Did Derek Taylor Give the Beatles a Sneek Peak at Smile Tapes?

[The Song Of The Grange]

I read this in Priore's Smile book.  Derek Taylor arranged for some of the Beatles to hear the then-in-progress Smile tapes.  VD Parks also hints at the idea that Taylor was a spy, placed in LA by the Beatles to report on Brian Wilson. Van Dyke said "the nest was found" and it bummed everyone out.  Almost sounds like VDP wants to blame the Beatles in part for Smile's demise.

Andrew G. Doe, in a 2006 post on this site regarding the Priore book, convincingly discredits the whole idea as pure myth.  Like with many Smile issues, I tend to agree with Mr. Doe.

Does anyone out there in the brain trust feel otherwise about the issue?  I think I am going to discredit it in my ongoing Smile essay project.

[juggler]

God only knows... but with Brian handing out acetates to his friends in late '66, it's not a huge stretch to imagine Derek Taylor playing some Smile stuff over the phone for Paul or John.  It's always seemed rather suspicious to me that a few short months after Brian recorded 'Barnyard,' the Beatles came up with the animal-noise-laden 'Good Morning, Good Morning.'

[the captain]

It's always seemed rather suspicious to me that a few short months after Brian recorded 'Barnyard,' the Beatles came up with the animal-noise-laden 'Good Morning, Good Morning.'

I don't know, it's not as if Brian invented the wheel or discovered electricity by imitating animal noises: using the sound of roosters crowing in a song called "Good Morning, Good Morning" seems pretty reasonable with or without Barnyard. And considering there were plenty of serious composers using non-traditional sounds for decades by that point, and that McCartney was exploring such composers, it is no stretch.

[Zander]

God only knows... but with Brian handing out acetates to his friends in late '66, it's not a huge stretch to imagine Derek Taylor playing some Smile stuff over the phone for Paul or John.  It's always seemed rather suspicious to me that a few short months after Brian recorded 'Barnyard,' the Beatles came up with the animal-noise-laden 'Good Morning, Good Morning.'

If you wanted to be arsey about it, you could say the Beatles beat Brian to it as they used seagull noises on "Tomorrow Never Knows" - months before "Barnyard" 

[Winston Wrong]

God only knows... but with Brian handing out acetates to his friends in late '66, it's not a huge stretch to imagine Derek Taylor playing some Smile stuff over the phone for Paul or John.  It's always seemed rather suspicious to me that a few short months after Brian recorded 'Barnyard,' the Beatles came up with the animal-noise-laden 'Good Morning, Good Morning.'

How about the similarity between "fresh clean air around my head, morning TUMBLED OUT OF BED" and "A Day In The Life" ... "Woke up, FELL OUT OF BED"

Or not... lol

[Howie Edelson]

It's a ridiculous notion.

First of all McCartney was the only Beatle traveling to the States prior to the release of "Pepper" -- and he ATTENDED a "Smile" session. That was after work had wrapped on "Pepper." Although there are numerous accounts of how McCartney blew Brian and Marilyn's minds by performing a live rendition of "She's Leaving Home" and perhaps the "A Day In The Life" acetate -- there is ZERO mention anywhere that Brian played him anything other than "Vegatables."

Now, I don't doubt that Derek Taylor had (maybe) mentioned to them about the work Brian was doing, but I don't believe he would ever offer to play them unfinished tapes -- or that the Beatles would ever feel comfortable in hearing them second hand. McCartney has gone on record saying that he wasn't particularly a fan of "Good Vibrations."

The thing that people never understand that although Brian was very much in a "production" race with the Beatles -- they weren't in one with him. Ever.

I think that the truth is (despite George Martin's guest spot which oddly is used TWICE in "Beautiful Dreamer") that the Beatles -- McCartney included -- really had nothing but a passing interest in the Beach Boys' "Smile" sessions. Honestly, I doubt Lennon and Harrison were even aware that the band was recording. Despite the recent mention on the board that Harrison was a Beach Boys fan -- that really wasn't the case. And at NO POINT were the Beatles interested in the Beach Boys for Apple. They even turned CSN down in late '68.

Priore's insinuation that the Beatles in some way ripped the Beach Boys off was offputting. Equally offputting is the thought that anyone who disagreed with Brian was an "enemy" of the project. One would think that when and if a DEFINITIVE and unbiased account of "Smile" gets released, the book will be able to say that "Brian got strung out on speed, got artistically over his head, and junked it."

Leave the Beatles out of "Smile."

[petsite]

I am sure that Taylor probably sent tapes of the acetates he was given to the Beatles. Why wouldn't you? The music is so fantastic that he would have been a fool not to. But the Beatles had enough talent, and were already heading in that SGT PEPPER direction that I doubt SMiLE would have caused them to stop and go another way. For if SMILE would have come out whne promised, SGT PEPPER would have followed and been looked upon as a copy of SMiLE. Not exactly the best situation.

Bob

[Jon Stebbins]

I am sure that Taylor probably sent tapes of the acetates he was given to the Beatles. Why wouldn't you? The music is so fantastic that he would have been a fool not to. But the Beatles had enough talent, and were already heading in that SGT PEPPER direction that I doubt SMiLE would have caused them to stop and go another way. For if SMILE would have come out whne promised, SGT PEPPER would have followed and been looked upon as a copy of SMiLE. Not exactly the best situation.

Bob

Were Penny Lane/Strawberry Fields looked upon as a copy of Good Vibrations? No. It was never a race to certain sound, that notion is absurd. It was a race to break down barriers, a race towards the avante garde...it seems like almost everybody was in the race that year, Brian had a lead with Smile but he stumbled, the Beatles just did what they always did, they advanced, they evolved with confidence...they never worried much about what other people were doing. Too bad Brian did. Smile and Sgt. Pepper are two different animals, they bear little similarity other that they both were highly irreverent and progressive as art.

[Bicyclerider]

I think it's plausible that Taylor might send acetates or tapes of acetates to Paul of Smile material, if Paul indicated he was interested . . . or might have played acetates to Paul when he was there in April (but Pepper was virtually finished by then) or in August, when the Beatles met up with Taylor and visited with Brian towards the end of their last tour.  But then why would Paul never make a mention of hearing these preview tapes/acetates?

But what Van Dyke and dominic suggest happened is something entirely different, that Taylor brought Paul and John to a studio to hear tapes in progress.  If he had, they would have heard only wonderful, Wind Chimes and Good Vibrations.  Nothing to really "steal" for Pepper, at least i don't hear any direct influence of those three songs.  And what engineer would play these tapes for Paul and John without Brian there?  It's pure conspiracy theory nonsense.

Incidentally, Taylor reported that Brian played Paul Wonderful, the planned Bside to Vegetables, on the piano during his visit.

[Dancing Bear]

Yeah, Taylor could have done all of those things. But why can't we be also sure that Taylor took acetates from the 1966 Beatles sessions (SFF, PL and WI64) and gave them to Brian? Since everything's possible...

[petsite]

I think the Beatles had two other advantages. One, they had George Martin who made sure sessions were completed. Two, they had Brian Epstein sho made sure that projects were completed. Brian was doing both of those with the Beach Boys which caused SMILE's no show as well. Had there been a Jerry Schilling or someone to say "Ok, let's get this out!"

[Andrew G. Doe]

I think the most telling evidence against this - aside from the undeniable fact that no-one was in the right place at the right time until Pepper was being mixed, of course - is that in the 40-odd years since, and most notably at the RFH premiere of BWPS, Macca hasn't said "oh yeah, heard that back in 1966". Not once.

[Dancing Bear]

I think the Beatles had two other advantages. One, they had George Martin who made sure sessions were completed. Two, they had Brian Epstein sho made sure that projects were completed. Brian was doing both of those with the Beach Boys which caused SMILE's no show as well. Had there been a Jerry Schilling or someone to say "Ok, let's get this out!"

That was in 1963. In 66/67 the Beatles (read John and Paul) were as much on their own as Brian. They HAD the power to keep recording an album for months to no end and tell Martin and Epstein to take a hike. The absence of new and original Beatles product in the shops for Christmas '66 is proof of that. Like Mr. Stebbins said, "the Beatles just did what they always did, they advanced, they evolved with confidence...they never worried much about what other people were doing".

[A Million Units In Jan!]

I think AGD hit it right on the head. Never once have/had ANY of them come out and said one peep about SMiLE. Of course they heard about it, but to never once even say a word about it, pretty much says it all. And anyway, if Brian had any indication that the Beatles had stolen his stuff, don't you think he would have said so himself at some point over the years? VDP comments about the whold Beatles thing is kind of embarassing.

[c-man]

It's always seemed rather suspicious to me that a few short months after Brian recorded 'Barnyard,' the Beatles came up with the animal-noise-laden 'Good Morning, Good Morning.'

I don't know, it's not as if Brian invented the wheel or discovered electricity by imitating animal noises: using the sound of roosters crowing in a song called "Good Morning, Good Morning" seems pretty reasonable with or without Barnyard. And considering there were plenty of serious composers using non-traditional sounds for decades by that point, and that McCartney was exploring such composers, it is no stretch.

The Beatles got the idea for their "Good Morning, Good Morning" animal sounds from the dog barks at the end of "Caroline, No"...according to Roy Carr and Tony Tyler. 

[the captain]

Well I have no idea who those two people are. But I suppose that means I'm supposed to put my tail between my legs and mope away. Instead, I'll stand behind what I said: it's not a stretch to think of animal sounds. If they indeed got the idea from PS, that still doesn't change my sentiment one bit.

[lupinofan]

Priore's insinuation that the Beatles in some way ripped the Beach Boys off was offputting.

Priore also makes the outrageous allegation that Bruce Johnston witnessed the murder of John Dolphin at the hands of Percy Mayfield.

Fortunately, Mayfield was too busy being dead to sue for defamation. Dolphin was murdered, and Johnston did apparently witness it. But the murderer was Percy Ivy. Percy Mayfield was probably too busy writing "Hit The Road, Jack" at the time of the murder.

I sent my copy of the book to a charity shop after reading it, wishing I'd kept the money in my wallet.

[Fall Breaks]

Dolphin was murdered, and Johnston did apparently witness it. But the murderer was Percy Ivy.

Okay, hold it. Bruce Johnston witnessed a murder? When and why was this?

[Andrew G. Doe]

This thread -

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,5260.0.html

[Fall Breaks]

This thread -

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,5260.0.html

Thanks, Andrew. A bit strange that hasn't been mentioned more (by Bruce, for instance). Or maybe it's talked about all the time and I just don't notice.

[Howie Edelson]

Luther -- hope this helps:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Carr

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Tyler

[Dr. Tim]

Roy Carr and Tony Tyler wrote one of the best Beatle books pre-1980, the Illustrated Beatles, which was pretty authoritative until new info came out with the Mark Lewinsohn book and the reminiscences of Paul and the others in the Paul bio and the Beatles coffee table book.  Lennon himself wrote them a couple of mash notes before his death, they printed one of them in the inside cover.

[Ed Roach]

Lennon himself wrote them a couple of mash notes before his death, they printed one of them in the inside cover.

Wow; this is completely off topic, but it reminded me of two things...
Listening to an interview of Howie Vinnie & Brian, where he tells Brian
about me listening to he & VDP finishing Sail on Sailor at Bellagio, (Brian
wanted to know "what I thought?"!!!).  However, it also reminded me of
notes that Dennis left behind...  (One that stands out is from the self-portrait
that he drew on my birthday card in '81.  While a few years before his death,
you'd have to see the full card, to understand what it foreshadows...  You do
see the reprint of his drawing, at the end of Stebbins "The Real Beach Boy".) 
More significant, though, is a note that he wrote to my daughter the night
before he left us, promising to 'always be with her'...       Forever is a long time....

[c-man]

Well I have no idea who those two people are. But I suppose that means I'm supposed to put my tail between my legs and mope away. Instead, I'll stand behind what I said: it's not a stretch to think of animal sounds. If they indeed got the idea from PS, that still doesn't change my sentiment one bit.

Naw, Luther, I just threw that out there 'cause it was relevant to the discussion about the two groups' use of the animal sounds...and also 'cause I don't necessarily believe it to be true, hence the  I added.  And actually, they more "implied" it than "stated" it...something like "the trick of using animal sounds to cover up the fact that the song has no real ending was already used on The Beach Boys' 'Pet Sounds'" (paraphrasing here).  Which, to make another point, goes to show that a lot of the U.K. press has always held "Pet Sounds" in higher regard than "Sgt. Pepper" (the opposite of the traditional U.S. opinion). 
Frankly, I get a kick out of the Beatles' idea of using successive sounds from animals that are able to frighten or devour the preceeeding animal...that's pretty brilliant!

[Andrew G. Doe]

Frankly, I get a kick out of the Beatles' idea of using successive sounds from animals that are able to frighten or devour the preceding animal...that's pretty brilliant!

Brilliant maybe... but not original. Remember the children's song, "There Was An Old Woman Who Swallowed A Fly" ?  The version i recall is by Burl Ives.