For Jeff - A SMILE topic - Heroes And Villains

[petsite]

This is for Jeff has he would like to discuss SMILE some. So here we go.....

I always kinda liked H&V. Never a fave. But when I heard the January 27th 1967 mix (my birthday btw, I was eight), I fell in love with the song. The released version has such a freaking laided back lead by Brian. The cantina version has such an energetic lead and the whole tune piece is alot more vibrant. H&V is now one of my top 5 all time favorite. Any one else like this one better?

PS - When I mentioned this to someone back in the 90's, they said "January 27th - Brian still using uppers....more energy. June 1967, Brian and the group smoking hash..very mellow....." 

[Chris Brown]

I've always prefered the "Cantina" version.  Not so much because of the lead vocals being more energetic, but because it makes for a more exciting song.  Brian originally envisioned H&V as a "three-minute musical comedy," and I think the "Cantina" version more closely accomplished that.  The sections flow smoothly, and pass more quickly, keeping up the excitement level.  Another plus for me is the lack of a chorus...the chorus in the released version has always felt so slow dull to me.  The song works better without it, in my opinion.

I wish they had released that version in February/March instead of keeping everyone in suspense until July, only to release an (IMO) inferior mix.

[TonyW]

I used to find Heroes & Villains really hard to listen to until I first heard the Cantina version (which I love) and then later heard the various sessions on the SOT box set. The reason I found the single version so hard to listen to is the really poor mix that Brian did on it - I don't know the technical terms but it always sounded "thin & tinny" to me. I didn't "get" the single version until the stereo remix on the Hawthorne set.

[petsite]

Me too. I really think that Brian did a terrible job on the final mixdown of the released version of H&V. And I think it came from the semi-professional equipment they were using at his home. he should have taken it to Western or Wally Heider's place to do the mastering.

SMILEY SMILE (regardless of the musical merits.....I personally love it) sonic wise sounds like s**t. Buzzing from badly connected cable. Hiss out the butt from poorly aligned heads. Just crap. And Wild Honey (again sonic wise) sounds the same. Only on Friends (when Mr. Desper arrives) do we get an aurally clearer sound. And a more professional one.

And here is something I noticed. The outtakes from SMILEY SMILE all sound sonically better than the final product(the afore mentioned stereo mix of H&V). It leads me to believe it was the way things were mixed down. Up until Friends, I believe, they were using a concert mixing board and not a true recording mixer.

[A Million Units In Jan!]

The Cantina version was the first 'official' piece of SMiLE I heard, on the box set. I can remember hearing it for the first time, and just going ' What the hell was that?'. It was all over the place, and I loved it. The version on Smiley is crap compared to the Cantina version ( and I love Smiley). I think I love it because it's so different. Allof the different stops it has ( into acapella bits, You're under arrest! and then into the My Children with piano, the end where it goes into the H&V theme played on therremin with that feedback ). I don't know if it would have done well as a single, though. Because to be honest, I don't think it flows together very well, ala Good Vibrations.
I still love it, though.

[Bicyclerider]

For the single Brian mixed the instrumental track down and the added organ up, all the great percussion in the chorus is gone (thankfully restored in the stereo remix), the complexity of the track is gone - maybe to highlight the vocal track, which is amazing, maybe to make it sound more like the other tracks on Smiley.  But yeah, the cantina version rules - if we could only find the acetate of Part 2!

[The infamous Baldwin Organ]

SMILEY SMILE (regardless of the musical merits.....I personally love it) sonic wise sounds like s**t. Buzzing from badly connected cable. Hiss out the butt from poorly aligned heads. Just crap. And Wild Honey (again sonic wise) sounds the same. Only on Friends (when Mr. Desper arrives) do we get an aurally clearer sound. And a more professional one.

And here is something I noticed. The outtakes from SMILEY SMILE all sound sonically better than the final product(the afore mentioned stereo mix of H&V). It leads me to believe it was the way things were mixed down. Up until Friends, I believe, they were using a concert mixing board and not a true recording mixer.

I completely agree with you, and to the best of my ability have worked on a 'fan mix' of reconstructing the album from the outtakes. I was able to get most things nearly complete, but the real point here was that just opening up the mix made all the difference in the world. Smiley Smile was actually a really creative album, but you wouldn't know it from the way it was mixed.

[Shady]

SMILEY SMILE (regardless of the musical merits.....I personally love it) sonic wise sounds like s**t. Buzzing from badly connected cable. Hiss out the butt from poorly aligned heads. Just crap. And Wild Honey (again sonic wise) sounds the same. Only on Friends (when Mr. Desper arrives) do we get an aurally clearer sound. And a more professional one.

And here is something I noticed. The outtakes from SMILEY SMILE all sound sonically better than the final product(the afore mentioned stereo mix of H&V). It leads me to believe it was the way things were mixed down. Up until Friends, I believe, they were using a concert mixing board and not a true recording mixer.

I completely agree with you, and to the best of my ability have worked on a 'fan mix' of reconstructing the album from the outtakes. I was able to get most things nearly complete, but the real point here was that just opening up the mix made all the difference in the world. Smiley Smile was actually a really creative album, but you wouldn't know it from the way it was mixed.

That can be said about a number of BB albums.

[The infamous Baldwin Organ]

While we're talking about Smiley Smile, to anyone who was alive to remember, did Capitol promote Smiley Smile with serious effort? I was always under the impression that they let it sink without leaving much of a trace.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Up until Friends, I believe, they were using a concert mixing board and not a true recording mixer.

Up to and including Friends, the board at the home studio was a Gates Dualux radio console, and the tape machines 3M 8-tracks rented from Wally Heider.

The specs of the Dualux were as follows: dual program design, controlling two separate lines. You could run the AM on one program and the FM on the other. It has nine mixing channels, five microphone, two turntables, one remote and one network. It has 21 input circuits, seven for mic, four TT, five remotes, 1 network and four tape. Response is ± 1.5 db 30-15,000 cycles with distortion 1% or less. Noise -60 db or better.

[petsite]

Holy crap, Andrew. I used one of those boards in my first radio jobs in the 70's. They were NOT good for recording in a studio situtation. Cutting commercials and putting 45's on tapes, yes. Not recording.

[petsite]

SMILEY SMILE (regardless of the musical merits.....I personally love it) sonic wise sounds like s**t. Buzzing from badly connected cable. Hiss out the butt from poorly aligned heads. Just crap. And Wild Honey (again sonic wise) sounds the same. Only on Friends (when Mr. Desper arrives) do we get an aurally clearer sound. And a more professional one.

And here is something I noticed. The outtakes from SMILEY SMILE all sound sonically better than the final product(the afore mentioned stereo mix of H&V). It leads me to believe it was the way things were mixed down. Up until Friends, I believe, they were using a concert mixing board and not a true recording mixer.

I completely agree with you, and to the best of my ability have worked on a 'fan mix' of reconstructing the album from the outtakes. I was able to get most things nearly complete, but the real point here was that just opening up the mix made all the difference in the world. Smiley Smile was actually a really creative album, but you wouldn't know it from the way it was mixed.

 I have had my own mix in stereo of this lp since 2000. I listen to that.   And imho, SMILEY SMILE  & WILD HONEY sound alot better on the 1990 NO NOISED CD than the 2001 version.  Mark did both so this isnt a knock against him,  I am speaking of the source sound.

[A Million Units In Jan!]

Doesn't that 'lo-fi' sound sort of add to the charm, at least in Smiley's case? It gives off the feeling of, well, a bunch of guys doing an album in the living room. That's kind of what I always liked about it.

Not necessarily the best album to make if you haven't had an album out in a year and you've spent tens of thousands of dollars already in a real recording studio, though-only to 'scrap' what you did. I can see where that would be a problem in Capitol's eyes.

I'd love to see an interview where Mike is asked extensively about what he remembers about Smiley.

[runnersdialzero]

Smiley Smile sounds great to me as is. It's not Smile, but we won't go there - I'm talking about Smiley Smile, here.

 Wild Honey, on the other hand...

I certainly wouldn't be opposed to a stereo remix, though

[Jeff]

This is for Jeff has he would like to discuss SMILE some. So here we go.....

I always kinda liked H&V. Never a fave. But when I heard the January 27th 1967 mix (my birthday btw, I was eight), I fell in love with the song. The released version has such a freaking laided back lead by Brian. The cantina version has such an energetic lead and the whole tune piece is alot more vibrant. H&V is now one of my top 5 all time favorite. Any one else like this one better?

PS - When I mentioned this to someone back in the 90's, they said "January 27th - Brian still using uppers....more energy. June 1967, Brian and the group smoking hash..very mellow....." 

Thanks petsite.  I definitely prefer the Cantina version as well.  Although I have no illusions that it is as good as the earlier version which included Barnyard and Great Shape, it sounds very alive to me, and I really like the tape explosion and the fade.  I also like the "My Children Were Raised" and "Sunny Down Snuff" verses of the Smiley/Hawthorne version, but I get around that problem by making them a separate track on my compilation, following How I Love My Girl (which itself follows Cantina).  Of course, it probably isn't the way Smile would have come out, but it makes for good listening.

[TdHabib]

Maybe my favorite verison of "H&V" (which I don't have but only heard awhile ago, if anyone can PM) is where Brian and Mike switch-off on the verses "I've been in this town so long that back in the city" then Mike comes in with the "I've been taken for lost and gone..." I always thought to myself that this might've been Brian's original intention. It's very cool.

[runnersdialzero]

Maybe my favorite verison of "H&V" (which I don't have but only heard awhile ago, if anyone can PM) is where Brian and Mike switch-off on the verses "I've been in this town so long that back in the city" then Mike comes in with the "I've been taken for lost and gone..." I always thought to myself that this might've been Brian's original intention. It's very cool.

I've heard this mix - it's very interesting, but ultimately I prefer just Brian on lead.

Aren't there other mixes with a few of the other members singing? I listened recently but it was hard to tell who was singing lead.

Also, was the, "Stand or fall," verse ever recorded for the "Cantina" version? It's the only thing I miss about the Smiley Smiley version, and I'd love to do an edit with it in.

[Chris Brown]

Maybe my favorite verison of "H&V" (which I don't have but only heard awhile ago, if anyone can PM) is where Brian and Mike switch-off on the verses "I've been in this town so long that back in the city" then Mike comes in with the "I've been taken for lost and gone..." I always thought to myself that this might've been Brian's original intention. It's very cool.

Yeah I've heard that version before, on one of the boots (can't remember which one at the moment).  I thought it was really cool how each line seamlessly shifted from Brian to Mike.  Quite innovative, if you ask me.  Thanks for reminding me of that!

[petsite]

That version appears on:

[TdHabib]

I heard a funny thing about the Prime Minister...

[the captain]

Ah, smooth subtlety is alive and well.

[Mr. Cohen]

Maybe my favorite verison of "H&V" (which I don't have but only heard awhile ago, if anyone can PM) is where Brian and Mike switch-off on the verses "I've been in this town so long that back in the city" then Mike comes in with the "I've been taken for lost and gone..." I always thought to myself that this might've been Brian's original intention. It's very cool.

Yeah, my favorite version of H&V was the version I made that used it. It goes:

H & V intro (otherwise known as the "fire intro") -> Brian/Mike doing the first verses -> a capella bit taken from the Smiley Smile version, so it has that cool sound effect at the end to smooth the transition -> Cantina section, a high quality version from the boots that doesn't have the laughing (unfortunately), kept the "whoo, whoo, whoo" instead of the "you're under arrest" part -> it then goes to the fast "healthy, wealthy, and wise" part from the cantina version, with the piano transition leading to Brian/Mike trading off on "three score and five...", you can even hear a little cough before they start singing -> whistling distortion part from the cantina version (the only part that dips in audio quality, everything else is pristine, although the scratchiness could easily seem to be part of the effect) -> instrumental ending with "dumb be dooby doo" vocals from the cantina version, but in high quality from the boots.

The audio quality on this version is really good and it flows. It clocks in at 3:41, a good length for a single, although the BBs probably would have chickened out of starting their next single with the "H & V intro", because it is definitely weird, but I like how it starts the song off with a hectic feel, which balances out the extremely chill feel of the ending perfectly. It backs up the feeling of the lyrics, which start off depicting a struggle and end with a feeling of resolve.

[Bicyclerider]

The sequence of events with the shared vocals might explain why Mike has a love/hate relationship with this track - it seemed to start out with a shared vocal, and with Mike doing the cantina vocal.  Then Mike just does harmony on the end of the lines (taken for lost and gone and unknown for a "long long time" - Mike doubles on the long long time part).  Brian sings the cantina part.  Then Brian sings the lead himself.  It would have ticked me off to get jerked around like that on what was going to be the next single.

[MBE]

I like the Cantina version a lot but I miss the chorus. I think the song really needed that. I also think Heroes needed to start the same way as Do You Dig Worms. The only thing I really don't like about the song is that it starts cold. I like the mixes on Smiley and Wild Honey. Sure they are a little muddy but it fits the music.

[Jason]

Ahhhhhh, an H&V discussion that isn't ending with a THREAD.

Back in the days when I actually made fan mixes, I did a 13 minute H&V just for my own enjoyment. I pretty much used every usable section of the song, even throwing in some then-unbooted stuff. Sure, it'd never have happened in '67, but it had a swagger to it. I did it sort of like Mozart's unfinished Requiem, with all the dynamics involved. Then it got lost in a hard drive crash, much to my dismay. It was part of an entire album mix I had made at the time, which ran for almost one hour and forty minutes. I cannibalized hours of the SOTs to create fragments which I then stitched together using the incredibly clunky Windows Sound Recorder. The fact that it had any flow at all was miraculous. It was quite fun to listen to uninterrupted. Like I said before, never woulda been done back then, but it worked quite well IMO.