl was the only BB to appear in the IJWMFTT documentary made in 94. So how can we square that?

I think Carl, honestly, was somewhat dubious of the Paley material because of Brian collaborating with someone unfamiliar with the band and who (let's be frank) contributed a LOT to the songs. It was kind of like Brian shows up at your doorstep with a lot of songs written by someone you've never heard of and expecting you to sing on them. And to have this same guy co-produce them.

On Summer In Paradise, crappy songs or not, virtually every tune was by Love and Melcher -- both of whom Carl (and the rest of the group) had known and trusted since the 60s. That counts for a lot. And let's remember that Like a Brother was co-produced by Steve Levine -- that's right, the BB85 Steve Levine. Carl seemed to like a degree of familiarity.

[Andrew G. Doe]

And let's remember that Like a Brother was co-produced by Steve Levine...

Three tracks out of ten.

[Wirestone]

Yes, I'm aware he wasn't the principal outside producer on the project (that was Phil Galdstone). But the overall point stands -- Carl liked working with familiar faces.

And it does point to Carl's priorities, I think, that he worked far harder in the 90s on this outside project (from 92 to 97, a press release from 2000 said) than on any Beach Boys recordings.

[MBE]

I remember a newspaper article from the early '90s (after the Landy era but before Brian married Melinda) about how Brian and Carl had gotten together at a hotel in the L.A. area after several years of not speaking.  The memorable thing about the article was that it said that the two brothers ended up at a piano in the hotel and were singing songs from the Wild Honey album (I remember "Aren't You Glad" being mentioned specifically).  

Thanks for writing that. I never heard about it.
It's funny, because in some way, "Wild honey" to me sounds like the last "innocent" Beach Boys album. That may sound strange but I can't come up with a better description. It just feels like they all were as excited and happy as in the years before. "Friends", although a very nice album, has that adult-feel imo. But WH is like they all had a ball just being together, making music and having no problems with each other (although that might be wrong). So, although SmileySmile and WH sound very different from the stuff that came before, to me the parting line in the classic Beach Boys-group comes after WH

There was still a lot of group feeling on Friends and Sunflower. The real big change didn't happen until after Surf's Up.

[Rocker]

I remember a newspaper article from the early '90s (after the Landy era but before Brian married Melinda) about how Brian and Carl had gotten together at a hotel in the L.A. area after several years of not speaking.  The memorable thing about the article was that it said that the two brothers ended up at a piano in the hotel and were singing songs from the Wild Honey album (I remember "Aren't You Glad" being mentioned specifically).  

Thanks for writing that. I never heard about it.
It's funny, because in some way, "Wild honey" to me sounds like the last "innocent" Beach Boys album. That may sound strange but I can't come up with a better description. It just feels like they all were as excited and happy as in the years before. "Friends", although a very nice album, has that adult-feel imo. But WH is like they all had a ball just being together, making music and having no problems with each other (although that might be wrong). So, although SmileySmile and WH sound very different from the stuff that came before, to me the parting line in the classic Beach Boys-group comes after WH

There was still a lot of group feeling on Friends and Sunflower. The real big change didn't happen until after Surf's Up.

I know what you mean, but still everything after WH feels differently to me. Maybe it's because of the other guys starting to write their own songs or whatever, but something, that I can't put into words as it seems, definitely changed after Wild Honey. It's not really "group feeling" I'm talking about, maybe just the overall feeling of how the music was made. Maybe they still had enough confidence from the succeses of '66 when they made WH, when they did Friends they were washed up. Sorry that I can't explai better what I mean. It's really just a feeling. I don't know if I could even explain it in german

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I think Carl, honestly, was somewhat dubious of the Paley material because of Brian collaborating with someone unfamiliar with the band and who (let's be frank) contributed a LOT to the songs. It was kind of like Brian shows up at your doorstep with a lot of songs written by someone you've never heard of and expecting you to sing on them. And to have this same guy co-produce them.

Except for the co-production aspect, that's not a big change from the "glory days". How familiar was the rest of the band with Roger Christian?

[Wirestone]

Well, the glory days were 30 years gone at that point. I think Carl didn't trust Brian's judgment, plain and simple. It's one thing if you're working with your brother every day, touring with him, etc., and then having him present a new collaborator. It's another when you barely see him, when he's surrounded by folks helping him function, and he's clearly mentally ill, and he presents a new collaborator.

That being said, Brian is clearly not an idiot -- he could see all of this -- and such a response from Carl clearly hurt him deeply. He wanted to be a Beach Boy in the mid-90s. Why else would he go along with Stars and Stripes? He clearly wanted, at least for awhile, to work with the band again.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Well, the glory days were 30 years gone at that point. I think Carl didn't trust Brian's judgment, plain and simple. It's one thing if you're working with your brother every day, touring with him, etc., and then having him present a new collaborator. It's another when you barely see him, when he's surrounded by folks helping him function, and he's clearly mentally ill, and he presents a new collaborator.

That being said, Brian is clearly not an idiot -- he could see all of this -- and such a response from Carl clearly hurt him deeply. He wanted to be a Beach Boy in the mid-90s. Why else would he go along with Stars and Stripes? He clearly wanted, at least for awhile, to work with the band again.

A lot of good points in your post, claymcc. First, about Carl not trusting Brian's judgment; I think not only Carl, but the other guys as well. 15 Big Ones and Love You changed everything. In 1976, The Beach Boys were handed a second chance on a silver platter. It was decided to go with Brian, and, well, we know what happened. It would never happen again. Yeah, the guys wanted to still work with Brian, but never again would he have the control that he once had.

And Brian knew it. That was the main reason he started to pursue the solo career. After Brian's "recovery" in 1983/84, Brian wanted to be "reinstated" back to his old position as producer. I read somewhere that Brian was disappointed that he wasn't chosen to produce the 1985 album, which really put the solo career wheels into spin. Not to get into a "Kokomo" discussion, but that basically sealed Brian's fate of ever being in full charge/control. That wasn't necessary anymore. Right Mike?

claymcc, you mentioned that Brian wanted to work with the guys on Stars And Stripes. Yep. I believe that. I think a part of Brian will always long for The Beach Boys. A lot of people assume that after Brian started working with Darian, Jeff, Scott, et al, that his desire to work with The Beach Boys was gone. I don't think so. Not completely anyway. While Brian has gone out of his way to praise his band (and criticize the Beach Boys), I think if the right invitation is given...

[Wirestone]

Well, it's odd, Sheriff. I think Mike and Al and Bruce were willing to give it a shot in the 90s. I think they felt like they didn't have much to lose -- they didn't have a record contract, after all. Carl was -- for all of the reasons we've discussed -- less enthusiastic.

I'm honestly not sure that 15BO and Love You were the breaking point as much as the deterioration that followed. If Brian had continued to have that level of creativity and engagement, and even grown as an artist, they might have worked something out. But that was the best he had at the time -- and the slow dawning of that realization into the late 70s and early 80s was fatal.

I think Kokomo played a role, but I think it was more a problem for Brian than Mike. Mike is, if nothing else, a realist. He could figure out that by 95 it was in his interests to work with Brian on a semi-arty record. Brian resented not being a part of the group's most successful project since the 60s. He still resents it.

As for wanting to work with the BBs -- I think Brian did during Stars and Stripes. The videos from the sessions show him having fun. But I don't know how that translates to him wanting to work with the group now. Carl -- approving or not -- is gone. The family bond is much looser.

That being said, I only just watched the video of Brian and Mike chatting in 06 on top of the Capitol tower. Chemistry remains, if only the chemistry of two goofy, 60-something cousins.

[Wirestone]

I've also come to believe, for what it's worth, that one thing in all this is absolutely true:

Brian never wanted a solo career.

Landy wanted him to have one, and the BBs kind of forced him into it. But Brian liked and wanted the approval of a group.

I think it says something that Brian's solo career, such as it is, gained much more traction when he found a consistent band. He can think of himself as a member of a group, even if it's just a group supporting him.

[SmileySam]

What about when he worked on Adult/Child? Wasn't that more or less a solo outing?

[Sheriff John Stone]

Well, it's odd, Sheriff. I think Mike and Al and Bruce were willing to give it a shot in the 90s. I think they felt like they didn't have much to lose -- they didn't have a record contract, after all. Carl was -- for all of the reasons we've discussed -- less enthusiastic.

I'm honestly not sure that 15BO and Love You were the breaking point as much as the deterioration that followed. If Brian had continued to have that level of creativity and engagement, and even grown as an artist, they might have worked something out. But that was the best he had at the time -- and the slow dawning of that realization into the late 70s and early 80s was fatal.

I think Kokomo played a role, but I think it was more a problem for Brian than Mike. Mike is, if nothing else, a realist. He could figure out that by 95 it was in his interests to work with Brian on a semi-arty record. Brian resented not being a part of the group's most successful project since the 60s. He still resents it.

As for wanting to work with the BBs -- I think Brian did during Stars and Stripes. The videos from the sessions show him having fun. But I don't know how that translates to him wanting to work with the group now. Carl -- approving or not -- is gone. The family bond is much looser.

That being said, I only just watched the video of Brian and Mike chatting in 06 on top of the Capitol tower. Chemistry remains, if only the chemistry of two goofy, 60-something cousins.

In 1990's I think the guys welcomed Brian's composing, arranging, companionship, and name/legend; I'm not sure they were prepared to give him control. Terry Melcher, Don Was and Joe Thomas were there for a reason, and the guys (especially Carl) had grown as artists since the mid-70's.

I think the Beach Boys appreciated Brian's creativity on 15 Big Ones and Love You; there was a lot of redeeming stuff, stuff of BW legend, on there. However, the Beach Boys sounded embarrassing, due to Brian's production - control(?) if you will - and they couldn't get those albums back. They could make sure it never happened again, and they did.

Yes, "Kokomo" was and still is Brian's problem; he'll never live it down. But it changed everything for Mike. He didn't NEED Brian Wilson to have a hit record; he proved it. Sure, it was a fluke, everybody but Mike knows that. But it gave Mike leverage. And you can be sure, when negotiations start again, Mike will use that leverage. I hope he doesn't go too far, I hope he doesn't blow it.

As far as working with the Beach Boys again, yes, Carl is gone, but didn't Brian have pretty good relationships with Al, Bruce, and David? I know this might be a bit of a reach, but maybe Brian would enjoy working with guys closer to his age.

[Jason]

The thing with Brian and the words "solo career" is basically this - he's recorded music purely for his own ends since the earliest days of the Capitol years. The other thing was that he never released what he recorded.

[Wilsonista]

The other Beach Boys may have grown as artists from 67 to 76, but from the late 70's onward, they have regressed.  To use an example, was Al even writing in the 90's? Was Bruce? Look at how much of Al's album is made up of remakes! Carl had the Beckley Lamm Wilson songs but it was rich for him to complain about Brian using Andy Paley (if indeed that was the case) when almost all of his released output as a writer was comprised of songs  done with outside collaborators.  

An attempt at a Sunflower or a Holland type album where everyone contributes would not have gotten the Boys a major label deal in 1995 or any time since the 60's - it had to have been Brian with Mike or whatever collaborator he chooses. I don't even think the Boys were capable of a Holland-esque album then or now (didn't Carl admit that to Sean O'Hagen?).  Therefore, like it or not, the best shot for them was Brian with Paley simply because Brian had spent the better part of that decade working on songs (whether it be writing new songs or polishing and honing his unreleased backlog or helping out on Andy's stuff). The BB spent that time touring and playing their hits.  Case in point, a 1995 issue of BEACH BOYS STOMP had in its editorial, a response to readers complaints that the magazine was writing too much about Brian's then-recent activity and not writing about what the rest of the guys were up to. Editor Mike Grant's response quick and to the point: Brian was writing and recording with Andy Paley, wroking with Don Was, cutting vocals for Van Dyke Parks' album. The BB were simply touring.  That spoke volumes.

[Wirestone]

Sheriff -- I give Mike a little more credit than that. He didn't need Brian for a hit record, but I think he knows, after Summer in Paradise, etc., that it was a one-time thing. He realized it in the 90s, too. I think he was genuinely interested in working with Brian. If Carl had been willing, it could well have happened.

The bit I'm always puzzled by is Al dropping out of Brian's tour a couple of years ago. The idea seemed great -- and they were in theory decent competition for Mike and Bruce -- but it sure didn't work out. I saw a show they did, and the vibe was definitely peculiar. Al was so happy to be there -- and Brian didn't seem so happy about it. Odd.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Well, it's odd, Sheriff. I think Mike and Al and Bruce were willing to give it a shot in the 90s. I think they felt like they didn't have much to lose -- they didn't have a record contract, after all.

Maybe not a signed & sealed document, but the V2 offer was firmly on the table and I gather it was a very good one. Remember, Bruce was on record as saying (I paraphrase) "passing on the V2 deal was the stupidest thing we've done. I was heartbroken".

[Nicko1234]

:

Brian never wanted a solo career.

Landy wanted him to have one, and the BBs kind of forced him into it. But Brian liked and wanted the approval of a group.

I think it says something that Brian's solo career, such as it is, gained much more traction when he found a consistent band. He can think of himself as a member of a group, even if it's just a group supporting him.

That`s more because the people who make the decisions for Brian now are more focused and have better intentions though isn`t it?

As far as Carl`s relationship with Brian goes, I think it`s easy to imagine the conflicting emotions Carl must have gone through over the years. Some of my friends and family have gone through a fraction of Brian`s problems but still it is easy to get frustrated with them as they are their own worst enemies. Carl must have had to balance the love he had for his brother with all that he was going through in trying to help him.

From Bruce`s comments, it obviously wasn`t just the quality of the songs that was the problem with the Paley sessions. As others have basically said, it might have been disappointing for Carl to find that some of the songs were almost solely Paley`s and that Brian wasn`t in charge of production.

Also, it`s easy to guess why Carl might have sided with Mike a lot over the years instead of Al or Brian. Mike has basically been successful as the band`s leader (commercially if not artistically) and Carl was probably happy to accept them being a popular touring act who had an occasional hit if it gave him an easy life. Obviously he knew that if he wanted to fulfil himself artistically that he would have to work elsewhere and that`s where Like a Brother came in.

[Wirestone]

The V2 thing is incredibly sad. Incredibly.

My point about the band not having a record deal was kind of rhetorical. They didn't have a record deal without Brian. (I recall that the V2 interest was for a Brian-helmed LP -- I'm sure AGD will speak up if that's not the case.) If they didn't work with him, it's not like there was anything else out there. So what did they have to lose? Really.

If they chose to work with Brian, there were the prospects of an honest-to-goodness artistic comeback. After the huzzahs greeting IJWMFTT, it really could have happened, especially with a 10-12 track album of the best Paley tunes. The boys could choose nothing, or they could choose the prospect of something. Even if that something failed, it would be more than they had otherwise.

It says something about the peculiar end-game fear and nihilism of the group that they chose nothing.