Recording Date for Heroes and Villains Intro/Fire Intro??

[The Song Of The Grange]

Can anyone give me a solid date that the box set version of the Heroes/Fire intro was recorded?  In the bootlegs I have heard two other versions that sound like early versions of the same track (Chimes Version, Bag of Tricks).  I have read that the Chimes version was on a comp tape made by Brian on Dec. 17th 1966.

I am interested because I have my doubts about the piece actually being intended as the intro to Mrs. O'Leary's cow.  I think it was David Leaf (?) who suggested the idea in one of his books in the 70's or 80's.  I think quite a bit of the 2004 release was awhile of the myth that had grown around the sessions and was informed by that myth.  The Intro came out on the box set as "Heroes and Villains Intro" and many of us assumed that they had made an error, and the fact that the tape box (or whatever) said Heroes and Villains intro didn't mean that it was actually that.  I bought the idea for a long time.  Sure, it is the firemen heading to the fire.  Pictorial music.  Makes sense.

If the Intro was recorded later than mid December 66 then it would be very unlikely that it was the Fire Intro, being that Brian had by then freaked out and decided not to use the Mrs. O'Leary track.  My hunch is that it actually is a Heroes and Villains fragment, and possibly an intended intro to an incarnation of that song.  It even has the same whistles as H&V, a song that Brian once described as a 3 minute musical comedy.  And what if it is true that the Intro is the intro to Mrs O'Leary's Cow?  How does one explain all the associations with Heroes and Villains?

Which leads me the wild idea: what if Mrs. O'Leary's Cow was part of a longer version of Heroes and Villains?  I know, it is really out there.  Could the Elements all been part of the Americana section of the record? 

Every Element but Wind Chimes has some sort of link to Heroes and Villains.  Vega-Tables has the Do-A-Lot and With Me Tonight connection, Love to Say Da Da (if we buy this as the Water section) has the demo "All Day" which was cut at a Heroes and Villains session.  And Fire has the H&V intro.  To follow the path further, the intended ending of Fire was I Wanna Be Around/Friday Night.  I have seen a few sources, one I believe was David Anderle, who mention that Barnyard had a bunch of hammering and work noises. I have always thought this was just a mistake, but maybe not.  If Friday Night was somehow linked to Barnyard, things get interesting.  The Heroes and Villains fade has been linked with Barnyard too (though the "Barnshine" version is pretty mysterious).  Barnyard itself has ties to Heroes and Villains.  If you place the H&V fade right in front of Vega-tables it is interesting how similar the melodies and rhythm are.  Listen to the laughing in the backing track to the "Cornucopia" version of Vega-tables, doesn't that echo the laughing in the Cantina section of H&V.   I'm In Great Shape also has links to "Heroes and Villains "and (sketchy I admit) links to Friday Night.  Old Master Painter/Sunshine has been linked to H & V and I have, in another post on this board, suggested that a case can be made for the piece to link thematically with the Elements.  Priore notes that an early version of the 2003 Smile set list had "Holidays" in the Americana section, which is a whole other can of worms.  Mrs. O'Leary's Cow also sounds very akin to the Iron Horse chorus of Cabinessence (I would argue that the link is as strong as the Good Vibrations reference in Look.)  Could this all have once been one big primordial Smile stew?  Are the rumors and legends of a super long version of H&V true?

However, to sort of rip apart my own theory, I question the links between H&V and Do You Like Worms, which at first would seem obvious.  The Bicycle Rider theme wasn't part of H&V till February 1967, which makes me think that it was an early example of Smile tracks being cannibalized for other uses.  This could also explain the use of "With Me Tonight" and "Do-A-Lot" in the April 67' version of Vega-tables--a reuse of cut fragments that became the MO in the making of Smiley Smile.

[The Song Of The Grange]

This is sort of a follow up to the  Jan 24th post by Bicyclerider.  Sorry to anyone who feels it is redundant.  Any input would be great.  Below is the post by Bicyclerider.

It was recorded to be part of Heroes and Villains, it has the bass line of Fall Breaks, and is similar though sparser and more percussive than "Intro" (which only "became" part of "Fire" when David Leaf put it in front of Fire on the Mark Linnett 1988 Smile tape compilation, put together to submit to Capitol to consider release at that time.  Brian must of liked the idea because he then did the same on BWPS, but it was "intro to Heroes and villains" when it was recorded up to Leaf's reassignment of the piece).  It probably was a reworking of the Intro (because there is also an earlier intro with chimes/bells that Bag of Tricks likely supplanted, only to have Brian redo the Intro again in March).

[Jeff]

I never understood why people thought that Fire would even have an intro.  Fire was supposed to be one of four parts of the Elements.  It's already 1:40, and if the H&V intro were added, it would be 2:15.  That seems way too long for part 1 of a 4-part song.

[Bicyclerider]

The boxset intro was recorded March 1 as Heroes and Villains "Part 2 (intro)" with 8 musicians.  March 2nd Brian recorded overdubs as Heroes and Villains "Part 2 (insert)."

The chimes version of intro is on a comp tape that was assembled in 1972 by Desper and Carl with some Heroes stuff on it,  but the only tape known with the chimes intro is this compilation tape.  Alan et al haven't found the chimes intro source tape or any dates associated with it to my knowledge.  Bag of Tricks is on the Jan 3rd tape, and I've assumed the chimes intro predates it but that could be incorrect. Here's what's on the comp tape:

Good Vibrations (partial mix)
Cabinessence – several sections
Worms – sections 1,2,4,5,6,7
Wonderful – GV box set version instrumental tracking with backing vocals only (booted on Vigotone’s 2CD set and the Japanese CD T-2580)
Child is the Father, several sections
Vega-Tables “cornucopia” version
Heroes and Villains – two verses, one with vocals, one without, H & V intro (chimes version), H & V “barbershop Part 1”
Barnyard – two versions, one with animal sounds, one without
Prayer

If you check the dates of these sessions, there's nothing on here recorded later than December 66 - Cabinessence, Child, wonderful backing vocals - lots of vocals done in December in the push to finish the album by January.  The only possible exception to this is the Heroes verse vocals and barbershop (a capella section), which we know were recorded in January but those may have been rerecordings - they may have recorded verse vocals and barbership Dec 13th, Brian did some solo vocal overdubs late in December as well.  So since everything on the tape basically comes from December or before, I've assumed the chimes intro is from Nov/Dec also.  But as I've pointed out, that could be incorrect and it could have been recorded AFTER Bag of Tricks Jan 3rd - we don't have any indication that Desper and Carl were assembling these comp tapes by the dates of recording.  If true, that would mean Bag of Tricks came first, then Brian rethought that section and recorded chimes intro (probably before Feb 10th when the cantina version was put together), rejected it, and then redid it on March 1 and 2 for the Heroes Bside "Part 2."

[Boiled Egg]

i only realised recently that the 'fire intro' is another version of 'who ran the iron horse'.  i've no idea if this observation is helpful.  (backs out quietly...)

[Sheriff John Stone]

I never understood why people thought that Fire would even have an intro.  Fire was supposed to be one of four parts of the Elements.  It's already 1:40, and if the H&V intro were added, it would be 2:15.  That seems way too long for part 1 of a 4-part song.

Excellent point. And, I've made the point before, but not convincingly, that the order seems backwards. You always have the fire first, then the bells, whistles, and sirens follow. It's like putting the fire truck before the fire. Yes, I know, you can envision firemen fighting the fire during the playing of Mrs. O'Leary' Cow.

[The Song Of The Grange]

Bicyclerider, amazing info you give here.  This is a big help.  In the Keith Badman book I keep working from he suggests that a very similar comp tape was made on December 17th and/or 18th 1966.  I wonder if he has overlooked some details.  Badman's timeline completely backs up your suggestion of a March 1st and 2nd recording date.  I overlooked this info because it was for part 2, I didn't make the connection.  I am still not completely convinced that there was a Heroes part 2, despite lots of folks attesting to the fact.  I am still on the fences.

In the Mrs O'Leary's Cow sessions Brian at one point has the flutes do a little test note.  I cut that out and used it for my Fire intro on the Smile mix I made last fall.  Very Krzysztof Penderecki (Threnody to the Victims of Hiroshima from 1960 has some similar vibes to Mrs. O'Leary's Cow).

Jeff, I agree with your statement.  I guess I have always justified it by thinking of the narration following the firemen on their way to the fire like in the firehouse movie they filmed in the fall of 66'.

[Mr. Cohen]

Well, when I actually listen to the "H & V intro" I notice two things: it has that weird noise that I don't know what to call, except that it reminds me of someone slipping on a banana peel and is in the background during the first verse of "H & V", and it has a lot of what sounds like train whistles. Stories of about the early versions of "H & V" often make of mention there being train whistles and various sound effects. It also sounds like it could be the theme to a dastardly villain, kind of vaudeville sounding if you will, which fits in with the piano parts from the "cantina" version. Also interesting is that Brian and Mike trade off on the lead vocals in the earlier versions; could it be that Brian was cleverly juxtaposing the hero (himself) with the villain trying to steal the spotlight (Mike)? After all, we know from no less than Van Dyke that the "sunny down snuff" lyrics really were a dig at Mike.

There's actually a lot that can be extrapolated from this, although it's all conjecture. For example, in this early recording of "H & V", Mike's first line is "I've been taken for lost and gone and unknown for a long long time", which could reference how he hasn't been as involved in the songwriting. Mike also sings the parts "and she was right in the rain of the bullets that eventually brought her down..." and "what a dude'll do in a town full of heroes and villains..." (dude'll do being a sly reference to c*ck a doodle doo, or a doodle, being a cartoon character). That sets up the Cantina section, which interestingly enough only Mike sings. From this one could almost guess that Mike is supposed to be representing adrunken character (drinking margaritas) that is leering at a girl, perhaps someone else's girl? Could he be the one that fired the bullets that shot her down? There's just no telling what a dude'll do. But honestly, I've think I've gone too far with the metaphors this time.

But

[Jason]

The chimes version of intro is on a comp tape that was assembled in 1972 by Desper and Carl with all sorts of Heroes stuff on it, including some of the Jan 3, 1967 sessions - but the only tape known with the chimes intro is this compilation tape.  Alan et al haven't found the chimes intro source tape or any dates associated with it to my knowledge. 

In my notes I have a recording date of 3/1/67 for the "chimes intro", which to the best of my knowledge wasn't exactly a "take", probably just Brian messing around with sounds. On the recording to correspond with the noted session date, it begins with Van Dyke on organ messing around while Brian directs him towards a sound. Then there is a rehearsal with piano and organ, which seems like a master, but Brian then abandons it for the piano and chimes sound previously mentioned. Take 1 is called, but there seems to be no more after the music ends. Then, from the same day, there's the undubbed take of the "Intro", without whistles or organ, which were overdubbed on 3/2/67.

[The Shift]

I never understood why people thought that Fire would even have an intro.  Fire was supposed to be one of four parts of the Elements.  It's already 1:40, and if the H&V intro were added, it would be 2:15.  That seems way too long for part 1 of a 4-part song.

Excellent point. And, I've made the point before, but not convincingly, that the order seems backwards. You always have the fire first, then the bells, whistles, and sirens follow. It's like putting the fire truck before the fire. Yes, I know, you can envision firemen fighting the fire during the playing of Mrs. O'Leary' Cow.

Yes -  and the last three bangs in MOC were supposed to be someone stamping the fire out, IIRC from the SoT sessions.

What always got me about the song order for BWPS was Heroes coming before Worms - one minute we're in the wild west gunning each other down as a train rolls in, then we're back at Plymouth Rock being greeted by the locals. Seems juxtaposed.

[The Song Of The Grange]

Thanks friendly neighborhood Global Moderator, that date is helpful.  One thing I am struck by is the late dates of some of these Intro sessions.  I always figured that the Intro must have been a relic of what Brian called "a long winded version of Heroes and Villains."  Maybe in the Oct/Nov/Dec era.  What I am learning here on the board is that seems to be a later invention, though Keith Badman's Definitive Diary places the Chimes version sometime before Dec 17th-18th.  But I am beginning to doubt some of Badman's dates (rightly so(?), I am not sure).

Wee Helper: I too have wondered about the narrative chronology of having Heroes first.  I have begun to wonder if the themes might have been looser and spread over the whole album, kind of like the "show" theme was spread (very loosely) through out Sgt Pepper (Sgt Pepper intro/Billy Sheers sings A Little Help From My Friends/Mr. Kite/Sgt Pepper Reprise).  My gut feeling though, is that Wilson was going for more of a "movements" based form, but alas it is lost to history. 

Unless, that is, I am the one who can solve the riddle.  I am dumb enough (or obsessed enough) to think I can do it!

[Bicyclerider]

The chimes version of intro is on a comp tape that was assembled in 1972 by Desper and Carl with all sorts of Heroes stuff on it, including some of the Jan 3, 1967 sessions - but the only tape known with the chimes intro is this compilation tape.  Alan et al haven't found the chimes intro source tape or any dates associated with it to my knowledge. 

In my notes I have a recording date of 3/1/67 for the "chimes intro", which to the best of my knowledge wasn't exactly a "take", probably just Brian messing around with sounds. On the recording to correspond with the noted session date, it begins with Van Dyke on organ messing around while Brian directs him towards a sound. Then there is a rehearsal with piano and organ, which seems like a master, but Brian then abandons it for the piano and chimes sound previously mentioned. Take 1 is called, but there seems to be no more after the music ends. Then, from the same day, there's the undubbed take of the "Intro", without whistles or organ, which were overdubbed on 3/2/67.

March 1 is the actual "intro" - the chimes intro is different and is really just a bass, piano, and a chiming bell, no whistles/kazoos/organ.  The recording you're referring to is probably a demo or rehearsal to the March 1 session, Van dyke was present at that session.

[Boiled Egg]

is there any speculation as to whether this segment was ever the 'air' portion of the elements?  after all, it's mainly driven by air - whistles, organ, whizzers, duck calls, etc - and it's short enough to be one quarter of something not too long.

[Chris Brown]

is there any speculation as to whether this segment was ever the 'air' portion of the elements?  after all, it's mainly driven by air - whistles, organ, whizzers, duck calls, etc - and it's short enough to be one quarter of something not too long.

That's an interesting thought...I don't think that's the case though, given Brian's later description of "Air" as a piano piece that was never completed. 

[Boiled Egg]

is there any speculation as to whether this segment was ever the 'air' portion of the elements?  after all, it's mainly driven by air - whistles, organ, whizzers, duck calls, etc - and it's short enough to be one quarter of something not too long.

That's an interesting thought...I don't think that's the case though, given Brian's later description of "Air" as a piano piece that was never completed. 

but that could be a description of the fire intro.  its basis is the piano/organ chromatic spirals, after all.  and it may well be unfinished - it's missing vocals, for instance.

[The Song Of The Grange]

I have speculated that when Brian was referring to the unfinished piano section for "Air" he was actually talking about the multi-piano tag to the Box Set version of Wind Chimes.  It has lots of pianos, no vocals, and was not "finished", that is, not polished, mixed and released (until the box set).  The tag is a remake of the original version, which was very similar but had less overdubs and went longer (like the 2004 ending).  It's just a theory, no hard data.

[Chris Brown]

I have speculated that when Brian was referring to the unfinished piano section for "Air" he was actually talking about the multi-piano tag to the Box Set version of Wind Chimes.  It has lots of pianos, no vocals, and was not "finished", that is, not polished, mixed and released (until the box set).  The tag is a remake of the original version, which was very similar but had less overdubs and went longer (like the 2004 ending).  It's just a theory, no hard data.

I like that theory a lot...I could definitely buy that section being "Air."

[c-man]

I have speculated that when Brian was referring to the unfinished piano section for "Air" he was actually talking about the multi-piano tag to the Box Set version of Wind Chimes.  It has lots of pianos, no vocals, and was not "finished", that is, not polished, mixed and released (until the box set).  The tag is a remake of the original version, which was very similar but had less overdubs and went longer (like the 2004 ending).  It's just a theory, no hard data.

You got it (as far as I'm concerned).  Which brings me to this point:  the 2004 BWPS doesn't (perhaps deliberately?) officially designate any of the tracks as "The Elements", yet if you notice, in the Third Movement there is a clear break of 2 seconds or so following "Vega-Tables", which is followed by four songs that segue into one another:  "On A Holiday" (earth?  think about it...a pirate on a holiday...where do pirates go on holiday?...the land, of course) / "Wind Chimes" (including what Song Of The Grange and I consider to be the "wordless piano piece" for air) / "Mrs. O'Learly's Cow" (fire) / "In Blue Hawaii" (water).

In this lineup, "Vega-Tables" is not intended to be "earth", but rather the final part of the preceeding "fitness" suite that constitutes the first part of the Third Movement.  Perhaps Brian & Co. willfully avoided labeling it as "The Elements" so that the fan base could kinda figure it out for themselves, if they wanted to. 

[Sheriff John Stone]

Which brings me to this point:  the 2004 BWPS doesn't (perhaps deliberately?) officially designate any of the tracks as "The Elements...

And why is that? I'll attempt to answer my own question. They couldn't. The 2004 Elements are not consecutive.

It would have to be, "On A Holiday" (the Earth element), then go through the "Whispering Winds" segment and the "Wind Chimes" song, until you came to the tag for "Wind Chimes" (the Wind element), then continue along with another non-element, the bells and whistles, until you come to "Mrs O'Leary's Cow (the Fire element), then come to the "the water chant" (is that part of the water element?), until you come to "In Blue Hawaii" (the Water element). Whew!

I'm not saying the elements designations that are being proposed aren't correct, but it could not have been sequenced that way in 1966.

[Boiled Egg]

cute though this is, it doesn't quite add up.  why would only one part of 'wind chimes' be the air segment?  why not all of it?

as for 'on a holiday' equalling 'earth'... that's a stretch even mrs wildenstein's face would be hard pushed to accommodate.

[c-man]

In my little sceanario, ALL of "Wind Chimes" is the Air element...which INCLUDES the "wordless piano piece".   

As far as making sense, I was originally trying to make sense of "On A Holiday" appearing in the middle of what I assumed was "The Elements Suite" starting with "Vega-Tables"...but why would it be?  And why would "Workshop" segue into "Vega-Tables" but "Vega-Tables" NOT segue into "On A Holiday", unless they were parts of two different "mini-suites".

In this sceanario, "Vega-Tables" may (or may not) have originally been considered the Earth element, but it no longer is..."On A Holiday" is. 

[The Song Of The Grange]

The chimes version of intro is on a comp tape that was assembled in 1972 by Desper and Carl with all sorts of Heroes stuff on it, including some of the Jan 3, 1967 sessions - but the only tape known with the chimes intro is this compilation tape.  Alan et al haven't found the chimes intro source tape or any dates associated with it to my knowledge.

In my notes I have a recording date of 3/1/67 for the "chimes intro", which to the best of my knowledge wasn't exactly a "take", probably just Brian messing around with sounds. On the recording to correspond with the noted session date, it begins with Van Dyke on organ messing around while Brian directs him towards a sound. Then there is a rehearsal with piano and organ, which seems like a master, but Brian then abandons it for the piano and chimes sound previously mentioned. Take 1 is called, but there seems to be no more after the music ends. Then, from the same day, there's the undubbed take of the "Intro", without whistles or organ, which were overdubbed on 3/2/67.

Ok, my latest thinking on the subject.  What if the Chimes Intro version actually was intended for Mrs. O'Leary's Cow, and then Brian re-recorded it in March 67 for use in the H&V part 2 song.  It is the March version (box set version) that is more obviously a H & V sound.  The Chimes version and (in some ways) the Bag Of Tricks version, are less of a H & V feel.  Brian had already pulled the Bicycle Rider part out of Do you Dig Worms for use in H & V (maybe even for H & V part 2 at this stage if you consider the box set mix of H & V part 1).  The fire intro could have been re-tooled for use in the single B-side.  The recording dates seem to support this theory.  Chimes dating from pre-January, and the box set intro dating from March 67.  I have felt that other variations on the H & V chant for part 2 also echo things that had already been done in Smile, particularly With Me Tonight and Do-A-Lot.