Compression and Clipping on TLOS - is it that bad?

[LostArt]

First of all, I want to say that I believe you folks that are hearing sound quality issues with the CD.  There are just too many folks reporting the problems for it not to be true.  However, I want you folks to understand that not everyone is hearing these issues.  I just went over to the Steve Hoffman board again, to see if I could dig up some negative comments about the sound quality of the album.  Any of you who are familiar with that board know that they are extremely critical about sonic issues.  One person mentioned brick-walling, and it is the only negative comment about the sonics that I could find as I quickly scanned the thread:

"Sadly, the mastering shows all signs of the usual brickwalling. Why?"

On the other hand, here are some positive comments that were made:

“It sounds really good to me.. You'd never know it was mastered by the same guy that slaughtered "Memory Almost Full." If MAF sounded more like this, I'd play it all the time.”

“Nice production as well I might add.”

“Scott Bennett does a great job on production and MD.”

“For a new release, the sonics are very good.”

“…the album sounds really good.”

“If the production sucked or if Brian's voice was bad I could probably comment on that but the production is actually good.”

“Personally, I find it very warm with a full presence, and the noteworthy use of real chamber reverb, courtesy of Capitol Studios, is very pleasing.”

“I can only give you my opinion and I think it sounds fantastic!
Compared to some other recent releases, the sound quality on TLOS would be considered stellar in my book!”

“It's 'punchy' compared to SMiLE - i.e., a little more modern sounding, a little bumped. But for a new album in 2008 it sounds amazing. A comparison with the new Verve album (same label, released a week earlier) is instructive. I really like the production on this record.”

[Andreas]

I just went over to the Steve Hoffman board again, to see if I could dig up some negative comments about the sound quality of the album.  Any of you who are familiar with that board know that they are extremely critical about sonic issues.  Not one person...not one...mentioned brick-walling, or harsh, or overly loud. 

You conveniently left out my (one sentence) comment.

[LostArt]

I just went over to the Steve Hoffman board again, to see if I could dig up some negative comments about the sound quality of the album.  Any of you who are familiar with that board know that they are extremely critical about sonic issues.  Not one person...not one...mentioned brick-walling, or harsh, or overly loud. 

You conveniently left out my (one sentence) comment.

I'm sorry if I missed a few.  Certainly not intentional.  I was scanning fairly quickly.  What was your (one sentence) comment, Andreas?  I'm curious as to what is going on here.  Why do some feel that this is the absolute worst mastering job on any CD, ever, while others are praising the sonics? 

EDIT: I have found the comment from Andreas...I have added it to my post above.

[Andreas]

I just went over to the Steve Hoffman board again, to see if I could dig up some negative comments about the sound quality of the album.  Any of you who are familiar with that board know that they are extremely critical about sonic issues.  Not one person...not one...mentioned brick-walling, or harsh, or overly loud. 

You conveniently left out my (one sentence) comment.

I'm sorry if I missed a few.  Certainly not intentional.  I was scanning fairly quickly.  What was your (one sentence) comment, Andreas?  I'm curious as to what is going on here.  Why do some feel that this is the absolute worst mastering job on any CD, ever, while others are praising the sonics? 

My comment was:

Sadly, the mastering shows all signs of the usual brickwalling. Why?

http://stevehoffman.tv/forums/showpost.php?p=3753508&postcount=600

The discussion is mostly about the material and Brian's solo carreer in general. I would guess that people on the Hoffman board are used to Bob Ludwig's brickwalling mastering style of the last years, so they see it already as an improvement if it is not as horrible as Memory Almost Full. But I can't imagine anyone praising the sonics. The piano in Midnight's Another Day distorts at every note, Brian's voice is processed and autotuned, and the drums sound too thin to be realistic as well.

[LostArt]

The discussion is mostly about the material and Brian's solo carreer in general. I would guess that people on the Hoffman board are used to Bob Ludwig's brickwalling mastering style of the last years, so they see it already as an improvement if it is not as horrible as Memory Almost Full. But I can't imagine anyone praising the sonics. The piano in Midnight's Another Day distorts at every note, Brian's voice is processed and autotuned, and the drums sound too thin to be realistic as well.

But that's the thing that I find strange here.  Some people are reporting these kinds of issues, and I really do believe them.  However, the piano in MAD does not distort on either of my copies.  I do hear some auto-tuning on Brian's voice.  That doesn't bother me as much as it does others.  The drums sound punchy and full on my copy.  Could there be mastering problems with some of the CDs, and not others?

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

That's what I'm thinking.

Man, if this is what being an audio expert does to you... I'm glad that I'm cloth-eared enough to know how fantastic this album is!

Amen.

Oddly enough, I think it sounds fine...and I have a degree in audio engineering, so what does that tell you?

[absinthe_boy]

And maybe a further variation could be that discs made in one plant were done with more care than discs made in another.

My brain hurts.

And Philips told us in 1982 that CD's were perfect, and all CDs of the same music were identical to each other. Can I sue?

Probably not cos I've  been banging on about how CDs are far from perfect ever since I learned how they are produced (circa 1989).

Still haven't heard TLOS on CD, but  have acquired an....um...unofficial...downolad....mp3....and it doesn't sound too bad, but the dynamic range isn't great and the vocals sound odd...the letter "k" in particular sticks out, and that is a common fault in digital mastering...at least to my ears...

Now...I need to ask myself is that a function of the presumably amateur ripped 192kbps MP3 or is it carried over from the CD?

I dunno. And I am not about to buy the CD to find out....especially as nobody in my town seems to actually be stocking it

[Andreas]

That's what I'm thinking.

Man, if this is what being an audio expert does to you... I'm glad that I'm cloth-eared enough to know how fantastic this album is!

Amen.

Oddly enough, I think it sounds fine...and I have a degree in audio engineering, so what does that tell you?

Why are you taking part in a discussion that does not interest you?

[Andreas]

But that's the thing that I find strange here.  Some people are reporting these kinds of issues, and I really do believe them.  However, the piano in MAD does not distort on either of my copies.  I do hear some auto-tuning on Brian's voice.  That doesn't bother me as much as it does others.  The drums sound punchy and full on my copy.  Could there be mastering problems with some of the CDs, and not others?

It might be that your system is more forgiving when it comes to harshness and aggressive upper midrange.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

That's what I'm thinking.

Man, if this is what being an audio expert does to you... I'm glad that I'm cloth-eared enough to know how fantastic this album is!

Amen.

Oddly enough, I think it sounds fine...and I have a degree in audio engineering, so what does that tell you?

Why are you taking part in a discussion that does not interest you?

A little harsh, aren't we? I didn't say the topic didn't interest me. Just the opposite, in fact. Where did I state otherwise?

[absinthe_boy]

Oddly enough, I think it sounds fine...and I have a degree in audio engineering, so what does that tell you?

That no amount of studying and certificates can make up for a poor ear?

Brian doesn't have any qualifications, but he sure knows how to produce a record. You may know what to do in order to end up with certain characteristics...but can your ears and brain distinguish between them?

Alternatively, it has been suggested that there are both good and bad CDs out there.

On the 192kbps rip that I have (remember I have the vinyl and this rip, not the CD...nobody near me stocks it!!!) the drums have no impact whatsoever. I can hear them, but they have no punch at all...they aren't actually any louder than the rest.

[LostArt]

But that's the thing that I find strange here.  Some people are reporting these kinds of issues, and I really do believe them.  However, the piano in MAD does not distort on either of my copies.  I do hear some auto-tuning on Brian's voice.  That doesn't bother me as much as it does others.  The drums sound punchy and full on my copy.  Could there be mastering problems with some of the CDs, and not others?

It might be that your system is more forgiving when it comes to harshness and aggressive upper midrange.

No, that's not it.  However, I'm glad that I am forgiving when it comes to verbal harshness and aggressive attitudes.  Which is why I will respectfully bow out of this conversation now without responding further. 

[Andreas]

It might be that your system is more forgiving when it comes to harshness and aggressive upper midrange.

No, that's not it.  However, I'm glad that I am forgiving when it comes to verbal harshness and aggressive attitudes.  Which is why I will respectfully bow out of this conversation now without responding further. 

I hope that is not aimed at me...?

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

No, that's not it.  However, I'm glad that I am forgiving when it comes to verbal harshness and aggressive attitudes.  Which is why I will respectfully bow out of this conversation now without responding further.

No poopy.  Didn't know I had a "poor ear". Maybe I should change my line of work then, huh?

[absinthe_boy]

No, that's not it.  However, I'm glad that I am forgiving when it comes to verbal harshness and aggressive attitudes.  Which is why I will respectfully bow out of this conversation now without responding further.

No poopy.  Didn't know I had a "poor ear". Maybe I should change my line of work then, huh?

Calm down, and read what I said.

[Dr. Tim]

Well I see the food fight continues.  And my brain still hurts.

(From hitting myself upside the head with discarded metal LP stampers)

Sometimes a better CD player (as well as a better system overall) could allow even the most brickwalled CDs to sound somewhat more musical than on, say, a Best Buy $100 mini-system.  Though the vehemence of the opinions here would suggest that doesn't explain the differences people are hearing.

Can anyone weigh in with a comparison of the brickwalled CD with the LP?  As I said earlier, my surmise is  they just took the Bob Ludwig digital master and rolled it off on top, then placed the side break.  But maybe I'm wrong and the LP got its own special mastering job like Mark Linett did for BWPS?   Do any of our insiders have any insight into that?

I'd say more but I'm too distracted by the ads for sex toys.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

No, that's not it.  However, I'm glad that I am forgiving when it comes to verbal harshness and aggressive attitudes.  Which is why I will respectfully bow out of this conversation now without responding further.

No poopy.  Didn't know I had a "poor ear". Maybe I should change my line of work then, huh?

Calm down, and read what I said.

My bad. Stressed out because my family & I evacuated for Hurricane Ike, and the damned thing is heading our way anyways as a Cat.3 storm.

[Leo K]

Can anyone weigh in with a comparison of the brickwalled CD with the LP?  As I said earlier, my surmise is  they just took the Bob Ludwig digital master and rolled it off on top, then placed the side break.  But maybe I'm wrong and the LP got its own special mastering job like Mark Linett did for BWPS?   Do any of our insiders have any insight into that?

I'd say more but I'm too distracted by the ads for sex toys.

The LP is mastered by another individual...I'm at work so I can't look up the name at the moment.


When I compare the CD and LP the difference is obvious...the LP has more dynamic range and detail..more open sound.

[sockittome]

...the letter "k" in particular sticks out,

Kaput?

[lance]

I finally got my copy yesterday(made in EU if there's a difference.) It really doesnt sound bad to me at all. It sounds fairly modern, but it doesn't hurt my ears the way my Platinum Collection Sounds of Summer does. I thought it sounded really nice.

[MusicLover]

I wish somebody would do a simple screendump from a program like Audacity to compare the different cd editions - and perhaps the vinyl too?



The above is a track on the new Metallica album - loud and compressed. No dynamics - apart from the intro!

The better (or more revealing) your hifi set-up the worse it will probably sound.

[Andreas]

I tried to post a picture, but always got an error message: "The upload folder is full".

[absinthe_boy]

California Role.




Morning Beat.

BTW those are from the 192kbps mp3 rip that I have. Might try to do the LP later to compare. I feel those are two quite different tracks. California Role should have lots of dynamics, whereas Morning Beat should be less dynamic...but moreso than the Metallica track above (which must be unlistenable). OK I know this is an mp3 rip, but the dynamics, whilst not the best, are OK.

[absinthe_boy]

(above) Midnight's Another Day....very nice

(below) Going Home. I said all along I preferred the live rendition. Maybe this is why?

[smile-holland]

I tried to post a picture, but always got an error message: "The upload folder is full".

hm, strange, I'll try to find out why...