The Beach Boys & the Ramones

[the captain]

I just wonder why you had to state that you played in a Ramones cover band in your previous post as if that gives your somewhat questionable opinion added credibility? You are bombing me with the resume stuff...I have no idea why. I do know a little something about the Beach Boys, and Spector and hey yeah even the Ramones too. I played in a band that was doing Ramones covers in 1978, I went to my first Ramones show in 1978...I saw them 6 times between 1978 and 1981. I met and talked to Joey and Johnny multiple times, I interviewed Dee Dee, I saw Rock and Roll High School the day it hit the theaters...do i win? Or does that just make me old. I'm not sure if any of that stuff...or who you wrote for, or how many books and articles i've written really mean anything here. Its just the opinion you stated, which was very clear...simple...to the point...we can all understand it...that opinion just made me say "you gotta be kidding?" You just blew off the fact that The Ramones have a serious BB's element to their sound and format as if its even arguable. Wow, and then the next guy mentions stripe shirts which clearly shows his context is waay off too...stripe shirts didn't happen until mid '64 dude...the Ramones lift came from the '62/'63 BB's(that's almost like confusing mod with rockabilly) ...but anyway...I'd surmise that any rock journalist, or fan that is well informed would not say what you did. Its like saying Oasis doesn't really have a Beatles vibe, they have a much greater Joe Meek vibe. huh? Sorry but it just stood out to me. I don't normally call people out on their opinions and i don't mean to be cranky...but that one really caught my attention.

While I seem to rarely (if ever) agree with your posts as far as musical tastes--too much Dennis for me--I sure did like this post (especially "Or does that just make me old"). There are plenty of people here distinguished in one way or another, and most are willing to leave their credentials at the door. That's cool of them. Others aren't. That's not cool of them.

[Sheriff John Stone]

I have no problem with shelter listing his credentials. First, they are interesting, and, second, they are directly related to his post/opinion. The guy writes for a magazine (and specializes in punk), and he played in a Ramones cover band. I'm glad he told us. It helps me know where he's coming from, and, yes, adds some creedence to his post(s).

What's wrong with finding out about a posters background, even if it comes from the poster himself. I think it adds something to the board. Luther, I never would've known you were reviewing CD's unless YOU told us - in one of YOUR posts. But I think that's cool, and, when you talk about today's music, well, I think you know what you're talking about because you're "in touch". And Jon, I have read numerous posts where you mentioned writing books, and about your personal relationships with "notables. I know a little bit about YOUR resume, and I found out about it somewhere. Probably here. Probably from you.

This board - and others - honors the authors and other "dignitaries" by putting the title Honored Guest after their name. Yeah, I know they didn't ask for it, but somebody finds it necessary to point it out. Some boards even have areas and/or threads where people talk about their personal interests and accomplishments. It's part of being a community. It's part of participating in a message board.

[Mark A. Moore]

I hear a little Beatles in Oasis, especially the second song on "Morning Glory." Not too familiar with their catalogue after that album, though.

As far as the striped-shirts go... well, I made the comment. Abd believe me, I can hear the Beach Boys influence on the Ramones. The latter covered the Beach Boys' version of "Do You Wanna Dance," there can be no doubt about that. But, well, "Surfin' Bird" and "California Sun" might be in the same genre as the Beach Boys (i.e. surf music), but they are more garage-band than the Beach Boys had been since the "Surfer Girl" LP. I can see the correlation between the Pendleton uniforms and the leather jackets worn by the Ramones... hell, just the idea of a uniform in general. I was only pointing out that the Ramones bear a striking resemblance to the rock 'n' roll rebel look of Dion, on an East Coast level.

Anyway, this is all stupid. Who can't hear equal parts Beach Boys and Phil Spector in the Ramones? It's a ridiculous notion. I think the discrepency here is that the Beach Boys came across more squeeky-clean in their early image.

Agreed . . . the Beach Boys influence is there (at least for Joey) . . . But the public persona of the Ramones is more closely aligned to Jan & Dean. That's one angle where Dave Marsh's early writings on J&D were really on the mark . . . though his comparisons were specifically to Iggy Stooge and Alice Cooper. The Ramones were later.

M.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Not to go off topic (from The Ramones) but another semi-punk rock group from that era did a Beach Boys-influenced album: The Dictators - Go Girl Crazy

[Jon Stebbins]

I have no problem with shelter listing his credentials. First, they are interesting, and, second, they are directly related to his post/opinion. The guy writes for a magazine (and specializes in punk), and he played in a Ramones cover band. I'm glad he told us. It helps me know where he's coming from, and, yes, adds some creedence to his post(s).

What's wrong with finding out about a posters background, even if it comes from the poster himself. I think it adds something to the board. Luther, I never would've known you were reviewing CD's unless YOU told us - in one of YOUR posts. But I think that's cool, and, when you talk about today's music, well, I think you know what you're talking about because you're "in touch". And Jon, I have read numerous posts where you mentioned writing books, and about your personal relationships with "notables. I know a little bit about YOUR resume, and I found out about it somewhere. Probably here. Probably from you.

This board - and others - honors the authors and other "dignitaries" by putting the title Honored Guest after their name. Yeah, I know they didn't ask for it, but somebody finds it necessary to point it out. Some boards even have areas and/or threads where people talk about their personal interests and accomplishments. It's part of being a community. It's part of participating in a message board.

What's wrong with finding out about a posters background? Hmmm...I guess you're right...that stuff can be interesting. Tell me about your background SJS...what's your name and where do you live? What is your profession? I'd like to know.

[shelter]

I just wonder why you had to state that you played in a Ramones cover band in your previous post as if that gives your somewhat questionable opinion added credibility? You are bombing me with the resume stuff...I have no idea why.

Dunno, maybe it's because you accused me of being not well informed?

I just don't like it when people say that my opinion is wrong. Cause it's my opinion. OK? We're not dealing with facts here, but opinions.

Jon, I really respect what you do. I think it's people like you, Andrew and all the other Honored Guests that make this board so interesting. It wouldn't be half as interesting without you guys. And I thought your book "The Lost Beach Boy" was excellent, I've recommended it to dozens of people as being a book that's interesting even if you're not a Beach Boys fan in particular. But I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree here.

[shelter]

I have no problem with shelter listing his credentials. First, they are interesting, and, second, they are directly related to his post/opinion. The guy writes for a magazine (and specializes in punk), and he played in a Ramones cover band. I'm glad he told us. It helps me know where he's coming from, and, yes, adds some creedence to his post(s).

Normally I wouldn't say it's relevant or even interesting what I do or what my background is, I just wanted to point out that I'm not uninformed when it comes to the Ramones. That's all.

[Jon Stebbins]

I have no problem with shelter listing his credentials. First, they are interesting, and, second, they are directly related to his post/opinion. The guy writes for a magazine (and specializes in punk), and he played in a Ramones cover band. I'm glad he told us. It helps me know where he's coming from, and, yes, adds some creedence to his post(s).

Normally I wouldn't say it's relevant or even interesting what I do or what my background is, I just wanted to point out that I'm not uninformed when it comes to the Ramones. That's all.

Yeah, and i could have mellowed out and not pounced on the whole thing...I'm just very passionate about both the BB's and Ramones(as I'm sure you are)...and the connection always seemed important to me. The Ramones  legitimized the BB's as a punk or garage pioneer...at a time when they were so uncool. I always said to people if you don't like the BB's then you don't like The Ramones...cause its practically the same thing except one is on speed. That connection is so ingrained in me, as a fan, that your post kind of ruffled my haircut. But no malice intended...I should have been more respectful of your opinion.

[brianc]

**except one is on speed.**

Which one?

Just kidding.

Jon, I'm sure you remember this well, but Rodney Bingenheimer went a long way towards making the connection between the Ramones and the Beach Boys in 1977. Listening back to his early KROQ programming, it's amazing the aesthetic that Rodney had. He would play something by the Ramones, then follow it with a schorcher by Phil Spector, a punk/garage cover of a Jan & Dean song, something by Blondie, a tune by Annette Funicello, a surf instrumental, maybe a Clash tune, something by the Rolling Stones from 1966 and on and on. Then, you know, Dennis Wilson might call in with Brian and Marilyn in the background. Rodney would ask them questions about the Sex Pistols and Ramones, and get Marilyn to talk about the new Honeys recordings. It was like a bloody wet dream, if I might intone British (for lack of cuss-word use).

[brianc]

And for the record, I'm glad you are passionate about the Ramones/Beach Boys connection, Jon. I think that that connection is what gives a lot of weight to the Dave Marks years, as well as cool tracks like "Shut Down," "Denny's Drums" and "Carl's Big Chance." I've always said that 1963 seems to have been a pinnacle year in Los Angeles.

[Jon Stebbins]

**except one is on speed.**

Which one?

Just kidding.

Jon, I'm sure you remember this well, but Rodney Bingenheimer went a long way towards making the connection between the Ramones and the Beach Boys in 1977. Listening back to his early KROQ programming, it's amazing the aesthetic that Rodney had. He would play something by the Ramones, then follow it with a schorcher by Phil Spector, a punk/garage cover of a Jan & Dean song, something by Blondie, a tune by Annette Funicello, a surf instrumental, maybe a Clash tune, something by the Rolling Stones from 1966 and on and on. Then, you know, Dennis Wilson might call in with Brian and Marilyn in the background. Rodney would ask them questions about the Sex Pistols and Ramones, and get Marilyn to talk about the new Honeys recordings. It was like a bloody wet dream, if I might intone British (for lack of cuss-word use).

I listened to Rodney during those days religiously...actually starting in '78 when I moved to L.A. ...you did a great job describing it. Nothing like it now outside of Little Steven's show...and there was a good one on a San Jose station for a long time...lots of garage stuff. But yeah, Rodney's was the most eclectic of all...and it was current with punk and new wave stuff, but had great respect for '50's and '60's records as well. I can hear the first notes of This Could Be The Night coming through, throw down the Bomp magazine, grab a beer and crank the radio.

[brianc]

I absolutely hated the Rodney documentary for reasons too many to mention, but the biggest being that he was portrayed as someone who needed validation through celebrity interviews, when the only end-point was to bury him as some pathetic character. Whatever his personal drawbacks, the man's DJ-ing skills have always struck me as incredibly optimistic.

The vibe of his radio show during punk and new wave was by no means captured on the screen, and that's a shame.

[the captain]

Nothing like it now outside of Little Steven's show...and there was a good one on a San Jose station for a long time...lots of garage stuff. But yeah, Rodney's was the most eclectic of all...and it was current with punk and new wave stuff, but had great respect for '50's and '60's records as well.

Actually the pop public radio station in Minneapolis/St. Paul is pretty amazing in that regard: you can hear Thelonious Monk followed by Arcade Fire followed by '80s Bruce Springsteen followed by '70s Bowie followed by Outkast followed by the Hollies. It skews toward modern indie pop, but not too heavily. It's amazing. Minnesota Public Radio, 89.3 "The Current." It streams live online. Tons of archived live performances, too.

No, I don't work for them. But I am a member to MPR because of how amazing it is.

Now back to the point of the topic...sorry for the interruption.

[49ersphil]

[
Actually the pop public radio station in Minneapolis/St. Paul is pretty amazing in that regard: you can hear Thelonious Monk followed by Arcade Fire followed by '80s Bruce Springsteen followed by '70s Bowie followed by Outkast followed by the Hollies. It skews toward modern indie pop, but not too heavily. It's amazing. Minnesota Public Radio, 89.3 "The Current." It streams live online. Tons of archived live performances, too.

No, I don't work for them. But I am a member to MPR because of how amazing it is.

Now back to the point of the topic...sorry for the interruption.

I just looked up their daily playlist and there's some nice stuff in there.
I'll be streaming it from time to time. 

[shelter]

cause its practically the same thing except one is on speed.

Well, I guess it depends on how you look at it. I'll admit that it's not hard to imagine I Get Around, Fun Fun Fun or Surfin' USA as Ramones songs. I can see songs like those as being influencial to the Ramones sound. But on the other hand, how would you describe the (early) Beach Boys sound? Words that come to my mind are warm, rich, layered, positive, sunny, hopeful... I don't think any of these descriptions apply to the Ramones' sound. Their music is definately late 50s/early 60s music on speed, I just can't really hear a particular Beach Boys vibe.

[Roger Ryan]

I think the influence was there from the beginning, but as the Ramones became more sophisticated in their songwriting and arranging (I know that sounds impossible!), more direct allusions to the Beach Boys became apparent. "Sheena Is A Punk Rocker" certainly owes something to "Little Honda" (especially with "Go!" shouted at the beginning); on their last album the song "Touring" directly borrows from "Drive-In"; we've already mentioned "Do You Remember Rock And Roll Radio?" (influenced by "Do You Remember?") along with the "Surf City" and "Surfin' Safari" covers. All of these were probably brought to the band by Joey, but then he contributed about half the songwriting during the band's career.

[shelter]

All of these were probably brought to the band by Joey, but then he contributed about half the songwriting during the band's career.

Half? More like one-fourth... Dee Dee was the main songwriter.

[Roger Ryan]

All of these were probably brought to the band by Joey, but then he contributed about half the songwriting during the band's career.

Half? More like one-fourth... Dee Dee was the main songwriter.

Definitely not 1/4 during the entire career. It's true that the songwriting was split fairly evenly during the first three albums (the credits simply list "The Ramones" as the songwriters) with Tommy contributing quite a bit along with Dee Dee and Joey. But once the band started crediting individual Ramones with songwriting (see PLEASANT DREAMS for example) Joey gets about equal songwriting credits with Dee Dee. Once Dee Dee leaves the band as a performer, Joey takes over the majority of the songwriting (although Dee Dee still contributes quite a few songs per album even though he is no longer in the group). Adding up all the known credits from the debut record through ADIOS AMIGOS, I think it's more than fair to say that Joey contributed about half the material.

[brianc]

There's a subway desperation to the Ramones that never went away, but I also think their music is incredibly optimistic. The West Coast warmth on the Beach Boys is just a reflection of their environment. But the uniformed garage band putting their gear in the back of a station wagon vibe was there for the Ramones, as well as the Beach Boys, pre-1964.

[shelter]

Adding up all the known credits from the debut record through ADIOS AMIGOS, I think it's more than fair to say that Joey contributed about half the material.

Number of songs that Joey wrote:

Ramones (1976): wrote 2, co-wrote 1 out of 14
Leave Home (1977): wrote 5, co-wrote 1 + 2 credited to 'the band' out of 14
Rocket To Russia (1977): wrote 4 + 4 credited to 'the band' out of 14
Road To Ruin (1978): wrote 3 + 2 credited to 'the band' out of 12
End of the Century (1980): wrote 4 + 4 credited to 'the band' out of 12
Pleasant Dreams (1981): wrote 7 out of 12
Subterranean Jungle (1983): wrote 3 out of 12
Too Tough To Die (1984): wrote 1, co-wrote 2 out of 13
Animal Boy (1986): wrote 2, co-wrote 2 out of 12
Halfway To Sanity (1987): wrote 3 out of 12
Brain Drain (1989): wrote 3, co-wrote 3 out of 12
Mondo Bizarro (1992): wrote 3, co-wrote 4 out of 14
Adios Amigos (1995): wrote 2 out of 13

[Roger Ryan]

Yeah, like I said...about half the material 

Seriously, thanks for documenting that since I didn't bother actually doing it myself. I tend to think that Joey was primarily responsible for recommending the various cover songs the band did throughout their career, so that particular influence was strong. I would actually agree that the Spector girl-group, garage band sound from the late 60s was just as important to the Ramones (if not more so) than the Beach Boys influence, but that BB influence is still there and I think that's primarily due to Joey and not the others.

[brianc]

On the bonus interview clips from the "End of the Century" DVD, Dee Dee says that he and Joey used to sit around before the Ramoes started, and they'd listen to the Beach Boys.

[Aegir]

Couldn't it be said that the Spector girl-group sound influenced the Beach Boys? So if you're hearing that in the Ramones sound, it might be a Beach Boys influence anyway.