The Dennis/Mike stage fight incident

[Jonas]

You know what ticks me off to no end? When somebody reprints a section(like this guy did above) from my Dennis Wilson biography titled The Real Beach Boy(ECW Press 2000) and doesn't have the courtesy to credit me, or even mention the book. That's a sorry thing. It shows no class, and its illegal. Peter Carlin did this to me in his book, and never made it right. I really hate it. You gotta credit your sources if you're copying them word for word.

Ya know, maybe instead of making this a public spectacle you can PM him yourself and discuss it with him. Beach Boy is a cool guy and a solid member of this community and perhaps it was a human error on his part that he is willing to rectify if you'd ask him to.

[endofposts]

You know what ticks me off to no end? When somebody reprints a section(like this guy did above) from my Dennis Wilson biography titled The Real Beach Boy(ECW Press 2000) and doesn't have the courtesy to credit me, or even mention the book. That's a sorry thing. It shows no class, and its illegal. Peter Carlin did this to me in his book, and never made it right. I really hate it. You gotta credit your sources if you're copying them word for word.

Ya know, maybe instead of making this a public spectacle you can PM him yourself and discuss it with him. Beach Boy is a cool guy and a solid member of this community and perhaps it was a human error on his part that he is willing to rectify if you'd ask him to.

But I think Jon wants everyone to know that he wrote it, and it calls more attention to that fact if he posts that under his own name, rather than having the OP say, "Oh, BTW, Jon Stebbins PM'd me and told me that I used a huge chunk of his writing without attribution."  I knew it was from Jon's book when I read it, but I own it.  Since it's gone out of print, you have to pay a lot of money to buy it used (I only wish I'd taken better care of mine).  So, no, a lot of people won't realize it's Jon's work, because you can't buy it easily now.   It would be nice to see it back in print. 

[Peter Ames Carlin]

[/quote]

You know what ticks me off to no end? When somebody reprints a section(like this guy did above) from my Dennis Wilson biography titled The Real Beach Boy(ECW Press 2000) and doesn't have the courtesy to credit me, or even mention the book. That's a sorry thing. It shows no class, and its illegal. Peter Carlin did this to me in his book, and never made it right. I really hate it. You gotta credit your sources if you're copying them word for word.
[/quote]

I only just saw this, from a few days ago. For the record I'd just like to say that this is total b.s.

If I remember correctly, Jon wrote me about a year ago wondering why a particular quote of Dennis's (I can't remember which one, maybe the one about them being Brian's messengers, or about his never having gotten to know his brothers except through music) came from one of his interviews. And maybe it did. And maybe someone else paraphrased his original quote in some other article or book I did see. Or maybe Dennis said it more than once. This happens all the time. I've interviewed tons of people, famous and not, ove the last 22 years and heard them say stuff to me, seemingly spontaneously. Only to see it turn up word-for-word in other interviews. Some published subsequently. Are they plagiarizing me? Or did the quotee actually say the same frickin thing? Probably the latter. People tend to do that....say stuff more than once. And life goes on.

But when it comes to plagiarizing Jon, here's a crucial point: I'VE NEVER READ HIS BOOK.  Never picked it up. Never held it in my hand. Never read a single sentence of it. Which makes it hard, nay, impossible, for me to plagiarize it. Which he knows, or should know, because we had this exact coversation via private email about a year ago. Apparently, it didn't sink in.

Another thing that apparently hasn't sunk into Jon's cranium is that plagiarism is a serious offense.  And if you're going to accuse someone of it publicly, you damn sure better have your facts straight. In this case, Jon offers no facts whatsoever. Just asserts, baldly and in public, that I plagiarized him. Then he goes on to make a point about what is and isn't classy among writers. Nice, very nice.

Maybe this seems like total nonsense and small potatoes. But, trust me on this, professional writers take this sort of thing really seriously.

[Jonas]

Since it's gone out of print, you have to pay a lot of money to buy it used (I only wish I'd taken better care of mine).  So, no, a lot of people won't realize it's Jon's work, because you can't buy it easily now.   It would be nice to see it back in print. 

I know, I wish it was back in print, I found a copy for it for $100+ but I said F-that! I look forward to a new edition.

[Jon Stebbins]

You know what ticks me off to no end? When somebody reprints a section(like this guy did above) from my Dennis Wilson biography titled The Real Beach Boy(ECW Press 2000) and doesn't have the courtesy to credit me, or even mention the book. That's a sorry thing. It shows no class, and its illegal. Peter Carlin did this to me in his book, and never made it right. I really hate it. You gotta credit your sources if you're copying them word for word.
[/quote]

I only just saw this, from a few days ago. For the record I'd just like to say that this is total b.s.

If I remember correctly, Jon wrote me about a year ago wondering why a particular quote of Dennis's (I can't remember which one, maybe the one about them being Brian's messengers, or about his never having gotten to know his brothers except through music) came from one of his interviews. And maybe it did. And maybe someone else paraphrased his original quote in some other article or book I did see. Or maybe Dennis said it more than once. This happens all the time. I've interviewed tons of people, famous and not, ove the last 22 years and heard them say stuff to me, seemingly spontaneously. Only to see it turn up word-for-word in other interviews. Some published subsequently. Are they plagiarizing me? Or did the quotee actually say the same frickin thing? Probably the latter. People tend to do that....say stuff more than once. And life goes on.

But when it comes to plagiarizing Jon, here's a crucial point: I'VE NEVER READ HIS BOOK.  Never picked it up. Never held it in my hand. Never read a single sentence of it. Which makes it hard, nay, impossible, for me to plagiarize it. Which he knows, or should know, because we had this exact coversation via private email about a year ago. Apparently, it didn't sink in.

Another thing that apparently hasn't sunk into Jon's cranium is that plagiarism is a serious offense.  And if you're going to accuse someone of it publicly, you damn sure better have your facts straight. In this case, Jon offers no facts whatsoever. Just asserts, baldly and in public, that I plagiarized him. Then he goes on to make a point about what is and isn't classy among writers. Nice, very nice.

Maybe this seems like total nonsense and small potatoes. But, trust me on this, professional writers take this sort of thing really seriously.

[/quote]

A few days ago? I just posted my comment this morning. Professional writer? So what am I, a tuna can? Anyway, The quote isn't either of the obviously well known ones you mentioned that have appeared everywhere, those would be obvious to most fans on this board. The quote is the one that reads something along the lines of, "Everything I am or will ever be is in the music. If you want to know me just listen." Anyone with a decent BB's IQ will know this DW quote unlike the ones you mentioned is not ubiquitous in BB's literature. Its a direct quote that Dennis gave me face to face.  When I asked you for your source for the quote you couldn't come up with one. And I let it go. But does that mean I can never mention it again til the end of time? Do I have to stay silent that a great quote that I garnered from Dennis appeared in your book uncredited to me? Is there a People magazine code of honor that I have not followed? You are very clear you didn't see it in my book, which I'm truly sorry you've never read...you've emphasized that part nicely, both to me personally and here...very very clear, yes you have not read it. I don't question that.  Lets move on. Just tell me... where did you get the quote? I'd like to know the answer to that for a very obvious reason... because it is a key quote, and it appears in your book, and is not attributed to my research...so who loaned the quote to you? Or...where did you see it in print? That's a pretty clear cut thing right? I'm not asking for the moon. I just want to know where you got it. Maybe Dennis said it all the time...sure...and maybe I'm the only one who used the quote he said all the time until you did. Just let me know where you got the quote from. If your answer is still "I don't know" then I can comment on it all I want, which has been maybe once or twice in two years. Total BS...I doubt that.  You told me you'd credit me in future printings, I don't see any change in the paperback version. Maybe you forgot that, or were powerless or changed your mind, doesn't matter. Badman also used chunks of my book with no credit, maybe he didn't read it too. Research gets passed along, maybe that passage above from my book will get credited to Smiley Smile Board in someone's book, or to the poster. I'm putting on the record that it really hurts when people use your words or research and don't give credit. It hurts even more when it happens in one or two widely read BB's books.  I'd like to see people do the best they can at giving credit where credit is due. And if they can't do that then they need to have a very good excuse. Am I out of line? My cranium is relatively absorbent.

[Peter Ames Carlin]

Jon: I hope this is even remotely entertaining for anyone else, if not, I hope they move on quickly. And yet I'll run this through in public this one time, and leave well enough alone.

1. Yes, that was the quote. Thanks for refreshing my memory. You're correct when you propose I might not have had an opportunity to alter the text for the paperback. I was pretty well out of the loop when that was being put together. Next thing I knew a box of them were sitting on my porch.

2. Would I have put in the attribution if I'd had a chance to go through everything? Certainly. Note how I attribute quotes throughout the 366-page text. When I had a direct attribution for a quote, I used it.

3. And yet, some books and/or articles featured quotations that were clearly not given directly to the author (who might have been writing years or decades beyond the point the quote was made or the quot-ee had died), but also had no attribution. At which point my options seemed limited.

4. Which had to have been the case for the aforementioned Dennis quote.

5. Where I got it? That's still a puzzle to me. I actually spent an hour or two digging through my files and books last summer, and couldn't come up with it then. Now, more than a year after that (and nearly two years since I finished the project) all that information is even farther from my recall. I honestly don't know what to tell you. It obviously came from somewhere. But barring me opening up all my boxes, re-reading every word of everything I read to prepare 'Catch A Wave,' I can't tell you for sure.

6.  Do I sound like Alberto Gonzalez right now? Maybe so. The old, 'I can't recall' excuse, eh? I've heard that one before, too. It always sounds lame, and this time around is no exception.

7. So I take you back to the rest of 'CAW.' Turn to any page. Look for the quotes. Do the vast majority of un-original quotations come with attribution? I believe so. Has any other writer or resource complained about my ripping them off, somehow? Not to me. Ask anyone else, I talked to a lot of writers. Leaf; Reum; Dave Marsh; Tim White (who wasn't in a position to complain when 'CAW' came out, but still); Jules Siegel; Priore; more and more. I read their books, I gleaned what I could and gave credit where it was due. And I haven't heard a single complaint from any of them.

8. The only person I consciously chose NOT to attribute every single time was me, simply because I think it's tiresome to read, "so-and-so told me," over and over and over again.

9. Also tiresome: pounding out such defensive screeds in forums like this. I'm sorry you came away from 'CAW' feeling abused. I'm sorry I failed to resolve this mystery. Sorrier still if that makes me seem like a weasel. I hope that, when viewed in context, the unclear antecedent for those dozen or so words doesn't make the whole 110,000-word enterprise seem entirely suspect. Really, it isn't.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

For anyone reading this and is new to the board, or BB fandom for that matter, I 100% recommend both authors' BB books, regardless of who got what from whom. That said, lemme step aside. Play nicely,please....

[Jay]

Not that I'm taking sides, but Mr. Stebbins seems to be forgetting that DENNIS WILSON made the comment in question. Just because the comment was made in Mr Stebbin's presence, doesn't mean that Mr Stebbins owns the quote. At least as far as I know, regarding the legal copyright side of it.

[Mike]

 This just again proves to me that the Beach Boys were the world's most dysfunctional band, their fans were just as bad, and now the tellers of their story are no better. 

[Jonas]

This just again proves to me that the Beach Boys were the world's most dysfunctional band, their fans were just as bad, and now the tellers of their story are no better. 

Love it!!! 

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

 

[Dave in KC]

Writers now fighting, who's next Carnie and Wendy? Anyway, I too loved both books. I am willing to part with my The Real Beach Boy book which is in pristine condition. For the kind of bucks being talked about anyway! Make me an offer.

[shelter]

Not that I'm taking sides, but Mr. Stebbins seems to be forgetting that DENNIS WILSON made the comment in question. Just because the comment was made in Mr Stebbin's presence, doesn't mean that Mr Stebbins owns the quote.

My thoughts exactly.

A quote is (or at least should be) 'property' of the person that made the comment, not the person that wrote it down. I write for a Dutch rock magazine so I've done a lot of interviews that have been published, but I don't think I 'own' any of the quotes in those interviews.

But if anyone would steal one of my questions, he'd have a big problem, obviously... 

[Beach Boy]

You know what ticks me off to no end? When somebody reprints a section(like this guy did above) from my Dennis Wilson biography titled The Real Beach Boy(ECW Press 2000) and doesn't have the courtesy to credit me, or even mention the book. That's a sorry thing. It shows no class, and its illegal. Peter Carlin did this to me in his book, and never made it right. I really hate it. You gotta credit your sources if you're copying them word for word.

I didn't know it was from your book (I don't have it actually). I took it from a private message I got several months ago. Sorry.

[Jon Stebbins]

Not that I'm taking sides, but Mr. Stebbins seems to be forgetting that DENNIS WILSON made the comment in question. Just because the comment was made in Mr Stebbin's presence, doesn't mean that Mr Stebbins owns the quote. At least as far as I know, regarding the legal copyright side of it.

How could I forget it was Dennis Wilson who gave me that reply to a direct question? It had a huge impact on me and thanks to Dennis gave me a better understanding of his humanity. For all the things said about Dennis, he was a master at communicating directly and of finding a way to cut through the meaningless patter... where you not only HEAR what he's saying but you FEEL it. That quote is a great example of Dennis at his best. His music was his emotional fingerprint. Unique, vulnerable, personal...it was him. I understood that when he answered me that day. And I saved it, thought about it for years, and finally put it into context when i wrote the book. To say I'm forgetting that i don't "own" the quote is a shallow statement. I never said that I did. Any time a writer uses a previously published quote in a commercial book they need to state the source they got the quote from. This isn't exactly a new rule. It has nothing to do with the writer "owning" the quote. It has to do with crediting sources. I know this quote had not appeared anywhere other than my book and then six years later in Peter's book(but with no attribution). Peter didn't read my book, he found the quote somewhere else. My question was... where? He can't answer that. Hence the example of our fellow poster "Beach Boy" using a long passage from my book with no credit given. This is exactly how BS like this happens. That was my point.

[Mark H.]

Credit as the source of a quote everytime it is used on a message board? 

So should we credit Jules Seigal, Tom Nolan, David Leaf, take your pick everytime we reference something Brian Wilson said?  Because for 99.9% of us....we only know what they said because someone quoted them.   Most of us are not professional writers and this not really a scholarly pursuit, I don't think you can expect those standards to apply in this setting.  That's a fact of life with the internet.

Thanks for derailing the thread.

[Jon Stebbins]

Credit as the source of a quote everytime it is used on a message board? 

So should we credit Jules Seigal, Tom Nolan, David Leaf, take your pick everytime we reference something Brian Wilson said?  Because for 99.9% of us....we only know what they said because someone quoted them.   Most of us are not professional writers and this not really a scholarly pursuit, I don't think you can expect those standards to apply in this setting.  That's a fact of life with the internet.

Thanks for derailing the thread.

Hi Mark,
Yes, thanks for derailing the thread...exactly. I can be excellent at that because the minutia means something to me. The orig. motivation for this derailment(prior to Peter's comments)was a direct reprinting of a large passage from my book...agreed? This was not a quote from Dennis, but a lengthy written section by me detailing the Dennis/Mike fight from my own personal viewing of the incident while sitting among Audree and the Wilson family in 1979. Page 190 -191 in Dennis Wilson - The Real Beach Boy, glad we could all enjoy it. I commented that it hurts to see it reprinted word for word with absolutely no mention or credit of where it came from. Maybe that doesn't bug you at all, you had no interest in whose account of that incident you were reading....but I have every right to mention that it bugs me. Message board yeah...no big deal except on this particular thread everybody is asking if anybody knows the exact story about the Dennis/ Mike fight at Universal etc...then a guy comes along and slaps the answer on the board...great. He not only answered it correctly, but he used my answer, my words, and I'd have been happy to get the credit. Plus its a good book and puts the incident into context, a context which only a few here have grasped, and maybe by crediting the source someone will go and read it and then one more person will have some nice context to draw from when deciding if Mike was the good guy, or DW was the prick or whatever. But still if that all seems like too much trouble to even consider I can understand...you didn't spend years writing the book. Why should you care if someone reprints the whole damn thing and says Dick Reising wrote it? I have a different perspective and I mean no disrespect to the forum or anyone else...just airing my view. I also mentioned the DW quote appearing uncredited in Peter's book as an example of when this type of thing happens in a major book it ticks me off even more, and its happened to me more than once. Again I doubt its happened to anyone else here(except Craig!)...but it kind of stings when it does. Then Peter jumped in, and on and on she goes dumbeedoobah. . Oh, and thanks for giving me the inside scoop on the internet, I appreciate that.

[Mark H.]

I'm sorry I'm not all that offended on your behalf with regard to the message board quote; however,  I agree that credit should be given for original material when possible.  I think the moderator's suggestion was appropriate.  I doubt I could teach anyone anything about the internet.

BTW....I did buy the book a few years ago and enjoyed it very much.  As a result of this I think I'll pull it from the shelf and read it again.

[the captain]

I don't believe the fact that we're on a message board absolves anyone regarding quotations. Obviously I don't know or care to get into his and Mr. Carlin's dispute, but anyone who is going to take the time to post--verbatim--from someone else's work can certainly take 30 more seconds to type who said it, and where. I don't think that's a lot to ask, and it isn't as if we'll require stylebook-compliant citation formats or bibliographies. Just something like "Luther's book said 'Mike Love wears super-nice trousers'" is better than nothing.

I don't mean this to be pointed to the poster who initiated this, by the way. I just mean it as a general note to all. I believe AGD may have brought up similar issues before,* and I'm sure it could come up again.


*I cannote cite the specific quotes, or threads. Sorry! Who knows, I may just be nuts and inventing that.

[Peter Ames Carlin]

I'll weigh in here for one final go-round, just to note that I just did the obvious thing, which is what I should have done last summer when Jon first emailed me and I couldn't find the quote anywhere in my notes: I googled 'Dennis Wilson' linked to 'If you want to know me' and took a look at some of the hundred or so citations that popped up. The quote turns up on Wikipedia.org, without attribution (though Jon's book is noted as a resource at the bottom of the page). It's also on the Dennis bio on reference.bio.com, without attribution. It's also on the answers.com bio of Dennis, also without attribution.

Which leads me to suspect quite strongly that I saw the quote on one or more of those sites, probably just as I was writing the section in question, and seeing no attribution, dropped it in without a citation.

Which begs the question: is it wrong for a writer (such as me) to do such a thing? Everyone can judge for themselves, I suppose. But I don't think so. There's a huge gulf between swiping a writer's words and phrases unattributed and using a quote from an interview subject. As someone already noted, those are Dennis's words, not Jon's. And though we can all give it up to an interviewer who can elicit such a vivid response, the obligation for a subsequent writer to source such a brief quote depends on the context.

I see quotes from my stories and books popping up here and there...at least I THINK they're from my stories....and it just seems like part of the ballgame. I see entire articles I've written cut and pasted onto websitse without so much as a by-your-leave, let alone a nod to copyright laws. And so it goes.

You know when Bob Dylan described his sound...the one he's always pursuing, anyway, as 'That thin, wild mercury sound'? You see that everywhere now, credited solely to Dylan. But did you know that it came out of Ron Rosenbaum's Playboy interview with Dylan in '78 or so? Probably not. But I do n't think Rosenbaum cares (though he certainly does like to point out that HE was the guy who dug out that quote) because what truly matters isn't that he asked a good question, but that Dylan coughed up such an indelible answer.  Now it's like part of the scenery in Bob Land. Todd Snider, the great mod folk singer, has a lovely song on his latest cd about the mythical blow-up between Dylan and Phil Ochs. The title: "Thin, Wild Mercury." No credit to Rosenbaum. Or to Dylan, for that matter. And I doubt either one of them care.

[Jon Stebbins]

"But to live outside the law, you must be honest"
- Zimmerman, 1966

[Beach Boy]

I hope nobody is angry with me?

The story went like this:

I read, ironical, Peter Ames Carlin book and I wondered that Dennis and Mike fought in 1981 (because they seemed to don't hate each other in my 1981 video footages) so I asked one member of a german message board about this and he told me it was 1979, though I read recently from Ian Rusten's great posts on angelfire.com that they actually had a struggle in summer of 1981. Anyway some people know that I'm a huge fan of the LA and KTSA era so I saved the quote from my personal messages on my hard drive but just the Mike Meros words, so maybe in this pm the guy wrote that it was from the "Real Beach Boy" book but I forgot? Or he didn't mention it, I really don't know. I even wanted to give credit to this guy for giving me this interview but I didn't know if he would've liked it. I understand Mr Stebbins of course. For example if one friend of mine is telling my joke I always say for fun "Don't steal my joke, mate!". 

Sorry for the confusion, Peter

[Jon Stebbins]

I hope nobody is angry with me?

The story went like this:

I read, ironical, Peter Ames Carlin book and I wondered that Dennis and Mike fought in 1981 (because they seemed to don't hate each other in my 1981 video footages) so I asked one member of a german message board about this and he told me it was 1979, though I read recently from Ian Rusten's great posts on angelfire.com that they actually had a struggle in summer of 1981. Anyway some people know that I'm a huge fan of the LA and KTSA era so I saved the quote from my personal messages on my hard drive but just the Mike Meros words, so maybe in this pm the guy wrote that it was from the "Real Beach Boy" book but I forgot? Or he didn't mention it, I really don't know. I even wanted to give credit to this guy for giving me this interview but I didn't know if he would've liked it. I understand Mr Stebbins of course. For example if one friend of mine is telling my joke I always say for fun "Don't steal my joke, mate!". 

Sorry for the confusion, Peter

You are obviously a fine gentleman and meant no disrespect. Thanks for caring enough to clarify the chain of events.

Back to the thread. There has long been varied versions, locations and times reported for this Dennis/Mike altercation. I suspect it happened similarly more than once with one tangle bleeding into the next in people's memories. David Leaf certainly wrote about one such incident...as did Stephen Gaines. However, The one I witnessed happened as described at the Universal Amphitheater, I have the ticket stub(somewhere)...and it was mentioned in the L.A. Times in the days after. But apparently, according to some,  there was a similar incident at the Greek Theater around the same time'79 or '80. I think by '81 there were too many bodyguards and minders on board to let anything close to this happen again.  But Dennis and Mike already had a long, long, long history of fist fights starting in 1963 according to Dave Marks.

[c-man]

The Greek Theatre incident was July '81, according to a report published in Creem that fall.  The report was that Dennis & Mike "had a bloody fistfight" backstage.  There was a review of that show in Billboard at the time, and it noted Brian's erratic behavior (punching his microphone when it gave him feedback, and stalking offstage in the middle of singing "God Only Knows", forcing Al Jardine to pick up the lead vocal).  Brian soon returned.  The review mentioned that Dennis was so hoarse he could barely speak, but that he kept giving Brian a "stroking" all night. 

My guess is Mike blamed Dennis (rightly, perhaps) for giving Brian drugs before the show, and that's what started the "bloody fistfight".  But that's just a guess.  I believe this was a few months before Dennis met Shawn, so that wouldn't be the reason (not that Mike probably cared about Dennis being with Shawn, 'cause he didn't admit to being her dad).

[Jay]

Dennis had to have met Shawn earlier than that. At the July 5th, 1981 show in Long Beach, Dennis shouted out "I love Shawn!" during "Help Me Rhonda". On a related note, I'm surprised that Mike didn't beat the living sh*t out of Dennis on that occasion.