What if Al hadn't left?

[JR]

Long-time lurker, first-time poster.

My question is this: What do you think would have happened if Mike and Al had not had a falling out in the early/mid-90s?  Would Al still be touring with Mike and Bruce?  Would it just be Mike and Al, with no Bruce?  AGD or others in the know, just thought I'd get your take, since it appears finances are the main reason he's still out of  the fold now (considering he and Mike patched things up well over a year ago).

[the captain]

My guess: nothing would be different for anyone other than the sorts of people who post here. The typical fan who sees the Beach Boys doesn't much know who these guys are, and is no more likely to attend a show that has, say, David Marks or Al Jardine in the band as opposed to anyone else. They probably assume any of the oldest-looking guys are originals, recognizing only Mike, if anyone.

And as for their recorded lives, no difference. Neither has released any new material of note in that entire time.

I honestly believe that the only important aspects of it all are the guys' personal relationships. The BBs fan/atics' opinions keep the internet going, but don't matter. And the general public hasn't got any interest in the topic whatsoever. So Al having remained a Beach Boy wouldn't have kept them in chart-competition with the latest American Idol winner, runner-up, and second runner-up. It wouldn't have kept them in chart-competition with the latest nymphet. It wouldn't have kept them in chart-competition with some slicked-up country, some hardcore hip-hop or some actor-turned-musician.

Sad truth: they're just old.

Oh me of little faith.

[urbanite]

I watched a You Tube clip of a concert and Mike Love looks very old.

[Mr. Cohen]

A better question: what if Al Jardine had taken more control of the BBs in the late 60s/early 70s? Say what you want, but Al was a deceptively talented composer and Brian seemed to like his material quite a bit at the time.

It starts with the recording of Friends, during which according to the album credits Jardine played some role in the writing of five different songs. While I'm sure most of his contributions were minor, it shows that Brian was receptive to his ideas. During 20/20 Al was sadly silent, but during the Sunflower era he got more involved with the songwriting again. He helped Brian write "At My Window" (much of which is melodically based off the Kingston Trio song "Raspberries, Strawberries"), "Good Time",  and "Our Sweet Love". Brian seemed to really like "Susie Cincinnati", and his voice is all over the harmonies, more prevalent than it usually was by that time, bringing back that classic Beach Boys harmonic sound, and supposedly Brian helped Al produce "Loop De Loop". Brian also worked with Al on the BBs cover of "Cottonfields", Al's idea from the start, which Al later redid and turned into an international hit. By Surf's Up, Brian was largely absent from the recording sessions, until one day he surprisingly turned up enthusiastic to work on "Take A Load Off Your Feet", singing in his classic high-pitched voice and contributing all kinds of zany sound effects. Brian also played piano on the Mike Love/Al Jardine composition "Don't Go Near the Water", playing with a lot of personality - he wasn't just going through the motions here. Around this time Brian wrote "Santa Ana Winds" with Al Jardine, another inspired song, as well as the faux-spiritual "He Come Down". Let's not forget, Al was also the primary writer for one of the discerning Beach Boys fan's favorite songs, "All This is That", arguably the highlight of '72's Carl & the Passions - So Tough. And Al's "California", on '73's Holland, was arguably the last time Brian tried to bless a record with his golden falsetto. For that matter, Al was also instrumental in conceiving the "California Saga", a mature, progressive musical suite that Rolling Stone raved about.

So, maybe, just maybe, Al could've saved the group if he had the chance? Who knows? But the evidence speaks for itself.

Yeah, I just gave Al a lot of man love, and I'm not taking it back.

[Cam Mott]

I suppose he would still be thought of as evil Mike's evil butt-buddy as he was back in those days.

[the captain]

That might be the first instance of "butt-buddy" I've heard or read since 6th grade. And it cracked me up. Well done.

[Smilin Ed H]

Bruce as butt-buddy is better - for the alliteration, if nothing else.

[SurfRiderHawaii]

Would have sounded more like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-woezuGpLk&feature=related

The 2nd half of the video features some blistering lead guitar from David Marks ( on 'Drivin')

[Cam Mott]

That might be the first instance of "butt-buddy" I've heard or read since 6th grade. And it cracked me up. Well done.

You're welcome.

[Dove Nested Towers]

That might be the first instance of "butt-buddy" I've heard or read since 6th grade. And it cracked me up. Well done.

Junior high-school humor=belly laughs. Simple, gut-busting equation! (I've never even
heard that expression, "but" it made me laugh too.

[phirnis]

...
By Surf's Up, Brian was largely absent from the recording sessions, until one day he surprisingly turned up enthusiastic to work on "Take A Load Off Your Feet", singing in his classic high-pitched voice and contributing all kinds of zany sound effects. Brian also played piano on the Mike Love/Al Jardine composition "Don't Go Near the Water", playing with a lot of personality - he wasn't just going through the motions here.

He probably could relate to that material quite a bit. Come to think of it, "Take A Load Off Your Feet" almost sounds like a tribute to "Vega-Tables" or some of the more lightweight Smile material in general (which possibly didn't bother him as much as the heavier songs, such as "Surf's Up", but that of course is just pure speculation on my part), or think about some of Brian's then unreleased songs from that particular period, like "H.E.L.P. Is On Its Way", which does sound quite similar to "Take A Load Off Your Feet" as well.

[southbay]

A better question: what if Al Jardine had taken more control of the BBs in the late 60s/early 70s? Say what you want, but Al was a deceptively talented composer and Brian seemed to like his material quite a bit at the time.

It starts with the recording of Friends, during which according to the album credits Jardine played some role in the writing of five different songs. While I'm sure most of his contributions were minor, it shows that Brian was receptive to his ideas. During 20/20 Al was sadly silent, but during the Sunflower era he got more involved with the songwriting again. He helped Brian write "At My Window" (much of which is melodically based off the Kingston Trio song "Raspberries, Strawberries"), "Good Time",  and "Our Sweet Love". Brian seemed to really like "Susie Cincinnati", and his voice is all over the harmonies, more prevalent than it usually was by that time, bringing back that classic Beach Boys harmonic sound, and supposedly Brian helped Al produce "Loop De Loop". Brian also worked with Al on the BBs cover of "Cottonfields", Al's idea from the start, which Al later redid and turned into an international hit. By Surf's Up, Brian was largely absent from the recording sessions, until one day he surprisingly turned up enthusiastic to work on "Take A Load Off Your Feet", singing in his classic high-pitched voice and contributing all kinds of zany sound effects. Brian also played piano on the Mike Love/Al Jardine composition "Don't Go Near the Water", playing with a lot of personality - he wasn't just going through the motions here. Around this time Brian wrote "Santa Ana Winds" with Al Jardine, another inspired song, as well as the faux-spiritual "He Come Down". Let's not forget, Al was also the primary writer for one of the discerning Beach Boys fan's favorite songs, "All This is That", arguably the highlight of '72's Carl & the Passions - So Tough. And Al's "California", on '73's Holland, was arguably the last time Brian tried to bless a record with his golden falsetto. For that matter, Al was also instrumental in conceiving the "California Saga", a mature, progressive musical suite that Rolling Stone raved about.

So, maybe, just maybe, Al could've saved the group if he had the chance? Who knows? But the evidence speaks for itself.

Yeah, I just gave Al a lot of man love, and I'm not taking it back.

Interesting take.  I have often wondered what if Al and  Carl (who apparently had a good alliance in the later years) could have done so in the 70's?  Carl breaking from Dennis' camp, Al breaking from Mike. Had they been able to get either Dennis or Brian as a voting partner, Mike would have been essentially powerless, and the key decisions could have been made by the two most level headed members...

[Sheriff John Stone]

Carl breaking from Dennis' camp, Al breaking from Mike. Had they been able to get either Dennis or Brian as a voting partner, Mike would have been essentially powerless, and the key decisions could have been made by the two most level headed members...

How was Mike "holding Carl and Al hostage" (my words) with their votes? What was keeping Carl and Al, "the two most level headed members" (your words) from voting for what they believed in? If Carl and Al were the two most level headed members, and voted with Mike, well....

[southbay]

Carl breaking from Dennis' camp, Al breaking from Mike. Had they been able to get either Dennis or Brian as a voting partner, Mike would have been essentially powerless, and the key decisions could have been made by the two most level headed members...

How was Mike "holding Carl and Al hostage" (my words) with their votes? What was keeping Carl and Al, "the two most level headed members" (your words) from voting for what they believed in? If Carl and Al were the two most level headed members, and voted with Mike, well....

OK, not exactly sure where you're going here.  I don't think anybody was being "held hostage" so to speak. What was keeping Al and Carl from voting what they believed in? I think at the time they did vote what they believed in. My point was based on the long held assumption that in the 1970's there were two distinct and arguing camps within the Beach Boys.  Camp one was Mike-Al (or, the "meditators" as they were sometimes called) and camp two consisted of Dennis and Carl (or, the "free livers").  In the middle was Brian who was being tugged at by both groups as the swing vote.  MY question was simply what could have been different had Carl and Al been on the same side in that era. Instead of a fractured group and votes "down party lines", could a better future for the group have forged?  I don't know, it was simply a qustion.  And yes, I do believe that Carl and Al were indeed more level headed than Mike, Brian or Dennis.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Carl breaking from Dennis' camp, Al breaking from Mike. Had they been able to get either Dennis or Brian as a voting partner, Mike would have been essentially powerless, and the key decisions could have been made by the two most level headed members...

How was Mike "holding Carl and Al hostage" (my words) with their votes? What was keeping Carl and Al, "the two most level headed members" (your words) from voting for what they believed in? If Carl and Al were the two most level headed members, and voted with Mike, well....

OK, not exactly sure where you're going here.  I don't think anybody was being "held hostage" so to speak. What was keeping Al and Carl from voting what they believed in? I think at the time they did vote what they believed in. My point was based on the long held assumption that in the 1970's there were two distinct and arguing camps within the Beach Boys.

In your above post, you said, "...Mike would have been essentially powerless". I was just asking you to expound on what that meant; basically, what "power" did Mike have? I would like to believe that the guys voted for what they really believed in, regardless of what Mike thought. As you mentioned, it was, or is an assumption that the group consisted of two distinct camps. While that was probably true, I'd still like to see how that actually carried over to their voting on various issues. I'm not so sure they voted along party lines. Just another opinion...

[southbay]

well, I would suggest the alliances were played out in some of the directions the band took during that time. Things such as the change in 15 BO's to a more oldies lineup of tunes (much to Dennis' dismay) and Carl and Dennis' absence from MIU.  The completely fractured feel of LA Light Album. How could MIU havve been different if Al and Carl wre "on the same page"? Would the album have been better, had more participation from Carl and Dennis?  Would 15BO's really have been that great comeback had Carl and Al pushed for new material, rather than Carl and DEnnis losing out on that front to Mike's desire for covers? Finally, I think that whoever got Brian's vote in those days had "power" in the sense that they had a 3-2 voting advantage. In those instances where Mike had Brian's vote (which I believe was often during that era) he had "power"...

[Alex]

well, I would suggest the alliances were played out in some of the directions the band took during that time. Things such as the change in 15 BO's to a more oldies lineup of tunes (much to Dennis' dismay) and Carl and Dennis' absence from MIU.  The completely fractured feel of LA Light Album. How could MIU havve been different if Al and Carl wre "on the same page"? Would the album have been better, had more participation from Carl and Dennis?  Would 15BO's really have been that great comeback had Carl and Al pushed for new material, rather than Carl and DEnnis losing out on that front to Mike's desire for covers? Finally, I think that whoever got Brian's vote in those days had "power" in the sense that they had a 3-2 voting advantage. In those instances where Mike had Brian's vote (which I believe was often during that era) he had "power"...

It was actually Brian's desire to do the covers...but I'm sure Love preferred doing that to doing more "progressive" material. Mike and Al actually did gain control of Brian's vote after the showdown in '77...It's all on the timeline on Andrew G. Doe's website.

[Sheriff John Stone]

I'd still like to see the votes.

I'm sure at those meetings deciding album projects, setlists, and the overall direction of the group were attorneys and accountants. I'm also sure that those attorneys and accountants laid out the bottom line - financially that is. How much money could they make if they go this way? How much money could they make if they go that way? And without seeing the votes, especially Dennis's and Carl's, I will not assume that they voted against Mike, or against the "oldies", or against whatever money-making motivation you wanna hang on Mike. With the possible exception of Al, ALL of the guys had previous money problems (the group was broke at one time), had alimony and child support payments, were drug addicts and alcoholics, had large homes to maintain, and expensive cars, boats, and other toys. Yeah, it's nice to think they, especially the Wilson's, voted for their art. But they saw the dollars that could be made with The Beach Boys. "All This Is That" is gonna get bumped for "Catch A Wave", that was reality.

I would especially like to see Dennis's votes, his Beach Boys' votes. Dennis had his solo career on the back burner, which was another outlet for his music, his personal music. With Dennis's Beach Boys' votes, he could vote for whatever made him the most money, so he could pay alimony and child support, buy boats, expensive cars for his girlfriends/wives, and drugs and alcohol. Did Dennis really care what was played in concert; actually the "oldies" might've been easier for him. Did he want to be challenged in concert? Was he in shape to tackle the more obscure material, or new material?

Dennis might've preferred to keep The Beach Boys separate from his solo career. Make as much money as you can with The Beach Boys, but keep your artistic integrity with the solo music.

[Cam Mott]

I agree with the Sheriff that I would have to see the minutes of all of these meetings before I'd believe what is supposed to have happened.

[Foster's Freeze]

Would have sounded more like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-woezuGpLk&feature=related

The 2nd half of the video features some blistering lead guitar from David Marks ( on 'Drivin')

Thanks for this!

[SurfRiderHawaii]

Would have sounded more like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-woezuGpLk&feature=related

The 2nd half of the video features some blistering lead guitar from David Marks ( on 'Drivin')

Thanks for this!

Welcome.

Honkin is one of my BB favs. It's great that Al and David do things together.  I love David's voice too.  Maybe BRI should give them the license as they are more 'original BB' than any other present pairing.

[The infamous Baldwin Organ]

Even though it was only a short time, seeing Brian and Al together for Pet Sounds was pretty fantastic. Too bad that didn't last.

The surviving members could put on one heck of a Pet Sounds concert. 50th Anniversarry, perhaps? I know that's wishful thinking.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Even though it was only a short time, seeing Brian and Al together for Pet Sounds was pretty fantastic. Too bad that didn't last.

The surviving members could put on one heck of a Pet Sounds concert. 50th Anniversarry, perhaps? I know that's wishful thinking.

Yes, it would be great. Keep in mind, on Pet Sounds, Dennis didn't sing any leads, and Carl only sang one, which could be given to Bruce, who is now singing it anyway.